00:00:00.000 - 00:00:21.820

So, so if we perhaps start at the beginning, you know, how did, how did you get involved with the peace movement? I perhaps, you know, it was just around. I was living in Lancaster and the women that I knew, university, I suppose there was a university there, I was doing a teacher training

00:00:21.820 - 00:00:54.100

course at the time, my daughter was about two, and how, how, I ve no idea how. There were women s discos, there were, there was a women s aid place, there was a refuge in Lancaster. I don t know, somehow I got to know these women that were involved in all those things. And in singing and music and all sorts of things. And er, my friend Sue

00:00:54.100 - 00:01:21.400

used to hire a minibus and drive down to Greenham and it seemed to end up being my job to keep her awake by talking to her. And she always drove with bare feet, I remember, for miles. And we just, it was just fun, you know. It was the thing. It was the latest thing that was on. So did you start by going down on the odd occasion. Yeah. Or for big demos.

00:01:21.780 - 00:01:47.520

Right. Yeah, that s how it started. Right. And then I left Lancaster and went to live in this women s commune up in Scotland near Lauriston. And those women were much more, I would think, really, more radical than I was. And they all got arrested, put in prison, and then we had endless streams of women coming up to stay with us to recover from whatever

00:01:47.520 - 00:02:19.260

they d been through. Right. So, I think it became a bit of a centre really, probably. In Glasgow. No, this was in South West Scotland, near Lauriston. Ah right, sorry. For Coobrishire. Right. Lauriston Hall, there s a community. Right. And er, we were just young and idealistic, that s what I think now. Mm. Very idealistic. And er, oh, challenging everything really.

00:02:22.140 - 00:02:46.820

And so, did you go down for the big Embrace the Bass, er, yeah, what was that like? It was great. Lots of singing, big crowds of women. It was great fun. Yeah. I enjoyed it. It was good. And where did you, where did you stay? Greengate mostly. Right. And what was, and was Greengate, what was the sort of, em, the, the, cause all of the gates had

00:02:46.820 - 00:03:14.040

their own character and personalities didn t they. They did. Greengate was the more, em, welcoming to ordinary women, let s put it like that, who weren t really radicalised or anything. I think that it was more, we were there to welcome women really. That s what it felt like. To make them feel OK about, you know, not to, where some of the others were very harsh and

00:03:14.040 - 00:03:37.640

er, if you didn t look right, you didn t get in sort of thing, you know. I mean, er. And did you have experience of that when you, em, when you first arrived, cause I guess you must have made your way to. Oh, no, then there was all the class stuff as well, and I m very middle class, so that was a bit of a issue in some places. As soon as I opened my mouth, people go,

00:03:37.640 - 00:04:04.600

Oh, she s one of them, you know. So what, what were the, what was the issue with, with class then? Well, because we were challenging everything, I think middle class people like me had been, I d been taught how to speak, if you like, or to speak up. I had elocution lessons at boarding school, you know, all that stuff. So I knew how to address people in a way,

00:04:04.600 - 00:04:31.600

to some extent. Not that I did much of it cause I m quite shy really. But er, the working class women didn t like it. They didn t like to be just in the same way that men think that everyone ought to listen to them. They felt that middle class women, because they spoke out, or could speak out, only spoke about one lot of people. It wasn t about

00:04:31.600 - 00:04:58.220

everybody and that it wasn t, it wasn t equal, it wasn t fair, it wasn t, it, well we didn t, I didn t speak for them, basically. I didn t, it s true. I can t deny that. I only spoke for myself. But em, it got to a point where I was afraid to open my mouth, I ll tell you that much. You know, you actually became so aware of all those issues, you thought, Oh my God.

00:04:58.220 - 00:05:22.940

Keep your mouth shut Rose, you know. It was heavy, you know. It was, it was making you think about all the power issues everywhere in your life and making you think about it, whether you bloody wanted to or not actually. You had to. And you had to have an opinion and you had to have a, have thought about it. The worst thing you could say was, Oh I haven t

00:05:22.940 - 00:05:46.180

thought about that. Yeah. And be naive and ignorant. That was the worst you could be. So, and was that, was, was that a, did you have sort of big, er, collective meetings where you would all get together. Yeah, yeah. Because it doesn t sound like Greengate might have been so judgmental. No, it wasn t, it wasn t. It was much more,

00:05:47.180 - 00:06:10.960

vanilla-y I suppose you might say. Yeah. Much more, em, probably more middle class as well. My impression was that the Bluegate was much more working class, harder, women who were prepared to do more violent things as well. And that, that, and go to prison. I mean, you did have to think about, am I, and I wasn t prepared to go to prison because I had Hannah

00:06:10.960 - 00:06:28.280

and I was the only one responsible for her and I was not going to put her in that position. So, although I didn t, I wasn t completely clear about that in my own head, I didn t ever go to prison, you know what I mean. I just didn t, I didn t do things that would have got me into prison whereas other women deliberately did.

00:06:28.680 - 00:06:56.100

You know. Yeah, and I think that s, you know, there s, there s nothing. Yeah. I mean, the collective nature of it presumably meant that people could, could choose. Yes. Whether they did or they didn t. Definitely. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And how, how did you feel the collective worked? I mean, was it an effective, er, non-hierarchical, I mean, you, you know,

00:06:56.100 - 00:07:27.200

you ve already kind of suggested that there was a hierarchy in some respects, politically or in to class terms if nothing else. I think with most people there, there, there was an awareness of trying to avoid being hierarchical. So, middle class women like me didn t, deliberately didn t take over, let s say. However,

00:07:27.200 - 00:07:55.180

when it came to doing things like giving, em, paper reports or talking to the police or dealing with authority in one way or another, those women who were middle class were much actually better at it in terms of being on the same, knowing how to be polite was helpful, you know what I mean. Whereas if you were just screaming, shouting, you bastards, da da da da da,

00:07:56.060 - 00:08:24.080

you know, it wasn t going to work, you know what I mean. So, so in some situations, the more middle class people inevitably did the talking, I would say, the negotiating. Yeah, I do get the impression that, em, women were very, em, because of the non-violent direct action that, er, violence in language as well wasn t really the way that, you know,

