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Just tell me a bit about your background, past and current. So I was born in West London and I grew up in London, I'm from a mixed background and I am working as a writer and an actor and an activist. Okay and how do you know about Greenham?

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So I found out about the Greenham project because I was connected to a few similar people to Kate and Rebecca on Twitter and I saw that there was a call out for anybody who was involved in Greenham to come forward and to share their stories and it made me remember that the nursery that I'd been to had been set up by

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some women that were involved at Greenham. Oh right, when was that? So the nursery was in the 80s, I think I certainly was there possibly from 81 until 84 but it could be 82 and it was already established then, I don't know how long for,

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maybe just one or two years. And roughly how old were you? So I think when I started there I could have been as young as one or two. When do you think first memories kick in?

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Well this is it, I mean I remember it very clearly, I remember it very clearly which is why I think, I mean my mum ended up having a job there which meant that my connection to the nursery didn't last. So I guess I'm not exactly clear whether the memories that I have are definitely, well no I know that some of them were definitely from the time that I was there

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and after that when I went to visit or you know hung out with my mum, I mean because of the ethos of the place it was quite relaxed in terms of the ages of the people that were there and certainly because I was the daughter of someone who was working there I was more involved than maybe others would be.

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And what was the ethos of the nursery? Well obviously at the time I didn't know that it was any different from anywhere else but what I remember is a group of very strong warm women, all women, from a variety of backgrounds, most of them were white but we did have some Canadians,

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we had some South Africans and we had a few workers who were black or Asian or mixed. And my understanding is that the way the hierarchy was structured was that there wasn't one, that they were all equal and they made decisions collectively, they had meetings every week to collectively make the decisions about the way the nursery was being run,

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they were, you know, each person I think was allocated different responsibilities so for example if someone had experience with accounting or something like that or even general management then they would take the lead but the decisions were made collectively, so that was the first thing. The second thing I remember is that they wanted us to address them as workers,

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so if we had a problem or if we needed help we'd raise our hands and call for a worker, so we wouldn't say Miss Brown or teacher or whatever, we'd say worker, worker and someone would come. And just a general worker, not worker number one? No, no, no, none of that, no, no, no, just an acknowledgement that that's what they were there to do and that they were all

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equal, you know, with that title, I think. So that was, what would you say the key part of the ethos of the nursery was? You talked about equality, was that one? Yes, I do think equality was a part of it, I do also feel and I know that this word is a complex word but intersectionality seems to be quite a big one as well and I mean that in terms of the books that we had, you know,

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the children's picture books for example with very simple stories in them were quite advanced in their, I mean they chose the books very carefully I think because for example my favourite book I remember, the lead character in that was a little black girl in a wheelchair and she got to go on lots of adventures and she was the hero of the stories and that was just a normal thing for

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me, obviously I didn't know any different, I didn't know that in general that's not what children's books look like. So that was my first experience of, you know, books for example and who was allowed to go on adventures and who was allowed to be the protagonist in their own adventures and what they were capable of, what they were allowed to do and who was allowed to

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be at the centre of the story. And can you think of a specific story? I feel like that book was called Sweet Franny Adams and I remember her being in a kind of an urban setting, so a city of some kind and I think she had a beret on, yeah I mean I might have made some of this up but I don't remember what the story was, I remember it being really simple like maybe one sentence per

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page but she got to go on an adventure that's all I remember and it might have been a very simple kind of domestic adventure with a brother and a sister or a mum and a dad. Were there characters there as well? Oh there were, yeah, but they weren't the centre of the story certainly in that book anyway and the other thing that I remember was that there was

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quite, it felt like quite a kind of a progressive approach to gender identity. I mean I wouldn't go so far as to say sexuality, you know, because we were so young but certainly I know that many, many of the workers were openly gay, queer, bisexual, we met their girlfriends, you know, their partners, it was a very, it was a community so a lot of the,

