00:00:00.000 - 00:00:23.500

So, Lisa, how did you come to be part of the peace movement? I was, I guess, in Plymouth in 1982, when there was the Falklands War, 82, 1982, when the Falklands War, so I was in Plymouth, and obviously Plymouth is a naval town, and I was a peace activist, so that was kind of interesting.

00:00:23.500 - 00:00:50.880

And prior to that, I was unlucky enough to see the pictures of the Vietnam War, so I was aware of that when I was a little kid, and so the peace activism or whatever was there as a strand, so when I started working in the library services as an assistant, Saturday assistant, they had a whole load of periodicals, including Peace News, which I read avidly

00:00:50.880 - 00:00:56.960

for the three years that I was there, so. And how old were you at that point? I started when I was 15. Okay.

00:00:57.500 - 00:01:01.220

And was that in Portsmouth? No, no, no, that was in London. London. Yeah.

00:01:01.320 - 00:01:21.360

So I read Peace News and I thought that was marvellous, and I, my politics kind of were fairly getting honed by that time, so when, when the Falklands War was up, it was kind of a bit challenging being in Plymouth and doing peace vigils. So, yeah, you got used to being shafted out quite a lot.

00:01:21.600 - 00:01:32.620

Yes, it was. And how did you hear about Greenham? I heard about Greenham, I think, because, I mean, I was trying to remember this, and I was thinking, how did I, how did I hear about it?

00:01:33.100 - 00:01:51.800

So I was in Plymouth, I was doing community theatre with a bunch of women, and it was all very political, and there was also, because it was on an honours course, so half the year we were in Rotherhithe and half the year we were in Plymouth. Some of the women that were in Rotherhithe started going to Greenham and making theatre

00:01:51.800 - 00:02:06.240

pieces. So I heard about that, and also I heard about it because of the Falklands War and the peace groups that were then starting to affiliate all the way through that there was this thing going on.

00:02:06.960 - 00:02:16.120

So, you know, kind of go, oh wow, you know, this is all kicking off, this is marvellous, marvellous, we're going to have the revolution. Patriarchy is going to die. Yes!

00:02:17.940 - 00:02:26.220

Yeah, well that was a while ago. Still waiting, still waiting, so yeah. And when you went, was it what you expected? I don't remember.

00:02:26.440 - 00:02:38.060

Okay. Which is, so I have a really poor memory, and everything's merged together. So I really don't know when I first went. I was really trying to think, when did I first go?

00:02:38.160 - 00:02:50.000

Did I go when Tanya had her piece? Did I go when Babs had her piece, or was it before that? Or was it the first time the Surround the Base? Was that when I went, with five coaches of us?

00:02:50.360 - 00:03:02.400

Or did I go before that? I really don't remember. So I don't remember when I first went, but I know that once I started going, we carried on going.

00:03:03.080 - 00:03:22.210

And I was living in Devon, so there was quite a number of us that were going up and being supported, staying overnight, that kind of stuff. And what were the theatre pieces that your friends were making? So Babs Schmidt was making a piece called City of Joy, which was a reworking of Lizzy

00:03:22.210 - 00:03:47.410

Strata, but based at Greenham, and so she made that piece as part of her final year project. Tanya Myers did quite a few theatre pieces there that were site-specific pieces. So there was an early women's show, I remember that one, and there was a dragon festival,

00:03:47.850 - 00:04:07.890

dragon piece. They all seemed to be a combination of procession, dressing up, ritual, coming together, celebration. So it was more that kind of thing, rather than a story with a beginning, middle and end.

00:04:10.410 - 00:04:16.690

Yeah, that's what I remember. And how did you travel there? Who did you go with? Do you remember?

00:04:18.030 - 00:04:39.150

God. So there was a group of women in Totnes, which was the next town up, who were fairly motivated. There was an amazing woman called Ursula Blar, no idea what her name was, who was, I think

00:04:39.150 - 00:05:00.690

she was really old. I mean, I know I'm old now, but she was old. She was probably in her middle 70s, and she had a daughter called Di, who was I guess 40-ish, and they had a little two CV, which is these little tiny French cars, and we'd

00:05:00.690 - 00:05:25.690

go up together and hang out and stuff like that. They were the kind of, they'd go ad hoc, and then we'd organise things for events or that kind of stuff back home. And then when I lived with Tanya, we used to go up quite a lot, hitching, because,

00:05:25.930 - 00:05:38.830

you know, no money. Yeah, it was kind of fun. And how often did you stay, how long did you stay there when you went up? I never stayed more than two nights.

