00:00:00.900 - 00:00:31.720

So could you just tell me a little bit about the first time you visited Greenham? Well, I was living in Leamington Spa there then, which is a lot more radical and academic than Bambury, I can tell you. And so I got involved then because there was like a women's group and also I'd started the first women's... There was a magazine called Spare Rib and they were asking people to start up women's groups.

00:00:32.460 - 00:00:57.780

So I advertised in it and had one at my... Well, I wasn't living there then because I used to live on a boat, which is another story, but I ended up with a canal-side cottage. So a lot of really nice women came out of nowhere and had meetings at my house and it was mainly just chattering and laughing, you know. So that was very interesting. It was right at the beginning, you know.

00:00:58.280 - 00:01:20.160

And people were sort of worried about telling their husbands about it or anything. Really? Yes, because people were really frightened that the women would stop wearing make-up and all this, you know, change. Which, of course, they did, you know, but there was a lot of that going on at that time, which also reflected on the camp as well, I think.

00:01:20.160 - 00:01:38.500

Because they did have some marriage break-ups, you know, I've heard, and problems because of it. But most of the men were so supportive, staying at home and doing everything, weren't they? Yeah. But I do know, I've heard, that there were partnership and marriage break-ups because of it, you know.

00:01:38.520 - 00:01:54.860

Gosh. Which is a shame, isn't it? Yeah. So was the purpose of the group to advertise through Spare Rib to get people to go to Greenham? A women's, what do they call it? No, it wasn't to do with Greenham. It was just when all this was in the air, you know.

00:01:55.180 - 00:02:05.500

Nobody mentioned Greenham then. I think it was probably just before. What year was Greenham? I'm going to embarrass myself now in the recording. Eighty... Two?

00:02:06.200 - 00:02:20.560

Three? I had 83 in my mind. Yeah, about that, 82, 83. It could have been just before when Spare Rib came out, I don't know. That's for you to find out, so I don't know that.

00:02:21.780 - 00:02:44.880

But then was it with that women's group that you first went to Greenham Common? No, no, it wasn't with them at all, no, because that sort of fizzled out after a few weeks. And then I moved to Leamington, that's right. And immediately there was Friends of the Earth, CNT, a women's cafe, there were all sorts of things like that there.

00:02:45.740 - 00:03:05.640

So I know there was one woman, I can't remember her name, she was called Victoria something, and she was the mother of one of my daughter's friends, and she said, if anyone has to go to prison, I'm going to put myself forward because I haven't got small children. And I always remember that. Her name was Victoria, but she was quite a bit older than me.

00:03:05.640 - 00:03:27.560

And I did ask my friend in Leamington, she was not interested anymore, she didn't know. But I thought that was quite amazing. And then it was at the same time as the miners' support thing going on as well, so I was in the miners'. My daughter got arrested. They charged down Whitehall one night on the horses.

00:03:27.800 - 00:03:40.080

Did you ever hear about that? No, I've never heard about that. After one of the demonstrations, she was picked up by this policeman, very roughly, thrown in the back of the van. I mean, she was black and blue.

00:03:41.260 - 00:03:48.880

And she kept saying, I'm not doing it, I'm not doing it. And he said, shut up or we're going to plant some drugs on you. I know. Oh my gosh.

00:03:48.940 - 00:04:14.680

And the rumour had gone along the line of people that Heather had been, that was my daughter, arrested and some other people. My son was there and he said it took him until 10 o'clock at night, phoning and talking until he found out where she was. And she was at Bow Street police station and he actually managed to get her released. And she never went on any demonstrations again after that.

00:04:14.920 - 00:04:30.500

She was black and blue and very frightened. I think it was a horrible experience, you know, really horrible. It sounds terrible. So it then made me think how some of the women might have been treated at Greenham, I don't know.

00:04:30.960 - 00:04:43.760

I never come across anybody that said that, you know. I think it had its own sort of protection, didn't it, really. But that certainly put her off. But that was the minor support group, yeah.

00:04:44.580 - 00:04:59.660

So we used to have the meetings on a Monday night in Leamington. And the weekend, this had all happened like Saturday and Sunday, so she came to the meeting on the Monday. She didn't know they all knew. They stood up and gave her a standing ovation.

00:05:00.620 - 00:05:11.680

It was lovely actually. But she would never go, she never went on a march or anything again after that. No, I don't think I would have done either. I understand you were so frightened.

00:05:11.680 - 00:05:25.560

I was just sort of a nice middle-class girl who was suddenly flung into the back of a police van. You know, it's just not us, you know. Yeah, but anyway. Was that being recorded? Sorry.

00:05:25.800 - 00:05:37.600

Yes, no, it's okay. It's really interesting to hear about the other sort of political forms of activism that were happening at the same time. True. Because it wasn't happening in a vacuum, was it, Greenham Commons?

00:05:38.480 - 00:05:50.360

So it's interesting in that sense to hear about. A comparison between the women holding the fort for the miners as well. Yes, absolutely. The same sort of women, you know, same sort of thing.

00:05:52.180 - 00:06:10.160

So when was the first time you went to the camp to visit? Well, I went to Leamington in 1980, so it would be sort of 81 or 82. We used to have a coach out once a month on a Saturday, I think. So that's how I used to go.

00:06:10.600 - 00:06:21.700

That's why most of the people that went like that didn't camp, you know. So, yeah. In fact, when I did my... You know, you haven't went to college, you have to do...

00:06:21.700 - 00:06:32.960

If you're doing a degree, you have to do a presentation. And I did mine, because I'm a hoarder. I found the ground sheet from my tent, and the back... Is it the fly sheet?

00:06:33.440 - 00:06:43.720

And it had Wendy Jones' CND on it. And I still got it up in the loft, you see. So when I did the presentation... A quivering mass, I was...

00:06:43.720 - 00:06:56.580

So I had this as the backdrop behind me, you know. And I had recordings of Peggy Seager singing. And I don't know, pitch... Pass things around for everybody.

00:06:57.160 - 00:07:07.900

Yes, so... But I haven't got it anymore now, because it got very old and very smelly. Yeah. Eventually you start throwing things out, don't you?

00:07:09.740 - 00:07:22.460

So, no, it was a nice crowd. And I think I mentioned in there about Terry Bailey, a folk singer, who sang every night with his friends outside the jail, where the women were, for them.

00:07:22.800 - 00:07:31.740

Which I thought was a lovely touch, you know. Because I love men, you know, as well. I thought that was such a nice touch. But he did live round the corner from me,

00:07:31.800 - 00:07:38.100

so I'm going to see if I can track him down. Because it would be nice for him to contribute, wouldn't it? Yeah, lovely. Yeah.

00:07:38.980 - 00:07:49.240

And they made sure they had music every night. So maybe not many people know about that, you see. Absolutely, yeah. And I'm going to hear a lot of things I haven't heard about.

00:07:49.760 - 00:07:59.560

That's the lovely thing, isn't it, that everyone had a different experience, learning so many different perspectives. It would make a wonderful film,

00:07:59.680 - 00:08:07.720

because I've just been to see Peterloo, which I urge you to go and see. It must be on in Oxford somewhere. It must be in Oxford.

00:08:07.960 - 00:08:16.760

Sure, yes. Yes, and that had funding like yours, you know. And it's in quite strong Lancashire dialect, it's been done as well.

00:08:17.060 - 00:08:21.740

Is it Maxine Peake? Is it the actress? Yes, yes, I think so. She was in it, yeah.

00:08:22.820 - 00:08:33.440

I mean, I thoroughly loved it, because I grew up near Manchester, so it was absolutely in our veins when we were at school there. But no, it's well worth going to see, yeah.

00:08:34.140 - 00:08:49.600

I have to make a note. Could you tell me a little bit about, you were talking about music, about your engagement with Peggy Segar

00:08:49.600 - 00:08:54.520

and folk music in relation to Greenham, because you were telling me a bit about that before we were recording. Yeah.

