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Suzanne tell us first how you became part of the peace movement. Well I was a teenager because I think it was about 1982 was it when things really started kicking off well it might have been a little bit before but I think I started getting involved about 1982 and I was able to drive my parents car they'd let

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me and it was a Peugeot 504 estate it was like a tank and I was 18 and my younger sister was 16 and we got in this car with my parents permission and drove off to Greenham for one of the celebrate you know embrace the base or a protest march or something I can't remember the details I'm sorry but that's how we

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started and we used to get involved in lots of things like anti-bivisection marches and walk against racism in Trafalgar Square and you know all sorts of other peace things so Greenham was one of them many really that was all about trying to form a different way of life and a different approach to the

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world and reacting against the Thatcher politics of the time and the destroying of communities and you know the violence that the missiles represented really on you know British territory. So how was it you first heard about Greenham do you remember? Probably from the TV though I'm not sure I used to get spare

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rib magazine so I might well have seen it through there I'm pretty sure I was already getting spare rib by then I know I was definitely I actually wrote an article for them sometime in 1984-85 so I know them around then but I'm pretty sure I was reading so I might well have picked it up from spare rib. And how

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often did you visit Greenham then after your first trip there? It's difficult I was trying to remember this because when I looked at my old diaries because I kept these diaries as a child and as a teenager and in fact until I was in my late 20s I wrote a diary article entry every day so I was sort of looking back

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as I found a couple of photos and looked at the back thought right find the diary entry so I could pin down those dates but I had obviously been quite a few more times but you just don't remember there was so much going on you know I became a student I had a baby I was involved in the South London occupation

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you know South London hospital occupation so I probably went half a dozen or a dozen times I might have gone more but I couldn't swear to it definitely some of the embrace the bases but also just going along with friends and just showing support for the women who were living there I never lived

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there the most I stayed was perhaps two or three nights but generally it was a flying visit just to show support for the women who were doing all the work really and what was it about Greenham that made you keep returning them oh it was women only and that was overwhelmingly important that feeling I

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think as a young woman in those days I mean it wasn't massively different from now but and maybe women today would feel the same way there was something about when something was exclusively for women you felt it was about you whereas when things weren't exclusively for women it felt it wasn't about you at all and I

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remember at university just to give an example they used to have elections of the students to go to conferences that were held by the National Union of Students and what one year in my first year they decided that they would there would be a women-only conference and up until then I hadn't thought of standing

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for election you know it wasn't relevant to me sort of thing hadn't even thought about it and then when they said it's a women-only conference so we're asking women to put themselves forward suddenly that was about me and it's funny as women we don't see ourselves as part of mainstream often and I was a

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feminist you know I was a vegetarian I was a feminist I was a protester my consciousness wasn't fully raised it never is is it but it was partially raised but it is that sort of thing that sorry to go on about it but I think it that's really important that it was a women-only thing also the peace aspect

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you know I really hated the thought of cruise missiles and nuclear weapons and particularly objected to the fact it was Americans using our land as well that we were somehow hosting this awful you know beast of a weapon and you know worried about the future we all were worried about the future and whether or

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not you know our children and our children's children would grow up with this awful you know it seemed like an escalation at the time I mean I know since that there's been a de-escalation of nuclear weapons which is absolutely brilliant and long may it last but at the time we were really worried weren't

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we hiding under the table you know our plans you know for what would happen and that was very real and you felt as a young woman that you know you've got to be out there protesting against it because who else was going to? Was the camp what you expected? I think so because I've been on lots of

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marches and been around people who were protesting so I knew I won't say the type of people because we're all different types anyway you can't categorize but you know as I mentioned before you know quite a lot of hippie people you know hippie in that they're very sort of earth orientated and

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natural and like creative crafts and very vegan and vegetarian that was always a very strong theme and I was vegetarian anyway and later my sister who used to come with me and in fact both my sisters at the time I've got three sisters but two of them used to come to Greenham with me one of them was

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on actually on the picture that you put on the website for the Greenham project my sister Louise who's got bleach blonde backcombed hair her and her friend little Louise we used to call her my sister wasn't big but her friend was also Louise and was very small so they were being they were occupying

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Greenham and the police were coming in to take people away so she went there first I probably heard about it first from her actually yeah thinking about it but she and I haven't spoken for years so not anything to do with Greenham obviously but just for other reasons that must have been quite a unique

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experience to have three sisters together yes yeah yeah I mean Louise my older sister the one with the bleach blonde hair she was more doing her own thing with her friends and she was much more involved in Greenham in terms of they would be tracking the missile when the missiles came out on those sort of

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yes she was involved in that and following them she got arrested by the police you know that sort of thing she was a law student at Southampton and then she was the one who went to the South London Hospital for women and persuaded me you know well didn't really need to persuade me to go there

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but my younger sister always would come with me and she was perhaps even less involved than I was but yeah it was good it was nice it was a sisterly thing but it was usually friends that you would go with as well you know and particularly at university a lot of students in the women's group or the labor group you

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know we would all rally round if there was something going on at Greenham we'd send a minibus down I would often drive a minibus down now you've mentioned the South London Hospital for women can you tell me a little bit about how your daughter came to be born there and why that was an important part of your

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Greenham experience yes yeah it was um it was when I was heavily pregnant just about due to have her and I'd fought for a home birth because I wanted to be in control and I didn't want a conventional birth and my sister Louise was already occupying the South London Hospital for women with a whole bunch of

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other women there was probably about 30 women occupying the wards of the inpatient part of the hospital the outpatient part was still open at the time so they were living there and a lot of them were Greenham women who were coming for respite so they were coming to have a bath a hot bath or wash their

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clothes or just sleep in a comfortable bed because Greenham was very uncomfortable and cold and wet you know and and quite unpleasant muddy you know conditions so they would often come for a weekend or a week holiday to the South London Hospital for women which was occupied for oh it must have been maybe

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nearly a year you know so that was quite a few months and so my sister was was actually living there because she'd graduated and was working in London and so that was where she was actually living and visiting Greenham occasionally and I was on the phone to her moaning about being heavily

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pregnant and waiting for the baby to come and she said come and visit the South London Hospital you might think about having your baby there you could it would be amazing for the protests you know it raised the profile we could do press releases it would really give a boost to morale and that's often what

