00:00:00.000 - 00:00:37.880

So, how did you get involved in the peace movement in the first place? When did that happen? I was about 23 or 24 and I had just really started to move on a political lesbian scene. The big demo had just happened, the million women, and they put a call out that they were desperate for women to go to Greenham. At that time they were getting evicted all the time and women were leaving in droves.

00:00:38.060 - 00:01:12.080

When was that in the... 84, I think. It may have been 83, but it was 83, 84. I took my daughter and went. It's quite funny because before I went I ironed all my clothes and packed them all nicely. I remember getting there and there were people there that had children that didn't have much in pyjamas and I was shocked.

00:01:13.280 - 00:01:38.820

A few years later I was a completely different person. It was a real, it was wonderful actually, it was wonderful. I don't think I went to save the world, I went to save myself. I've said to a lot of people actually, I think anyone who was there had a real need and they've looked at me as though there's something wrong with me.

00:01:39.220 - 00:02:15.320

But I do think that, I think that saving the world was a by-product, I think we were there to save ourselves. And to be a young emerging lesbian in the early 80s, to go from that isolation to find your people was truly incredible. And was that based on the gates that you were, because different gates had different... Yes, so my concept at the time, not wanting to offend anyone, was Yellowgate was full of mad people.

00:02:16.780 - 00:02:43.680

And Bluegate was full of working class dykes, which is where my sort of spiritual home was. But I had a child and it wasn't suitable to have a child there, so we re-established Redgate. I think Redgate was there originally but it wasn't there when I was there, so we re-established Redgate because it was suitable for children. And then women who wanted to be involved in childcare could come there as well.

00:02:44.500 - 00:03:16.200

But I must say I did hang out quite a lot at Bluegate and I loved the Rockabee, which was the pub. Needless to say I don't drink at all now, I did all my drinking in my youth. And Greengate was for the airy-fairy people, so that was my understanding of it. I did know people, and Orangegate, I knew Orangegate as well, so I knew people from all the gates but mainly Redgate.

00:03:17.580 - 00:03:42.320

So was it what you expected when you arrived? I had no idea what to expect, I had absolutely no idea what to expect. I mean it was completely outside of my experience. At that time I'd only just discovered political, politics actually, politics full stop. I mean actually I had always, I suppose, been a, but no I wasn't, I wasn't aware, I wasn't aware.

00:03:42.960 - 00:04:14.240

I remember going to a lesbian mothers conference, that must have been about 83 or again 84, it was in Brighton, and somebody had organised it. And I remember being on the train travelling up there and lots of people had all got the same train up. And I was talking to this woman and I said to her, oh, I don't know what class I am. And she said, oh my God, you're working class, yes. And I thought, oh right, okay.

00:04:14.540 - 00:04:44.840

And I'd never even considered my class, so I really wasn't that, I wasn't very self-aware actually at all I don't think at that stage. Because I had a very fragmented childhood, I was in and out of care a lot, and I didn't really have any sense of self to speak of. I got a lot of my sense of self out of Greenham. And what do you mean sense of self, what does that mean, sort of belonging type thing?

00:04:47.700 - 00:05:07.840

Well, I think I always had to be what people wanted. I constantly moved, I went to 11 schools, so I constantly moved. And every time, and then I'd go back to my mother and then I'd go back into care, then I'd go back to my mother and then I'd go back into care. I usually only probably was with my mother a few months.

00:05:07.840 - 00:05:34.860

So everyone had different rules and standards, and what was acceptable in one house wasn't in another. And my mother did actually think she was the queen. And she, her parents aspired to be upper middle class. And she had all these really middle class values, like we all spoke beautifully, we all ate beautifully,

00:05:34.860 - 00:05:58.440

we knew how to lay a table properly. It was as though when we were living with mother, we were waiting to, you know, like princesses waiting to be discovered. It was almost like that. So, and then I'd go into care and either be with normal working class people without double standards, or really quite posh people.

00:05:58.440 - 00:06:18.380

Sort of, so, I learnt to fit in to what was expected. But within that I lost myself. So I didn't have a very good idea about who I was. And then of course, being a lesbian as well, sort of messed that up a bit more.

00:06:18.940 - 00:06:40.040

So, yeah, it was, it was a wonderful time for me. And who were you when you discovered who you were? What were the things about yourself that you discovered? What did I discover? I don't know.

00:06:40.040 - 00:07:01.860

I think one of the things that struck me talking to other women is how the women only set up allowed them to express themselves in a much more confident way. Yes, yes. So they weren't asking permission of anybody. Yes.

00:07:03.140 - 00:07:22.560

And I think that's very, that's unusual now, let alone in the 80s. Amazing. But I think actually we were all really, really messed up. And really, really searching for, looking for ourselves and that we did have a safe environment. And we, you know, we believed some really strange stuff.

00:07:22.680 - 00:07:43.620

You know, we believed all women were wonderful and, you know, it was like quite naive and unrealistic in lots of ways. But it was so healing. So, so very healing as well. Yeah, I think it's, it's interesting that, that you don't use the word feminist. Because you'd think that an all women camp would be, would be quite strongly feminist.

00:07:43.860 - 00:08:06.080

Or maybe, maybe it was different camps that were feminist. Well we were strongly feminist. We were really, really strongly feminist. Almost to a separatist point. But I don't think that the politics that I had then are necessarily the politics I have now.

00:08:06.680 - 00:08:33.800

Although I'd still consider myself to be a feminist, quite a strong feminist. But I think I had a lot of anger towards men, quite rightly. And I think that I had never been allowed to talk, you know, talk about the abuse you suffered as a child. We weren't allowed to talk those things were secrets.

00:08:34.280 - 00:08:51.860

And then suddenly you're in an environment where everybody's talking about it. And in actual fact, I don't think I even came to terms with my abuse until I was quite a lot older. I think it's a trickle down effect. Yeah, well, talking therapies.

00:08:51.940 - 00:09:00.800

Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, these days, people understand. But again, in those days, no. No, we didn't have a counselling.

00:09:00.840 - 00:09:16.300

Well, there might have been, but working class people didn't get it. And I think it was quite stigmatising as well. I think people thought, oh, counselling, what's the matter with you sort of thing. You know, you're having human responses and you need some help to walk through them.

00:09:16.600 - 00:09:27.980

Exactly, yes. So how old was your daughter at the time? She was about two. She was born in March 1982.

00:09:30.300 - 00:09:44.940

So, yes, she was about two. She loved it. It was lovely. It was a lovely place to bring up children, actually. A, because there were lots of people that were involved, or women that were involved,

00:09:45.120 - 00:10:04.640

so there was always somebody there. And there were other children at the gate, so she had people to play with. Yeah, it was just very nice, I think. So what was a sort of typical day in terms of how you...

00:10:04.640 - 00:10:25.980

Well, some days we'd be evicted four times. So it was not like it was in the early days when people were established. So literally everything that you had, you had to be able to wheel it away. And we had a pram that we put loads of stuff on.

00:10:26.380 - 00:10:46.740

So we would literally build a bender at bedtime, or sleep in one big bender. And occasionally people would come and visit and build their own bender, or bring a tent or whatever. But generally we all slept in one big bender, because it was just easier to pack up and move. So, you know, we did things like we dug ship pits,

00:10:47.340 - 00:11:06.880

and went and got water, and, yeah, I mean, sat around the fire. And we used to have, the men from Bristol came with wood, I think that was on a Thursday. And Irish Mary and her husband Fred, I think he was called,

00:11:06.960 - 00:11:25.560

used to come on a Tuesday or something and bring us, people used to come and bring us food, you know. So, and there were some, I mean, they're the only regulars that I really remember, but they were really, yeah, they were lovely people. So, that sort of did. And on a Saturday night we went up the Rockaby.

00:11:26.040 - 00:11:41.200

Every now and again we'd all be banned, but then they'd let us back again because they needed the money. So was that in Newbury? Yeah, Newbury, yeah. It was like walking distance from the camp. Although if you were lucky you got a lift, because nobody actually wanted to walk.

00:11:43.300 - 00:12:01.000

So, and, yeah, I mean, it was all really about survival. It was about cooking and shopping. I mean, obviously people had to go to the shops. That in itself could be quite traumatic, because people were very, very horrible.

00:12:01.840 - 00:12:22.060

I can remember once being in the laundrette, washing and drying our clothes, and, you know, this guy threatening to smash our faces, and calling us filthy, and spitting on us. So going into town shopping was quite traumatic. But, you know, we did it. It wasn't that bad.

00:12:22.660 - 00:12:44.860

Why do you think they had such an extreme reaction? Well, I think obviously the media had a big part to play in it. And I suppose, by and large, having an American airbase in your town meant that it boosted the economy. And it's a very, like, quite a Tory area.

00:12:47.940 - 00:13:05.020

Thatcher was on the throne, so, you know, yeah. They epitomised a lot of things that they didn't like. Yes, exactly. So we were, you know, like, Daily Mail readers, a nightmare. So, yeah, of course they didn't like us.

00:13:05.020 - 00:13:34.140

And what did you think of the way the media covered it? How was that? I quite liked it. Yeah, I quite liked the idea of being an outcast from society, and an anarchist, and all those things. And it sort of gave me a reason to be me, really. It meant that, you know, I was young, and I was angry, and I was messed up.

00:13:35.720 - 00:13:54.900

And I think a lot of us were. And it was great. Yeah, it was wonderful. We were like, yay! You know, I went, we used to go into London and go on all the marches, smash the police bill, and stop the claws, and all the sort of demos, and the gay prides, and I mean, it was, it was wonderful.