00:08:24.080 - 00:08:49.500

it seemed cleverer than that. Yes, exactly. And, and humour seemed to be used quite a lot as well, to, to almost, you know, in a quite, sometimes in a gentle way and sometimes possibly not, to mock the authorities and, you know, prick their bubble sort of thing. Yes, definitely. There was a lot of creative things that people, people did, individuals did,

00:08:49.500 - 00:09:22.260

that were really clever, really clever and really, em, what s the word, circuitous or sort of, you know, like a clowning can be very revolutionary actually but it does it in a way that you don t even realise they re doing it. Very clever, very em, not direct. So there was a lot of stuff that happened like that, that was brilliant,

00:09:22.480 - 00:09:54.180

you know, really good. What sort of stuff, can you remember anything? I remember there was, there was a woman artist there who did some amazing work. I can t, oh, what s her name, blimey. Was it Jay? I think she went up and lived in the Hebrides at one point. She did some really clever art stuff using, using rubbish in effect, stuff that was just around.

00:09:54.820 - 00:10:17.880

She would make things, like make scarecrow like wild figures and just great, you know, really imaginative and she definitely worked on her, she just had a particular quirky way of seeing things and would get on with doing it her own, very quietly, would just do something but it would be just spot on, you know, just yeah, great.

00:10:18.800 - 00:10:47.920

And were there any sort of artist protest type, em, things that you can remember? No. No. No, not really. I mean, I think, I think the em, the sanitary towel on the, er. On the fence. On the fence is, is. Yes. I mean, that for me is, you know, that s a, quite an artistic protest. Yes. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. So. Yeah. Sorry, go on. Sort of shocking but in a,

00:10:47.920 - 00:11:14.320

not in a harsh way I suppose you could say. But in clever, undermining, devious ways. Yeah, undermining is a good word I think for, for. Yeah. For what I ve seen, you know, just, yeah. And in terms of the contact between the guards and the police on the gates as well. We talked to them. We laughed with them. We, you know, we tried to

00:11:15.400 - 00:11:43.000

get them to see our points of view. You know, not be our enemies, not be. And some of them, it, it worked with some of them, you know. And in the end, I think that is what worked, you know. It did work. It did stop that whole base closed down. And I think it was all those much softer, direct communication things that worked best.

00:11:44.620 - 00:12:09.960

Really. So how, how did they respond to you, the police and the, and the soldiers? Well, very differently. Some of them were, you know, we re not even going to talk to you who don t even exist. Others were chatty and humorous and fine. Just depended, you know. But it did depend on partly on how we were with them as well. It was an exchange, you know. And are there

00:12:09.960 - 00:12:35.900

any conversations you can particularly remember with them? No. No, that s right. I can t. Yeah, and again, em, some of the women have told me that they ve, you know, had conversations with them where the soldiers have said, oh yeah, I ve got a sister. Yes. Exactly. You got to know them because they were there for a while, you know. And they were as bored as anyone standing around

00:12:35.900 - 00:12:58.560

on this gate, you know, freezing cold in the middle of winter. They loved it when we were all singing and dancing. So were the songs a big part of, of Greenham? Oh, big. Yeah, yeah. Well, for me anyway because I m a bit of a singer so I loved it. Yeah. And were the songs just sung, was it a sort of round the campfire thing or was it just all the time?

00:12:59.040 - 00:13:26.620

Lots round the campfires but when we did the circling of the base things, songs would come round. I mean, this, you know, is a few miles long. Would come round, different songs, lots of different songs. Em, I circle around, I circle around the, what s that one? Em, oh, Worry my long tail feathers as I fly. That one, you know that one?

00:13:26.840 - 00:13:56.000

Yeah. And there were lots of songs that went around that people knew and that just sort of, got taken up and moved round, you know, went round. What, what difference do you think singing made? What was the? Oh, I just think it brings people together. I think it s a wonderful thing. Enjoyable, uniting thing really. And do you think that, that feeling of being united was

00:13:56.880 - 00:14:25.860

important to the, to the protest or just to the women generally? Yeah. Yeah, it was for me, definitely. And was it? And empowering because we were all, because I suppose, yeah, my, one of my best friends, Aggie, had a car. She was a mechanic. And it was all, all the sorts of women who could do things like that who became really important because she could

00:14:25.860 - 00:14:46.460

mend cars. And that was really needed. We didn t want to go to a garage where there was a man who was going to do it. We wanted Aggie to do it, you know. So she d be, you know, Aggie, come over to this gate, you know, come over to that gate, you know, and the batteries run out, you know. She was quite a heroine really. And she, she ended up going all round Canada doing talks about Greenham

00:14:46.460 - 00:15:12.000

as well. Wow. Nearly knackered her completely but, yeah, she became quite a heroine. What an opportunity though. Pardon? What an opportunity. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, she was paid for. Everything paid for and looked after as she went about all round Canada giving talks and slideshows and everything. So did you ever get involved with, with the, the money at the camp or anything like

00:15:12.000 - 00:15:38.360

that? No. No. And what, what was, how, how were the, the sort of, em, meetings where everybody came together, the sort of more collective meetings, were they, how were they sort of run in terms of the, the non-hierarchical collective manner. How did women get to. I don t remember them. I m not really somebody who enjoys meetings much, to be honest. I probably did, avoided them

00:15:38.360 - 00:16:06.660

like the plague. My impression was that they were very mixed and that some, that there were big arguments that went on as well as, you know, it was like, it was just, it was a time of questioning everything. Everything. Even the language that you used was liable to be jumped on. You know, you had to be really careful what you said for fear of being, er, bloody patriarchal, er,

00:16:06.660 - 00:16:39.960

that language. You had to mind your P s and Q s. Definitely. So I think I tended to avoid, actually, I tended to avoid all those sort of situations really. And what I enjoyed doing was the singing and the dancing and the more sociable stuff I suppose really. And so, when you started going, when you started visiting when Hannah was two, and you, you were,

00:16:40.100 - 00:17:03.100

you were still with, but did you then go and live on the, at Greenham at some point. No, I never actually lived there. Right. But some of the women that I lived with in Scotland did. Right. Yeah. So, you, so from two till, when, when she was two till four, you twoed and froed. Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that s, that s quite a long time of er, particularly if you d moved to,

00:17:03.100 - 00:17:27.680

to Scotland, that must have been quite a commitment. I mean, I moved all the time. I was one of these people who just, I think when I was young, I just went where the energy was to be honest. You know, I just thought, Oh yeah, this, this is good fun. Let s go there, you know. This is where er, I was right hippie before that. You know what

00:17:27.680 - 00:17:57.700

I mean? I just, I feel like I was just born in 1951 at a time when, after the wars I suppose, people wanted something better. And I, all that optimism that we were born into somehow, I just rode that wave I think with, you know, gurus and meditation and going to India, all that sort of stuff. I just did it all. I just did it all and I loved it.