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these things were about so I thought why not you know if it's a women's protest and it's a good important thing to try and keep this hospital open and I went along the women were amazing they were so enthusiastic they were they got a couple of independent midwives that they contacted ready for the birth they

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cleaned a room they looked after me they were all really excited so I popped back home got some clothes you know and brought it back and then set up you know my room and basically lived there she was a week late so I was living there for just over a week I think it was before she came and I was scrubbing the

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corridors the day before she arrived yes because I was so desperate and those corridors always need scrubbing in a hospital anyway don't they but the funny thing was there was a picket we had a picket at the entrance of the hospital always women on picket duty to prevent you know people coming in and you know

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just not being allowed to come into the hospital it was an occupied hospital of women only so you know police or men that wanted to come in had to be held at the picket place so on the morning when I went into labor I thought that perhaps I was in labor but I wasn't quite sure so I went and sat on picket duty and

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after about half an hour I thought no and I said to the women I think actually I'm in labor and my sister had gone to work her from my her friend her best friend who was also going to be my birthing partner had gone to work but they contacted them got them back and all these women came into the room you

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know we had a room set up for the birth just had bean bags in and a tape recorder as they were in those days and we had culture club and Bronski beat and all this playing and all these women were in the room you know lots of them watching me give birth very public but they're all very supportive they were

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all panting when I was panting and it was great and you know I didn't have any drugs or gas and I didn't need anything I had a really amazing birth actually it was incredible really really good birth and everything went fine and you know they were delighted of course it was a girl made even better didn't

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it's a cherry a cake so Scarlett Mandela that's her middle name Mandela because we were also we used to go and protest against outside South African Embassy in Trafalgar Square for releasing Nelson Mandela so I figured that she should have a name like that as her middle name and so she was born

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and it was in the papers and you know it was there it was a bit of a furore about it the Health Authority didn't like it at all and I had to leave within a couple of days they were threatening to make my baby a ward of court because they said she had jaundice which was rubbish I mean when I took her back

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home and I saw a midwife I said you know is everything all right and she said yeah baby looks great I said don't you think she's a bit yellow you worried about jaundice no all babies look like that when they're born so they'd obviously completely you know these two midwives that have been sent by the Health

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Authority to check me out the day after the birth were oh she's very jaundice this is life-threatening you know really and I was only 9 20 I was 20 so you know you don't really know and I didn't want her to be taken away obviously so my dad came and picked me up and took me to the family home my

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parents home and but I did go back lots of times went back and stayed at the hospital and obviously went to Greenham and yes I say there was a strong interchange of women from Greenham and the South London Hospital and women from the minor strikes as well. So that's your experience of Greenham then being

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connected to other campaigns and political actions outside yeah of the camp but through the same network of women. Yes yeah and incredibly supportive of each other you know they would all move as a group almost I you know if the minor strike was going on and the women that were involved in the minor strike

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were getting very political and very active and they would you know the women from Greenham and South London Hospital would go along and support those women when there was a big march on to support the minors and then they would come down and support Greenham or the South London Hospital there was probably

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other protests going on that you know I wasn't aware of but and we had minors male minors coming in to the South London Hospital to run a creche for us when we had I think it was Alf Dobbs the local MP at the time was speaking at the hospital you know in support of it and so there was a women-only audience but

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it was men running the creche and I'll never forget seeing this minor pushing my baby and this pram up and down the corridor and I'd said to him oh she'll need to go to sleep in about half an hour and you have to she doesn't go to sleep easily you have to be really sort of pushing the pram very forcefully you

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know lots of bobbing up and down and I remember hearing my baby cry and looking out of the door and seeing this minor pushing my baby with her head bobbing up and down in the pram you know he looked a bit concerned that he was having to push her so vigorously but that was yeah that's that's the sort of

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thing that sticks in your memory isn't it really the endless days of cold and you know all of that fades away a bit more I understand that you took scarlet your daughter to Greenham yes I've got my diary entries so these are your diary entries from having scarlet yes yeah so at the Greenham camp yeah I can give you

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this as well but it's just to say I put on the Thursday before her birthday was on Saturday and I'd said at 3 p.m. me and Sally my friend she was a woman who did Greenham and the South London Hospital I'd met her at South London Hospital so me and Sally my friend left scarlet my baby daughter with Mitch my sister and got

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trains and bus to Greenham Common first at Greengate then Emerald which was nice then Bluegate pitch tent at blue popped over to orange as some women are doing an action Greenham's fourth birthday cold hard night didn't know that was Greenham's fourth birthday until I read that diary entry so these things fly out

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of you is that right September the fifth yeah yeah that sounds about right yeah all right Friday September the 6th I said awoke at 8 30 a.m. after a very uncomfortable and rather cold night at Greenham got a lift to Orangegate where we had tea drank wine sounds like fun and chatted with Jillian Viv two really

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great women went to Yellowgate then back to blue then to Emerald and back to blue boring isn't it Saturday September the 7th Scarlett's first birthday and she spent most of it at Greenham yeah I woke at 6 30 a.m. then 7 30 a.m. and 9 a.m. it was so uncomfortable at Greenham Jillian Viv

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and Tan picked us up and we went to Newbury station to meet Mitch and Scarlett we went to blue then violet for a while then to orange green for the Pacific women I have no idea who the Pacific women are no recollection of that I don't know whether you'll come across them in your journeys and then

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yellow and back to blue then Emerald and then Mitch and I took Scarlett home it doesn't say very much does it a few names you know and the fact that we were always moving between gates all the time which is weird isn't it and we must have I don't know why I have no recollection of why we're always moving around

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between the gates but presumably that's what other women don't as well just me I think we found that some of the other women who lived there for quite a time seemed to stay at one gate yeah but I guess people who were more sort of regular visitors coming and going possibly easy for them to move about

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yeah maybe we were just wanting to show all the women at different gates that they had support and so we're maximizing our impact that way and that's the only reason I can think of it because you'd imagine you'd arrive and just settle at a gate and chat with the women and spend the day there wouldn't you but we

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obviously didn't I had no recollection of the fact that we did that either so it's strange isn't it I just remember have snapshot memories of being there you know and and seeing the gate and being with friends and being part of something that was very important and much bigger than me so there you are you can have

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that was her first birthday I've got another couple of diary entries from later on that year when I took a minibus down there with with a whole bunch of women but I'm just talking about their names and which gate we went to and apparently we met some women from the women's media action group and I thought