00:13:54.900 - 00:14:13.920

And those are the things that I wouldn't have done on my own. And because I lived in Plymouth at the time, I didn't live in London, I lived in Plymouth. So, you know, it's another planet, Plymouth, to London, and all that was going on politically there was like, wow, compared to Plymouth. So, yeah.

00:14:15.660 - 00:14:26.640

So, when you arrived with your daughter, which gate did you sort of start off in? Yellow, obviously. Right, okay. Everyone started at yellow, I'm sure.

00:14:27.160 - 00:14:31.680

Well, in my experience. People who didn't really know anything about Greenland. I guess it's like the front door, isn't it? Yeah.

00:14:31.900 - 00:14:48.420

Yeah. Yeah, and they sort of rocked up at yellow. And, you know, even though there wasn't a hierarchy, there was a hierarchy, yeah. And you sort of soon learnt, you soon found your place, if you like, within that hierarchy.

00:14:48.420 - 00:15:47.020

And I definitely was drawn to Bluegate and, you know, thought Yellowgate were all mad and Greengate were all mad but in a different way. So what was the Yellowgate madness? Um, they were very hard. They were very hard core and there was this woman who I imagine probably had paranoid schizophrenia who was living there at the time and she was very mad and, um, every now and again she'd get sectioned and they'd go and get her out and bring her back and things and, and, and, you know, I use the word, when I'm talking about mad, I mean, that might sound dreadful and I realise it isn't probably the language I should be using but it was my experience at the time and.

00:15:47.600 - 00:16:32.040

It must have been quite scary having a child. It was really scary. I was really, I was really frightened of Yellowgate women and their, like, really sort of radical ways, if you like, because they were very, very radical. And for me, a young novice from Plymouth, it was, it was scary stuff. But then, of course, when I went to, um, when I went round to Bluegate, I was scared, I was scared for everybody actually, thinking about it. They were scary as well because there was a lot of, like, um, dykes there from, er, Glasgow and Northern Ireland and places, you know, and they had these really hard accents and, and I was quite scared. But, they were the women that I loved.

00:16:32.040 - 00:17:30.220

They were the, like, they were who I wanted to be, um, which now, looking back, tells me a lot about who I was because clearly I was probably more like them because they were very angry and sort of, er, yeah. So, but I knew that I had kids and I couldn't be in that environment and I needed to create a safer environment for them. So, that's quite a big deal, creating a, another, you know, setting up another, or it sounds like it's a big deal, setting up another gay club. Well, not really because, how did it come about? I think, my cousin was, started to come and visit me. Um, so we had only met when she was an adult. Um, she was, she's a couple of years older than me. But then when she came to Greenham and I was there, she started to visit me. And, er, she was bringing her kids as well.

00:17:30.460 - 00:17:48.460

And what did her husband think of that? Well, he didn't like it much at all. But, I mean, realistically, their marriage was already over. Um, and it, it was through Greenham that she found out that she could get benefits. Right. That she didn't actually have to stay in a marriage that she was dreadfully unhappy in.

00:17:48.540 - 00:17:57.940

Right. She didn't realise that. She was entitled to benefits on her own right. Yes. Yeah. And she didn't know that. So she'd sort of stayed in a marriage that she wasn't happy in for a long time.

00:17:58.160 - 00:18:31.420

Because she didn't realise that she could escape. So, she then went on and escaped. So, um, I imagine, we sort of wanted somewhere for the kids to play safely. And so we said, oh, let's go and reopen Redgate. And, er, that's what we did. So, um, yeah. And actually, um, recently she went and met another woman that was at Redgate with us who's living on Dartmoor now. And, er, she's coming up to stay in a couple of months.

00:18:31.560 - 00:18:50.360

Oh, lovely. So, um, I'll get to see her. I haven't seen her for millions of years. So, there's, um, a few people that seem to be, they seem to be coming out of the woodwork. Because it seemed to be years and years and years that I haven't seen anybody that was at Greenham.

00:18:50.420 - 00:19:11.520

And then slowly they, with, maybe all this stuff is sort of unearthing them. Because I know people who've been at Greenham, or women that have been at Greenham, but nobody that I knew when I was there, other than my cousin who obviously I knew because we're related. But, yeah, so, I think. Yeah, maybe it's the hundred years of the suffragettes as well.

00:19:11.700 - 00:19:42.880

Yeah. Because it was that, and the fact that Helen John, who was one of the original women who started Greenham, she died. And so the two women who were running this project put in the bid to the Heritage Lottery and said, you know, if we don't, you know, why is everybody going crazy for the suffragettes and nobody cares about Greenham? You know, it's the same, you know, they're doing it with the same revolutionary acts, you know, but different, obviously.

00:19:43.260 - 00:19:58.320

Yes. Yes. I did have a gun held to my head once, which was pretty terrifying. Tell me about that, Tamsin. You can't just say that and not say anything else. Well, we used to do, I mean, really, we used to do it for fun as much as anything and to annoy them.

00:19:58.540 - 00:20:40.120

But actually, I later learned that evidently there was evidently a prize for the first person to shoot a Greenham woman in amongst the American Air Force. So, but we'd gone into the base one night, because we just used to do it just to show how easy it was to do it, yeah. And we'd done it a few times, not being caught, but this time we were caught and we were like running through the base and suddenly we heard all the, saw all the lights and we knew they were coming and we were like, oh my God. And there's nowhere to run because we were in the middle of nowhere.

00:20:41.340 - 00:21:04.620

And they pulled up and jumped out of their cars and had their guns over the car doors and they were like, stop or we'll shoot, yeah. Now, your natural reaction is to run. The last thing you want to do is to stop. And obviously it's the most terrifying thing that you can ever imagine.

00:21:05.880 - 00:21:29.520

And I couldn't stop, but I just walked slowly because everything in me told me that I had to put distance. And so I just walked slowly and they ran up and they went, wham, and kicked my legs out from under me. And I smashed onto the floor. And then they took us to, right round the other side to Yellowgate and kept us there and interrogated us.

00:21:29.520 - 00:21:54.460

They weren't that interested because, I mean, I gave a false name and they weren't that interested in who we really were. They knew that that wasn't my name and they just kept us there and then they let us out. And then we had like miles to walk round back to Redgate, that sort of thing. But it was the most, yeah, having a gun held at you is not fun and you've got no idea how you're going to react until it actually happens.

00:21:55.460 - 00:22:26.700

But believe me, when they say stop or I'll shoot and I see it on telly and I think, hmm, yes, I understand when people don't stop. So what was your relationship, because it seems that there were different relationships with Newbury police than the MOD police and with the American Air Force and the bailiffs. So what were your relationships like? So we didn't really have that much to do with the Americans unless we got caught.

00:22:27.420 - 00:22:49.180

Yeah, I mean we were caught by the Americans but on the outskirts we had squaddies. And generally they were, they were quite nice. I mean I remember once talking, chatting to one of the squaddies and he said his sister really wanted to come and be a Greenham woman. And I remember giving him a friendship bracelet to give to her, yeah.

00:22:49.180 - 00:23:10.760

So it was, it was a very mixed bag. Other people would just be really rude and offensive and, yeah. And the bailiffs, I mean, the bailiffs, they just used to say we're not political, we're just doing our job. And there was sort of two of them and we knew them really well.

00:23:10.760 - 00:23:27.860

And somebody would come round on a push bike and shout, bailiffs are coming. And we'd start packing everything up and then all we had to do was walk onto the road with the stuff. And then they couldn't touch anything because we weren't where, yeah. Trespassing, yeah, whatever they decided you were doing.

00:23:28.060 - 00:23:46.780

So, I mean it was alright really. I mean they were like, some days they'd have bad days and they'd be pigs. But most of the time, actually, they weren't that bad really. When I look back on it as, as an adult, at the time we thought they were pretty horrendous.

00:23:46.900 - 00:24:09.500

But I don't think when I look back they were that bad really. They, they were just doing their jobs and, you know, I think one of them was nastier than the other. But it could have been good cop, bad cop, you know, who knows. So, but every now and again they would, like at one time we'd dug a, a pit and we'd put all our, erm,

00:24:10.480 - 00:24:33.120

coal boxes in the earth and covered it with earth and whatever and kept all our stuff in there and then we didn't have to move it and somehow they found out about it. I, I often think they had spies in amongst us and they came and got it and got all our food and everything. Erm, and you know, we used to like have a shit pit that we didn't put toilet paper down the shit pit

00:24:33.120 - 00:24:48.460

because we wanted to maintain, erm, the natural, you know, whatever. So that was. Like a composting toilet or something. Yeah, yeah, but I mean it literally was a shit pit. It wasn't a composting toilet. It was a hole that we did shits in and covered it with mud.

00:24:49.200 - 00:25:05.140

Erm, but we had a bag that we put all our tissue in and then we took the tissue and disposed of that. So it wasn't in the ground. Erm, but yeah, I mean, just becomes part of your day, day. I mean, when it was raining it was a pain.

00:25:06.460 - 00:25:19.800

Sometimes, you know, it'd be raining and you'd be evicted four times. It really wasn't fun. But that's how it was. How long did you stay there? Erm, I think I was probably pretty much there.

00:25:20.360 - 00:25:39.600

But I mean, we would go off into London and, and go off and do things. But I was probably pretty much there for a, full time for about a year. So I would have gone there, erm, in the spring. So it would have been about the March and

00:25:42.700 - 00:26:03.480

And I probably wasn't there November, December, January, February much. I would have probably gone for a night or two cos it was just too cold. And we were being evicted a lot. Erm, and then the next, and then the spring again.