00:17:57.820 - 00:18:11.700

That s a really interesting connection I think. The sort of post war, because I think, you know, women had that, that, that sudden liberation didn t they. Exactly. In terms of jobs and what they were allowed to do and then leave, just went straight.

00:18:11.700 - 00:18:40.980

Go and be mothers. My mother hated it. She d been a nurse in the war and loved it. And hated being a suburban housewife. And I think her frustration and her sense of women can be more than what she was brought up to be certainly. We inherited that, you know. We, we picked up on that. And free, I mean, all the things we had free. Free education, went to university, didn t pay a penny.

00:18:41.460 - 00:19:12.280

You know. It was brilliant. It was a brilliant time to be young and you could just get a job if you wanted. You know, there were hundreds of jobs. You know. It was easy. So much easier than it is now. So much more difficult for young people now. Much, much more difficult. I felt, I felt, and I, I had had a very supportive father who was, you know, certainly

00:19:12.280 - 00:19:35.960

much more enlightened than most men probably. And a Quaker and all sorts of good things, you know what I mean. I had a lot of good upbringing really that encouraged me to be very confident and to believe that I had a right to do what the hell I wanted. And I did. So, so was the, was religion, er, sort of visible at the, at the camp?

00:19:35.960 - 00:20:05.540

Oh, it was interesting. A lot of the Quaker pacifists groups came to the camp, and you could tell them. They were mostly older women for a start. And they were quietly very strong, you know, and you had to admire their quiet determination, you know. They were great. I I really enjoyed meeting some of them. And some very intelligent, highly educated,

00:20:06.540 - 00:20:33.720

em, and articulate women. Yeah. And so how, how old were you when you went there? So you would have been. Twenty-seven, twenty-eight. Yeah. And in the conversation with Kate, you said that, that you also realised that a lot of the women who had gone to Greenham were quite damaged. Em, can you tell me a bit more about that? Well, after I left the community, I lived in

00:20:33.720 - 00:21:05.140

Innscotland and went to live further south, I did a therapy training and, which was a bodywork therapy training, and er, became a therapist. And with Aggie actually, did lots of workshops all over the country. And the style that we were trained in was very much about expressing yourself in one way or another. And it actually involved a lot of screaming,

00:21:05.400 - 00:21:31.560

shouting, bashing questions, letting it all out, basically. Which for a lot of women, they had never been given permission to do that. And so it all came out. And, you know, now I think it wasn t very, em perhaps not wise in some ways to get people to do that sort of thing on a weekend and then send them home to cope with the results. You know what

00:21:31.560 - 00:21:59.880

I mean. It was a bit irresponsible perhaps. But it did sort of, it did allow a lot of expression of things that hadn t been expressed before, let s put it like that. And a lot of abuse stuff came up. Hell of a lot. Hell of a lot. It was like a sort of a hidden thing that actually was coming out at that time, you know, beginning to come out as it has done more and more I suppose ever since.

00:22:02.900 - 00:22:30.140

And a lot of the, a lot of the women certainly that I met in Todmorden, I lived in Todmorden in Lancashire for a while, which is quite a lesbian stronghold now anyway, em they hated men because of the way that they d been treated by their father s uncles or whatever. And didn t know that. A lot of people didn t realise that that was what was behind it and only through

00:22:30.140 - 00:23:13.680

therapy did they discover that they d been abused or whatever, you know, so I mean, I, I don t know. I don t hate men. I never did hate men, let s put it. So I m different like that. I had a very good father. And em I did find it all a bit, why do they hate men so much? Why are they so, all men are absolutely, you know, that s what they used to say, you know,

00:23:13.680 - 00:23:49.500

really, all men are absolutely, wait a minute, you know, so and so isn t, or so and so isn t, you know, what, what. And although I was really into creating a society which worked without men in lots of ways, I didn t hate them like that. Really I didn t. So I think I was coming from a different place. And were these, these were women who came up for these workshops from,

00:23:49.600 - 00:24:17.080

from Greenham for the weekend or some of them? No, all over the country. Right. This was later. Right. It s, this was, that would be more in the 1980s I guess. Right. And I d done the training. Yeah. And do you think that was a, an attitude that was held in some of the camps in, at Greenham? Yeah. For the same reasons, you think, with the same kind of, em, the same root in terms of abuse

00:24:17.080 - 00:24:43.280

or. Well, there was all the political stuff as well, of course. I mean, you know, patriarchy basically. But, but also, I think it was the first, maybe for a lot of people, it was the first time they had been in only women situations. And just living without men makes you realise a lot of things, you know. It just does. Well, what can t we do? What can we

00:24:43.280 - 00:25:13.220

do? Oh, we can do, we can do this, we can do that, we can do everything, you know. I mean, it was great. It was very, very empowering. Very empowering. And very supportive. I, I met Monica Shue when I was on a demo going across Salisbury Plain and er, we became good friends. And she was an amazing woman. I really liked her. A lot of people found her really difficult but I

00:25:13.220 - 00:25:42.180

think perhaps because I was tall and loud and confident like she was, you know, we, we just sort of, yeah, you re alright, you know. It s alright. We can handle each other. And I remember there was a, a circle, I think at the Green, Greengate probably, where I don t know, how did it happen? I don t know whether I was already starting to do therapy

00:25:42.180 - 00:26:16.840

in effect or counselling. Maybe it was the co-counselling thing. But we were all getting into our feelings about men, let s put it like that, and she just went for it, Monica did. And er, I held her and grounded her. And I suppose that s partly where I discovered I could do that, you know what I mean. I could actually be a rock. So, even someone like Monica. Yeah.