00:08:54.520 - 00:09:02.300

I think that would be really fascinating to know a bit more about. Well, I've always sung, and I've sung in choirs, you know.

00:09:02.420 - 00:09:15.340

I was in a chorus, always been in choirs, and my foster mother was a pianist and music teacher, and when I went to live with them, she used to have a lot of people came to practice,

00:09:15.620 - 00:09:25.640

singers and violinists and things, and I used to live with a person outside, and she commented once that I would go in and I'd sing what I'd heard somebody singing,

00:09:25.640 - 00:09:37.800

or, you know, because I had what they call perfect pitch, I could just memorise it all, you see. And so then ultimately I had singing lessons and won a girl's singing scholarship,

00:09:38.000 - 00:09:47.000

and I was all set to be going to the Royal Northern College of Music or the Hallé Choral Society because of the work I had done, the studying.

00:09:47.460 - 00:09:56.860

And then my foster parents suddenly upped and moved, so everything went, you know. I'd just got to the art school, I had all this lovely singing, you know,

00:09:57.220 - 00:10:09.000

and they moved to Bricelet, which is near London, and it just broke my heart because it wasn't the North, it was just so different, you know, and they were all frightfully posh,

00:10:09.080 - 00:10:19.000

the girls there and the boys, and I still had this quite strong accent, you know. And it was just me because I'm like that and I felt about this big, you know.

00:10:19.240 - 00:10:31.720

But anyway, I soon settled in and married one of them. Eventually. Yeah, moved to Betjemanland. Get this off my shoulder.

00:10:33.840 - 00:10:47.480

So what else would you like to know? Just a bit about sort of meeting Peggy Segar and the role that she played in Greenham Common. No, I had a telephone thing with her,

00:10:47.600 - 00:11:01.720

interview with her, and I only met her when she came to Ruskin, you know, when she came to the Rover at Cowley. Amazing place because they had so much money, you know.

00:11:02.240 - 00:11:12.440

And there's a sports centre and their ballroom and their place, you know, is incredible. So she did this benefit concert there for Ruskin. So that's when I actually met her

00:11:12.440 - 00:11:21.500

and she sang a lot of things. And she said, now are there any Greenham women here? And nobody moved, you know.

00:11:22.080 - 00:11:31.540

And she said, if this had been America, there would have been a stampede. So eventually, it's like three of us put our hands up and she said, come on, come on,

00:11:31.560 - 00:11:37.840

you've got to come up and sing with me. It was wonderful. You know, it was really nice. Yeah, I really enjoyed that.

00:11:38.360 - 00:11:46.040

Yes. So, no, she's a lovely woman, actually. Very, very nice. But she lives in Wobblecock by the Trout.

00:11:47.040 - 00:11:51.220

Did you know that? No, I didn't know that. Well, she did last time I heard of her. Yeah.

00:11:51.780 - 00:12:03.120

Do you remember what you sang when you went on? I'm just trying to think what the anthem was. Was it a Greenham Common, was it an anthem that was sung there?

00:12:03.420 - 00:12:11.240

I can't remember now. The famous Greenham song, which escapes me. Yes, that's what we sang. We all held hands, you know.

00:12:11.240 - 00:12:19.600

Yeah, it was lovely, yeah. There were quite a lot of like-minded people there, you know. Yeah. Because you were telling me she was at Greenham.

00:12:19.820 - 00:12:27.280

Oh, yes, right at the beginning. Oh, yes, yes, yeah. I think she's a bit older than me, actually. I think so, yes.

00:12:27.780 - 00:12:42.480

And, of course, she was back from St. Paul's to America because she's got children there, you know. No, of course, I was very keen on folk music and its role in political activism.

00:12:42.940 - 00:12:55.620

And, well, you'll see when you read it all through what I'd written about it. And she and her husband, Ewan McColl, and I don't think he even mentioned she co-wrote them,

00:12:55.700 - 00:13:07.660

something called The Radio Ballads, which you should be able to listen to. Well, you can find out about that. I'm sure you can get access.

00:13:07.660 - 00:13:14.080

They may even have it at the Women's Library. Yeah. The Radio Ballads. And it'll be about travellers,

00:13:14.300 - 00:13:21.620

it'll be about mill workers, it'll be about everything. And they're absolutely incredible. They used to be on every Saturday.

00:13:22.940 - 00:13:32.140

And she's barely mentioned that she not only sang on them but co-wrote them. But that's what it was like then, you know. Yeah.

00:13:32.640 - 00:13:41.880

Sort of the tragedy of women's history, isn't it? It is, isn't it? And then the absolute joy of rediscovering and refinding and being able to re-attribute

00:13:41.880 - 00:13:52.360

and, you know, retrospectively associate that back. Yeah, I mean, there's one bit in there that I've written about. It'll make you weep. Even when I look at it now, it makes me weep,

00:13:52.480 - 00:14:05.420

one thing that's written, you know, about folk music. And also it was written a lot after the Industrial Revolution. Before that, it was all about farmers and ploughmen and all that sort of thing.

00:14:05.960 - 00:14:15.440

And then it became... It would have the rhythm of the looms or the rhythm of the chainmakers or something like that coming into it, you know.

00:14:15.700 - 00:14:22.980

So it evolved, you know. Now it's gone gentler again now, you know. Yeah. But, no, you'll like reading that.

00:14:23.260 - 00:14:28.640

It sounds really fascinating. Yeah. And was there a lot of music at Green and Common? Do you remember that from when you were a kid?

00:14:28.640 - 00:14:38.920

A lot of singing, yes, a lot of singing. Yeah, yeah. I don't think people had radios then. In the evenings, sort of, people would sit and sing.

00:14:39.100 - 00:14:44.800

It's like campfire thing, isn't it? Yeah. And, no, it was... I forgot.

00:14:44.960 - 00:15:01.400

I thought I'd never hear any more about that anymore, you know. Yes. I hope everybody's kept anything they've got from there, you know. So there were quite a lot of mainly middle-class women, really,

00:15:01.900 - 00:15:12.500

educated women. Well, the ones that I met, you know. It was harder for the working-class women, you know, really, to go on those demos.

00:15:13.060 - 00:15:29.880

And they'd have to have a husband who was sympathetic as well, you know. It's funny, because we were going to go on one of the Old Marston marches many years ago when my husband was around, and I'd either just had a baby or was just expecting a baby

00:15:29.880 - 00:15:41.660

or pushing, I can't remember, two of them or something. One of my friends said to me, Why didn't you go? What kept you? And we couldn't go for some reason.

00:15:42.260 - 00:15:57.340

But this Greenwich thing really sprang out of that. It was the same sort of people, and that was very much men and women, the Old Marston marches, which is the first CND with all the famous people in it, yeah.

00:15:58.500 - 00:16:08.420

So what did you think about the decision for Green and Common to be all women in relation to that? At first I wasn't too happy about it, and then I saw the reasoning behind it,

00:16:09.340 - 00:16:25.420

and they got a lot more respect because of it. It was like that policeman said, like, they were lovely. And the big problem there was, this is what people used to say. I don't necessarily need to put this on the interview, really.

00:16:26.200 - 00:16:42.440

They used to say that it was mainly very militant lesbians, the people were against anyway then, much more so than now, and that they had tried to take over because they'd taken over one of the gates.

00:16:44.120 - 00:16:59.360

And there was a lot of dope smoking, things like that went on. And so everybody saw just that because the newspaper reports were awful, you know. And so that was a bit of a shame,

00:16:59.660 - 00:17:09.400

but, you know, you get hundreds of people together and things like that happen. But it was just mostly nice women, you know. I never remember seeing many children.

00:17:10.060 - 00:17:19.720

I never saw anybody with any young children in there. There might have been on some other occasions, but I don't think they went in. I don't think so.

00:17:20.880 - 00:17:31.420

Because there were no toilets, you know, when I come to think of it. It was nothing like that. This is why sensible women, all ethnic women, don't wear trousers because you can wee anywhere.