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oh that's when I saw that I'd written this in the diary I thought well I'll print that off and give that to you because you might come across some women who can sort of confirm that the women's media action group were there you know all the Pacific women whoever they were do you have any other memories

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of Scarlett's first birthday be there was it important to you that yes it was very important you know I wanted her I was hoping she didn't turn out quite like this because children never do today but I was very politically active as a teenager so when I had this baby at 20 you know and I was in the middle

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of all these politically active things I really wanted her one day to be able to stand up you know at the Student Union you know maybe at a hustings maybe she'd be standing for election because I subsequently did stand and got elected as communications officer for the Student Union and I was envisaged that

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one day she would be able to stand up and say don't talk to me about about black liberation Mandela is my middle name don't talk to me about occupations I was born into one don't talk to me about peace movements I spent my first birthday at Greenham Common you know don't talk to me about vegetarianism I

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was a vegetarian when I was a fetus you know I wanted her to have these all these credentials to be able to say I'm connected to all of that that's all important a fabric in my life you know so yes it was very important to me and she did spend a lot of her babyhood either at the south end the hospital or

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picketing the South African Embassy and demanding the release of Nelson Mandela which worked again these things did work one way or another she never stood for election she wasn't politically active but she is a progressive politically and that's the important thing is that absolutely she could have

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rebelled like I did against my parents can I just ask you a few questions about your stay at Greenham just in more general terms would you say that Greenham was a vehicle for women in which they claimed back some power from traditionally male-dominated bodies like

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the military like the police absolutely yes it was a it was a way of counterbalancing that male strength and the sort of aggression that often is linked with male strength isn't it we all know that power corrupts and men definitely held the power I know there was Margaret Thatcher in charge but she

00:19:58.040 - 00:20:17.880

was like an honorary man at the time you know she was more masculine than the men you know around her and it was almost as if she had to prove her strength by being you know by being more manly or more aggressive or more you know difficult than men she wasn't representing women and she didn't help

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the cause of women in so many ways it was quite the opposite so it was very frustrating for those of us politically active women at the time to feel you know people would challenge well you're right you've got a woman as Prime Minister now as if that made everything okay and it didn't you know the women

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who were living in the miners communities were you know they were on strike they had no money they couldn't feed their children they were their communities were falling apart you know and community is really important to women I mean it is to men as well but they don't realize it in the way that

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women do they suffer poor mental health and they don't realize that because they're losing their connections with each other and their family and they're not making friends and keeping a network of friends but women tend to understand that and do it so I think that was what Greenham was showing in South London

00:21:05.440 - 00:21:23.640

Hospital and the miners strikes they were all showing that women you know when they get together they're trying to build a strength to counterbalance that male strength that was basically running the establishment and putting these you know very dangerous missiles into our country into the heart of our country

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and threatening our children and I think it was great that women showed that strength got together women always understand the power in numbers don't they with men don't tend to and it was so it was always very democratic you know when you talk about the diaries I'm sure that any diaries that you read from

00:21:43.840 - 00:21:58.800

the bases will show that level of democracy there was always lots of debate and women really listening to each other and really caring about listening and sometimes that could be frustrating you know when you think it's obvious what we should be doing next you know but there was always that ethos whether it

00:21:58.800 - 00:22:15.240

was at Greenham or at South London Hospital or whether if you got involved in the mining communities and listen to them everyone was starting to understand that you know everyone was equally important everyone needed to be respected whatever their situation and if they were black and ethnic minority or

00:22:15.240 - 00:22:36.880

disabled or lesbian or you know whatever they were it was equally valuable and needed and I think that was almost a sort of tidal wave of change that was going on at a level of society that isn't really fully recognized you know there was this awful establishment that was really right-wing and very brutal to

00:22:36.880 - 00:22:57.020

its communities and to a lot of you know sections of society really and then there was this counter wave of feminine power and you know the men that came with us that supported and there were some great men that did but that was very much more about we were diverse and we respect that and we want to empower that

00:22:57.020 - 00:23:18.580

and I think that was that was the bedrock really for what's come since you know in the 90s and ever since then where equal respect for people you know and diversity and the celebration of diversity not just the tolerance of it yeah which was a bit more 80s does that make sense absolutely yeah that has come

00:23:18.580 - 00:23:40.820

across in the interviews that there was this very democratic way of discussion decisions yeah yeah yeah almost too democratic sometimes I was going to ask you about that was that you know how do you thought the decision-making process was and was it ever a negative to that I don't think I could ever say it was

00:23:40.820 - 00:23:58.800

negative it's just that if you're someone who likes to make decisions and move on you know I became an NHS manager afterwards after but after you know occupying a hospital and giving birth there and really pissing off the health authority I then trained to become an NHS manager and spent my career working in

00:23:58.800 - 00:24:15.060

the NHS so I'm that sort of personality that likes to be organized make decisions and move on and obviously when you're working in a very democratic situation where people really want to think things through carefully and talk about their feelings about things sometimes that can get frustrating but

00:24:15.060 - 00:24:33.880

you know you have to you have to bear with it you know you have to go with it it's the best way undoubtedly and everyone does need to be heard even if they're repeating themselves a few times or saying something that someone else has said already you know what do you remember about the relationship between

00:24:33.880 - 00:24:50.800

the Green and women and the men around the base the military the police the bailiff it's the same as it was with the miners strike with the South London Hospital and with all the protests I went on the police were awful at the time I mean as I said earlier I really like to think that they've changed now but

00:24:50.800 - 00:25:07.240

at the time they were definitely the establishment and they were quite horrible I mean occasionally you'd get one that was sort of a bit friendly and would smile and you know some of the soldiers that were guarding the base you know we we taught them basically with naughty songs that we'd make up you know

00:25:07.240 - 00:25:27.540

and all chant these songs we are women we are strong we are never ever wrong things like that you know that would be like in their face you know we were we were cheeky and mischievous I mean we were powerless so you know it's like the Palestinian children throwing stones at Israel isn't it and I won't get into

00:25:27.540 - 00:25:43.180

that whole debate but you know we were working from a position of powerlessness so you know they couldn't have really taken that much umbrage to it but you know some of them would be very stony faced some of them would sort of smile and you know think it was funny and understand you know where you were but

00:25:43.180 - 00:26:01.860

a lot of the police it was horrible they would be really really obnoxious on the marches and I remember once I mean a silly example but it really summed it up for me I was carrying my daughter Scarlett on an empty I think it was a an anti-racism march so you know if you're protesting against racism that's a good