00:26:03.620 - 00:26:25.240

I, I would have gone again and done it all again. But I think quite a lot of us sort of moved away from camp and began to create our own communities outside. What, back in London you mean?

00:26:25.520 - 00:26:38.280

Well, in London or wherever, wherever you lived really because people came from all over the world. And it was all over the world. I mean, you know, I went and stayed with, in a squat in, erm, The Hague.

00:26:39.040 - 00:26:51.520

Beautiful, beautiful squat with Greenham women. And I had, er, women come to visit me in Plymouth that I'd met at Greenham that came from, and there was a lot of Dutch women there. Dutch and Spanish and, er, Swedish.

00:26:52.060 - 00:27:07.520

Yeah, quite a lot of, er, it really opened my world, yeah, as well. Because up until that point I hadn't really met anyone foreign. Because it was all very much about foreigners and foreign food and foreign this and foreign that in those days.

00:27:07.980 - 00:27:29.080

Erm, and being from Devon, I, it was a very white, erm, very white community. So, for me, to meet people that weren't white was quite a revelation. I was quite scared, yeah. And, er, I think, it's quite a good insight to have actually

00:27:29.080 - 00:27:43.840

because when people are so racist, I think a lot of that is actual fear of the unknown. Mm. So it's not a bad experience to have had because I think it can help me reach gaps. Mm.

00:27:44.260 - 00:28:00.920

So, obviously having lived in London for quite a while now, it's not, not afraid any more. Mm. But, yeah. So how, how did the, because it, it, it's famously a, a, a collective but with, as you say, there's a,

00:28:01.080 - 00:28:17.260

there was no hierarchy but there was a hierarchy. Yeah. How, how did, how, was that effective? I mean, how, how were sort of conflicts managed and things like that? Erm, I think people moved gates.

00:28:18.100 - 00:28:35.980

So, that was one way that conflict was managed. Right. Erm, but I think, I mean, I can't really remember that much conflict where we were because people came and went.

00:28:37.040 - 00:29:03.780

So, you know, there was quite a lot of people that lived in Bristol for instance and they'd come and go and, and then we have, you know, then we have the visitors who came and people who came for a night or two and so there was like a constant stream of people coming in and out and they brought with them, erm, a whole new ambience really.

00:29:04.160 - 00:29:37.240

So, if you got, if somebody was getting on your nerves, the chances are that they would bugger off anyway in a few days or you would go and stay at Bluegate for a couple of days or you'd go back to Plymouth and we used to hitch. I mean, we used to hitch everywhere. So when I think about it now, I'm like, ooh. So, erm, yeah, I mean, there were, there were real problems, I know there were, but not really at our gate.

00:29:39.180 - 00:29:57.420

So, but maybe we were, erm, I don't know, maybe we weren't as hardcore as some of the other gates. I don't know. Did, did you deal with, with, did you have anything to do with the money in the bank accounts? Oh God, no. So that can, I think that sometimes that can be a, a source of conflict.

00:29:57.540 - 00:30:17.900

No, no, we didn't have anything to do with any of that. I mean, erm, I think the most exciting thing that I, that happened when I was there was that Bruce Kent came and gave, you know, the C&D man. Was his name Bruce Kent or was that Superman's name? No, no, that's Clark Kent. So, you know, you're right. I'll edit that a bit if it's wrong.

00:30:18.700 - 00:30:43.180

He brought us all, erm, I think, I think it was watermelons. He came with loads of watermelons or something like that, if I remember. So, and there was always a rumour that Yoko Ono was going to come and evidently she did, but I never saw her. So, erm, yeah. But no, I wasn't involved in any of that organisational stuff and I wouldn't have wanted to be either. Yeah.

00:30:43.480 - 00:30:57.300

So. So, were you arrested? Were you, obviously you were involved in civil disobedience because going onto the camp itself is, you know, is, er. Well yeah, I was arrested for that but not charged. Right.

00:30:57.680 - 00:31:08.800

So they'd arrest you and then they'd un-arrest you and throw you out. Right. So, I mean, that happened a few times. Erm, but, no, because I think they'd realised how pointless it was arresting people.

00:31:09.120 - 00:31:32.280

Erm, I did know people who were arrested and charged. And I did pi, visit people in Holloway as well, but I don't know who. Mm. Erm, but no, no, I couldn't. I had children, so I had a child, so it was quite important to me that, erm, I wasn't. Mm.

00:31:32.380 - 00:31:44.340

Erm, so if there was anything that we were likely to get arrested doing, I would stay at home and cook the dinner. Mm. Or something. So, erm, yeah, we didn't have to be that involved.

00:31:44.520 - 00:31:51.200

Yeah. Yeah. There's no, there's no point in being a, a hero if it's going to ruin your child's life. Exactly, exactly, yeah, so.

00:31:51.860 - 00:32:05.280

And does she remember anything about it? Not really. She looks at photographs and asks why she had that awful haircut and why I dressed her like a boy. Erm, so, apart from that, and like, don't ever tell anyone. Yeah.

00:32:06.100 - 00:32:22.020

Things like that, so. But no, she was quite mortified by the whole experience, erm, as an, a, yeah. It's quite funny because, you know, both my girls are all like designer clothes and lipstick. Mm. So, er, my son actually is quite alternative.

00:32:22.380 - 00:32:30.100

Mm. But both my girls are so the opposite of me. Mm. So the opposite, and everything matches and whatever, yeah.

00:32:30.340 - 00:32:40.800

So it's quite, it's quite funny really. Mm. But. Yeah, it's, er, yes, you kind of think that sort of thing will inevitably rub off but, er.

00:32:40.800 - 00:32:47.420

Yeah, no. Maybe, maybe it has but in a slightly different way. Yeah, I think in a slightly different way definitely. Mm.

00:32:47.420 - 00:33:02.240

And I, actually I can see elements of the girls, of me in both my girls. Erm, you know, they're both very focused and driven. Erm, so, and they almost certainly get that from me. I'm bloody minded.

00:33:03.560 - 00:33:27.800

Erm, but, and whilst they are, you know, my, my youngest daughter is like thirteen. She left school at about thirteen, fourteen, she refused to go. And I used to take her to work with me because I was the boss so I could. And she left school with no GS, no, no qualifications, nothing.

00:33:28.060 - 00:33:37.940

Mm. Made up for some qualifications. Mm. Erm, got a job as a receptionist and worked her way up to the job she has now.

00:33:38.160 - 00:33:43.120

Mm. And she's really, really successful. Mm. So, erm.

00:33:43.120 - 00:33:48.980

You see women are imprisoned for that now, for their children. They tried. They threatened to. Yeah, they threatened to do that to me.

00:33:49.480 - 00:34:00.280

And I used to say, well how, how are you, you know, how am I meant to get her there? Mm. Yeah. So, erm, it was, yeah, they, I mean I really, really had to fight and fight and fight.

00:34:00.440 - 00:34:06.000

And they threatened me with all sorts of things. Mm. But they didn't actually do it. Erm, yeah.

00:34:07.140 - 00:34:16.400

So. That's just how it was. Mm. So, erm, how many of you were there at Redgate eventually?

00:34:16.580 - 00:34:25.040

So if you and your cousin kind of went off and set it up, whether, did it, did There was loads of us. people gravitate towards, people and children gravitate towards you. Erm.

00:34:27.440 - 00:34:37.480

I think people who wanted a nice laid back Mm.

00:34:37.700 - 00:34:46.760

yeah, erm Mm. gate gravitated towards us. So, I mean, we were sort of all quite working class and

00:34:47.620 - 00:34:57.220

erm Yeah, I mean there was loads of us. Absolutely loads of us. There was probably about ten core people.

00:34:57.480 - 00:35:03.220

Mm. Meryl and Mel and erm quite, I don't, I can't even remember.

00:35:03.340 - 00:35:08.620

Pip, I think one of them was and there was lots of us. Mm. And, er, people who

00:35:09.440 - 00:35:16.100

we were quite a mellow. Yeah, it was, we weren't, you know, Broodgate was quite hardcore. Mm.

00:35:16.280 - 00:35:23.220

And, er quite hectic. So nice to visit and then come away from. Yeah.

00:35:23.400 - 00:35:34.060

Yeah, but where we were, it was, you know, we'd all sit round the fire at night telling stories and playing music and singing and sort of being quite

00:35:34.900 - 00:35:42.520

quite gentle but not as airy-fairy as Greengate. Yeah. So, it was, er, yeah.

00:35:43.780 - 00:35:51.240

So, were the songs because there's a Greenham song book and there's probably about, I mean there must be nearly 50 songs in there. Yeah.

00:35:51.540 - 00:36:00.240

Was it, did you sing those? Yeah, down at Greenham Monastery funded by the KGB then. I met the woman who wrote that yesterday. Yeah.

00:36:00.440 - 00:36:05.040

Not used to it. Oh right, yeah. And, er, yes.

00:36:05.980 - 00:36:14.080

I mean there was loads, there were so many. In fact, one day I was on the South Bank in London and I went into, erm,

00:36:14.780 - 00:36:20.860

the British Film Library, some, somewhere, British, some thing on there that I can't remember what.

00:36:21.220 - 00:36:27.780

And there was a group of women singing and they were singing Greenham songs. Brilliant. And it was like, Oh my God!

00:36:27.840 - 00:36:33.580

And I said to my friend, We've got to stay, we've got to stay! And I recognised. And, and the woman said, erm,

00:36:33.640 - 00:36:38.640

these were songs we sang. And I said, At Greenham? And she said, Yes, at Greenham! And it was like, erm,

00:36:38.740 - 00:36:44.800

so there's lots and lots of them and I quite often think of them when I'm doing things. I'm like, Oh wow! Yeah.