00:17:32.400 - 00:17:44.080

Looking at Appleby Fair the other night, hundreds of people there, all the gypsy women, they're all in skirts. And my Syrian friend down the road, she's always in a skirt.

00:17:44.620 - 00:17:53.060

She's got trousers underneath. But, you know, you can go for a wee anywhere, like men can. But if you've got to pull trousers down, and especially, as she said,

00:17:53.120 - 00:18:02.660

a lot of Indian women are very vulnerable at night because they haven't got toilets, you know. And if you've got a skirt, you know, you can sort of make a little tent around it.

00:18:02.960 - 00:18:14.220

But I don't remember seeing any washing facilities. But we were going home at night, so it didn't probably... And we took sandwiches and things. Yeah.

00:18:15.760 - 00:18:31.020

Do you remember what particularly motivated you to go to Greenham Common to visit? Well, because I knew about it, and through reading about it and being in C&D, which was the original thing, you see,

00:18:31.860 - 00:18:45.660

that came out of Oldermaston, yes. And we'd been on different rallies in London, you know. Very big rallies we had in London. It was amazing, actually. Yes.

00:18:47.040 - 00:18:56.880

But it's not as crowded as you think. Have you ever been on a demonstration? It's not as bad as you think, because imagine walking along the high street in Oxford.

00:18:57.060 - 00:19:07.460

There's plenty of spaces, and also there are loads of cafes. So you can just nip in and get a coffee. You can sit down for a while, or then you walk on a bit longer. You'll meet somebody you know.

00:19:08.060 - 00:19:19.240

I met one of my friends who'd got one leg on his bicycle and his other leg had come off. He'd come up from Glastonbury. You keep seeing people you know.

00:19:20.340 - 00:19:28.640

And then you'd lose the people you were with, and you'd say, can you look out for me when I come back? Does anybody want a drink?

00:19:28.700 - 00:19:39.440

And you'd go off and get coffees and things and teas. They were very friendly, very friendly, apart from the miners one, which did get nasty, got very nasty, yeah.

00:19:40.340 - 00:19:49.440

It sort of put me off as well, because after I'd moved into Leamington, and a little while afterwards, and I realised that my phone...

00:19:49.440 - 00:19:58.060

I was too innocent to know what it was, but my phone was obviously tapped, and then I kept getting mail that had been opened and interfered with.

00:19:58.380 - 00:20:07.980

Other people will tell you that. Yes, it was, you know, not very nice. And if you're a woman living on your own, you feel a bit worried then

00:20:07.980 - 00:20:16.820

when that sort of thing happens, you know. And you think, oh, I'll leave it to somebody else now. We went to Molesworth as well. That was another camp.

00:20:16.840 - 00:20:25.820

Have you heard of Molesworth? Yes, my other son went to that one a couple of times. That was... I can't remember where it was. That was men and women.

00:20:25.960 - 00:20:40.740

It was a smaller peace camp. And they had a small one near Oxford at Payford as well. So that was also protesting the presence of nuclear weapons. Yes, that was a sort of agreement, yes, at that time, yes.

00:20:41.500 - 00:20:49.200

Yes, I don't know about other parts of the country. I don't know whether anything went on there at all, do you? I don't know. No.

00:20:49.200 - 00:20:56.360

I don't know in terms of camping. No. No, I think that's about all I... But if I think of things, I'll jot them down.

00:20:56.400 - 00:21:01.980

Yes, I do. Because if I see you again, then I can tell you. Do you remember what the atmosphere was like when you went to visit?

00:21:02.220 - 00:21:09.140

Lovely, yes. Really nice. Very, really nice, yes. Which it is, actually, when you get all women together like that.

00:21:09.180 - 00:21:15.300

It is lovely, isn't it? Yes. A lot of laughter. A lot of singing, you know.

00:21:16.240 - 00:21:24.940

A lot of rude jokes. You know, it's just nice because there weren't any men at that particular time, you know. We had lots...

00:21:24.940 - 00:21:37.260

It's like women anyway get together with all their friends. But you still got men around at other times. So, no, it was quite nice to be away from them for a little while, but not sort of permanently.

00:21:37.840 - 00:21:50.220

And I wish my son could have come up, you know. I don't think how old he was. He's 63 now. He would be about 18 or something, 20, something like that.

00:21:50.960 - 00:22:02.720

And he went with another friend called Gordon, who we still know, and he lives in Wales. And they went to school with both my boys, you know, and they were there, which was lovely.

00:22:03.580 - 00:22:15.660

And then they did go back afterwards, I know, and take food and wood and things like that, the men. So they got... A lot of men did that, supported around the perimeter, you know,

00:22:16.240 - 00:22:32.320

and gave people lifts home and things, you see. People sometimes wanted to go home and get washed and see their families. But there's a very interesting bit in the project about a girl. I can't remember.

00:22:32.420 - 00:22:39.860

Richardson was her mother's name. She was an MP. She was at school. She went to the camp while she was at school.

00:22:40.240 - 00:22:51.260

I think she was in the middle of doing a GCSE, whatever it would be then. GCSE. Yeah. And so she dropped out of school to do that, you see.

00:22:51.260 - 00:23:00.640

And, of course, they wouldn't have her back. There was a big fuss about that. And so, of course, Ruskin embraced her and finished her education for her there.

00:23:01.760 - 00:23:11.880

And I can't remember what her name is, but it's about that in there. Somebody Richardson, yeah. So there were lots of little stories like that. I mean, you'll gather hundreds of them.

00:23:12.400 - 00:23:25.480

How many interviews have they done so far? When we were originally sort of recruited for the project, I think there's ten volunteers plus the two organisers, and I think we're all aiming to do a minimum of ten interviews each.

00:23:25.660 - 00:23:32.960

Right. So I suppose that's over 100 interviews. Yeah. Ideally.

00:23:33.260 - 00:23:41.760

So I must remember to get to ask my friend about the policeman, if we could have his phone number. Because it would be nice, wouldn't it? Yes.

00:23:50.980 - 00:24:00.640

When you were visiting, what did you sort of sense the relations were like between the men that were there as in sort of the authority, the police, the soldiers and the women?

00:24:00.820 - 00:24:11.260

Well, I didn't see any sort of the men men around. And the policemen were all... I didn't see any violence. They were all jolly like the one with the daffodils.

00:24:11.640 - 00:24:21.420

But they were all very young as well. They were like our sons, sort of thing. Because there were quite a lot of older women there as well, because they could spare the time, you know.

00:24:22.480 - 00:24:39.060

And so, I mean, they did far more than their fair share and roughing it as well and sweeping out. And it was harder for them as well to give up all their luxury and comfort. And, yes, it was not very nice living rough like that

00:24:39.060 - 00:24:49.400

and rotten food and everything. So there were an awful lot of older women, I did notice. Yeah. So you'd probably find that with the interviews at a certain age.

00:24:53.000 - 00:25:00.420

And did you participate or see any sort of organised protests happening when you were there? No. No?

00:25:00.540 - 00:25:06.400

No, not at all. Except, I think one of those is circling the camp, isn't it? And walking around. Yeah.

00:25:06.460 - 00:25:12.980

Embrace the base. Yeah. Yes, that would be the nearest to it. Yeah.

00:25:14.060 - 00:25:25.460

I think it's a housing estate now, isn't it, or something? I was talking to the person I spoke to last week who was saying that there is a housing estate there, but it's also sort of the common now.

00:25:25.560 - 00:25:33.920

It's just this big, expansive, open space. Oh, is it? And there's still a couple of the towers there. And the memorials, monuments.

00:25:34.240 - 00:25:42.120

Those who kept them, I think, as a reminder. Yeah. She said it's very strange because it's just this open, expansive... I wouldn't want to go and see it, no.

00:25:42.800 - 00:25:49.220

Now, I've written a bit about Watership Down, which you'll read in there. I saw a little bit about that. Oh, you read it? Yes. Yeah.