00:26:21.860 - 00:26:51.540

Yeah. I, I think my personality is such that I tend to be more of a support person than a rebel rouser, let s put it like that, as to my character. So that was the role that I found myself in more. Yeah. So, em, in terms of er, how you lived when you went down there, would, would you stay in somebody s bender or did you have, er, you, you just had, there d be. Or make a

00:26:51.540 - 00:27:18.020

bender, yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. And how did you learn how to do that? We looked at others and worked it out, I suppose. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, there were all sorts of benders. There were all sorts of amazing structures. Yeah. Some more successful than others. Sure. Oh dear. I mean, I ve camped all my life,

00:27:18.080 - 00:27:40.560

so I ve always been an outdoorsy sort of person, so I ve always had those skills really. Yeah. And so you were obviously there sort of towards the, like eighty four was it when the eviction, you started doing the evictions. And what, what was that like? That must have been quite frightening, I guess. Quite. Quite

00:27:40.560 - 00:28:03.260

frightening in some respects because the bailiffs were fairly. I don t think I was frightened by anything. I m, I m, I, in, when I was young, I rode motorbikes, I went travelling, I did anything I wanted and nothing really fazed me. I wasn t the sort of person to be frightened by anything really. I m a bit more cautious nowadays, I was telling you, but in those days I was up for

00:28:03.260 - 00:28:32.700

anything really. Yeah, come on, let s do it. Yeah, come on. So how, how was, how, what, what happened during the evictions? What did you get, like, any advance notice? Sometimes there would be screaming, you know, various things. You d all wake up and grab your stuff and run or stay there and get caught or do whatever you did, you know. And if you got caught, what,

00:28:32.760 - 00:29:06.140

what would that mean? If you resisted arrest, which some people, women did, they would haul you off and take you to the cells and book you and then the whole court process thing went on. Em I, I, I don t know how, but I managed not to get caught somehow, one way or another. I didn t actually get caught. And did you ever go on to the base? Yeah. Oh yeah. Did all sorts

00:29:06.140 - 00:29:30.160

of stuff. Cutting the fence. All that sort of business. I thought those things sound like the sort of things that you could get arrested for. Yes. But I mean, to get arrested, you had to stand your ground and be arrested. If you hightailed it off. Right. They wouldn t catch you. Right. You know what I mean. So I mean, that s what I did basically. I

00:29:30.160 - 00:29:58.020

didn t get, I made sure I didn t get arrested. And have you still got your bolt cutters? No. Bolt cutters just came and went through one s hands. I didn t own any. Some women have still got theirs. Have they? Yeah. Painted green and purple. Who knows. Who knows. I haven t seen them, but yeah, I m sure. So how, when your daughter tells you things

00:29:58.640 - 00:30:19.020

about how scared she was and her getting arrested and so on, how, how do you feel about that? Thoroughly guilty. Thoroughly guilty. I don t think I should have exposed her to that. I should have looked after her better. I certainly should have recognised that she s a Canceri and I m an Ares. I mean, she s a quiet, creative,

00:30:21.100 - 00:30:45.120

she s not like me. You know what I mean. I should have recognised that and given her more security than I did, I think. Yeah. I think it was hard for her being my daughter. I do think that now. But I mean, she s OK, you know. She s now a very successful theatre designer in London. She s very creative. She earned lots of money. She s doing brilliantly. Yeah. So,

00:30:45.640 - 00:31:10.980

you know, I don t think it was the end of the world. No. No. I think, I think she must have had a strong enough character to be able to manage it. When we were at Greenham, we all dyed our hair pink and blue at one point. So she, of course, wanted her hair dyed pink and blue. So I took her to her working class,

00:31:11.740 - 00:31:35.980

Middlesbrough grandmother s house to be looked after, who just freaked. I cannot have my granddaughter out in the street with pink hair. It s not going to happen. Put a hat on her, on Hannah s head and took her down to the, em, hairdressers and got her to dye it brown again. So Hannah had everything. She had a really lovely, she was a wonderful grandmother.

00:31:36.460 - 00:31:57.620

Much more supportive than my parents were. She was the first grandchild of a Catholic family, so she was, you know, she had a big place in the family. And er, their daughter, their daughter. And she loved going to stay with them, so Hannah learned. She learned. You know, blue hair up in Scotland but down in Middlesbrough you do not have blue hair. It s not going to

00:31:57.620 - 00:32:21.040

happen. And I think that s good for kids. Yeah. They learn. They learn there s different rules in different places. Very different rules. Yeah, cos there were, there were women who were quite scared that they were going to, that being at Greenham was going to create a situation where they might have the children taken away from them. Absolutely. Hannah s father went to Australia

00:32:21.040 - 00:32:44.020

luckily. When we split up. He was very, very upset. It was dreadful. But I was adamant I was going to become a lesbian and I was not having anything more to do with men. That was it. Sorry mate. Bye bye. And he, we tried to share her but he couldn t hack it. He couldn t hack it at all. So he went off to Australia and I was really glad. I, that was the best thing as far as I

00:32:44.020 - 00:33:14.580

was concerned he could have done. Cos he could have taken me to court in those days and got her off me. Yeah. And did that happen to anybody that you were aware of? No, not that I, but I d heard about it. I had heard that that could happen. Cos in those days I think the courts thought lesbians were not fit mothers fundamentally. And, yeah. I did hear about it happening. I didn t know anyone

00:33:14.580 - 00:33:43.540

personally. But, em, yes, I was glad that he went to Australia basically. And where is he, is he still there now? Yeah. Is he? Yeah, we, we, we re back in touch. Things are fine and he s, he s back in touch with Hannah and, yeah. Good. That sounds good. Sounds healthy. Yes. Yeah. I m glad. Yeah. I want her to have a relationship with him now. I didn t in those days but now I do.