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a lot of what was happening went beyond just the nursery hours, you know, I remember lots of parties and obviously because my mum was involved with them, you know, they were part of our, you know, social life as well but I do remember, I remember boys walking around in dresses from the fancy dress box, you know, little black boys in dresses and I remember a lot of that and I remember

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kind of us being encouraged to just explore our identity without, well with as little conditioning in terms of gender normative messages as possible and I do not remember the word girls and boys ever being used, I might be wrong but I do feel that very possibly they would have made a decision not to even make distinctions of that sort and I remember that there was one

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room with a line of toilets, little kind of toilets for kids and that was it, it was for everybody to use, there were no, there weren't even any cubicles, you just walked in and used a toilet and came out again so that's what I remember being the ethos kind of thing and I also remember the songs we sang and the nursery rhymes we sang, the words, the lyrics were tweaked or changed

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in order to have more of a balance so I'm, I feel like I remember and again this is, you know, me kind of reaching back, something like Baba black sheep, have you any wool? Yes sir, yes sir or yes woman, yes woman, three bags full, one for the mistress, one for the dame and one for the little girl who lives down the lane. Oh you've remembered it. So again I guess it was about who was allowed

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to be the person in the top position of power, you know, etc but of course we didn't know any different. Talking about power, I mean you were all very young, it was a nursery school but were the children ever allowed to be part of that collective decision making, did they ask you what you thought? I think so, what I do remember is that there was a structure to the day that

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allowed for a lot of free play, a lot of creativity, a lot of getting messy, we had a little garden where we could go out and get messy and you know lots of paint and artwork and lots of cooking and shopping for both the boys and the girls but what I remember is that every day ended with us in one room sitting together singing songs, talking about things, telling stories

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and I don't specifically remember us being asked for our opinion but what I do feel is that we were encouraged to feel like a community that was equal. I certainly felt listened to, included, encouraged in every way, I felt very very free and when I looked around I just saw kids that were just free to absolutely be themselves

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with as little of that kind of external conditioning as possible. Would you say it was a very safe place for you to develop and grow? Yeah I felt extremely safe but it was more than that, it was you know I know that maybe now there's so much safeguarding in place for very good reasons, the boundaries were there in terms of keeping us very very safe

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but there was an immense amount of freedom. So safety that enables you to express your Exactly that yeah and that the women, they were just such strong personalities like you know I remember there was one woman called Mary Susan who was a clown from Canada and she was just larger than life, she had this laugh, she'd sit on the stairs and just

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laugh for a good five minutes and it was so infectious and oh just so many, I could go on and on and on but each one was very very different and now I know kind of very again very free or certainly living an alternative lifestyle to I guess some of the norms and I know that there was perhaps also a connection with the values and the ethos

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of the GLC at the time which I understand was being run by well initially Ken Livingston and then is it John Macdonald as well? I don't think he ran the GLC, I don't think so, I'm not sure but I know that it was Labour representatives. Ken Livingston was in there a long time. Yeah maybe it was him then, maybe it was him. And he was there during Margaret Thatcher's time because

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he used to hang a banner from the other side of the river. Right right and I know that they were supported quite strongly by the GLC to run the nursery in that way with those values and we're given a lot of support and freedom to do that. It's my understanding. Was there anything you didn't like about it? That's a good question.

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I guess at the time I didn't feel this but I guess now you know it was an inner city nursery so the space was limited and they did so much to try and give us the freedom of being outside, getting mucky. I know that you know if we ran out of you know resources or there needed to be a shop they'd grab five of us and take us shopping and then we'd come back and

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help with the cooking in a safe way. I wonder what it would have been like if we just had more space you know because I remember feeling immensely free and obviously you know as a kid you just accept whatever space you're given you know and it's great and you make the most of it. But it was essentially on a road that was full of houses you know and so it was