00:36:45.240 - 00:36:50.240

Fantastic. Yeah. I think those, some of those songs are absolutely brilliant. Yeah, they are.

00:36:50.540 - 00:36:55.340

Absolutely, absolutely. Very, erm, still very relevant. Yeah, yeah.

00:36:56.300 - 00:37:02.660

Yeah, there was, yeah, and we did used to all sit around and sing them. And, er, yeah, it was,

00:37:04.640 - 00:37:11.880

yeah, it was fun. So, would you say that, why do you think that,

00:37:11.900 - 00:37:19.160

er, the legacy of Greenham hasn't been sort of carried on from then to now? Because we've got,

00:37:19.420 - 00:37:28.260

one of the volunteers that we've got in our group is a student, she's, I think she's 20, and she said she'd never heard of Greenham before she joined

00:37:28.980 - 00:37:38.720

and 70% of her friends hadn't either. When my daughter was about 17 she tried, decided she would go back to school and try and get a qualification

00:37:39.700 - 00:37:47.300

and she didn't stay because she couldn't bear it but she did try and one of the things, they had to do a project

00:37:47.300 - 00:37:53.860

and she said, Oh, I'm going to do Greenham Woman. And her teacher was really, really like, Don't be so ridiculous.

00:37:54.440 - 00:38:01.500

Who do you, how ever are you going to find anyone that's been to Greenham? And she said, Well my mother was there. And she said, Oh, well I don't think it's a suitable subject.

00:38:02.120 - 00:38:10.700

So that is the sort of thing and I'm not, but I think, I do know people who were taught it at school

00:38:10.700 - 00:38:22.620

but I can't remember who told me that. I don't know but, oh well, I mean because women innit. Women's history is ignored by and large

00:38:22.620 - 00:38:25.320

and, em, and it was, em,

00:38:26.300 - 00:38:29.560

yeah, we weren't, we weren't nice. We weren't nice girls, were we? I think,

00:38:30.060 - 00:38:36.040

probably, because there was a lot of lesbianism involved. I think that made a big difference. If we'd been em,

00:38:36.800 - 00:38:41.540

if it had been a, a middle class, straight women's movement, I'm sure

00:38:44.300 - 00:38:50.040

more would have probably come of it because even the suffragettes tended to be posh birds, didn't they.

00:38:50.540 - 00:38:53.300

That's, excuse me, so I don't know, you know.

00:38:53.300 - 00:38:57.760

It is to say. And, and, what do you think

00:38:59.620 - 00:39:04.880

could be the learning for these, for, for future generations from Green and what do you,

00:39:04.900 - 00:39:10.760

what do you think girls, I guess girls and boys but I'm, I guess I'm thinking girls particularly or young women.

00:39:18.820 - 00:39:28.160

Well, I mean, the importance of uniting for a cause.

00:39:29.040 - 00:39:35.280

Not, not division because we live in a world where we're told, you know,

00:39:35.340 - 00:39:44.080

we're too fat, too thin, too short, too tall, too clever, too thick. Yeah. Everything to separate us, separate us, separate us, separate us. And what happened at Greenham was

00:39:44.080 - 00:39:48.700

that actually we all said, we're women. Mm. And we're singing.

00:39:49.100 - 00:39:54.060

Mm. And that was it. Mm. And we supported each other

00:39:54.060 - 00:40:01.240

and we listened to each other and, and we didn't judge. So,

00:40:01.580 - 00:40:06.640

I suppose, you know, what they can learn is that you have to be dedicated

00:40:07.320 - 00:40:18.220

and you have to stop division. Mm. Yeah, I think that's a really good,

00:40:18.700 - 00:40:23.920

that's a really good point. I think we're policed a lot, aren't we? Yeah. And then we police, and then we do the policing for them.

00:40:24.080 - 00:40:27.380

Yeah, exactly, yeah. Yeah, we do. Yeah. Mm.

00:40:27.520 - 00:40:32.760

So. So do you think you became more politicised? Oh God, yeah. Yeah.

00:40:34.020 - 00:40:39.700

Definitely. Mm. I mean, you know, to this day, I'm, well, I mean, I don't think I'm that political

00:40:39.700 - 00:40:45.420

but other people do. Mm. So, you know, it's all relevant, isn't it? And, but yes, I mean, I,

00:40:46.300 - 00:40:51.160

you know, I'm in the Labour Party, I'm in Momentum, I'm in my women's CRP. Mm.

00:40:52.080 - 00:41:02.140

And, I mean, one of the things about moving to another part of the world is, if you're in, em, the Labour Party, you can just join the women's CRP

00:41:02.140 - 00:41:11.360

and you know you're going to meet women that are OK. Mm. So that's been quite OK. And, em, yeah, I mean,

00:41:12.940 - 00:41:23.800

every, you know, I'm a vegetarian and actually it's not so much for animal rights, it's for, em, the way we farm. Mm.

00:41:24.080 - 00:41:32.000

Yeah? I don't agree with the whole, the way we farm completely. So, em, yeah,

00:41:32.240 - 00:41:38.340

and the way that meat is processed is appalling and so it is animal rights but, do you know what I mean? I do.

00:41:38.560 - 00:41:43.540

Yeah. It's environmental as well. Yeah, it's environmental as well. Em, yeah, so everything, you know,

00:41:43.720 - 00:41:54.440

I recycle, I reuse. So do you think it just, it made you more, em, sort of gave you a critical analysis, you know, like a, you know,

00:41:54.600 - 00:42:03.500

just a bit more thoughtful about things rather than just, you know. Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. Yeah, I mean I never ever buy new when I can buy second hand. Mm.

00:42:03.560 - 00:42:13.040

And I give everything, you know, that I don't want I put on Food to Collect. Mm. And, em, I don't even bother,

00:42:13.300 - 00:42:20.740

even though I'm poor, em, I don't sell things, I give them away. Mm. Because I think that it,

00:42:21.300 - 00:42:27.740

what goes around comes around. And if you're open to, if you make a space, something will fill it and all that rubbish. Mm.

00:42:27.860 - 00:42:37.760

Em, so yeah, I'm a bit, bit cosmic I suppose. Sure, I think, I, I, I think there is definitely something to that and I, and I think that there is a,

00:42:38.580 - 00:42:43.420

you have to be able to look at yourself in the mirror and think, you know, Yeah. You know, I did my best.

00:42:43.420 - 00:42:47.500

Yeah. I've done my best. Exactly, yeah. I try to buy clothes in charity shops and,

00:42:47.800 - 00:42:56.540

I mean there's two reasons for that. One is I just can't afford new ones, but the other is it means that, em, you know, that they are being used properly.

00:42:56.720 - 00:43:00.360

Mm. Things are being used properly. And, er, and it's important. Mm.

00:43:00.900 - 00:43:07.940

I like, love Ebay as well. Get everything off Ebay. Charity shops and Ebay. Yeah, well it's because you don't drink,

00:43:08.060 - 00:43:16.680

you don't do that sort of three o'clock in the morning. Oh my God, what have I bought? No. So, yeah, yep.

00:43:18.220 - 00:43:25.000

So, some of the women that we've been to see, em, have said that they, that,

00:43:25.620 - 00:43:32.280

that either they or women that they knew, er, came to Greenham to, to kind of escape something else.

00:43:32.420 - 00:43:35.920

Yeah. You know, so that it, it was a movement towards, but it was also a movement away from.

00:43:35.920 - 00:43:40.920

Yes, definitely. Em, Yeah. And a lot of them have said that it was,

00:43:41.820 - 00:43:44.160

em, em, it was, the,

00:43:44.420 - 00:43:48.040

the, a lot of it was down to men, em, so whether it was

00:43:48.040 - 00:43:50.880

domestic or sexual violence, Yeah. or abuse, or,

00:43:51.300 - 00:43:55.840

em, just being controlled or dominated, like your cousin or, you know,

00:43:56.060 - 00:44:00.100

Yeah. er, was that your experience? That a lot of people,

00:44:00.320 - 00:44:04.580

you know, went there because. Yeah, we were all running away from something.

00:44:04.740 - 00:44:07.280

Yeah. And it tended to be male. Yeah. Definitely.

00:44:07.680 - 00:44:11.660

Em, yeah, we were all, we were all searching for ourselves in,

00:44:12.480 - 00:44:14.700

Yeah. as I said at the beginning. Em. I really believe that.

00:44:14.800 - 00:44:18.980

I think we all had a real, real need. Em. And em,

00:44:19.040 - 00:44:22.980

a lot of those, that need was fulfilled at Greenham. Em. Em.

00:44:23.860 - 00:44:30.040

yeah, I think for a lot of us, we actually learnt what love was. Because we learnt how to love and accept one another.

00:44:30.580 - 00:44:34.140

But it was, yeah. Em. Yeah,

00:44:34.340 - 00:44:38.000

and not be in con, living in conflict all the time. Yeah. Yeah.

00:44:38.480 - 00:44:41.120

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that must have been,

00:44:41.320 - 00:44:45.600

em, must have been nice to, to, you know,

00:44:45.780 - 00:44:48.900

to have a sense of peace. Yeah, it was. Em.

00:44:49.900 - 00:44:58.460

It was, you know, and just to be able to talk about all the things that people told you you were mad for. Yeah.

00:44:58.740 - 00:45:02.720

So, em, and suddenly I went to Greenham and I wasn t mad anymore, I was normal.