00:33:43.540 - 00:34:14.380

Well, I think, you know, that, that kind of, em, ability to, to say I m taking her away is, you know, it s, it s not an equal relationship whereas hopefully now it is. Yeah. So, and she gets to choose as well, doesn t she? She can do what she wants to do. Em, so, do you think, do you see anywhere where the sort of non-violent direct action is, is used in sort of more recent

00:34:14.380 - 00:34:34.560

protests? Have you seen anything you think, oh yeah, we did that, we did that at Greenham. We did, you know, any of the sort of Occupy type protests or anything like that? I really like that, em, that bloke who dug tunnels. What was he called? Swampy or something. Oh yeah. Do you remember him? I loved all that sort of stuff. I thought that was brilliant,

00:34:34.560 - 00:35:01.440

you know, the way that they, and some of the em, there were some demos in Derbyshire about the quarries that they were taking all the quarry stone out and, you know, distributing it around the world and decimating the quarries and there were people living in the woods up near, em, Nine Ladies Stone Circle up just near here. And I used to go and take them food and stuff at

00:35:01.440 - 00:35:26.960

one point. But I mean, basically, I think my whole orientation has changed from being very political when I was in my twenties. Maybe this happens to a lot of people, I don t know. And then settling down, then getting into therapy, then bringing up children and then becoming an artist. You know, it s like, that s a pattern that probably goes for a lot of people.

00:35:26.960 - 00:35:52.700

I had to earn a living somehow, so I became a, partly because of that, I became a therapist. Now, I m living on a state pension. I haven t got to fucking earn money at last and I can do whatever I want and I bloody love it. I have no one else to support and I can live, you know, on my own terms and do what I want. It s fucking great. I m just lucky, I m so lucky that I ve got

00:35:52.700 - 00:36:25.760

all that, what, reserves of self-reliance that mean I can do that, you know. Shall I show you some of the things I ve just made? Yeah. Let me show you. I ve got pictures on here. It s not going to be good on the recording. Yeah, don t worry about it. I ve just made some, er, shields for a, er, shamanic group locally. Em, I don t want that. You want, da da da da, that.

00:36:31.220 - 00:37:07.860

So, press the thing. They re made out of, em, willow frame and then wet strength tissue paper with cellophane and wool and all sorts of things on them. Oh, I love the seahorses. Do I swipe to get? You, in the bottom, there s, there are four of them, four directions. There s, er, air, water, earth and firewood. Fantastic. That s lovely. The wood at the bottom is gorgeous as well. That,

00:37:08.580 - 00:37:38.560

this bit here. Yeah. This bit here. So, they re sort of see-through. They re a bit like stained glass as well that, you know, you get the sun in the right position, you can hang them up and they see through them. Fantastic. They re gorgeous. Really lovely. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, they re pretty solid as well actually. Pretty, oh yeah. Yeah, they re quite, well it wouldn t be

00:37:38.560 - 00:38:08.920

good to get them wet but. No. Apart from that, they should stand up. So is that for something that is happening locally? Is that for a, er. Yeah. Have you heard of Glenny Kindred? She s written various books about, em, trees and Celtic spirituality I suppose you d call it. And she s got a group called The Elementals who are all big, they do a lot of eco,

00:38:11.280 - 00:38:34.620

em, protesting. I forgot what the latest thing they re doing is. They ve got a name, I can t remember what it is now. But I m, what s the word. I m much more reclusive than I used to be, let s put it like that. I don t want to be in lots of groups and I m much happier being on my own. Yeah, I m doing my own thing these days. Yeah, doing, doing your art and giving it to them

00:38:34.620 - 00:39:01.700

and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think, again, I ve, so I ve interviewed, I interviewed a couple of women in Glastonbury and one in Western Superior and generally they live on their own or they live with another woman and em, they have, yeah, they are pretty self-sufficient I think. Yeah. I mean, reclusive is a, you know, implicit in that is a judgement, isn t it, and I think, em,

00:39:02.680 - 00:39:31.080

I just think they re happy, you know, with themselves. Yeah, exactly. Which is, you know, quite something in this day and age, isn t it? Yeah. So, yeah, em, so, what would you say would be, if, if you were talking to women, you know, if you were running a workshop and you were talking to young women now who maybe haven t even heard of Greenham, em, and the protest, which, which a

00:39:31.080 - 00:39:59.720

lot haven t, em, what would you say would be the legacy? What, what is it that you would like to know about, them to know about Greenham? What, what is it that future generations should take? We did it. We succeeded. That s the best thing about it. We actually got that bloody place closed down. And the strength of women together was just mind-blowing. Really different from

00:40:00.240 - 00:40:28.280

working or demonstrating with men, where it often gets violent. It s just different. It s very different and very em well, very effective and very quietly powerful I would say really. So what, what do you think the main differences are? The, the, the non-violence.

00:40:28.680 - 00:41:12.800

Yeah. Is a big one I think. Big one. Very big one. I mean, I m quite sure there are some men who would not be violent. I m not saying that all men are violent at all. No. But just say no. Just say no. I m not doing that. And having the confidence to stand up and say no. It s very good. It s great. It works if you really mean it. And you say no. I m not moving.

00:41:14.880 - 00:41:53.800

And I mean, I just think it s. It works. I think it works fundamentally or something. Because anyone knows if somebody means it or they don t mean it. And if you mean it and you really stand your ground, other people back away. They don t, they don t bother, you know. So, what was the, em, relationship, er, like as far as you were concerned with the local residents?

00:41:56.540 - 00:42:23.780

Mixed. Some people invited us in and gave us food and came with food and were very supportive. Other people were absolutely terrified of us and literally shut their windows and curtains when we came past. Oh my God, it s that lot again. I think, em, a gang of us went up to Calanish Stone Circle in Lewis one time with the kids, several kids.

00:42:24.660 - 00:42:47.060

And the people, I mean Scottish people, they were just so wonderful. They, it was pissing with rain all the time. We were sort of squatting in an old cottage, you know. And they just said, let, let us have the kids. The poor bloody kids were getting soaked. And they entertained our children while we did whatever we did round the Stone Circle.

00:42:49.620 - 00:43:16.480

And despite the fact that they took one look at us and probably thought, oh my God, what we got here. They were human and they were kind and, I don t know, I think, and the kids felt that and they felt really safe. And they just watched telly and got fed meat and God knows what in these people s houses and they loved it, you know.