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converted from a house I think. Space is such a free thing, it's difficult unless it's purpose built in the schools. It certainly wasn't purpose built. I mean it was adapted for a nursery I remember that very clearly but I just wonder what else would have been possible if we just had even more space. What do you remember about or did any of the women, the worker women who

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did they ever talk about Greenham, tell you stories? I don't remember that. I don't remember Greenham ever being mentioned. I think that some of them definitely had been part of setting up the nursery. My understanding is maybe that initially the idea was to share child care while the women were tooing and froing from Greenham. So it was again it was that sense of

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communal child care that I think was the initial ethos and then I think it went beyond that to just wanting to offer that same level of nurturing and care and education to the local kids. Because certainly when I was there it was a real mix of kids you know working class, middle class, black, Asian, mixed race, white. So even though the workers I would still say were predominantly

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white and middle class. Not all of them but most of them. The children weren't. The children were inner city kids. What did the locals think of the nursery? I mean you wouldn't have been aware at the time but in retrospect. Well the interesting thing was that that pocket of London seemed to have some quite radical characters around. So I know that one woman, Barbara,

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so this nursery was in Hammersmith in West London and there was a woman called Barbara who lived four doors down that was part of the nursery. I'm pretty sure she may have been part of setting it up. There was another woman called Michelle who was a mechanic for a while who lived across the road. And then a lot of us had grown up kind of Notting Hill way, Westbourne Grove,

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Labyrinth Grove and so I remember that being an area full of artists, full of musicians. I mean my father's a musician and our house was full of musicians and artists and these feminists you know. So it was this incredible time in London at the time and of course I didn't know any different but when I was born in a squat in Notting Hill but the squat was full of on the one hand artists

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and on the other hand immigrants and it was a lovely experience you know from what I remember. And then we got a council house in West London and so my memory of the area was one that was full of really interesting characters, a real sense of community. I remember going to the local park and always bumping into the same people. There was one incident where my grandma

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had come over from Cyprus to visit and she didn't speak any English and one of these artist guys who was this six foot tall guy saw me in the park and asked me where my mum and dad was and I said they're not here and he didn't ask me who else I was with so I stopped there and he thought I was on my own so he picked me up and put me on his shoulders and started bounding off with me

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and my grandma started screaming and chasing him down the road but the point was that there were so many people I could turn to because it was the same characters you know around everyone knew each other. So I don't remember anything other than a real sense that it fitted in quite well and because of the mix of kids there I feel like a lot of local people

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really wanted their children to have that experience. I can imagine they made it, well I was going to say affordable but I'm pretty sure it was all free basically. Yeah in fact it was, the whole thing was free. Subsidised by the gym. Yes yeah yeah I assume so and it was a lovely local place and we did you know we did go out shopping I remember trips to the local park

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certainly that I mean I remember also going to the local theatre like the Riverside Studios that used to have a lot of shows for kids then. I'm not sure if it was trips with a nursery or not or whether it was just with my family. Talking about your family, what did mum tell you about Greenham and what was her involvement in Greenham? So my mum, I didn't speak with her about

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Greenham in particular. So my mum and her best friend got jobs at this nursery and I actually spoke to her best friend more, Genevieve, about her memories of it. I think she may have visited Greenham once but if I'm honest the the connection seemed to be more in London and what you could do for the kids in London essentially. What I do remember is that we went on a lot of marches

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here in London. Some were you know the campaign for nuclear disarmament. I remember one in particular where I was I think four years old and I was on my dad's shoulders and it was for a march to free Nelson Mandela and someone handed me a loudspeaker at the age of four and I didn't know what to do with it and my dad was whispering to me say what do we want so I shouted what do we want

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and you know hundreds of people went Mandela free and he said say when do you want it so I said that they went now and the feeling of power. Is this when you wanted to be on the stage? Oh well yeah that basically yeah yeah that's it that was there was no looking back after that but that certainly was a big part of my upbringing was at protests at rallies for a variety of

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causes. Greenham I have to say I don't remember the words being mentioned but I do remember the posters, the badges, the women being kind of generally politically active and this sense of being part of what I understand now a feminist movement in the 80s that certainly I think was dominated in this country by the Greenham cause

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and extended out to my experience of being a child in London at the time. Your mother did actually go to Greenham sometimes or? My mother didn't but I think her friends did. Yeah interesting. What do you think Greenham's legacy is to me? Is it quite a difficult question?