00:45:02.940 - 00:45:06.020

Em. And it was quite nice. Em. And so,

00:45:06.340 - 00:45:09.700

the, the, the women that were there were just, em,

00:45:10.800 - 00:45:13.460

you know, I suppose, you know, there wasn t,

00:45:14.340 - 00:45:22.380

em, like, social workers or people who had any kind of particular, em,

00:45:23.940 - 00:45:28.120

you know, skills. It was just the fact that you could talk together, together.

00:45:28.300 - 00:45:29.840

Yeah. Yeah. You know, non-judgmentally.

00:45:30.100 - 00:45:35.140

Yeah. that meant that everybody could have a, a proper say about what it was that, you know,

00:45:35.180 - 00:45:38.480

had happened to them or. Yeah. scared of, or whatever it was.

00:45:38.480 - 00:45:40.900

And, and everything. I mean, right, right down to,

00:45:41.860 - 00:45:43.720

I mean, oh, you know, I d never even,

00:45:44.700 - 00:45:48.360

I didn t know what couscous was or, you know, I mean, I d,

00:45:48.480 - 00:45:53.480

neither would I have done at that point. No. I mean, I had quite a small,

00:45:53.820 - 00:46:00.640

em, small world that I d lived in and going to Greenham taught me so much.

00:46:00.760 - 00:46:07.880

So much. I don t think I d ever had a green pepper or a red pepper till I went to Greenham or, so there was a lot of,

00:46:08.580 - 00:46:12.180

you know, really broadened my horizons. And, er, I mean,

00:46:12.380 - 00:46:17.760

I still call it hippie shit tea. You know, herbal tea. I d never had herbal tea or anything like that.

00:46:17.820 - 00:46:20.960

I mean, it was like, em, brown sugar.

00:46:21.640 - 00:46:25.380

Yeah, em, I mean, there s so many things that

00:46:25.380 - 00:46:35.380

I had no experience of until I went to Greenham. So. And were you involved in the sort of non-violent direct action,

00:46:35.500 - 00:46:39.020

the sittings and, you know, blockades and things like that? Or was that,

00:46:39.620 - 00:46:44.280

I can remember doing them but I can t necessarily remember doing them, what for. But I mean,

00:46:44.380 - 00:46:46.580

yeah, I mean, when we did non-direct actions, I mean,

00:46:46.720 - 00:46:50.200

things like going on camp, you know, on, into the base and things,

00:46:50.820 - 00:46:54.620

em, were part of that, yeah. I mean,

00:46:54.680 - 00:47:03.560

we just, I mean, there was nothing organised when I was there. There was nothing organised other than

00:47:03.560 - 00:47:07.360

what we organised. Yeah. Or, maybe we d get word from another gate

00:47:07.360 - 00:47:11.400

that something was going to happen and we d go and join it. But there was no organised, I mean,

00:47:11.560 - 00:47:16.920

there really wasn t any organisation. After the A Million Women, Mm.

00:47:16.920 - 00:47:20.140

I don t think there was anything organised after that, to be honest. Mm.

00:47:20.540 - 00:47:23.380

So it was all. Was that the Embrace the Base? Yeah. I think,

00:47:23.460 - 00:47:24.800

right. Yeah. Mm. Yeah.

00:47:24.980 - 00:47:31.920

So the Embrace the Base thing was, I think, probably one of the last big, big demos.

00:47:32.440 - 00:47:38.440

I think that was possibly one of the biggest all-women political demonstrations

00:47:38.440 - 00:47:41.140

that there s ever been. Yeah. I know, it was amazing.

00:47:41.360 - 00:47:45.640

I remember seeing it on telly and being absolutely blown away. Mm. Um,

00:47:45.640 - 00:47:48.760

that was before I was involved. Mm. So. And,

00:47:49.380 - 00:47:52.620

it seems to me, I mean, I m not a creative, like,

00:47:52.660 - 00:47:56.120

arty, drawing-y type person at all, um, but the,

00:47:56.200 - 00:48:00.920

the art, the art that came out of the base seemed, is,

00:48:01.060 - 00:48:04.420

is just quite amazing, I think. Yeah. You know,

00:48:04.520 - 00:48:09.460

really powerful, moving, very female as well. Yes.

00:48:09.660 - 00:48:13.140

Um. Yes. I mean, I m not an artist either,

00:48:13.180 - 00:48:17.360

so, um, but, you know,

00:48:17.840 - 00:48:21.240

I, I wrote a lot of stuff when I was there. I,

00:48:21.440 - 00:48:26.360

I used to write stuff then and, a lot of my, er,

00:48:26.420 - 00:48:30.460

working through stuff I did. Diaries and things like that. Yeah.

00:48:30.700 - 00:48:32.580

Yeah. In fact, we had, um,

00:48:32.700 - 00:48:38.520

a diary. The Red Gate diary. And, during one of the evictions,

00:48:38.660 - 00:48:44.800

we gave it to somebody to look after. And, my cousin

00:48:44.800 - 00:48:48.120

bumped into that person, I think it was, er, Gay Pride or something

00:48:48.120 - 00:48:51.860

one year, and they recognised them and said, I ve got the Red Book diary.

00:48:51.960 - 00:48:57.700

I ve got the Red Book diary. And, somehow, it never got,

00:48:58.640 - 00:49:02.100

the contact details were lost or something. So somebody somewhere had,

00:49:02.100 - 00:49:05.280

has got the Red Gate diary. Oh, I might ask,

00:49:05.360 - 00:49:07.980

because we, we are, we ve got, we ve had 200,

00:49:08.400 - 00:49:13.760

over 200 women contact us. And we can only interview 100 because that s,

00:49:13.940 - 00:49:16.500

that s all the funding that we ve got. Right. Er,

00:49:16.500 - 00:49:21.180

although we re trying to get some more just for the travel costs. Um, and,

00:49:21.940 - 00:49:24.980

I ll, I ll ask if anybody knows. Yeah.

00:49:24.980 - 00:49:26.980

Yeah. Because, because, you know,

00:49:26.980 - 00:49:32.480

if we can get it actually, I d rather give it to, to you and your cousin

00:49:32.480 - 00:49:36.040

and then you can decide if you want to. to release it, yes.

00:49:36.040 - 00:49:38.760

Well, or parts of it. Yeah, Because that s what s happened

00:49:38.760 - 00:49:41.080

with, with other women. They ve, um,

00:49:42.080 - 00:49:46.720

they ve either taken photographs of some of the pages or they ve, um,

00:49:47.240 - 00:49:49.900

er, spoken, spoken it out. Yeah,

00:49:50.240 - 00:49:52.920

yeah, yeah, and recorded it and sent it to us.

00:49:54.620 - 00:50:00.000

and they are really, because they, they re so in the moment they re incredibly visceral.

00:50:01.400 - 00:50:03.580

Yes. Yeah, exactly, yeah.

00:50:04.240 - 00:50:07.080

Yes. So, yeah, that s,

00:50:07.160 - 00:50:10.000

that s a really good call. I will, I will ask and see,

00:50:10.060 - 00:50:12.760

see if, if anybody, if anybody s got it and,

00:50:12.760 - 00:50:18.040

and give it back to you. Um, Are you travelling all over or are you just doing this area?

00:50:18.240 - 00:50:19.800

No, no, I m, well I live in the Midlands

00:50:19.800 - 00:50:24.180

so, er, I, I was in Glastonbury on Monday.

00:50:24.360 - 00:50:26.880

Right. Um, so only about twenty minutes away. Um,

00:50:27.980 - 00:50:32.860

Western today. I m in Derby on Friday. Um, where am I?

00:50:32.960 - 00:50:37.480

Birmingham. On, so that s the closest one. I m going to the Isle of Wight.

00:50:37.980 - 00:50:41.980

Wow. Southampton. So, but because,

00:50:42.660 - 00:50:47.020

so the, the volunteers, there s ten volunteers and part of the funding

00:50:47.020 - 00:50:51.200

was that some volunteers had to be more, um,

00:50:51.760 - 00:50:54.320

er, experienced in interviewing than others. yeah.

00:50:54.500 - 00:50:58.740

So they ve got, so, so I think what they ve done is they ve given the interviews

00:50:58.740 - 00:51:03.940

to people that, to try to match the people up,

00:51:04.080 - 00:51:06.760

if you know what I mean. Yeah. Um, so,

00:51:07.040 - 00:51:10.200

er, and because I ve done research before they ve sort of said to me,

00:51:10.300 - 00:51:12.240

you know, how about, you know, do you want to interview

00:51:12.240 - 00:51:14.560

these women and I ve just said yes to everybody, you know,

00:51:14.560 - 00:51:16.220

yes, you know, anybody, you know,

00:51:16.260 - 00:51:19.540

I don t mean I m, yes, yes, yes to all,

00:51:19.760 - 00:51:22.380

you know, I ll interview them all. So, um,

00:51:23.180 - 00:51:26.280

so yeah, it s, it s, and,

00:51:26.340 - 00:51:31.980

and I think actually quite a few women are from Wales down. There s not a lot north.

00:51:32.440 - 00:51:34.460

Right, okay. So, so women have tended

00:51:34.460 - 00:51:38.340

to gravitate towards sort of the south, east

00:51:39.000 - 00:51:42.060

a bit, but sort of southwestern Wales. Yeah,

00:51:42.100 - 00:51:45.840

I think there s quite a few greener women in Wales. Yeah. I think all old hippies

00:51:45.840 - 00:51:48.700

go to Wales. Also, all Glastonbury. Yeah,

00:51:48.760 - 00:51:51.500

all Glastonbury, yes, yes, yes,

00:51:51.820 - 00:51:55.340

so, yeah. Yeah, that would be great

00:51:55.340 - 00:51:58.180

if we could track that down, er, would. for you,

00:51:58.300 - 00:52:01.700

that would be brilliant. And, and in fact, the other thing

00:52:01.700 - 00:52:06.140

that I find amazing is that women have taken the, their papers,

00:52:07.340 - 00:52:12.160

you know, their sort of memories, those tangible pieces, and they ve moved with them

00:52:12.160 - 00:52:14.780

for, you know, twenty, thirty years.