00:43:16.480 - 00:43:44.860

Em, so, cos Greenham particularly I think is quite a Tory, er, kind of area. Em, and although I know that, that, you know, there were some really nice people up there, em, my understanding is that, that the general population, you know, when you went in for food or to go to the shops or to go to the pub or something, that there was, there was. It was very tricky going to the pubs.

00:43:44.860 - 00:44:17.160

Yeah, I think that was a bit, I don t, well, I don t think I hardly ever went into the pubs round there. I think you would have encountered a lot of antagonism, especially from the men. Because I ve just had my knees done and I ve been staggering around, unable hardly to walk for about a year. I ve had incredible amounts of help from people and I ve been so touched

00:44:17.660 - 00:44:43.600

by complete strangers. Can I help you? Can I do this? Can I do that? Everywhere I ve gone. And I think that when I was young, I put myself outside of society very visibly in the way that I looked and my attitude to the rest of the normal people. Wrote them off. Arrogant. Arrogant. Really arrogant. And I really feel differently now.

00:44:43.700 - 00:45:08.220

I really feel like actually, ordinary people, like those people in the, in Lewis, are just amazing and wonderful and kind and I wish I hadn t been as arrogant as I was when I was young. And I feel like I m just a human being now. You know what I mean. Yeah. Like everybody else. I m not this bloody world saving champion or something. I thought I was.

00:45:12.480 - 00:45:32.420

But it s the youth, isn t it. That s just what you, young people think they re going to change the world. And we really thought we were going to change the world. Yeah. And you, you look at people who are ordinary, in inverted commas, and you think, well I m not going to be like that. That s not going to be my life. Em, which is, which is a good thing in some respects because

00:45:32.420 - 00:45:53.040

I don t think otherwise you d have gone to Greenham. No. That, that s, you know, it s important to, to have those times. But look at the house I live in now. Yeah. Noble, normalness and couldn t be more normal in the world really. Yeah. But, you know, but nice and comfortable. Yeah. You know, it s your, your castle. Yeah. And people only come in if you

00:45:53.040 - 00:46:12.480

want them to and, you know, I think that s, you know, and what happens in here and what you do in here and how you, you know, what spaces you have for what, you know, for your art or whatever is, you know, how you run the inside of your house is completely up to you. Yeah. So this can be as alternative as you want. I ll never live communally again as long as I live, I can assure

00:46:12.480 - 00:46:46.500

you of that. Never ever again. Did that run its course then, eventually. Oh God, it did it just, woah. Dreadful. Absolutely dreadful. No. And I never want to hardly even go to meetings anymore cos I just think it s full of egocentric gits who want to be heard. And I can t be doing with it. No. No. No, no, no. Meetings, communal things. Urgh. It s my idea of hell. Absolute bloody hell.

00:46:46.800 - 00:47:08.160

Much rather just go out and do it wherever it is and spend hours talking about it. On Aries, you know. Yeah, I think, I think that, I mean it s a massive generalism but I do think that is a factor of age. I mean, you know, some people with age seem to like, get more into meetings. They love it. They want to talk about it all. Yeah. I m just not like that. It s not in my

00:47:08.160 - 00:47:34.200

nature. No. I ll do it. I ll do something, fine. But I don t want to talk about it for days on end. I hate it. Absolutely hate it. So do you think, do you think Greenham had an influence on the rest of your life? Yeah. Greenham specifically. Oh God, yeah, definitely. In, in what ways? Well, in the fact that I became a lesbian. I became a, someone who thought,

00:47:35.720 - 00:48:09.300

you know, well I suppose I always, I didn t know my father. I did always have a sense that I had a right to an opinion. But something about being in a gang as well, it s a bit like when you re a minority group, there s a big, em, sense of belonging and almost like family-like sort of feeling about it all and I did love that. I did love the fact that we were all doing this together

00:48:09.300 - 00:48:36.640

and wow, you know. A sense of belonging. Good, good fun, you know, it s good energy. So were you not out, or did you not think that you were a lesbian before you went to Greenham? Well, I don t think I am. I don t think I ever was just a lesbian. I think I m bisexual. Probably most people are. They let themselves be. But I mean, I took that on as my identity er, when, was it,

00:48:36.640 - 00:48:56.740

no, it was before Greenham actually. Just before Greenham. About feminis, feminism and, when I was living in Bentham, Mickey My sister in law used to It was just the latest thing. That s what I think. It s like being a hippie. You know, that s where the energy, that s where good, great things were happening so I was just drawn to it,

00:48:56.760 - 00:49:33.860

you know. And how important for you was the women only space at Greenham? It was great. I liked it. I enjoyed it mostly. It was empowering. It was we re doing this. It was a sense of us. Yeah. That s what I got out of it. Us. Yeah, that us thing. It s a bit of a cop out really I suppose. I mean, I, you know, I don t,

00:49:33.860 - 00:50:01.040

in some ways I don t think I was terribly responsible. I m not a deep thinker, you know. I don t, I know some people do think about everything they do and really analyse it and I don t, I m not like that, you know. I just go where I think it s have a good time really. No, I think that s awful but it s true. No, it doesn t. It doesn t at all. You re, you know, I think er, people are allowed

00:50:01.040 - 00:50:25.800

to have a good time and I think, I think people had different motivations for going there but I don t think people would have gone there. If it had been miserable. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah. And, and as you say, you know, once you ve found your tribe and you ve found, you were in your camp, you know, then there was, you know, there s, there s a, em, I think there s an

00:50:25.800 - 00:50:56.320

incredibly supportive, er, and almost, em, sort of self-discovery element to being able to sit and talk to other women. Cos where else could you have done that in the 1980s. Exactly. Where else could you do that now. So, yeah, it was an unusual set of circumstances I think for women to be able to go and talk about whatever. I just feel so bloody lucky to have been born when I was.