00:05:39.410 - 00:05:52.430

I don't think I ever managed more than two nights. Partly because I had my life to live, and that was important, and partly it was bloody hard. Yeah.

00:05:52.970 - 00:06:09.130

You know, it was bloody hard. I mean, particularly, I mean, it wasn't so bad in the summer, obviously, because the weather's easier, but it was quite grim in the winter. Yeah, I can imagine.

00:06:10.310 - 00:06:28.510

But, you know, it was fun as well, you know. I think, looking at pictures of it especially, I was really struck by the wool that people were wearing, and how damp that would get in the winter, and the mud, and how damp people would stay in the winter.

00:06:28.650 - 00:06:47.890

Yeah, I mean, you just had loads and loads and loads of layers, and, you know, mostly there was a camp vehicle at the gates, so you know, you know some about, I mean, obviously you've done some more interviews, so you know that there were camp vehicles at different gates that you could go and take a bit of respite in, and obviously if you'd gone in

00:06:47.890 - 00:07:00.090

a car, you could get in the car and have a bit of drying out time, or even sleep in the car sometimes. And, you know, about benders, and... Yeah.

00:07:00.230 - 00:07:27.030

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So there were the nice benders that were, early on there was quite a lot of good infrastructure, and then as the time progressed, and the challenge of the bailiffs, and the trashing of everybody's stuff, we had washing line with a piece of polythene over it, which was, it was great,

00:07:27.330 - 00:07:46.270

because it was shelter, but it was bloody cold! So it was that thing of, you know, just trying to keep rotating your arse to the fire, to get warm enough, and have as many hot water bottles as you could carry, to keep warm, yeah.

00:07:47.790 - 00:08:01.270

And what camps did you stay at, which gate? Mostly, I stayed quite a bit of orange, and most, orange and green. I did main gate once, before it became yellow. You probably know about the whole...

00:08:01.270 - 00:08:16.330

Rainbow gates. Yeah, the change of the rainbow gates, and the difference in politics. Yes, yes. So, yeah, that was, a lot of, I mean, there was so much going on, because of the politics

00:08:16.330 - 00:08:33.990

of the time, so there was, you know, women coming from very diverse, and conflictual politics, so it wasn't always happy camping, at all. And why did you choose those particular gates, was it kind of... Mates.

00:08:34.310 - 00:08:41.870

Oh, mates. Mates. And was the politics quite obvious when you got to different gates as well? Yeah.

00:08:42.450 - 00:08:57.730

Yeah, yeah. So, I had a blue gate that was vegan, and they were mostly really young and punky. I mean, I was pretty young, but I wasn't punky. I left that behind.

00:08:57.730 - 00:09:25.750

So, yeah, that was always kind of like, quite a full-on noisy kind of gate. Green gate was lovely, because it was so much space around it, and places that you could get a respite from the battling, because the ones that are right on the road are quite challenging.

00:09:25.750 - 00:09:43.390

So, orange was semi-challenging in that it was on the road, so you got a certain amount of traffic, but there was a sort of little side of it that you could go down and get in a vehicle and stay out of trouble for a bit. And what were the politics of those particular gates?

00:09:44.030 - 00:09:59.990

I don't remember. I mean, the politics... seen as the more laid-back, healing, resting gate. That's what I remember.

00:10:00.250 - 00:10:24.410

And it just depended on what was coming in and out as to weather. So, at Orange sometimes, a couple of times that I was there, it was quite challenging. Quite a lot of traffic trying to get in, and us trying not to let the traffic in, and stuff like that.

00:10:24.650 - 00:10:37.990

Obviously, yellow gate straight main gate was the big one, but that's not saying that we didn't do blockades at other gates. So, yeah, that's what I remember. And what made you decide to stay or leave?

00:10:38.230 - 00:10:51.010

Like you said previously, you kind of had a life to get back to. Yeah, I mean, what made me stay was because sometimes you knew that there was only six women going to be there for the next two days. Yeah.