00:52:14.940 - 00:52:19.460

I ve still somewhere got my Green and Women, Women Are Everywhere card. Fantastic.

00:52:19.680 - 00:52:24.360

That we had and our Green and Women badges and, yeah,

00:52:24.420 - 00:52:27.020

I mean, I ve probably got stuff but, to be fair,

00:52:27.780 - 00:52:34.620

I ve got what I call my tragedy box. And I very rarely look in my tragedy box

00:52:34.620 - 00:52:39.280

because it s just like full of sad stuff. So it s probably all in my tragedy box.

00:52:40.200 - 00:52:42.780

Em, but yeah, yes, I mean,

00:52:42.860 - 00:52:47.220

I probably have got stuff from back in the day. And, er,

00:52:47.420 - 00:52:51.280

my cousin was saying that Mel has got lots of photographs of us all at Greenham.

00:52:51.300 - 00:52:54.700

I ve hardly got any. Right. Because you had to get them developed

00:52:54.700 - 00:52:56.840

in those days. Yeah, expensive. And it was really

00:52:56.840 - 00:52:59.000

expensive. And you had to get proper cameras. Yeah,

00:52:59.000 - 00:53:03.460

yeah. So it was all very expensive so I never took photographs. Em,

00:53:03.520 - 00:53:07.280

but obviously other people did and got them developed so. And there is,

00:53:07.460 - 00:53:10.000

em, there is a documentary that I m in.

00:53:10.580 - 00:53:16.000

And the only reason I know about this is because one day, God,

00:53:16.100 - 00:53:20.560

this must have been about twenty years ago I would imagine, my son was

00:53:20.560 - 00:53:22.940

flicking through the channels and he went, That was you Mum.

00:53:23.080 - 00:53:27.040

And he flicked back and it was a Greenham documentary. Mm.

00:53:27.500 - 00:53:31.240

And it wasn t Carrie Greenham Home. It was another one.

00:53:31.900 - 00:53:35.800

There s one that is er, from the perspective of the Greenham women

00:53:35.800 - 00:53:39.180

and then in, they did a two part from the perspective of the,

00:53:39.600 - 00:53:42.740

of the people who worked on the base. Ah, right.

00:53:42.880 - 00:53:45.860

So that, those are on YouTube. Oh right. Because I ve been

00:53:45.860 - 00:53:48.560

searching, obviously I ve just been searching. You know.

00:53:48.560 - 00:53:51.660

Oh right, I might have a look because I m in, I m in one of them.

00:53:51.880 - 00:53:55.200

Yeah. I m in it a couple of times. Not speaking but, you know,

00:53:55.500 - 00:53:58.780

wearing an awful Christmas jumper but it was obviously very cold.

00:53:59.080 - 00:54:03.360

So I must have been there in the winter because it was obviously something that a visitor

00:54:03.360 - 00:54:06.900

had left or, or donated and I was wearing er,

00:54:07.360 - 00:54:10.900

a black jumper with white snowflakes on it and. Oh,

00:54:10.980 - 00:54:13.400

I ll look out for that. And I thought, Oh God, how awful.

00:54:14.380 - 00:54:17.180

Yes. I ve been seeing that. Well, any picture of anybody

00:54:17.180 - 00:54:19.500

in the 80s. Yeah, right. Wasn t great.

00:54:19.760 - 00:54:22.320

Yeah. And of course we used to have silly haircuts and.

00:54:22.340 - 00:54:26.040

Yeah. And shaved at the side and. I think they re great.

00:54:26.320 - 00:54:29.100

I think, you know, pictures are incredibly evocative I think.

00:54:29.120 - 00:54:30.700

Yeah, yeah. And I think the women look.

00:54:31.720 - 00:54:34.120

Yes. I don t know, like, em,

00:54:34.980 - 00:54:37.660

they look spectacular. Yeah, we were warriors. Yeah.

00:54:37.660 - 00:54:41.040

We really were, yeah. We really were warriors. And when I put stuff,

00:54:41.160 - 00:54:44.400

because I, I put stuff on Twitter as well, and quite a few green

00:54:44.400 - 00:54:48.580

and women have started to comment and follow and stuff and,

00:54:48.800 - 00:54:50.840

you know, they say, you know, we were revolutionaries.

00:54:51.040 - 00:54:52.920

Yeah. It was a revolution. Yeah, it was,

00:54:53.060 - 00:54:54.860

yeah, it was. It was. I mean,

00:54:55.020 - 00:54:58.060

yeah, it really was. We really were revolutionaries. Yeah.

00:54:58.400 - 00:55:01.060

Em, in our own way. And, er,

00:55:01.240 - 00:55:06.040

yeah. I think, for women in London, it was particularly so.

00:55:07.100 - 00:55:10.640

you seen all the, the Rebel Dykes and all that, that stuff, yeah,

00:55:10.740 - 00:55:14.680

and I know women that, er, were involved in that and, er.

00:55:14.840 - 00:55:17.060

They ve contacted us. So, yeah, right,

00:55:17.240 - 00:55:19.020

yeah. You know, great. Yeah.

00:55:19.020 - 00:55:20.900

Just brilliant. Yeah. Yeah. So,

00:55:21.160 - 00:55:26.740

yes, there s some amazing women out there. Mm. But not necessarily ones that I knew when I was there.

00:55:27.020 - 00:55:29.280

Mm. But ones that, that I, that I ve met since.

00:55:29.680 - 00:55:34.060

So, interesting. So do you still, do you still meet,

00:55:34.340 - 00:55:37.140

when, when you go to, to, em,

00:55:37.580 - 00:55:42.380

marches or pride or whatever, you still on, on occasion meet people? Not really,

00:55:42.480 - 00:55:45.300

no, because, A, I don t tend to go to,

00:55:45.760 - 00:55:49.180

er, London Pride because it s too commercial. Mm. Em,

00:55:49.840 - 00:55:55.000

and, I do go on marches, em, but I tend to go with people I know.

00:55:55.160 - 00:55:57.060

Mm. So, yeah. No,

00:55:57.160 - 00:56:00.880

not really. Em, I think, er,

00:56:00.960 - 00:56:06.740

I think people, you know, people think London s one big happy family. It isn t.

00:56:06.800 - 00:56:09.120

Mm. Actually, it s, you know,

00:56:09.160 - 00:56:13.480

if you live in West London, you stay in West London. If you live in North London, you stay in North London.

00:56:13.920 - 00:56:16.860

It s quite tribal. Yeah, it is quite tribal. So,

00:56:17.020 - 00:56:21.920

I mean, you know, I used to go to Bar Whatever in London,

00:56:22.500 - 00:56:28.300

and, em, I knew quite a lot of the trans community as well. So,

00:56:29.120 - 00:56:33.440

it, you know, yeah, I mean,

00:56:34.040 - 00:56:39.180

there s quite a lot of division in the lesbian community at the moment with all the, em,

00:56:39.440 - 00:56:43.720

you know, the transphobic stuff going on and whatever.

00:56:44.340 - 00:56:48.680

Myself, I think that trans people are where we were in the eighties.

00:56:48.920 - 00:56:52.940

Mm. And, I think it s a battle that we need to fight together.

00:56:53.260 - 00:56:57.860

Mm. And I don t understand all the division really. But people have got a right

00:56:57.860 - 00:57:03.580

to their own thoughts and feelings. Em, as long as we don t actively hurt anyone.

00:57:03.720 - 00:57:07.080

Mm. And. How do you think that would have played out at Greenham

00:57:07.900 - 00:57:09.540

in the, in, you know, if it was,

00:57:09.700 - 00:57:14.700

obviously, it s women only. Well, er,

00:57:15.480 - 00:57:21.340

I don t think it matters because that situation didn t arise. Mm.

00:57:21.800 - 00:57:27.640

So, I don t think it really matters. I think what matters is that we re now in

00:57:27.640 - 00:57:33.160

twenty nineteen. Mm. And times have changed

00:57:33.160 - 00:57:44.880

and our understanding has changed and er, my own feeling is that

00:57:44.880 - 00:57:49.620

I can choose whether I want to be in a space with

00:57:51.800 - 00:57:57.360

that s only biological women or, or has trans women in it.

00:57:58.480 - 00:58:04.280

Em, and I just think there s enough hating and enough division

00:58:04.280 - 00:58:08.320

going on and we need to just actually accept that

00:58:08.320 - 00:58:12.540

who we are and I think if we re secure in who we are as individuals,

00:58:13.140 - 00:58:17.300

it s much easier to accept other people for what they are and

00:58:17.300 - 00:58:22.260

self-identification is actually really important. Mm. Yeah.

00:58:22.480 - 00:58:26.740

So, as long as nobody is infringing on me and

00:58:27.300 - 00:58:31.600

my right to exist, I m quite happy to co-exist alongside

00:58:32.840 - 00:58:35.340

people. Mm. And, you know,

00:58:35.500 - 00:58:38.360

I mean, when I was young, I really, I didn t read books by men,

00:58:38.500 - 00:58:43.540

I didn t do all sorts of things that now

00:58:43.940 - 00:58:47.580

I do, you know. I ve got male friends, I, I,

00:58:47.580 - 00:58:51.880

I m much more integrated into society than I was when I was younger. Mm.