00:25:49.640 - 00:26:00.420

And it's funny because they had the film on over Christmas. It was rubbish, actually, the Watership Down film. But they were having all this housing development, you know, having to move off.

00:26:00.840 - 00:26:09.720

You know, having a similar time of, you know, themselves being disrupted because of something. Yeah. I thought the film was awful.

00:26:12.120 - 00:26:17.100

I think there probably must be other books written about it. Must be. Yes. Yeah.

00:26:17.420 - 00:26:32.620

Yeah, absolutely. As somebody who is actively engaged in activism and music, what role do you think art plays in activism? That what?

00:26:32.820 - 00:26:42.780

Art plays in activism, in a very broad sense. Well, music. I've written about that extensively in there. Because I think it's sort of interwoven.

00:26:43.040 - 00:26:53.100

The folk music is very much mainly women, actually, to have carried it on, you know. It's something they can do while they're working. It fits in with what they're doing.

00:26:53.700 - 00:27:00.320

And I think they had it. Yeah. There were a lot of various... I think women have always sung, you know,

00:27:00.820 - 00:27:10.340

when they're nursing children and everything. They've had more time for it, haven't they? Yeah. I mean, there's one song in there called Poverty, Poverty Knock,

00:27:10.780 - 00:27:24.200

which is the noise of the looms gives the rhythm, you know. So a lot of them are based on the rhythms of how they're working. And like in the black country, they have these big forges that go thump, thump.

00:27:25.580 - 00:27:37.040

And that rhythm is in a lot of their songs, you know. Black country people are very interesting. Very, very interesting. You didn't see Peaky Blinders, did you?

00:27:37.060 - 00:27:42.100

I did, yes. Thank God for that. Everybody looks at me blankly. Oh, really?

00:27:42.360 - 00:27:48.480

You know it's from a true story. No, I didn't. Did you see all of it? I haven't seen... I've seen the first bit of it,

00:27:48.580 - 00:27:57.860

the first season of it. Well, do you want to switch this off while I tell you about it? Because it's not to do with this project. I'm so excited to find someone else.

00:27:58.280 - 00:28:07.840

Yes, go on. They were Romanes and very... I think one of them were the Petralangos and somebody else. And they were called up for the First World War.

00:28:08.280 - 00:28:18.500

So in the beginning of the film, you see them all with their caravans and wagons. And I miss the first two or three. And they went to war, they went to the First World War,

00:28:18.580 - 00:28:31.160

and they just came back completely damaged and really damaged because of what they'd seen. You know what it was like. And they started to act up and get very, very violent,

00:28:31.160 - 00:28:40.640

very nasty. That program wasn't just about... It was about a lot of things, you know. But then they got involved with gambling and things like that.

00:28:40.760 - 00:28:50.440

And it's very strong women in it as well. Amazing. And then they got masses of money. They became very, very wealthy.

00:28:51.160 - 00:29:03.280

And then there were all these rivalry fights and things. And then it got... I didn't see all of the last thing. It got involved with the Mafia because some of the cousins had gone to America and made a lot of money.

00:29:03.660 - 00:29:14.720

So the new series, which is starting I don't know when, is how they are now. But I'm not going to tell you what happened halfway through because it will spoil it.

00:29:14.740 - 00:29:27.860

You'll wonder what happened. But there's some amazing shots of a couple of real gypsy weddings in proper wagons going along the cobblestone streets and then the burning of the caravan and everything.

00:29:27.860 - 00:29:34.200

And every now and then... I can't remember his name. Cillian? Yes, that's it.

00:29:34.860 - 00:29:47.780

Cautious. Every now and then he goes wild. He goes back to where their site was. They light fires and they sit around.

00:29:47.820 - 00:29:58.400

They revert to what they used to be and talk about it. But a lot of people missed all of that. They just saw it as like a gangster thing. It was amazing.

00:30:00.180 - 00:30:10.040

I can't remember the name of the woman in it. She was incredible. She sang a couple of times in it as well earlier on. There was a lot of sex in it.

00:30:11.120 - 00:30:21.580

Very explicit, wasn't it? But the woman, the one who ran that big pub, she was amazing. And they had Tom Waits singing as well.

00:30:22.140 - 00:30:32.600

Tom Waits, an amazing American folk singer with a really deep, deep, rough voice. You had to listen to some of his music. It's amazing.

00:30:32.960 - 00:30:42.120

Yes, they used a lot of his songs in the background. There was everything. I loved it in that. It inspired me to go home and watch it now. Watch the rest of it.

00:30:42.440 - 00:30:51.060

Do you have a library of films? Because we had a lot of videos in Ruskin. Everything's sort of online now so you can access things digitally.

00:30:51.360 - 00:31:06.560

Oh, so you can get the books set and watch them. And take your time over them. Oh, that would be a good thing to do, wouldn't it? Because the archives at Ruskin were down in the basement.

00:31:07.940 - 00:31:18.160

I had the privilege to have that, to use that little room. And it was just lots and lots of old LPs and a few books and magazines and a really grotty little record,

00:31:18.400 - 00:31:29.440

like a dance set sort of thing, record player. It was just amazing, absolutely amazing. I was very privileged. I don't know where it's gone because they would have moved it

00:31:29.440 - 00:31:39.700

when they sold Ruskin's building to Exeter College. So I don't know what they've done with it. No, I didn't realise Exeter owned that now. Owned that building?

00:31:39.860 - 00:31:52.620

Right, yeah. Well, Ruskin didn't have a lot of money and buildings never come up for sale in Oxford. And this woman, who I actually happen to know

00:31:52.620 - 00:32:01.880

because I used to sing with her, she was from Warwick University. I think she was the principal. She was headhunted to go in

00:32:01.880 - 00:32:14.800

because everyone was going to be against us selling Ruskin. So that's why she was there, to engineer that. And the money they raised, I've forgotten how many millions, paid for them to build...

00:32:15.540 - 00:32:25.960

Well, they'd already got the place at Headington to build this wonderful student accommodation, luxury apartments that they rent out, and it's beautiful down there.

00:32:27.560 - 00:32:40.060

It was the right thing to do, actually. The only thing is that Exeter promised that we would always have a room there for us, the alumni, to be able to go in, and that was still our common room.

00:32:40.060 - 00:32:49.300

There was no sign of that. Nothing's happened, you know. But, no, it was lovely. It was lovely in that building, yeah.

00:32:49.920 - 00:33:01.160

And I met lots of famous people. John Prescott came in once, spent the day with us. Do you know, he is so nice. He's absolutely lovely.

00:33:01.660 - 00:33:12.040

Very, very sexy, which is strange, actually. You wouldn't sort of think it, would you? Absolutely a lovely man. He's also dyslexic, which is not well known.

00:33:12.720 - 00:33:22.680

I mean, I could just tell. I knew because of the struggles he had when he went there. And then he went on to Hull University and did other degrees.

00:33:23.340 - 00:33:34.880

But he learnt to deep-sea dive so that he could support the Seabans Union. Yeah, he was an amazing person. Absolutely amazing.

00:33:35.660 - 00:33:45.240

Really incredible, yeah. And he spent the day with us, which was lovely. And they'd found his old reports, and he was reading them out and everything.

00:33:46.480 - 00:33:54.940

And he was saying, what's a bloated plutotarian? Is that the word I'm trying to look for? Something like that.

00:33:57.120 - 00:34:06.040

What expletive does that mean? He was saying that somebody had written about him. Yeah, we used to get people like Colin Thorpe. He used to come in.

00:34:06.520 - 00:34:14.140

Lots and lots of nice people used to pop in. Because it was very radical in there, you know. Very nice. Anyway, digressing.