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Yeah well I think I don't think it can be underestimated and I think it's it's hard because the things that they fought for and the things that they had to put up with are things that we take for granted now so I don't know any different. However in my personal activism what I'm seeing is that it's facilitated not only the tactics

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and the methods that I think we see in a lot of the current movements and I would say examples of this are the fact that you know the women of Greenham knew that they were going to have to find ways other than directly petitioning the law or the people in power that they had to come up with clever methods to sometimes circumnavigate the law and other times directly

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break the law in order to raise awareness and push forward their cause and I see for example you know and this is a different kind of era because I think a lot of the groundwork is sometimes steeped in the use of social media now and I don't think it necessarily takes the place of physical action. It's interesting that you say that. Yeah but certainly when I look at say

00:23:13.360 - 00:23:35.720

the incredible work that's been done by the women in Ireland for Repeal the 8th I remember watching that kind of unfolding you know live in real time and seeing how there were women that wanted to fly over from America to vote and other women online going I'm going to put in 50 quid to pay for your flight and you can stay with my sister who lives in blah blah blah blah

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and the the level of organization was incredible like I just cried every time I watched it and certainly with the with the standard 15 and a lot of what's going on with climate change etc for sure but I would also argue and certainly this is the area that I'm active in is the Me Too movement and all the kind of work that's being done around raising awareness

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around sexual violence towards women and men and certainly non-binary people. Yes we're talking about the impact of social media really weren't we? On campaigning yeah. Do you think it's a double-edged sword sometimes because it's very easy to click your support or forward a tweet and do nothing actually that involves a bit of activism?

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I guess my feeling is that lifestyles are very different now people are exhausted they have very little time and you know because of years of austerity for example I think it makes it very very hard to to motivate yourself. I also feel that the sense of community has been eroded and so I think we have been encouraged to feel very isolated and also

00:25:06.180 - 00:25:40.660

to focus on you know our individual kind of interests however I also feel incredibly positive about the new generation the younger generation of women and activists in general who I think have been actually extremely proactive surprisingly so and are active in that they they want to do stuff and I see them volunteering at the refugee camps in Calais I see them going

00:25:40.660 - 00:26:12.000

out and collecting supplies for them and I see huge turnouts at marches you know whether it's Brexit or the women's march etc so I feel that those who are of the kind of personality that would be more proactive are still finding ways to do that and and I feel like I'm probably in a little bit of a bubble in that the people that I connect with and the people that I follow etc

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are those kind of people and I see that they've used social media in a very clever way that just facilitates them being more effective in their campaigning so I don't know if that's the case really I guess I question how effective some of these petitions are but then what I've noticed is for example recently there were images that a watch company were using that were

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extremely disturbing of you know a man's hand wearing a watch around a woman's throat for example and that was their advertising and so people started sharing this on social media and people started writing to the company and they've now withdrawn that entire campaign now let's not even get into how it got okayed in the first place but the point is that online

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pressure changed that and so you know I don't would there be a Greenham coming today I don't know you know what I do see is people working extremely hard and succeeding in their effectiveness and certainly I've been part of consulting on campaigns to advise people about the can I start that again what am I doing well I've certainly been involved in the

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consulting on the report that was done by equity which is the union for actors on sexual harassment in the industry I've gone to the house of commons and been part of a debate on sexual violence for women and how the criminal justice system is failing them and what we've seen with the me too movement is that women realize that the justice system is