00:58:52.020 - 00:58:56.860

So, em, that s just how it works. And do you think that s because

00:58:56.860 - 00:59:00.300

you re much more grounded and, and centred in yourself. Yeah.

00:59:00.320 - 00:59:02.820

You re sure of yourself. Yeah. And so, you know,

00:59:02.820 - 00:59:05.580

I mean, you get to pick and choose more. Rather than, yeah.

00:59:05.940 - 00:59:07.880

Yeah. And, you know, it s,

00:59:09.180 - 00:59:15.040

it s OK for people not to have the same ideas as me.

00:59:15.180 - 00:59:18.580

It s, it doesn t mean that I m gonna hang out with people who worship Trump.

00:59:18.780 - 00:59:21.720

Yeah. You know, it doesn t mean that. But it means,

00:59:21.820 - 00:59:27.220

you know, it, it means that people are allowed to be who,

00:59:27.320 - 00:59:31.720

my granddaughter is a Muslim for instance. Yeah. Yeah. And that s what she chose to be

00:59:31.720 - 00:59:37.100

and so she is one and that s fine. And nobody in our family s got a problem with that.

00:59:37.140 - 00:59:40.960

Mm. None of us are religious, em, but if she wants to be a Muslim

00:59:40.960 - 00:59:49.920

that s her business. Em, maybe when I was younger I would have had a problem with that

00:59:49.920 - 00:59:54.100

because I would have thought that anyone that was religious needed a gun to their head.

00:59:54.260 - 00:59:55.660

Mm. Yeah. So, I mean,

00:59:55.700 - 00:59:59.040

that s a bit extreme but do you know what I mean? I, mm,

00:59:59.700 - 01:00:02.940

I think, yeah, positions get polarised. Yeah.

01:00:03.080 - 01:00:05.660

Yeah. There s this idea that as you get older you get more,

01:00:06.860 - 01:00:10.280

er, less broad minded but I think, I don t think that

01:00:10.280 - 01:00:14.660

is my experience. I think as I get older I become much more open and more accepting.

01:00:14.960 - 01:00:18.320

Mm. So I don t know why people think that but maybe it s

01:00:18.320 - 01:00:21.240

cos I m not normal. I don t know. I, well,

01:00:21.700 - 01:00:24.340

my, I think, and this is a gross generalisation I know

01:00:24.340 - 01:00:28.840

but I think women do get more open minded and I think,

01:00:28.860 - 01:00:32.340

I think men can narrow a bit. Oh right, OK.

01:00:32.640 - 01:00:36.140

I think they get a bit sort of, you know, I think they get to a point

01:00:36.140 - 01:00:40.120

where learning new things is, is quite difficult whereas I think that women

01:00:40.120 - 01:00:44.520

hit fifty and it s almost like it, it opens up a bit more,

01:00:44.780 - 01:00:46.480

you know. Right. Yeah. I think we,

01:00:46.600 - 01:00:50.760

we move into another, it s almost like having, cos we, we go through our second puberty

01:00:50.760 - 01:00:52.800

don t we. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there s,

01:00:52.880 - 01:00:56.160

there s a lot of, there s a lot of learning for that, for us.

01:00:56.160 - 01:00:58.160

An incredible, yeah, an incredible amount. Yeah.

01:00:58.540 - 01:01:01.860

I mean being old is wonderful. I love being old. I do. I wouldn t be young

01:01:01.860 - 01:01:06.680

for all the money in the world. Seventeen was my worst. Yeah. The absolute worst.

01:01:06.740 - 01:01:09.620

I wouldn t be seventeen again for, for anything. I think for me,

01:01:09.880 - 01:01:14.700

yeah, er, yeah, I think it started to really,

01:01:14.880 - 01:01:19.560

really drastically improve once I got to about thirty-two but, you know,

01:01:19.620 - 01:01:24.180

my early, early twenties, teens and early twenties, I,

01:01:24.200 - 01:01:27.540

I wouldn t go there again for all the money in the world and, you know,

01:01:27.620 - 01:01:30.280

people say, oh, your school years are your best. Well,

01:01:30.500 - 01:01:33.680

mine weren t. I m sorry. I hated school. I hated,

01:01:34.460 - 01:01:39.160

yeah. So it s a real struggle but being old s great because you can wear what you want.

01:01:39.260 - 01:01:43.700

You don t give a shit what people think. Em, em, you know,

01:01:44.120 - 01:01:48.980

try not to hurt people. And, em, just go around,

01:01:49.160 - 01:01:52.920

mind your own business and, er, get on with your life.

01:01:53.120 - 01:01:55.340

Yeah. Yeah. So it s wonderful. No, it is.

01:01:55.380 - 01:01:57.900

It s good. It s, er, it s,

01:01:57.960 - 01:02:01.780

it s, it s definitely something that I have, I ve changed quite a lot, er,

01:02:01.820 - 01:02:05.740

since I, I don t know when it, it s a gradual process, isn t it,

01:02:05.780 - 01:02:09.100

but I, I, when I look back now, I m a different person now

01:02:09.100 - 01:02:12.960

than I was. Yeah. absolutely. When you start staying in.

01:02:13.960 - 01:02:16.340

Yeah. And you think, I think Saturday night, I m,

01:02:16.340 - 01:02:20.260

I m staying in, I m in, in my pyjamas and dressing gown and it s five o clock in the evening.

01:02:21.000 - 01:02:23.980

Yes! Yeah. I know, it s like,

01:02:24.600 - 01:02:26.080

when you think, when you re young, you think, oh,

01:02:26.140 - 01:02:29.480

people are so boring but they re really not. Yeah. Well,

01:02:29.520 - 01:02:32.480

it s, you know, and I m quite happy for young people to be going out.

01:02:32.740 - 01:02:34.420

Yeah, so am I. I know what s out there. I ve been,

01:02:34.420 - 01:02:37.160

I ve been, I ve been there, done it. It s not my turn anymore.

01:02:37.380 - 01:02:39.700

You know. Like when I was young, I spent half my life, like,

01:02:39.760 - 01:02:42.380

looking for the party. Oh God, yeah. Yeah.

01:02:42.440 - 01:02:45.580

Yeah. And there wasn t one, you know, I was looking for a party

01:02:45.580 - 01:02:48.820

in my soul, I think, actually. Or a distraction,

01:02:49.100 - 01:02:50.960

something to, you know, to get, yeah,

01:02:51.140 - 01:02:55.040

I mean, that s the other thing. Like when you re young, I surrounded myself with people.

01:02:55.160 - 01:02:59.100

I had to be, you know, now, I love being on my own.

01:02:59.200 - 01:03:06.300

I think I m just the best company in the world. I m quite happy to spend years on my own. Not see anybody. I mean,

01:03:06.320 - 01:03:11.620

obviously I have to because I have to go to work. So do you, you work round here now? Yeah.

01:03:11.840 - 01:03:14.640

Yeah. I, em, work for Sainsbury s.

01:03:15.800 - 01:03:18.080

So, em, yeah, I got fed up of commuting.

01:03:18.420 - 01:03:21.640

I, I just had enough when I lived in London. And, er,

01:03:22.280 - 01:03:26.460

commuting and, you know, the menopause just really don t go together.

01:03:27.500 - 01:03:36.400

And I got a job in my local Sainsbury s and I thought I d just do that for six months. But actually, when you re old in London, it s quite hard to get a job.

01:03:37.180 - 01:03:45.360

And you re either, if you don t want to do a job that you ve done before, you re always overqualified. But you can get a job in Sainsbury s.

01:03:45.360 - 01:03:50.700

So I worked there and actually I ve been with Sains, Sainsbury s for four and a half years. And when I moved, I,

01:03:50.800 - 01:03:52.920

I transferred down here. Great. But, oh,

01:03:53.280 - 01:03:56.700

I hate it here. I hate it. Oh really. It s a,

01:03:56.720 - 01:03:59.020

a big, I, I was in a local. Mm.

01:03:59.540 - 01:04:07.320

Convenience and it was really nice. I knew all my customers. Did everything. Mm.

01:04:07.320 - 01:04:11.960

A bit of everything. But in a big one, it s completely different world and, I mean,

01:04:12.100 - 01:04:19.360

I m waking up at night in pain, in my, in my arm here because I m just doing. A repetitive,

01:04:19.820 - 01:04:21.960

like, repetitive work. So, well,

01:04:22.060 - 01:04:27.560

I don t know what it is because, yeah, I think it is from reaching at the back and pulling everything forward to check everything s in date,

01:04:27.660 - 01:04:31.880

I think that, it s, I m not on the tills. I couldn t bear that.

01:04:32.120 - 01:04:39.960

But I think I might end up going on them because, physically, I m not up to doing the job that I m doing at the moment. But,

01:04:40.060 - 01:04:44.900

I mean, I m applying like mad for other jobs, so. I m surprised they haven t got a little key thing

01:04:44.900 - 01:04:47.880

to get the stuff from the back, like a, a gizmo, you know.

01:04:47.880 - 01:04:51.440

No. They haven t got gizmos. They don t have gizmos. So,

01:04:54.820 - 01:05:02.600

um, is there any moment that you would say is, is the most vivid in your mind about Greenham?

01:05:02.820 - 01:05:04.560

Is there, if there s, if somebody said to you, Oh,

01:05:04.620 - 01:05:08.520

tell me about Greenham, is there something that sort of, some, something that springs to mind,

01:05:08.700 - 01:05:20.240

a picture or a song or a, or is it you round the fire or, I don t know. Well,

01:05:24.580 - 01:05:29.600

I think, I don t think there was any one particular thing that I can think of. I think it was just everything.