00:34:15.000 - 00:34:22.700

So interesting. It's easy to do, isn't it? Yes. Maybe we could talk a little bit about... You mentioned in passing

00:34:22.700 - 00:34:32.080

that some of the media hadn't been very kind in their presentation of Greenham. Do you think that was representative of what the media as a whole,

00:34:32.360 - 00:34:37.820

how they were responding to Greenham? I really don't know. I'm not really sure. But just in your experience,

00:34:37.960 - 00:34:49.040

what you came into contact with at that time. It was just some of the things you read in the papers. I didn't go into that very much. I suppose it depends which paper, doesn't it?

00:34:49.380 - 00:34:55.160

Of course. I must go to the loo. Yes, do. Shall I leave everything here?

00:34:55.280 - 00:35:03.400

Yes, I'll just wait here for you. Lovely, I will, I will. There we go, back in. I wouldn't want to know.

00:35:03.760 - 00:35:15.940

Know all the details. Has your relationship to nuclear weapons changed since visiting the camp? You haven't really spoken about nuclear weapons much.

00:35:15.940 - 00:35:30.680

Obviously, I'm still very much against them. And also particularly because my best friend is married to a Japanese man. It's pure coincidence that they live next door to me

00:35:30.680 - 00:35:44.540

in Leamington. Because my daughter-in-law was Japanese. And I met so many Japanese people at that time. So I've got a real affinity with what they went through

00:35:45.720 - 00:35:55.040

from that point. And how they are at the moment, which is appalling. I mean, they're not having children. They've got a whole population of mainly older people now.

00:35:56.940 - 00:36:10.580

Whether it's something from the effect of the bomb that's affected their psyche. But they're just not having children like they used to. It's sort of like when I met Gina's grandparents.

00:36:10.880 - 00:36:24.340

You could feel this sort of terrible sadness in them. I mean, they went through a dreadful thing, didn't they? Then they had the tsunami as well. But no, they're lovely people.

00:36:25.140 - 00:36:35.960

No, I think it's awful. We're either going to blow ourselves up or we're going to be obliterated according to the news. I feel sorry for young people.

00:36:36.300 - 00:36:51.160

I worry about my grandchildren. What are they doing? I really don't know. I've got a great-grandson as well.

00:36:53.480 - 00:37:02.580

How old are you, would you mind me asking? No, I'm still 25. Or 26. It's only just my granddaughter.

00:37:03.140 - 00:37:20.340

One's 25 and one's 26. No, I do worry about it all. And also I've got this terrible feeling of powerlessness. I don't take any medicines.

00:37:20.560 - 00:37:32.640

I don't go to the doctors or anything like that. I'm not a vegetarian, but I do take some supplements. I spent about half an hour in the chemist's yesterday trying to find something that wasn't in plastic bottles.

00:37:33.560 - 00:37:45.760

Because there would be huge plastic bottles everywhere. So the ones I take for my eyes, the eye supplements, they're made in Oxfordshire. And they're made from...

00:37:46.380 - 00:37:54.220

Tadgetus? Is it Tadgetus? Dandelion? I think it's dandelion. It's sort of like Walidah's stuff, it's all like that.

00:37:54.820 - 00:38:05.440

And they just come in a bubble thing, anyway. A bubble pack thing. But everything else is all huge. It's terrifying.

00:38:06.980 - 00:38:17.000

That's why I've got this thing about all these people going out litter-pitting at weekends. Instead of going for walks, looking at snowdrops and things. Do something while you're walking, you know.

00:38:17.000 - 00:38:27.420

But they go out on all the beaches, apparently. I think that's very worthwhile, isn't it? Yes, definitely. I mean, one woman, she'd got 15 bags, I thought.

00:38:27.540 - 00:38:36.720

You know, bin bags. And it was everywhere, all over the beaches. What did I buy the other day? Cotton buds.

00:38:37.600 - 00:38:46.320

And I thought, I'm going to find cotton buds. Because my daughter said there are some with wooden things now. So I did find some. Superdrug do them with wooden...

00:38:46.320 - 00:38:59.980

But they're in a plastic box! So I've dispensed them into a pretty little... Like a jam pot, fancy jam thing. And put them in that, with just one poking out.

00:39:00.240 - 00:39:12.880

I thought that was quite clever. I don't feel we can do much about it now. That's how I feel. Sounds like you've been a really committed activist

00:39:12.880 - 00:39:23.000

throughout your whole life. Well, not so much an activist. But personally doing what I can. And I think that's a lot because I'm a Christian.

00:39:23.660 - 00:39:38.400

And so I sort of... I've always sort of championed the underdog. And because I was very much the underdog myself. Yes, I've always been on the side of people like that.

00:39:38.920 - 00:39:50.020

Just like being fostered and not very happily. I think that's what it is, yes. Always championed the underdogs. And of course my parents who brought me up

00:39:50.460 - 00:40:05.940

weren't like that at all, you see. I think they thought they'd got an alien. Unfortunately, because they didn't call it dyslexia in that day. It was called being educationally subnormal, they used to say.

00:40:06.300 - 00:40:16.120

You couldn't read and write very well. I didn't learn to read till I... Way of describing somebody. I didn't learn to read properly till I was eight.

00:40:16.240 - 00:40:24.800

And of course I never stopped then. It was amazing. But of course they were very academic. And my brother, as I call him in that family,

00:40:24.840 - 00:40:37.760

he went to Manchester Grammar School. And he went to Cambridge and he's an MA. He's nearly 92 and he still plays chess. He doesn't use computers or anything like that.

00:40:38.460 - 00:40:50.540

I'm pleased to know it actually because he's so clever. He won't have anything to do with it, you know. I don't think he's even got a mobile phone. And he plays chess with his friend

00:40:50.540 - 00:41:03.280

who shared the same landing when he was at Cambridge. They called the landings then, you know. With Bob Hattersley and Richard Attenborough. That's right.

00:41:03.700 - 00:41:16.780

Whose father was a Don at Cambridge. So he still plays chess with Bob. And they have this letter comes backwards and forwards every fortnight. I think it's lovely, you know.

00:41:17.000 - 00:41:29.700

Quite a gentler age. But he's really mellowed as he's got older. He was very... It's horrible. But I think it's just me, you know.

00:41:29.760 - 00:41:42.800

Because I felt like an alien there, you know. So I think that's why I've always gone to the underdog side of people, you know, the poorer people. It's interesting that you link your activism to being Christian

00:41:42.800 - 00:41:53.060

because the lady I interviewed on Friday was a Quaker. Oh, I was very much into it. Precisely why she went. Did you get a sense when you were either at Greenham

00:41:53.060 - 00:42:06.120

or around that time that religion played quite a big part in activism? No, because I very rarely bring it up in conversation. I'm only... Because of you, I'm just... And obviously because of the Quaker thing, it comes into it.

00:42:06.500 - 00:42:18.400

No, it's not anything I normally talk about because so few people are Christians. No, you know, it's strange, isn't it? And at the camp at the time?

00:42:18.500 - 00:42:27.780

Never heard of anything. I mean, they might have had a little service or a visiting minister. I don't know. I wonder if it did feature there. It would be interesting to find out.

00:42:28.140 - 00:42:35.540

It would, wouldn't it? I would have thought the local churches, or maybe they don't want to get involved in politics. Could be, couldn't it?

00:42:35.780 - 00:42:47.240

I know that some of the local Quakers, they sort of set up almost pay-as-you-go showers. You know, you put coins in to have a hot shower. They built them in the halls, the Quaker halls.

00:42:47.500 - 00:42:55.160

Oh, did they? So the women could go down and have a shower. So I know the Quakers locally seem to be quite supportive. Was this an auction?

00:42:55.640 - 00:43:01.840

No, this was at Greenham. Oh, at Greenham. Oh, I didn't know about that. Yeah, at the time. So I think the Quakers were sort of quite active

00:43:01.840 - 00:43:08.160

in being as helpful as they could, but I don't know much about... It would be interesting to follow that up. Yeah, it would be, wouldn't it?