00:26:01.860 - 00:26:17.660

thing isn't it you're not asking for anything for you you're not there you know shouting at anyone for anything you're not being demanding you know of anything that's not right really I mean no one can argue the case for racism can they not even the police but there was a policeman next to me and we were doing

00:26:17.660 - 00:26:35.720

the usual chanting you know that we were against racism and that everyone should live happily together sort of thing all very nice and peaceful here I am holding a baby and the baby has a bad cold you know and there's a lot of snot coming out of this baby's nose and at one point she wiped her snotty nose

00:26:35.720 - 00:26:55.080

against my face so it was on my cheek and I went to wipe it off and the policeman saw this good baby he said like just a really spiteful I know he hadn't done anything he didn't do anything physically but it was just that that almost a humiliation of a comment you know that he was against me from

00:26:55.080 - 00:27:11.100

what I was only standing up for other people you know having a go at him I haven't even said anything to him but he just didn't like the fact that we existed and we were there he resented that you know and that that's the feeling you got from the police quite often and even the military to some

00:27:11.100 - 00:27:28.080

degree that they resented our presence they thought we were you know stepping out of our place and as women or as protesters we shouldn't be doing that we should just accept society as is and allow the status quo to prevail but you know unless you have people challenging things that are wrong

00:27:28.080 - 00:27:46.340

things don't improve they go stale or they go backwards and I think we've all learned from the last sort of 30 years that unless you keep that pressure things do go backwards you have to keep the pressure on you can't let you can't become complacent about the freedoms that we've won because people will

00:27:46.340 - 00:28:05.640

they'll always be people fighting them and that's what I didn't realize when I was a teenager and growing up I thought once we've got this ground once we've got you know women's liberation equal pay equal respect diversity you know gay rights minors right you know everything it won't go back but it does unless you

00:28:05.640 - 00:28:26.080

fight for it as we can see in America yeah absolutely and in many places even our country you know it's always under threat isn't it do you remember seeing or even experiencing any aggression or violence from the military or the police when you were at Greenham? I personally didn't but I did hear a lot of accounts

00:28:26.080 - 00:28:46.080

from other people where the police had been rough or you know abusive verbally on other protests I knew of friends who'd actually been beaten up by the police who they weren't Greenham women they were men who'd been protesting about racism or minor strike probably the minor strike the police were

00:28:46.080 - 00:29:04.420

particularly bad and in the South London Hospital when the police did come in to evict the women that were there I was on holiday at the time otherwise I'd have been evicted alongside them I felt a bit guilty about that I happened to go on holiday for a couple of weeks and all the women in the hospital got evicted

00:29:04.420 - 00:29:22.040

and and by all accounts it sounded very exciting you know they'd been up on the roof and all this sort of thing that the police had sent in female police officers I think mostly but you know that was it's inevitable a bit of manhandling is going on when there's an eviction because they were being forcibly removed basically I

00:29:22.600 - 00:29:35.460

don't think they were overly violent men but no you just hear about it from other people I didn't see it myself. What do you remember about the relationship between the women at Greenham and the local residents in Newbury?

00:29:36.660 - 00:29:52.740

I didn't see any of that because I wasn't living there and I wasn't ever there for long enough you know as I say I probably only stayed two or three nights at the most but I did hear from people that some of the residents were really lovely and supportive and gave food and blankets and would let people

00:29:52.740 - 00:30:09.940

go to their houses to wash and things like that but others had a real difficulty with Greenham women being there I think probably more men than women had that difficulty and that sometimes they could be you know verbally abusive if not violent that's what I heard but I didn't witness it

00:30:09.940 - 00:30:22.940

myself. And how do you think Greenham women were portrayed at the time and indeed since in the media? Well it's funny you say that because I found a letter that one of my friends

00:30:22.940 - 00:30:41.780

said she wasn't a Greenham woman well she was a Greenham woman in that she came with with me to visit Greenham Common I'll just read this out to you because it's it really reflects it's not the media but it was the male attitude at the time which kind of reflected what you're saying I'll just read a little bit of

00:30:41.780 - 00:30:57.020

the background so you understand she's talking about her workplace I don't know where she was working or even what she was doing it was some sort of admin or management it might have been a legal office because she then went on to do a law degree this girl she was very very bright but she was very quite

00:30:57.020 - 00:31:14.540

revolutionary and you know a great woman basically she says work is okay but I think the silly little blokes there feel threatened by me you can almost feel them clutch their balls as they walk into the room but I wouldn't go anywhere near them because I have Ms on my checks instead of Miss they decided to

00:31:14.540 - 00:31:33.900

accuse me of being a feminist and then one of the silly pricks in his 30s went home and wrote this really long poem about what is a feminist basically attempting to take the piss out of Greenham and burning bras etc etc he showed it all around the office and then proudly presented it to me I didn't know

00:31:33.900 - 00:31:54.760

what to say so I just said nothing it's not really worth trying to justify yourself in a room full of absolute fucking dickheads and women that want the dickheads to stay just that way they have this view this is silly little women getting out of their place trying to get involved in politics that they

00:31:54.760 - 00:32:12.580

don't understand and international relations of defense and what have you you know who do they think they are they should just go back into the kitchen sort of thing that's perhaps portraying it a little bit starkly but I think some of them genuinely believe that some of them were certainly indicating it and

00:32:12.580 - 00:32:31.140

some of them might have given a bit of lip service but weren't really that supportive when it came to women being there and doing their thing obviously I was a student and I was very lucky I was very privileged and I had the men around me and my family was all women except for my dad and he was very

00:32:31.140 - 00:32:47.460

placid and easygoing and he would have given me a lift to Greenham if I'd asked him to you know and picked me up he was that sort of a chap and the men at university were the only ones I mixed with were in the Labour group or you know politically active so they at least if not gave lip service kind of went

00:32:47.460 - 00:33:02.440

beyond that you know they wouldn't have argued against it but we were very aware the media were really not very supportive obviously not spare rib they were very supportive and you know maybe you would have got some women in the media I'm sure that would have been supportive but the general feeling you

00:33:02.440 - 00:33:23.660

got was that the country weren't really we were seen as a fringe some sort of mad fringe of dirty women that were willing to sleep in the mud and you know probably all lesbians and quite a lot of them were you know so what you know what does that matter and why why would that be an issue anyway you know but there