00:50:56.800 - 00:51:21.020

To the parents I was and to everything. I just think that I ve had an incredibly rich life, you know. I ve travelled all over the world, you know. I ve done everything. I ve done, it s just brilliant. What a life. It s great. Yeah, no, that s great. It s really good. It s really good and I think it s good for, em, I would, you know, would very much like young

00:51:21.020 - 00:51:45.660

women, you know. To know that s possible. Yeah. Don t be satisfied with what s not really, you know, what you re not really enjoying. Go for what you want. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think there is a, there s definitely a message from Greenham, you know, in terms of, in terms of history, you know, that sort of political, social political history but also

00:51:46.240 - 00:52:09.300

just in very human terms from, you know, from older women to younger women, which just gets lost. And I think, what, why do you think the suffragettes are, cos I know it s the hundred year centenary of some women getting the vote, you know, so the suffragettes who were a protest group and quite violent, em, have been,

00:52:09.720 - 00:52:29.320

you know, very much celebrated but Greenham is never mentioned in that. I think it will be. I think it s too early. I think probably when we ve died, about twenty years time or something, or, I don t know, forty years time, it will be. Why, why do you think they have, they ll have to wait. That s just the way history is.

00:52:30.280 - 00:52:56.620

History, I should say probably. I mean, it s just the way, I think it s too close. I don t know. I just think that s how things happen. Somehow. Maybe it s not until you ve lost something that you recognise it s gone. But I mean, it hasn t gone. I mean, my daughter, she wouldn t put up with any shit. Do you know what I mean? She wouldn t. I know she wouldn t.

00:52:56.620 - 00:53:22.260

And she ll stand up for herself. And she ll, she ll go for what she wants. All that role modelling has been instilled in her and will be instilled in her children. Yeah. All the way through. That s, that s the, you know, that is a great legacy, isn t it, for a mother. Yeah. And is she your only child? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

00:53:26.240 - 00:53:58.080

And I m glad I had a child. I nearly didn t. I m glad I did. Cos I think that whole experience has been very grounding for me as well. I had to work, I had to keep a house over our heads, all that stuff. I think I could have gone off with the fairies a bit more than I did if I hadn t have had her to keep me grounded and sensible. I just spent six months

00:53:58.080 - 00:54:29.940

up in Fintorn community in Scotland and er, that was quite an experience. But, and I feel more down to earth than most of the people out there. So, so is that communal living something that you still do from time to time then? I wasn t really communal living. I have my own house. Oh. It s the living with other people I

00:54:29.940 - 00:54:56.700

find difficult. Em. Cos I m quite a sort of organised em, I like to know where things are. I like to have my pencils sharpened and not blunt or whatever, you know what I mean, all those practical things. Em. And er, other people don t and they drive me up the fucking pole. And break things. The amount of broken in Scotland. Kate, every time she was coming on for

00:54:56.700 - 00:55:23.760

a period, she just dropped things. Oh. There d be nothing left. So how, how were things like periods and like, I mean not that it is a medical thing, but how were, were kind of, you know, illnesses and things like that and periods, just that, that normal kind of day to day life stuff that women have to deal with. How was that managed at Greenham? Very openly. Not hidden,

00:55:24.120 - 00:55:52.040

I would say. Like that picture of Sally. Yeah. Overt. I mean, in a way that was being a bit revolutionary we felt I think. There was a bit of that about it but, I mean I was lucky. I haven t had very straight forward, haven t had great period pains or anything awful, you know. Other people had, you know, days in bed. Oh. You know. In agony. So,

00:55:52.960 - 00:56:29.740

I was comparatively lucky like that. But er I think, I think probably because I m, I m basically got a strong constitution. I ve always been very healthy and able until recently and er, that brings with it a certain confidence and a certain

00:56:31.420 - 00:57:04.380

set of assumptions. And I think I found weak, moaning, pathetic people difficult. God is looking at me. Oh dear. I think I did. And there, there was a lot of that around as well. Oh, I ve got my period. I can t do anything. I don t have a lot of patience for that. Because that s not my experience. Yeah. Do you think you re a bit more patient with people now,

00:57:04.380 - 00:57:36.780

a bit more tolerant? A bit more. A bit more but not, not enough probably. Probably not enough. I don t know. But it sounds like you were er, you know, as you said with, with Monica, you know, you could still be a rock for people. Yeah. Yeah. And the whole community that I was in broke up when I left actually. You know what I mean. I didn t recognise how much I

00:57:41.540 - 00:58:09.540

was a stabling influence, let s put it like that. I think I must have been. More than I realised. Much more than I realised. Practical, just sort of down to earth sort of person, you know what I mean. Not I, I don t know. I just, I, I had a very comparatively easy upbringing compared with

00:58:09.540 - 00:58:34.920

a lot of people as well. Mm. Really. Yeah, I think those survival, those outdoor, you know, digging the pits and making the beds. That was easy. That was no problem for me at all. All that stuff. And I think that s, that s, that s, you know, nine, eighty or ninety percent of everybody s life, isn t it, that sort of er, you know, getting food and all that sort of thing.

00:58:35.060 - 00:58:59.780

So those things are important, aren t they. Yeah. And I killed the chickens and skinned the rabbits and you know, other people wouldn t even touch them, you know what I mean. I would just do that stuff. My mother was a nerd, my dad, my father was a doctor so I mean, he didn t phase me, you know what I mean, but some people. I thought because it wasn t, weren t a lot of the camps

00:59:01.080 - 00:59:30.300

vegetarian or vegan. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that as well. So obviously yours, yours wasn t. What were we? We tried various things at different times. But the truth of the matter was I would take Hannah out for bacon sandwiches every so often because I got fed up with it. Yeah. So I was, em, not a very er, correct vegan or vegetarian really. I was a bit of a rebel. I

00:59:30.300 - 00:59:50.820

was always a bit of a rebel. Whatever the rules were, I was going to rebel against them wherever I lived living. And if people were too fucking, you know, high and mighty about how perfect their diet was, it just pissed me off. Yeah. Maybe you want to go and have a bacon sandwich. Yeah. So where did the rabbits and the chickens come from? Well, the rabbits were always getting caught by

00:59:50.820 - 01:00:10.700

the cats and the chickens, we had chickens and you had to kill the cockerels. I mean, that, you know, that is what happens when you have chickens that lay eggs that have, you know, you have, end up with too many cockerels. So you have to, you know, somebody s got to bloody do it. Muggins is the one who always seemed to end up having to do it.