00:43:09.180 - 00:43:22.920

Well, the Friends Meeting House here in Oxford, you could perhaps speak to somebody there about it, couldn't you? Yeah, absolutely. Is there sort of a moment or an emotion or a picture

00:43:22.920 - 00:43:31.120

or something that particularly sums up Greenham for you when you think about it? Well, I love the policeman with the daffodils. He's my favourite.

00:43:32.320 - 00:43:42.720

It would be lovely if he turns out to be my friend's father or father-in-law or something. That would be such a lovely full circle. Actually, I'll ask her to take a photograph of it

00:43:42.720 - 00:43:51.040

and send it to him, because it would be nice, wouldn't it? Yes, yeah. I go to an art group and they're all terribly excited about this

00:43:51.040 - 00:44:03.800

because I never missed the class or anything, but I missed it because of this happening. Not today, no, later on. And I'd rang on my friend who had a mobile phone

00:44:03.800 - 00:44:13.920

who lives in Oxford, because there are now people from Bavaria that go to this, from all over, and I said, can you tell Rachel, I'm sorry, I'm not going to be there today,

00:44:14.020 - 00:44:23.080

so I won't be having lunch with you, because I'm being interviewed by... Oh, she said, hang on, she put it on loud. Or something for everyone to hear.

00:44:23.580 - 00:44:29.400

Wow. They're all very excited about it, yes. Were they involved, or was it just... I don't think so.

00:44:30.440 - 00:44:40.440

No, but tomorrow when I see them, they'll all want to know how I get on, and I'll say, was anybody else here involved? I'd say perhaps from my friend's father or father-in-law.

00:44:40.620 - 00:44:52.640

Yeah, yeah. Well, we'd love to talk to anybody who was involved and interested. Yes, I don't know what... I'll ask Ian what he thought about things, my son, you know,

00:44:52.800 - 00:45:02.940

and I can make note of that. Yes. No, I think... They went to Molesworth as well, which was...

00:45:02.940 - 00:45:12.220

I'm not quite sure where it was. We went there by coach. The coaches took people, you see, that's the thing. And I'm not quite sure where...

00:45:12.220 - 00:45:22.340

Do you organise the coaches? Well, they're probably the local CND groups, which they were, you see. We used to go to CND meetings.

00:45:22.900 - 00:45:36.640

We used to go to Friends of the Earth meetings, you know, for a long, long time. In fact, when we moved off our boat and went to Banbury, the first thing my eldest son, who's a Buddhist, by the way, said,

00:45:37.520 - 00:45:47.640

the first thing we do to make friends is we join CND and we join Friends of the Earth. He was all the same people at each one, and then became all our friends.

00:45:48.240 - 00:45:59.560

Yes, he's a Buddhist, a proper Buddhist. He's a monk, you know, and he speaks quite a good bit of Japanese because his wife was Japanese.

00:46:00.560 - 00:46:15.680

She's sadly gone to heaven. He speaks Cantonese and Mandarin, so he spends quite a few months there every year in, not Hong Kong, a place called Lantau Island,

00:46:15.880 - 00:46:28.840

which is one I don't know if you know anything about. It's a wonderful little island with a huge gold Buddha on it. All the tourists go there to see it. And so that's his main monastery where he was actually ordained,

00:46:29.000 - 00:46:44.280

but he does a lot of chanting because he was a singer as well. Both my sons were choristers, and so he does a lot of amazing chanting in these different languages. And he said it's terribly similar to Christianity in a lot of ways.

00:46:44.740 - 00:46:53.660

You've got people eating. There'll be something to drink. There'll be a table, you know, like an altar sort of thing, and cloths over it.

00:46:53.820 - 00:47:03.220

He said it's so similar the world over, all these different religions, you know. Notice it when I've been sort of Hindu-y things. It's all terribly similar.

00:47:04.420 - 00:47:14.220

Yeah. That's one of my aunts, my lovely aunts. I did have a couple of nice people in the family that brought me up. She used to say to me,

00:47:14.740 - 00:47:23.960

in our father's house there are many mansions, she used to say, which is true. But no, that's what he does. I had a card from him yesterday.

00:47:24.600 - 00:47:37.040

It would take weeks to get to me because he's in Thailand now giving some lectures in a caves complex somewhere. I can't wait to hear that. Yeah, he does quite a lot of lectures out there.

00:47:38.600 - 00:47:49.100

He's 60. He's going to be 65 when he gets back. He'll get his pension at long last. Yeah, he's got a cottage in Wales.

00:47:49.660 - 00:47:57.000

Oh, Newcastle Emlyn. Do you know Wales at all? Newcastle Emlyn, it's lovely. Very Welsh-speaking there as well.

00:47:57.600 - 00:48:08.520

Yeah, he's got a nice little cottage there. He's coming home at the beginning of the summer before it gets too hot. Your family sounds just fascinating. Actually, they are.

00:48:08.860 - 00:48:23.340

I've not even touched on it. We've been here for months and I've told you about my real family that I found, my own proper family and everything like that. I'm talking to my daughter who did all the research.

00:48:23.540 - 00:48:38.980

It's just incredible on family history and everything. Oh, I've got one set of papers that I've got to go down to the Imperial War Museum with one of my real aunts who was captured by the Germans during the war.

00:48:39.140 - 00:48:51.160

She was teaching there in France because they were teaching nuns. They all had a sort of profession. I've got a tape recording of her telling me about her experiences which was just for the family.

00:48:52.380 - 00:49:08.880

And all these papers, obviously somebody in her convent must have had them all printed out for her. I'm sending the originals, newspaper cuttings about these nuns coming back. They were swapped with German prisoners at the end of the war.

00:49:09.440 - 00:49:24.120

It took nine weeks to get back to England for some securities. I've got pictures of them and they look so thin and pale, these poor sisters. So that's another amazing story.

00:49:24.480 - 00:49:33.160

But I'm going to take the original ones down to the Imperial War Museum because they're beginning to break up a bit. And I can keep copies and they can have the originals. Yes.

00:49:33.840 - 00:49:47.980

Oh, but no, you wouldn't believe it. My real family were incredible. They've got everything in it. Whether it's because I've had to discover them bit by bit

00:49:47.980 - 00:50:00.680

or they gradually came upon me. But it's my daughter that did it because I didn't even have my birth certificate until I was 18. I had to get married with assumed names and things like that.

00:50:02.300 - 00:50:12.800

And now it's easy. If you said to me, I was adopted, I'd say, if you're on the internet, you can find somebody that evening, which is fatal because I've seen it happen.

00:50:13.160 - 00:50:27.060

But, you know, that's how easy it is now. But she had to do it by looking through the records, parish records and creed books, which were enormous workhouse books like this,

00:50:27.860 - 00:50:40.820

that you can go in and see if you go to Somerset House or places like that in London. Creed records, they're called. And they're huge.

00:50:41.060 - 00:50:55.960

And as children were entered into these places, you know, homes or taken in off the street, it was all in copperplate writings, all about them, what religion they were, where they'd come from.

00:50:56.560 - 00:51:06.200

And then a few days later, it'll say, discharged back to mother. And then a bit further, found on the street with mother and several of them all back in it.

00:51:06.620 - 00:51:18.900

I mean, it just, you know, you could write millions of novels from them, you know. They're just incredible to look at, yeah. The one I was in was called The Waves and Straits.

00:51:19.000 - 00:51:30.720

It's emotive, isn't it? It's very Dickensian, The Waves and Straits. My son and I, I said, let's form a folk group and call ourselves The Waves and Straits.

00:51:31.140 - 00:51:42.480

It was Dickensian then, you know, before the war. It really was, yeah, it really was. And the fact that somebody could just pluck me out of somewhere like that and call me what they wanted

00:51:42.480 - 00:51:52.600

without any paperwork. I mean, there were so many families, you know. I met a lady in Banbury one day. She must have felt some affinity

00:51:52.600 - 00:52:01.100

because I was waiting for my coffee in Debenhams. She said, let me buy you your coffee, which is sweet of her. I said, thank you. So I thought, well, I'll go and sit with her.