00:33:23.660 - 00:33:42.780

was this sort of portrayal of us being I don't know a sandwich short of a full packed lunch or something yeah quite dismissive I'm sure that you know the BBC probably would have played it down the line and been relatively okay about it but I don't think we generally felt that we were given much of a voice and

00:33:42.780 - 00:33:59.660

that's why more women went and more women protested and why they stayed as long as they did you know and got louder in the way they behaved because if you're not being heard you end up raising your voice don't you and drumming up more support I don't know whether that's what other women have said as well very

00:33:59.660 - 00:34:23.760

much so yeah there's particularly about the media that you know the portrayal that was really negative yeah and quite often they were ignored yeah had to fight quite hard to get yeah heard the media to come in the first place yeah yeah when they did they didn't report the truth unfortunately you've mentioned being a

00:34:23.760 - 00:34:40.060

couple of different gates what do you remember about each individual one and how were they were they all different from each other I think they were I couldn't pinpoint anything because I wasn't there enough or for long enough but you got a feel that there was a different and I suppose this is

00:34:40.060 - 00:34:56.440

inevitable isn't it that different gates would gather it would attract different women once a few women had settled in a gate then more like-minded women would go so I think there were there were some gates that were more lesbian and some that were more straight sexuality was quite important for the women there and

00:34:56.440 - 00:35:14.820

some that were a bit more hippie crafty you know of mother approach and some that were a bit more politically hard-nosed I remember that there were slightly different factions within green and common like they were with the settlement and hospital and probably reflect communities anyway but that some

00:35:14.820 - 00:35:35.420

would be you know we've got to just be more peaceful and placid and show by our behavior how things should be but others who were well that's not going to be enough and we have to be louder and agitate more and perhaps break the law more in order to get on the radar and for people to see how serious we are

00:35:35.420 - 00:35:56.440

to challenge authority there's always that debate raging between should you try and change the system from within or should you try and break out of the system and challenge it and we've got MPs now who are wrestling with exactly that issue and it was something that was so live in those days and I kind of imagine

00:35:56.440 - 00:36:14.240

I was wrestling with it myself and figured at that time I need to work outside the system and challenge it and I suppose when you were young that's the best time to do it because you can you know you've got the freedom you can do it but as you get older you have more vested interests in the status quo

00:36:14.240 - 00:36:34.000

mortgages and jobs and responsibilities for other people and it's more difficult to step outside the system and challenge it and I think the women at Greenham Common probably represented that paradox really as well that some of them couldn't break the law because they had children or jobs or whatever so

00:36:34.000 - 00:36:51.780

they had to be peaceful wholly peaceful and that might have also been in their nature some of them might have not had the vested interest that didn't want to and that was all respected but those that did feel I'm outside the system I'm going to challenge from without and my sister was definitely one of those

00:36:51.780 - 00:37:12.340

and I was until I joined the NHS and became inside the system trying to change it from within and did quite a lot actually so yes it's it's that that sort of debate I think that it's quite difficult and I think the different gates probably reflected some of that different political viewpoint as well as

00:37:12.340 - 00:37:28.960

women's sexuality and who got on with who and if there were children around they would have gathered more together now I can't remember which gate was which which was the lesbian gate which was the politically hard-nosed gate which was the children's gate I mean the fact that I went around and visited them

00:37:28.960 - 00:37:46.000

all probably reflected me that I was you know had lots of friends who were lesbians had children a child myself you know felt I was outside the system but also very respectful of the women who were working within the system or wanted to be wholly peaceful you know and I think those those endless debates

00:37:46.000 - 00:38:03.320

and discussions that were had at Green and which other women would have reflected to you as well and that democratic approach it a lot of it was about that do you change from without or within and what's your what's the best most effective approach and how do you be a role model as well you know if

00:38:03.320 - 00:38:21.740

you're fighting violence do you fight it with violence it's so hard to know you know we look at the anti-apartheid and Nelson Mandela he was a he was a an iconic source of inspiration for us at the time and he was saying that you have to fight violence with violence and sometimes you do don't you and the

00:38:21.740 - 00:38:39.060

government itself would fight violence with violence wouldn't it so you know who are you to judge sort of thing but then others saying no we have to lead the way like Gandhi and Martin Luther King and be peaceful in our approach and that's the only way to really prevail so you can imagine the

00:38:39.060 - 00:38:59.540

discussions that were had can't you oh I'm sure yes lots I mean women will you know like men have their arguments and I mean it was all done well not all done very respectfully I'm sure there would have been times when people marched out and people left Greenham and never went back again and you know people had

00:38:59.540 - 00:39:15.780

disagreements it's healthy it's normal isn't it and it was very democratic so everyone got their say and some people struggle with that level of democracy and don't put up with it and go and you know other people struggle with getting their voice heard even in a democratic situation you know so yes there were

00:39:15.780 - 00:39:37.120

tensions yes that's that's life it's us human beings were you aware of any of the women there who had problems with families or partners because of their involvement I'm sure there were I'm trying to think I don't think I knew enough I don't I didn't know well enough any of the women

00:39:37.120 - 00:39:52.900

who were living there to have been able to give you examples you know we would talk to the women listen to them they probably the focus of the conversation with us was probably more about what they were doing and that general approach and what else was happening in the world and in British you know

00:39:52.900 - 00:40:11.800

politics and the revolutionary movements that we felt we were part of whether they were actually revolutionary or not it's another matter but we we felt they were at the time you know we were really fighting the establishment so I think yes some women might have given us you know might have shared with us some of

00:40:11.800 - 00:40:30.140

that but I can't remember any details you were just aware that a lot of the women who lived there were giving up an awful lot they were sacrificing a lot in terms of their families and their work and their comfort and and being able to move on with their lives they had kind of put their lives on hold which is a

00:40:30.140 - 00:40:48.440

really incredible thing to do when you think about it and live a very uncomfortable life for something that they believed in and they were hurting no one you know they deserved a lot more respect than they ever got so it's a great mission that you're on to raise their profile now before it's too late

00:40:48.440 - 00:41:33.380

and they die without all that recognition. I've found every interview that I've done actually quite emotional from various points of view but yeah everyone's story and memories and experience, I've gone home and gone, oh good, I don't feel so bad for tearing up myself, people have had quite an emotional reaction sometimes haven't they to bringing their memories to the forefront for us and yeah it has been obviously you know just that whole idea of these amazing women all coming together for something so important to look back on for us is quite emotional so you know for the people involved to

00:41:33.380 - 00:42:39.780

be remembering it must be. I was hugely peripheral and the women who were living there, what they did, it was incredible, it really, really was. I think everyone had their part to play, you weren't peripheral at all, everyone's part was hugely important that's why it was such a success in the end. It's astounding what those women were doing at the time and the fact that there weren't reporters going in and really talking to them, I think it wouldn't happen now, I think that the reporters would go in and spend more time actually with the women and see how their families had disenfranchised them or excluded them and the way they were being treated by people. How important was creativity, the use of art and craft and song?