01:00:10.700 - 01:00:44.380

Mm. I, I dare say everybody managed to eat it. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Once it ve been plucked and dealt with, they could eat it. Oh God. So is there, is there any sort of, with your artistic head on, is there any kind of, em, particular, em, piece of like iconic er, sort of, em, picture that you have in your head that, that represents Greenham.

01:00:44.820 - 01:01:07.840

Because I think the most. Yeah, Monica s God Yes Giving Birth. So is that. Picture. That was, that was a picture that she did. It, it s in that big book of her, that very big book. It s a book of all her paintings. And that was her claiming the God Yes really. And what s Monica s. Monica Shoe, S J O O. It s a Scandinavian name.

01:01:08.960 - 01:01:32.860

And what s the painting called, er, God Yes. God Yes Giving, er, God Yes Giving Birth to the World. Something like that. And was that something she did after Greenham or at Greenham. Around that time. I don t know when exactly she did that. Right. And what is it about that that makes, that, that is,

01:01:33.960 - 01:02:08.400

represents Greenham to you? It s very powerful woman figure. And it, I think it sort of says, it s about the importance of motherhood really, I suppose, giving birth and celebrating that really. Yeah. Power of women to do that. To make life. And if there was, em, if there were three things that, that you felt were the,

01:02:09.920 - 01:02:41.080

were the memories and the legacy that you would carry forward for future generations for Greenham, what would, what would they be, do you think? I don t know. It s something about the power of women. The, em, the power of women coming together and determination to make this thing stop. We were determined to make it stop. Really

01:02:41.080 - 01:03:05.500

determined. It was, it was not going to go on on our watch, you know. Definitely, that s what I felt like. And was it, was that political activism your motivation for going? Yeah. Or was it, right. Oh yeah, definitely. It was primarily the cruise missiles and not the, not the fun and the women only and the belonging. It was both. Right. If I m honest, it was both. I didn t know

01:03:05.500 - 01:03:34.740

that it would be fun so I got down there. Right. Yeah. It was. And very, a lot of very intense close relationships were formed which I ve still got. I mean, I still know women who I met there now, you know, which is wonderful. Having known people that long, it s great. Lovely. I love it. I think that s one of the best things about em, getting older is having known

01:03:35.280 - 01:04:01.880

some people. My friend Gabrielle who I met at nursery school is coming to visit next week. I love that. She knows me in and out. Bad, good, whatever. She knows me, you know. I love it. I think it s a wonderful thing. And so, the friends that you still have from Greenham, are you, have you both, have you all kind of moved through that pattern that you described before in terms

01:04:01.880 - 01:04:32.620

of, you know, the arc of your life from young to em, to older. Have you moved through that arc in a, in similar ways do you think? So have you still got things in common, is it not, it s not just stuff from, from back then? Some people have. Some of those people are still man haters. Some of those people, women I should say, are

01:04:34.040 - 01:05:07.220

stuck on the whole what you ought to eat or not eat thing, and a bit moralistic for my taste, I have to say. As you ve already gathered, I m not really very consistent on, ha ha, er, what s the word, deep thinking about a lot of things. Not as deep thinking as I ought to be but I m not. It s just not my nature, so I m not. And er some people are,

01:05:08.520 - 01:05:37.740

I do find it difficult. Some people are still a bit strident. I was, but I m not anymore. I m not out to change the world or convince everyone I meet that women are the best thing in the world. It s not my focus anymore. But some people are, I know, are still a bit like that, or very lefty, very em, anti-establishment. And they sort of rant. She s off on it again,

01:05:37.840 - 01:06:11.100

you know what I mean. I think I ve er, mellowed, ha ha, let s put it like that. Much, I m much less em, extreme than I used to be. I feel like that was part of that youthful exuberance. And I m a bit boring and I ll fart these days but that suits me fine. Yeah, pass the baton to somebody else to do that. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And my daughter s just gone

01:06:11.100 - 01:06:38.220

vegan as well. She s sending me YouTube things all about, you know, how you shouldn t do this, you shouldn t do that and it all. Yeah, well it s supposed to, you know, it s part of our environmental responsibility and all that sort of thing, isn t it, so. I mean, it s logically, it makes sense. Of course it does. But I m sorry. Yeah. I, I m not keen on cereals and nuts as a

01:06:38.220 - 01:07:03.400

just don t do it for me. No. No, me neither but em, you know, I m sure at some point we ll be forced to do something or the other, won t we. Yeah. And cars. Yeah. Things like riding motorbikes and cars. I love riding and driving and it s going to be weird when we can t do that anymore. Get in a car and drive fast. It s good fun. Yeah, well it would have made my life a lot

01:07:03.400 - 01:07:24.080

more difficult coming up here for instance without a car. Yeah. Would it take, I don t, I don t know. Trains and buses and. Yeah, would have been a nightmare. But maybe if we all had to give up our cars, they would sort it out. It s also part of the, it s chicken and egg, isn t it. It is. That s exactly what it is. Yeah, definitely. So there are arguments for.

01:07:27.720 - 01:07:52.860

But I, I, it s lazy I know but I sort of really think, I ve done my bit. I m not trying to change the world anymore. I m just trying to get by in it, you know what I mean. Yeah, I do. Very much. Yeah. No, yeah, I do. I really do. Em, so is there anything else about Greenham that you like to say. Anything that you haven t said that you want to talk about.

01:07:54.940 - 01:08:20.960

It was very empowering. Very empowering. It was great. I really thrived on that. I think it was a bit, well I know it was a bit troubling for my parents. They were afraid I was going to get put into prison and God knows what was going to happen to me. And at one point my father even came up to this all women, men, not, not allowed anywhere

01:08:20.960 - 01:08:52.600

near women s community and insisted on coming to see his granddaughter which was very, very brave of him. And they all really liked him. It was great. So, yeah, it wasn t the end of the world and I did grow up and I did learn from it and change and continue to change. And I think life is all about being able to do that. Being flexible enough to be able to adjust to what is, you know,

01:08:53.420 - 01:08:59.980

what you can and can t do and finding a way through.