00:52:01.780 - 00:52:10.360

And she looked at me and she said, now, I was fostered, she said. Now, whether she picked something up off me, I don't know. Because I've never met her before.

00:52:11.120 - 00:52:23.620

She was about my age and she was one of 12 children, all taken in somewhere in a village in Oxfordshire, all into a Tock H children's home, which I've never heard of.

00:52:23.980 - 00:52:35.020

That used to be something to do with the church, isn't it, Tock H? It was founded by a man who found a girl, I think he was a minister or something,

00:52:35.140 - 00:52:49.460

bleeding to death after having been given a bad abortion. And it made him set up this thing, you know. Awful things happened in those days. And she was one of 12 children from one family,

00:52:50.280 - 00:52:59.260

all just taken in because there was no money, I suppose. Yeah. That's why I like family history. Fascinating.

00:52:59.780 - 00:53:07.300

Anyway, you should tell me more about you, actually. I'm sure you would. It just was interesting, your life. I don't think I do.

00:53:07.600 - 00:53:16.040

But you've only just started, haven't you? Yes. I suppose talking of legacy, maybe a nicer way to end up talking about Greenham is

00:53:17.900 - 00:53:27.060

maybe you could explain why you think it's important that we remember Greenham for subsequent generations. Why is this project worth a while? It's so important.

00:53:27.200 - 00:53:38.960

It's as important as the Match Girls strike, isn't it, and the miners' strike, any of those things. And the Welsh women who went on the beaches with their red flannel petticoats,

00:53:38.960 - 00:53:48.340

you grew up with that, did you, at school? Things like that. So women have been amazing through history, haven't they? Doing things like that, yes.

00:53:49.040 - 00:53:55.440

And there were one or two women soldiers, weren't they, that went to war? I can't remember the name. There's an amazing book about one of them,

00:53:55.460 - 00:54:05.200

I can't remember her name. And they never found out until they were being laid out when they died, you know, that they were men or women or whatever, you know.

00:54:05.640 - 00:54:14.400

Yeah. Wow. I think women have always been very strong on that front, yes. I think it's sort of built into it

00:54:14.400 - 00:54:28.400

because of nurturing of the next generation, you know. Like I said, I'm worried sick about my children, grandchildren and great-grandchild. I don't hear men talking quite the same way about it.

00:54:28.500 - 00:54:41.820

I haven't heard my sons say anything like that, actually. But actually it feels very personal. Yeah, I don't think they take it quite so personally. No, because I think probably our role naturally in nature

00:54:41.820 - 00:54:54.820

is to nurture the children and the half and the, you know, that sort of thing, yes. But as I say, I was just talking to Charlie outside just now, because he was in a children's home as well.

00:54:54.880 - 00:55:11.240

He's always there every day, it's called, you know. And he was in one of the Church of England children's homes. And I said, he said, he's 82 as well, he's younger than me. I said, I'm more frightened now than I was when the war started.

00:55:11.340 - 00:55:28.120

I said, when we were both about nine. Because everybody was so frightened, all the adults, the fear everywhere. We were in Scotland then. And he was saying he remembers sleeping under a big iron table.

00:55:28.540 - 00:55:40.720

They were called Anderson Shelters, they were made. And that whole family would be underneath that with a bucket, you know. And bits and pieces of food. You could be there for several days while the bombers were going on.

00:55:41.640 - 00:55:56.240

And I said, I'm feeling that fear now that I used to feel then. You know, the way things are going. And he was saying the same, yes. And I never thought it would end up like this.

00:55:56.320 - 00:56:06.700

I thought things would get better. But I don't think they really have, have they? Unless we get a bit of divine intervention or something. Yes.

00:56:07.080 - 00:56:17.060

So do you think we've learned from things like Green and Common? Well, that I don't know. I'll have to wait and see what comes out of all these interviews really. What people say.

00:56:21.620 - 00:56:33.200

I've certainly learned, but not necessarily from that, from the whole thing. You know, sort of doing women's studies as well. Women to a lot. That's a fascinating course to do actually.

00:56:33.700 - 00:56:40.800

It covers everything. Absolutely everything. Really, really good. Yes, I'm so glad I chose that.

00:56:41.260 - 00:56:47.980

But you're doing English literature? I am now, but I did my Masters in Women's Studies. Oh, did you? I did, yes, here.

00:56:48.840 - 00:57:04.200

Is that how you came to get this interviewing? In a very kind of broad round way. I worked with one of the organisers on a project about suffrage. We went round and interviewed women about their responses to it today.

00:57:05.680 - 00:57:17.980

But we were put together because she's a theatre maker and she's very interested in staging women's experiences that have been lost or covered up in history. So we both kind of have that shared interest

00:57:17.980 - 00:57:38.080

and then were put together by a theatre to go and do this project together. So from working there she's then brought me into this one. I've got a woman friend who does plays about the canals and takes them round, you see, yes.

00:57:38.980 - 00:57:52.240

And I've got to ring her this week about something. So it's very interesting, the story of the women on the boats you see as well that took over from the men that went away. That's another whole of it.

00:57:52.240 - 00:58:03.600

But it's only because I'm older. I'm not particularly clever. I've just got all this junk inside me, you see. It gathers most, you know, just as you get the experiences, you know.

00:58:03.860 - 00:58:15.940

But I suppose you're open to it and so you hear it and you see it and then you can share it with other people. There are lots of people who would have heard or come into contact with these women's experiences

00:58:15.940 - 00:58:23.780

who for them it wouldn't have been important and they wouldn't have remembered them. So the fact that you've actually taken them on board and remembered them and are sharing them with other people,

00:58:23.880 - 00:58:33.640

I think that's really remarkable. I think it's because of my family upbringing, you know, and the age that I last saw my mother and not knowing where I'd been taken and why.

00:58:34.700 - 00:58:51.540

I used to do counselling for people who'd been adopted or fostering, being reunited, which is a whole huge subject, loaded, you know. So I did it for about 15 years with a people called NORCAP,

00:58:53.240 - 00:59:09.860

National Organisation for Counselling Adoptees and their... Oh, I can't remember what it is. And this thing that came very much up when we used to talk about it was my niece has got two adopted children.

00:59:10.040 - 00:59:15.500

I was telling her and she said, they're always listening. They're always listening. And that was me.

00:59:15.600 - 00:59:26.020

I'd always be listening at the top. Because they'd been taken away from their mother, you know, and remembered her and didn't know why and all that. But I was always listening.

00:59:26.560 - 00:59:37.780

And I'll never forget one day, I was listening to my mother, as I call her, talking to her sister about me and saying how much she hated me. In fact, she said, I detest her, you know.

00:59:37.780 - 00:59:49.800

Oh, dear. I mean, it's awful, isn't it? Really awful. But she was one of those very doers, not quite the word,

00:59:50.240 - 00:59:59.780

very, very hard Welsh women, you know. They're cambic, aren't they? Quite sort of bitter. I'd like to beat her.

00:59:59.860 - 01:00:09.280

If I could beat her in heaven, I'd like to beat her and say, you know, why did you hate me? What had I done wrong? And I'd like to beat my real mother and say,

01:00:09.340 - 01:00:22.480

why was I taken away from you, you know? But I woke up the other morning, because I was thinking about this Greenham thing, and my husband, we were divorced before he died,

01:00:22.620 - 01:00:34.780

but we were separated for about five years. And we remained friends, because I was living on a boat, you know, and he used to lend me his car and things like that. And I used to meet him about once a week, go for a drink with him.

01:00:34.780 - 01:00:44.540

And we had three children in common, you know. And he was a poet as well, a published poet. He was a very, very brilliant man. And I woke up the other morning and I thought,

01:00:44.940 - 01:00:53.420

oh, I wish I could sit down and talk to Michael. I wish he was here. I'd love to tell him what Jean is doing, or what my son is doing, or his son as well.