00:42:40.220 - 00:44:18.520

Yeah singing definitely, I mean I was definitely part of that and there were always chants but there are marches you know in any sort of movement that you get involved in people think up the funniest you know and cheekiest and they were very cheeky the women there and they would sing all sorts of things to taunt the soldiers and the police and you know about women never being wrong and all sorts of mischievous things, I can't remember very many of them but if someone sat next to me and started singing it I'd be singing along you know it would come back I know, so that was overridingly, we wouldn't tend to walk from base to base without singing or you know having some of that, it's very uplifting of the spirits to sing isn't it and to reinforce, you're always reinforcing in your subconscious brain when you're singing those things and you know you do believe them and it's worth fighting for and it's worth going through some hardship for, so I think it was a very strong way the song of keeping women together, focused, you know supportive and singing just makes you feel good as well, you know it's a natural human thing isn't it, singing and dancing. There were some women who were incredibly creative and would make those sort of dreamcatchers and all sorts of lovely, they would make the benders or the tents or whatever into a very homely environment, they were very earth motherly some of the women and you know whether they had children or not they would still create these little symbols of sort of you know all sorts of I don't know pagan or you know humanistic or you know different,

00:44:18.540 - 00:45:27.000

different religions, not mainly the, oh gosh I've got blue ink all over me, have I got it on my face as well? I was just looking at my fingers thinking yeah maybe it came from Nicola's letter. Ah yeah that must be it. Yeah do let me know if I need to wash my face. Yeah they would make or create all of that and I think it was often a sort of almost a you know a reaction against the male dominated religions but creating that more and respecting that more the woman earth and the femininity of the world and nature and the reproductive nature of nature and women and celebrating that through their art and crafts and material. You know lots of bits of material. I just remember going into some of the tents or camper vans or benders and being really struck by these little tassel-y things and just lots of symbolic things about mother nature, the earth, women, reproductivity, you know the feminine powers really that let's face it men are afraid of aren't they and you know counteract with their missiles.

00:45:31.120 - 00:46:29.560

Do you think that the camp might have been infiltrated politically or sabotaged in any way? I don't know you hear about you know some of those police that kind of you know subsequently were unveiled as having made those relationships. I think when I think back there were occasional moments in the South London Hospital and in Greenham where you know there was tension and there would have been a character, a person who seemed to be a little bit different to everyone else in their views or a little bit more antagonistic or something but I couldn't say that it was infiltration. You know it seemed at the time that it was the spectrum of you know different views and approaches and everyone was respecting everyone else's and the fact that someone had turned up and given of their time meant that they were worthy of respect and inclusion.

00:46:31.080 - 00:47:33.280

So we wouldn't have detected I don't think, I wouldn't have if someone had infiltrated. Women who were living there probably would have been more sensitive to that and seen more evidence of that. You were just aware that there was this whole spectrum of you that needed to be accommodated to be inclusive and embracing of everyone you know which was always the clear aim that everyone was welcome and that everyone should be included and treated with respect and equal value. So definitely wasn't aware at the time but wouldn't be surprised if someone was subsequently you know if that had happened because that was the way that they were behaving, the establishment. And there were quite you know some paranoia, there was some paranoia around you know women were worried that that sort of thing would happen and that they were being spied on and certainly we were worried that they were emitting from the base different like high-speed microwave type things.

00:47:33.280 - 00:47:56.540

I thought they were called zapping. Zapping, was that what it was? I think that's what other people have called it. Was it established that it was happening because we were worried about it. One of the last times when I went on December the 15th I went with a friend who her name was Suzanne actually and she was in the early stages of pregnancy and I'd written you know it was a bit of a squash last night but fairly warm, did a bit of yoga and me and Sally chatted.

00:47:56.540 - 00:48:32.280

Then Suzanne, a friend who was in the early stages of pregnancy started getting bad pains and bleeding. She thinks she's miscarrying so I ran around trying to find everyone so we could go home. She did miscarry, she was pregnant, she did miscarry and we were really worried that it was the zapping as you call it. We just were aware and yes, I've probably just forgotten the name of zapping but I know we were aware. Someone had said they're sending some sort of signals, waves, microwaves, something at us that people were aware of and we were really worried that that's what caused her to miscarry. I don't know, we'll never know will we.

00:48:33.040 - 00:49:11.380

Might have happened anyway, might not. But other people have mentioned that, that you know they would be asleep en masse when normally they'd be awake or that you know people were very ill for no reason. Other people have mentioned that certainly. In terms of political activism, what do you think we've learned from Greenham and how do you think Greenham has impacted on future generations involved in political activism? Gosh, it's tricky isn't it? Because I can't really disassociate myself from having been involved myself.

00:49:12.460 - 00:50:03.160

I don't think anywhere near enough credit has been given to the Greenham women for what they did and for the movement and the involvement of others in that whole you know protest against nuclear missiles. I think it's been completely underplayed by the politicians and they've taken all the credit for any changes and de-escalation of nuclear weapons. I think it probably hugely impacted on the people involved and you know people associated. I like to think that you know the approach of peaceful occupation and challenge really of the establishment was strengthened by Greenham because it went on for years and people were living there and so many people got involved.

00:50:03.160 - 00:50:40.580

It was huge. It must be one of the biggest, longest protests we've ever had in this country and it was by women. A lot of whom were mothers or you know young women, women with all sorts of health problems you know who just gave up their lives momentarily, you know temporarily suspended their lives to commit themselves to this. So I like to think that it has had an impact on subsequent movements. I don't know how much. I suppose journalists and people like that would be able to do a trail, an audit trail almost from Greenham to see how it would be lovely to see a map to show how that impact.