01:05:29.820 - 01:05:36.700

It was just that total feeling, that total feeling of belonging and that,

01:05:39.320 - 01:05:45.540

and having a reason, having a reason to just go on and,

01:05:47.920 - 01:05:54.060

and being part of something. That was, yeah, I think that was it really for me.

01:05:54.240 - 01:05:58.200

So when you left, did your cousin leave at the same time? Did you leave together? Er,

01:05:58.780 - 01:06:03.140

no, I think we, we weren t always there together either. I mean,

01:06:03.320 - 01:06:06.900

right. You know, we, because she obviously found her own

01:06:06.900 - 01:06:11.440

set of friends as well and would go off with them and I would go off with mine and,

01:06:12.100 - 01:06:15.520

er, er, yeah, so,

01:06:17.260 - 01:06:20.920

I think, I think eighty four, eighty five,

01:06:21.200 - 01:06:31.600

erm, we both, must have been eighty five that we both sort of

01:06:33.280 - 01:06:36.800

left, I think, towards the end of eighty five. I think,

01:06:36.920 - 01:06:44.040

I think the kids were getting older and there was a lot of, we were under pressure because it wasn t a,

01:06:44.880 - 01:06:49.320

you know, a nice environment for them and you have to, er,

01:06:49.820 - 01:06:51.640

you know, enjoy it. and, in those days they took the kids away

01:06:51.640 - 01:06:57.140

just for being a lesbian, so, you had to be quite careful. Did that happen to anybody?

01:06:58.160 - 01:07:01.260

No but, we both fought, er, custody cases

01:07:01.260 - 01:07:03.520

for our children, yeah, so,

01:07:03.640 - 01:07:08.680

while you were there? No, we left there because you couldn t win if you were there

01:07:08.680 - 01:07:11.540

so you had to leave. So, oh my God. So,

01:07:11.740 - 01:07:14.540

er, yeah, my cousin fought, erm,

01:07:15.280 - 01:07:43.860

she won and I fought some years later. By that time I had all three of mine and I won. But I spent five days in court during which time my friend s, not my lover, just my friend s footwear was mentioned five times because obviously her shoes had a real impact on my parenting ability. So, yeah, I mean there was horrendous, horrendous, em yeah, we were

01:07:43.860 - 01:08:06.660

like, yeah, it wasn t easy being a lesbian mother in the eighties. It really wasn t. And so the custody, so the, the sort of, the reasons that they gave were, you know, you were an unfit mother because of your sexuality and presumably other things as well. Morality. Oh right. Yeah, it was all, er, sexuality, yes, but that was all tied in with morality.

01:08:06.880 - 01:08:28.160

So they couldn t even say the word sexuality. It had to be euphemistically called something else. Yeah. Em, but yes, I mean it was all to do with, em, yeah, I mean it was all to do with sexuality. Yeah. And er, you know, lesbians couldn t bring up children and er, it was all clause twenty-eight, wasn t it? She, when Thatcher brought out clause twenty-eight,

01:08:28.320 - 01:08:53.920

we weren t allowed to promote her homosexuality. Mm. And em, that sort of trickled down into that you weren t allowed to be openly a lesbian. Mm. And have children. Yeah. I mean it was, yeah, it was horrible. It was awful. And, you know, being an educated working class with a care background, it, it wasn t an easy fight. But, you know, I did fight and I did win.

01:08:55.140 - 01:09:22.060

Do they have anything to do with their, their dad? No. They ve all got different fathers. Right. So that was another reason. My children have all got different fathers. Another reason why they felt, and, and, so who, was it one of the dads wanted custody of One of the dads and my mother. Yeah. Oh wow. Yeah. So, em, and er, they, they fought long and hard but I won. So

01:09:22.060 - 01:09:45.140

it didn t matter. Well, I mean it did matter. It mattered enormously. It was horrendous. Em, and I haven t had anything to do with my mother for over thirty years. So. What, what, did she think, did she honestly think she was doing that for the best then? No. She had done it to me all my life. Yeah. That s why I was in care so much that,

01:09:45.900 - 01:10:13.000

em, she channelled her guilt through me, em, and I was to blame for everything that, you know, she had mental health problems. Mm. And I was to blame for most things that had happened in her life and er, I wouldn t do, as I was told, I wouldn t shut up. Yeah. So, I, you know, I was the one who talked about the sexual abuse. I was the one. So, yeah, it was all,

01:10:13.300 - 01:10:45.100

em, yeah, she was just my mother really and er. And did that, did the sexual abuse go to court or was it No, no, no. I mean, this was, em, when, when we were kids. Yeah, I mean, she just like denied it ever happened and said we were liars and, you know, all that sort of thing. Yeah. And which was quite sad in a way because I had a real understanding of her and how she d come to be and

01:10:45.100 - 01:11:10.320

how difficult her life had been and made the mistake of trying to talk to her about it. And er, she could, could not come to terms with who she was. Mm. And er, you know, she had illegitimate children in the early sixties. Mm. She was er, a woman brought up, born out of her time as well. She had mental health problems and er, you know, she really, really, really suffered

01:11:10.320 - 01:11:39.280

but I think one of two things happens. Either you come to terms with who you are and you get your head around it and you deal with your shit and or you don't and she didn't. So, one of the women I went to see was, she said, oh, I've kept a diary but she said when they started doing the evictions in eighty-four, like two, three times a day, she said I, I couldn't keep

01:11:39.280 - 01:11:59.720

a diary anymore. I just couldn't write in it because we just couldn't, I couldn't keep the stuff safe and dry and all the rest of it. And I thought, god, it's such a parallel with sexual abuse and domestic abuse because what the police say is, oh, keep a diary of when it happens and what happens. But of course you can't keep a diary, can you, because you can't keep it

01:11:59.720 - 01:12:23.120

safe. Of course not. So, um. Yeah, right. Yeah. So, it's, it's very, and you know, and again, I've got, you know, other people I know, one, one woman I know used to keep a diary of her abuse when she was younger and she had a little code for it and then when she was older, she went to court and they, she, she thought her diaries would help her because she kept, you know, said,

01:12:23.300 - 01:12:47.940

you know, and, um, and they were used against her because in amongst all of the, you know, code for what, uh, had been happening to her, she'd say, you know, had a really great day with dad, did this, did that, did the other. Yeah. You know, he's a great guy and they were saying, well, you can't possibly be being abused if you're, and of course you can,

01:12:48.060 - 01:13:09.540

you know, you can be. Yeah, right. You know, you say with her dad, she's not going to get another one. Exactly. Yes. Yes, exactly. I mean that ambivalence, isn't it? So. Yeah. And there is a conflict and it is difficult and it's totally non-intuitive because people expect you to hate them, you know, and you do hate them on one level. Yes. You know, obviously. So yeah, it's,

01:13:09.540 - 01:13:30.180

it's complex and I just don't think that as a society we are prepared, you know, we quite, we like those binaries, you know, it's, it's, you're a good person, you're a bad person or what if you're both. Yeah, right. Yeah. Um, which most of us are to be honest. Yeah. Anyway. Yeah. Except for me, I'm perfect. Apart from you obviously, I've got that on tape now.

01:13:31.320 - 01:13:58.240

So is there anything else that you, that you want to talk about that you. I'm sure I'll think of millions of things when you've left. I know, I'll, I, I will. So how, how important do you think was the, um, was the, the, the ability to be openly lesbian at the camp, within the camp? Do you think that was. God, massively. Massively.

01:13:58.760 - 01:14:30.580

Absolutely. Massively. If you were not lesbian, if you were a heterosexual woman, was, were you still accepted? Was it still okay? Yeah, it was okay to be anything. It's absolutely okay. Um, but a lot of us weren't. And I think a lot of, um, women had dalliances as well with other women, um, perhaps went on to have straight relationships later. But, um,

01:14:32.200 - 01:14:57.140

yeah, I mean, it was, it was very safe. It was, it was very, very safe. And was it safe? Was it physically safe? I mean, it was, was there, because again, I've heard of. No, it wasn't physically safe. I mean, people used to come and yeah, I mean, you know, cars would pull up and throw things at you and shout things at you. And, uh, I mean,

01:14:57.140 - 01:15:28.780

I remember one morning I got up really, really early. It was a beautiful, beautiful spring morning and I was sitting by the fire and sewing and this car pulled up and they were out of the sunroof with a camera, taking photographs, yeah, and shouting abuse. And I just thought, er. Like, it, it just, the two things didn t seem to really marry but, you know, it happened.

01:15:29.400 - 01:15:51.700

And, and it was frightening if it happened at night when you were asleep. But. So did they come on to the camp, did people come on to the camp at night or did they just drive by and chuck stuff. Er, I think they tended to just drive by because we were quite close to the road and I think actually they were probably a bit frightened of us as much as we were of them because we were

01:15:51.700 - 01:16:18.600

quite scary. So. I mean, sometimes the police would come on and put the fire out and, er, like harass us all at night and things. Erm. What do you mean harass? Well, we d all be sitting round the fire playing, you know, singing and whatever. And, er, I remember one particular time when there was a couple of kids asleep around the fire and they

01:16:18.600 - 01:16:45.860

came and they just threw dirt or something on the fire and all the sparks went all over the children and, who were lying in nylon sleeping bags, you know, and they could have been burnt. It was like really quite, a really violent thing to do to us and, erm, things like that that went on and they just like, er, and threatened to evict us and like do an eviction there and then. So, erm, yeah.

01:16:47.820 - 01:17:01.460

But yeah, I mean, I, I think it was probably a damn sight safer than anywhere else I ve lived. So. Yeah, good point. That s, that s, that s a sad fact, isn t it? Yeah, yeah, so. It was all right.