01:00:53.680 - 01:01:04.420

I'd love to be able to tell them what everybody's doing, you know, in the family. I don't know why I suddenly thought of that, you know. He's been gone a long time,

01:01:04.560 - 01:01:14.360

but it's because all of this is swirling around at the moment, all this nonsense that's going on, you know. Yeah. But you had a happy childhood, did you?

01:01:14.420 - 01:01:21.600

I did, yes. Well, my parents did split up, so I don't see my father. Not at all? Not at all, no, no.

01:01:22.640 - 01:01:38.240

But my mum and her sister have been very supportive and very caring and made me feel very safe and loved. So, you know, I feel like I... It was difficult, as it always is when your parents separate,

01:01:38.420 - 01:01:47.200

but on the whole, happy, yes. Yeah. And now I'm very happy, and I think a lot of that is from the support and the, you know,

01:01:47.620 - 01:01:56.580

the love that they gave me when I was younger. And don't you find doing women's studies helped you as well? Because there's so much... I did, I found that very useful,

01:01:56.580 - 01:02:05.500

especially when we had our discussions, you know. I found it very, very helpful listening to other people's experiences. Absolutely. Yeah.

01:02:05.560 - 01:02:14.160

Yes, to be around like-minded people who see the value in... Yeah. Or just share your values, really, and your interest and belief in women...

01:02:14.160 - 01:02:18.160

Yeah, that's right. ..and their ability to do... Yeah. ..incredible...

01:02:18.160 - 01:02:23.460

Yeah. ..incredible things. I think we started off... I think there were about 20 originally that started the course,

01:02:23.460 - 01:02:36.180

and I think we ended up with about seven or eight people drifted off. But one of them, she was a firewoman, a fire... ..Jo, she was just amazing. And she became the sort of...

01:02:36.180 - 01:02:45.760

Not the mother figure, but the leader. She was strong, you know. I remember once somebody had slipped on the stairs and was in danger of throwing me back with her,

01:02:45.900 - 01:02:55.640

and she came and she grabbed hold of me, picked me up and moved me out. She was amazing. But she went back to do her MA afterwards.

01:02:56.100 - 01:03:04.820

I didn't want to go back, you know. No. But do you get good food where you are? Um, it's mixed.

01:03:04.940 - 01:03:12.200

So I'm vegan now. I used to be vegetarian and that was OK, but now, being vegan, they're not very good at accommodating... Not yet, no?

01:03:12.280 - 01:03:16.800

..it yet. They're getting better, slowly. Well, I've always been vegetarian, but all my...

01:03:18.140 - 01:03:30.740

..most of my family are vegan now, you know. And, in fact, my daughter, who used to really... Because I've never liked meat, you know, I've never wanted meat, but she used to be a really big meat eater

01:03:30.740 - 01:03:40.040

and she suddenly became vegan last year and I was a bit worried that she wouldn't be, but she's a marvellous cook. And now both her children, you know,

01:03:40.360 - 01:03:47.420

the 25-year-old and her children, they've become vegan. They're all vegan down there. We had a vegan Christmas. Yeah.

01:03:48.940 - 01:03:54.680

That'll make... I'm just thinking, when Becca hears this, who's one of the organisers, she's a vegan as well. Yeah.

01:03:54.800 - 01:04:05.740

So she'll be loving that we've managed to get to veganism. It really crops up everywhere, doesn't it? My son, my eldest son, he's... He is.

01:04:06.160 - 01:04:18.440

But Ian, Ian and I love food. We love cakes and we love cheese and cream. And he said he can't imagine going to somebody's house and somebody's made a lovely cake

01:04:18.440 - 01:04:30.740

and not being able to have it, you know. So we're sticking with that because we love cooking, you know. So I do have two eggs a week. But I just love cooking anyway.

01:04:31.400 - 01:04:42.860

I mean, I bet some of it's awful, some of the food, you know. But, no, we had a lovely Christmas, you know. But her husband eats whatever she's cooked because she's such a wonderful cook.

01:04:43.060 - 01:04:59.140

But he's got a shelf at the top of the big fridge, that's one of his high ones, with a cloth over it. She cooked him a ham and a small beef thing at Christmas. And I couldn't even stand the smell of it in the kitchen.

01:04:59.460 - 01:05:07.380

I'm exactly the same. And she's cooked all of that for him and it's on the top shelf covered with a cloth. He was out there making his sandwiches.

01:05:09.420 - 01:05:20.800

I don't think he'd ever change. He's half Jamaican and I think he'd be losing his manhood if he became Jamaican, became a vegan. It's ever so tied up, isn't it?

01:05:20.820 - 01:05:35.260

It's fascinating, vegetarian and veganism and masculinity. When you start to unpick it, it's so interesting. Isn't it? Yeah. In fact, I went to W.H. Smith's in Banbury the other day.

01:05:35.260 - 01:05:44.700

I don't suppose there are that many. Well, I didn't think there would be many. All the shelves were vegetarian cookery, but I've never seen so many.

01:05:45.320 - 01:05:53.740

And the magazines, it's vegan food. It's become very, very big, hasn't it? And of course, it's a lot cheaper as well. Of course.

01:05:53.840 - 01:06:07.100

A lot cheaper and a lot healthier, isn't it? Yeah. But, no, I have a portion of cheese and I have some eggs and I do like making cakes, you know.

01:06:07.660 - 01:06:19.080

Gina's not a vegan, my half-Japanese granddaughter, but because she's been around vegetarianism all her life, you know, she tends to do that. And when she comes to me,

01:06:19.140 - 01:06:32.680

she comes with a big plastic carrier bag full of food for me. She always comes via Marks. I said, stay where you are a minute at the gate. I was a lovely wicker basket

01:06:32.680 - 01:06:44.080

and I put all the food in the basket with a cloth over it. I took a picture and I said, oh, Grandma, what big eyes you've got. Yeah, but she's a lovely cook as well.

01:06:44.380 - 01:06:50.180

Yeah, she's the one that used to work here. Yeah. She's good. She's gorgeous. Yeah.

01:06:51.880 - 01:07:05.200

I never talk about politics with her at all. I do with the others a lot, you know. But, yeah, she's got her own place in London now. Both my granddaughters have.

01:07:05.300 - 01:07:15.540

They've got good jobs, you know. It worries me because I can't see them having families at this rate. But I said to the other day, I had three children when I was your age.

01:07:15.620 - 01:07:24.740

You'd better hurry up, you know. You should make a lovely mother. I think because she was an only child, maybe, I don't know.

01:07:24.740 - 01:07:33.320

I don't know why. Maybe it's part of this Japanese thinking in her mind. I don't know. But, yeah.

01:07:34.280 - 01:07:41.920

You must have children. They're wonderful. And grandchildren. I mean, they're just something else, you know.

01:07:42.520 - 01:07:53.160

And you've got so much more time to teach them and read poetry and things like that. Yeah. My daughter posts every year for Armistice.

01:07:53.160 - 01:08:03.260

She puts a picture of me. And they call it Wendy's Words of Wisdom. I really see it when it's done. They put a picture of me at some stage in my life.

01:08:03.640 - 01:08:12.200

And I will read one of the war poems, you see. I do that every year. So I wanted to make sure I did something. What is the date of the anniversary?

01:08:13.220 - 01:08:24.920

Because I want to put that nice picture of me on the Greenham Day on the website, you see, for everyone to see. And I'll think of words to put in it.

01:08:29.020 - 01:08:36.840

11th of November. 11th of November. Right. I might even have time to write a poem. 11th of November.

01:08:37.080 - 01:08:48.720

Is anything happening? Is there going to be anything in London or on the television? I imagine there will be. Nothing's come up immediately now.

01:08:48.980 - 01:08:57.120

I suppose it's still a long way. Or maybe they'll have regional. There must be something. I'm sure.

01:08:57.520 - 01:09:00.100

Absolutely. Greenham.