00:50:40.580 - 00:51:49.400

It would be lovely if your project was part of that map to show how we've built on those sort of bedrocks if you like of people saying we need to be democratic, we need to be inclusive. I mean all the things that I learnt through being involved in protest movements actually stood me in huge stead when I became an NHS manager because I was able to challenge in a way that was articulate, logical, reasonable, democratic, inclusive the status quo and achieve a lot for the people who were disenfranchised. I was able to come with far more awareness of different people and their different issues and how those issues needed to be addressed by the establishment and the NHS is part of the establishment very much so. It can perpetuate inequalities and it can help heal them and address them by the way it invests. So a lot of things like support for young mothers and teenagers and things like that because of what I'd seen in my protest movements and learnt in becoming more politically aware had really helped.

00:51:49.400 - 00:53:18.000

So for me personally I know that Greenham was quite transformational and I was then able to go on and be what I'm proud to have been a really good NHS manager that has managed to achieve a lot for ethnic minorities, for mothers, for people who have less resources or less ability to look after themselves. Those were standpoints that I was coming in and establishing. I worked a lot with, I didn't run hospitals, I worked in communities and planned services for whole communities. That was my calling if you like after going through all this political protest. So I worked for Newport for example and looked at the deprived estates in Newport and how could we address some of their health inequalities and I exposed their health inequalities, worked with the public health people to research and expose them and then challenged the health authority to address them with my planning which involved voluntary groups and the local council and residents, local residents. And I'd bring local residents up onto the stage and get them to speak about their experiences as single parents or people who'd been using drugs or alcohol and I'd challenge communities that said they didn't want to invest in drug and alcohol by saying to them, do you understand these people's lives? Do you know why they're abusing drug and alcohol? Are you judging them without even knowing that they might have been abused as children?

00:53:18.000 - 00:54:32.580

The system has let them down once, do we want it to let them down again in helping them to overcome this problem? Are you aware of these things? So I think every teenager should go through rebellion and protest and challenge. It's a rite of passage for becoming an adult who understands the breadth and depth of what exists in our society and can help to continue that process because it will never be ended of healing it and supporting it and developing it and embracing and celebrating the differences that lie within it. It's our strength. People see it as we're carrying these people because they're not productive. They don't realise how much we're all as individuals growing because of these people and they're actually giving and helping. It's part of our growth and it actually makes us better people and happier people as well. People just don't know these things. We need to be shouting them from the rooftops. There's so much evidence. For me, it was transformational. I would love to think that as a country and as the political movements that continue to go and I'm not as involved in them, I must go on that second referendum march that's going to be had because I really feel strongly for that.

00:54:35.820 - 00:55:52.500

That's the thing I feel most strongly about at the moment. But since having children, I've got this vested interest in the status quo now, haven't I? The establishment that I was talking about before. I've done my battling and now I'm a grandma. So I'm trying to raise the children, the next generation to be like them. So we'll see. Why do you think it is that the suffrage movement has been so celebrated and discussed whereas the peace movement in Greenham in particular has been roundly ignored? I think because with suffrage, it's an end point, isn't it? Once you've got the vote, and actually men didn't lose the vote by women gaining the vote, did they? They lost some of their influence, their power and domination, if you like. But there was an end point. Women have got the vote now. So tick the box. Yes, they achieved it. They did. Again, huge sacrifices, hunger strikes and violence and being locked up and losing their family and friends and what have you, and jobs, etc. But I think it's easier. And men, I hesitate to generalise, but women seem to be better able to deal with the sort of uncertainty and blurring of boundaries.

00:55:52.500 - 00:57:17.580

And, you know, general, the world as it is, you know, it's a messy place. Emancipation of women, tick the box, black and white, done. Yes, we can write in the history books. It's all neat. You know, men like that sense of there's a single focus, it's been achieved. We can say now, yes, that was great. But peace, it's a continual battle. It's one of those messy areas. You've got the other countries that become threatening. What do you do? Do you sit back and take it? You know, of course, you can't sit back and take it. You don't want to be run by all these aggressive, nasty countries, do you? So there's an element of, you know, discussion, debate. It's more difficult to look back on that protest and say, yes, that directly affected this and that's been achieved. And now we're all happy ever after. There's no end point, is there? It's going to be fought continually. It's going to be debated continually. People will, you know, look back at points in history and at different points, they'll say, oh, no, they were wrong to do that or they were right to do that. Or if they hadn't done that, this would have happened. You know, it's a continual stream of movement, isn't it? In a way that the emancipation of women isn't. So I think that makes it much harder for everyone to look back and say, yes, that directly led to that. And it's all that was the right thing. And it's all happy now. You just can't say that, can you?

00:57:17.860 - 00:58:26.960

I mean, I'd like to. Is there one moment or image or memory that sums up your Greenham experience for you? I think the embracing the bases. The other times when I went where it was lower key events that were going on or I was just turning up to support women. Yes, it was lovely. And you got to know the women who were living there better. So that was more satisfying in a personal level to actually be able to support them and bring them clothes, food, you know, talk with them, tell them how brilliant it was, you know, give them just moral support.

00:58:26.960 - 00:59:32.060

It was great, but there was something extra that you get. And I guess that's probably why I got involved in lots of protests and occupations and things like direct action. It was just that sense of being part of something bigger. And particularly when it was women only and feeling that that was feminine power, which is, you know, we're denied it most of the time when we're growing up, particularly as a teenage woman, you know, we're heavily denied our power. I just say this in terms of what women wear, you know, when you're a teenager, male control over what you're wearing. And I've had two daughters and they've got two daughters and I've got two stepdaughters who have got two step-granddaughters and one, we've got one boy in the family. And he's a darling and absolute love. And we all love them to bits. We love all of them to bits. Absolutely. But the thing is that, you know, men so heavily want to make judgments about what women are. I know there's nothing too green and common, but it kind of, it sums up why women would come together in that protected environment and feel that they're out of the control of men as well.