00:28:13.120 - 00:28:38.040

not fit for purpose and they're finding a different way to raise awareness and normalize conversations around this and it is leading to changes you know and people being convicted and we can see that now and it's not happening fast enough and there's still many many changes that need to be made but it's happening you know and that's because of campaigns both online and in person

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would you say that was rooted in your early years experience I would say yes oh that's made me a bit emotional I keep making people cry damn it I wasn't gonna cry I really didn't and I tell you why I guess because um when it's something as dark as sexual violence you don't naturally know how to turn that into

00:29:11.600 - 00:29:42.800

something positive unless you've been given the resources before and if and the fact that it was a kind of an automatic or a kind of an instinctive thing to look for ways to raise awareness and to turn this into something positive and to make change and not just feel helpless or powerless but to have a legacy of women and examples of women from my earliest years that were able to

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affect change against what probably must have seemed like an impossible power structure must be deeply ingrained in me and so I didn't really think about it too much it wasn't a cerebral thing it was an instinctive thing okay what can I do what change can I affect even if it's very local um but that um this is happening to my generation this is um the the the new fight

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that we need to to take on um and how do we do that and who has come before and what have they taught us what tools have they given us and what freedoms and possibilities and opportunities have they given us that they didn't have that they've passed on that we probably take for granted um that we can now use to affect change and what can we um what can we also create

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and offer the next generation it's amazing what seeps into little tiny children isn't it absolutely so so important yeah it really is um one question I wanted to ask you um do you think younger people and sort of millennials I suppose especially are aware of Greenham um I mean that's quite a broad um you know generation of people you know so the answer is yes and no I do feel

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that there is a new feminist movement happening right now there's a new wave happening um and I think I love millennials I think they're wicked I think they get a lot of stick I think they're misunderstood and I see a lot of them being extremely proactive and effective with obstacles that we never had um so I feel like the women the young women who are involved in this in this new

00:31:47.820 - 00:32:17.980

movement and these new movements in general you know tackling all sorts of issues that their generation are facing certainly climate change as well um uh navigating you know healthy relationships and boundaries and consent and all of that kind of thing supporting refugees um etc etc um I think they are to a greater and a lesser extent and and you know this is what I mean

00:32:17.980 - 00:32:46.500

it's not necessarily that in my experience um Greenham was talked about loads but it was there in the culture in a very strong way um so I think that they will have been some of them will have been directly aware of what happened at Greenham and some of them will be benefiting from the legacy in ways that they probably don't realise. The suffragettes um are included in our history

00:32:46.500 - 00:33:21.680

nowadays um Greenham not so much why do you think that has been? Well uh I think because um the people in power at the time are still in power and I don't think um they want people to know how powerful they can be uh because they might affect the current power structures um I think it's as simple as that I think a lot of the kind of methods and tactics um are probably quite

00:33:21.680 - 00:33:46.820

similar um but I feel like there's a stigma sometimes around the women of Greenham Common that they were weird radicals they were a kind of a glitch in our history rather than the heroes the heroines that they really are who have directly influenced the movements that are happening now um and I would go so far as to you know argue that they've directly influenced all

00:33:46.820 - 00:34:15.320

sorts of things you know um how many women are in positions of power you know even military tactics you know training and what have you um but they probably won't get the credit that they deserve for now um I think this project is going to change that um but I also feel that um it's taken a long time for um it's the the legacy of the suffragettes to be allowed into

00:34:15.320 - 00:34:42.860

our history and it's because there's so much distance that it's safe for the powers that be to let it seep in but also that you know women themselves have fought very hard to uncover and to retain that that legacy in that history of women's history um so I think with Greenham Common what I imagine is that they're too dangerous to be kind of spoken about too often

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and in a mainstream way yet because they're still alive they're still influencing things and they've just been extremely effective um and uh I think there's um certainly a pattern in a history of silencing women's uh effectiveness in history um and women's power um and I think that's what's happening but will change the art is changing right now yeah definitely