00:59:32.060 - 01:00:49.440

Because if you wear, and you're particularly judged as a teenage woman, everyone's looking at you when you're young, because you're young, you're a young woman. They see, the men see fertile, you know, they see young, they see exploitable, they see, you know, whatever, youth, it's, it's what they're attracted to. So you're either, if you're wearing something that makes you feel empowered as a woman, which is obviously, you know, which is often something short, you know, the little girls now they'll wear really short shorts. I used to wear the mini skirts, you know, that made me feel empowered. That's what I like. The girls like it because they can move better in it. Yeah, you can wear jeans and move in those. But, you know, we like our legs. We want to show them off. Why not? We're not showing them off to 40 year old men, because we want them to, you know, abuse us. We're showing them off to our friends. And, you know, anyone that looks, you know, it's okay to look, but we don't want you coming over to us and doing anything about it. That should be okay. And I think as teenage women, being able to express yourself through your clothes is really important and people should just accept it. Whatever it is you wear, you should be able to walk down the street naked and not be harassed or told you've got to wear this or that or the other. And similarly, if you want to wear baggy trousers and something that's really slobbish, you know, and when you're a greener woman, you are wearing those things because you're trying to keep warm and dry.

01:00:49.960 - 01:01:49.980

People should not be judging you and saying, oh, look at them, bunch of butch lesbians or whatever. You know, you're being judged all the time by what you wear. Apart from when you're in a group of women who are all supporting each other and focused on something that's greater than you. I mean, I'm not saying in a group of women, women aren't judging what they're wearing and stuff. They do. But, you know, when you've got a higher purpose, it gets put to one side, doesn't it? Whereas men seem to struggle with that higher purpose to stop them judging women and the way they look and everything. And I just think those, you know, when you're a young woman, being part of something like that was very empowering. And, you know, I just give that as an example, really, that whole thing of what women wear. My girls were able to wear whatever they wanted and I often got phone calls from the school telling me off for it. Maybe school skirt seems to have shrunk in the wash, they'd say, you know. I haven't got anything more important to worry about than whether my daughter's showing her bum at school, you know. The male teachers say I can't deal with that. Maybe they shouldn't be there.

01:01:49.980 - 01:02:44.760

Well, and the female ones as well. No, I know. You know, my older daughter went to school when she was 15 wearing a T-shirt that says, I've lost my virginity, can I have yours? Oh, she might have been 16, I hope she was. And one of the male teachers did say, yes! And I was like, oh my God, Scarlett, do you really want, you know, to be putting this message out? But, you know, I really didn't feel that I should, even as another woman, and hence their mother, be controlling what they wore. I think every woman should have the right to wear whatever they want. Absolutely. Is there one word that can sum up what Greenham means to you or your experience there? Solidarity, I suppose. Yeah. And so have other people said that.

01:02:45.220 - 01:02:54.740

We've had a range of answers from Grubby. Grubby, yes! For the women who lived there, that probably was the overriding thing. And joy. Joy, yes.

01:02:54.840 - 01:03:31.140

Solidarity is lovely. That's probably a bit cliche there, isn't it? Solidarity. No, that's brilliant. That's lovely. And my final question, this is what we're asking everyone. Could you explain why you think it's important that Greenham is remembered by subsequent generations? Why it's important. I think because there was a whole load, a massive load of women, and to some extent men too, because men did play a role at being supportive and bringing things in and coming to the base sometimes when they were allowed, you know.

01:03:32.140 - 01:04:22.440

But there was so many people that felt so strongly and so deeply and were giving up so much of their lives and their money and their work and their friendships and what have you, comfort, everything. They were giving up so much for what was a very, very difficult thing to achieve, you know, to fight the establishment at its very heart, because defence is the very heart of any government really. It's policy on how it's going to defend the country and the security of the country. And the fact that it was women that led it and women that really championed the future for their children and for their families and for people and to say a different approach is better than what we've had to date.

01:04:22.440 - 01:04:49.960

And I guess, you know, there's, again, it's that challenge which the suffragettes wrestled with, you know, fight from within or fight from without, be peaceful or be violent, you know. We're always having that debate. I think it's important for the future that people recognise that is a legitimate debate to have. We're never going to come to the answer. It's always going to be on a spectrum of grey. You know, the world is not black and white. It's full of colours and shades.

01:04:50.560 - 01:05:15.980

And we've got to, you know, and also this whole approach of being inclusive, respecting one another, whatever. You know, for me, Greenham really showed the way on that, perhaps in a way that the suffragettes struggled with more. They were more, there was the middle class ones and there was the working class ones. And there was a bit of overlap, but it wasn't as inclusive. It didn't have its consciousness was raised as Greenham did.

01:05:16.100 - 01:05:49.940

Greenham was leading the way on consciousness raising for women who were politically active and for any men that, you know, came along and had an open mind, really, and a supportive one. And I think, you know, it'd be lovely if it was recognised in the history books, the role that Greenham played for the women who were involved. And then all the things that we've then gone on to hopefully shape ourselves when we've left it. You know, I'd like to think that I've gone out into the NHS. I mean, I was recommended for Welsh Woman of the Year when it first started.

01:05:49.940 - 01:06:13.180

And Glenys Kinnock was giving the awards for women in the community because of the work I was doing in Newport. It's just an example. I mean, I did stuff elsewhere as well. But that was, I was in a particularly unique position when I was working in Newport where I was completely, I was the district health manager for Newport, planning it and shaping it. And I was given a lot of control and initiative. You know, I was empowered by the health authority of the day.

01:06:13.520 - 01:06:43.260

Subsequently, that's changed in the health service and you don't get that sort of power locally as a manager. But just that that's an example. I'm sure all the women in Greenham and everyone who was involved will have gone away, changed by that movement and in some way taking that to other areas of their lives. Whether it's work, whether it's raising children and grandchildren, whether it's family relationships and support, whether it's being a politician. Oh, you don't know. It's probably inspired people.

01:06:43.260 - 01:07:17.820

And we just don't know because what you're asking us now. So you're hearing that you're getting the evidence, which is so important because it's going to unearth and expose how those movements do change people and what comes next. And I don't know how because I've changed things, how that's then gone on to change things. You know, I know that my children have done some really good stuff that has been hugely helpful to other people, whether it's raising money for a charity or whether it's donating their breast milk to complete strangers. Which is what my younger daughter's been doing and was in The Guardian and she wrote an article for The Guardian about it.

01:07:17.860 - 01:07:36.240

It was published on October 16th last year, which is my granddaughter's birthday. So that's how I remember it, if you want to look back. But, you know, they've done their own. And I like to think that they've been shaped by me and I was shaped by Greenham. And Greenham was shaped by the women who were there. We were all shaped by each other. So that's worth remembering, isn't it?

01:07:36.620 - 01:07:36.980

Absolutely.