00:35:13.900 - 00:35:39.140

okay um I think that's all my questions is there anything else you'd like to talk about no I think that's much more than I thought I would talk about maybe you can put it into your comedy oh yeah yeah one way of raising awareness there's all different forms it goes that's why I was asking you about if your mum had talked to you about

00:35:39.780 - 00:36:04.800

all those old oral traditions and that sort of thing it sort of all seeps out into it does yeah well as you say it does take time it does I mean yes certainly I guess it's a difficult one because we were living it so it doesn't feel like you know sitting down and going what I do remember is stories about my grandma's experience in Cyprus you know her and my

00:36:04.800 - 00:36:24.560

grandfather were the first to set up a workers union there you know they were all working in in a button factory I think and there was absolutely no limit on the hours or days they could work and they were effective in changing that and I think there was also a coca-cola company nearby that was doing a similar thing so you know there's a cultural line coming down

00:36:24.560 - 00:36:52.080

I think so yeah absolutely yeah and there's a real pride certainly what's interesting is that my grandparents would identify themselves as communists and that's not a dirty word over there whereas over here we'd say left-wing probably you know or socialist maybe a stretch but in the greek language that's just what they called themselves you know and there was

00:36:52.080 - 00:37:20.620

a real pride in it so because that was one generation removed from my experience those are the oral stories that passed down from to me but the rest of it we were living it so it's only now decades a few decades later I'm like oh this is valuable this perspective isn't it yeah yeah but also weirdly I feel like it was just a given that the women around us or the people

00:37:20.620 - 00:37:44.020

around us were involved in it so why would you talk about it it's just life yeah do you know what I mean yeah exactly and we were surrounded by activists and we were involved in you know certainly the protests in London what have you and we were living it so you know in terms of just the values of life kind of thing do you think projects like this are good in making people

00:37:44.020 - 00:38:08.120

who didn't have that privilege really of your background become aware I mean it's not just good it's essential it's essential why isn't it studied why isn't it in our history books why isn't it part of the curriculum it's huge what happened you know and I think there's a there's a very concrete answer to why it's not you know that's a decision that's been made and once again

00:38:08.120 - 00:38:34.340

it falls to people outside of the system to try and find an alternative way to document it in order for it to then become mainstream and that now you know I think what's really important is that there is a real push for women-centered stories women-driven stories stories created by women about women and all sorts of kind of themes and issues that we're

00:38:34.340 - 00:39:05.240

still grappling with and struggling with today you know do you think there's a generational difference between how people think of green and women um I don't know and that's because well the answer is yes and no because I imagine at the time that people were split in that you know again I was in this very liberal urban bubble so it all just felt brilliant and fantastic

00:39:05.240 - 00:39:31.540

but I'm sure those who voted for Thatcher etc you know that part of England which always surprises me you know as far as I was concerned Brexit was never going to happen etc etc you know but the point is that there is an England out there that I just cannot relate to that thinks in a very different way and I'm sure their view on Greenham is very different um so I don't know I would say

00:39:31.540 - 00:39:59.200

I don't feel like it's really a generational thing um I think certainly the generation my generation the millennial generation of women who are involved in activism probably have uh I would like to think of a gratitude and a reverence for what has come before us and Greenham is a huge part of that but I would say it certainly is much more to do with um your background your political

00:39:59.200 - 00:40:28.160

beliefs um whether the way you've been raised um what you've been told is normal and isn't normal but what I would say is that that changes all the time so what seemed radical a few generations ago just isn't now um and that is thanks to you know the the the movements like the the Greenham the women of Greenham Common um so you know that's changing as well you know I remember at the time

00:40:28.820 - 00:40:47.980

that Nelson Mandela was being called a terrorist you know that's not how we see him now you know that's not how history remembers him and I feel that's what's happening with the women of Greenham Common is that you know they were seen probably initially in one way um and now are seen very differently.