00:10:52.530 - 00:11:10.290

So, you thought, oh, OK, I can manage an extra day just because that helps it out. So, if it's small numbers, that would make you feel, not obliged, but that there was a good thing if you could stay. But I would always leave because I'd have, you know, work to go to or other things to

00:11:10.290 - 00:11:29.850

go to because I wasn't prepared to go, oh, this is my life now. Did you have friends that did stay for a lot longer? I had, I mean, Tanya went up loads and loads and loads, loads more than me when I was living with her.

00:11:29.850 - 00:11:48.370

And then I lived with another woman who, we both went up quite a lot. She stayed up probably more than me. Yeah, she was, she liked Blue Gate and Violet Gate. OK.

00:11:50.530 - 00:11:59.830

Yeah, I don't know, don't know. And did you, you said previously you kind of went with friends. Did you make friends when you were there as well? Yeah.

00:12:00.210 - 00:12:19.170

Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's that thing of where you, you have these extraordinary connections and conversations with all sorts of people. And because Greenham wasn't just about going to camp and being at Greenham, it was also

00:12:19.170 - 00:12:29.130

about carry Greenham home. Yeah. So, for most of my stuff, I would say, was the carry Greenham home. Or maybe it was split both ways, I don't know.

00:12:29.410 - 00:12:48.510

But so, there was that thing of going, building alliances locally. And when you went to camp, yeah, you'd sit down and you'd have a conversation with whoever was there or whoever would turn up. And so, you got to know loads and loads of people, loads and loads of women.

00:12:48.850 - 00:13:07.810

And, you know, because of going back and forwards and back and forwards, you would see some of the same people over and over again. And, yeah, it's one of those things where, you know, friendships form. Some of them didn't last very long beyond the kind of active time at Greenham.

00:13:08.650 - 00:13:25.730

And some of them are still my mates now, so, yeah. And in terms of carry Greenham home, how did you find doing that in the local area? Mostly, really well received. I was, I was really surprised.

00:13:28.670 - 00:13:50.850

Because I was quite, you know, it's that thing of, you know, there was this, obviously there was the, many other campaigns going on at the same time. You know, because there were obviously mixed camps going on with, you know, Molesworth and Faslane and, you know, lots of other events all happening

00:13:50.850 - 00:14:12.570

at the same time, plus the start of the miners' strike. And so there was quite, there's lots and lots of politics, which in Devon, the politics are very little. Because, you know, in Devon, it's true blue Tory.

00:14:14.490 - 00:14:37.950

Through and through, with pockets of hippies and pockets of liberals. So, and I was going to Village Falls to support a couple of people who were, you know, peace activists or in CND or in, that's another peace group organisation, who also had members.

00:14:38.050 - 00:14:57.330

So you go off with the video and one or two of you and show the video and talk about what it was like there, ask questions, you know, answer questions and try and, you know, get some activation and, you know, do things locally.

00:14:57.570 - 00:15:09.170

So it was that thing of going, okay, so what is the, what is the plan for Devon in the event of? Yeah. Oh, interesting.

00:15:09.170 - 00:15:24.630

So it started to spill out into much more of a diverse thing. So it's that thing like we go, right, okay, there's this secret bunker. Okay, let's go protest at the secret bunker. Let's make the secret bunker not secret.

00:15:25.590 - 00:15:37.650

Let's make it more obvious. So there were things like that. There were, it's hard to separate the strands sometimes because it's sort of like, you know, yes, we're also doing, you know,

00:15:37.650 - 00:15:54.090

reclaim the night marches and we're also doing, you know, graffiti in the courts and various other things that were properly, well, would be deemed criminal damage because that's really what it was. But it was great fun.

00:15:55.410 - 00:16:08.910

So whenever there was any kind of court case going on with Green and Women, we would be outside the courts in Totnes, which is where I was living at the time, and, you know, making a fuss and making noise and stuff.

00:16:09.990 - 00:16:22.890

And we had, in Totnes, we had, so we used to take the, Carrie was great, it's a great movie, you've seen it. Yeah, yeah. You know, and so most people were just kind of like, oh, wow.

00:16:23.130 - 00:16:37.230

And some people were truly horrified that there was this piece of common land that had been given to the Americans. Yeah. And that upset, you know, that was a way to get in the door

00:16:37.230 - 00:16:50.830

of some of the more right-wing people was to say, you know, they're over here, they're taking our women, they're selling us nylons, they're giving us chocolate in exchange, you know, trying to, you know, dig into that prejudice.

00:16:53.430 - 00:16:58.850

But it works. It works. Well, you use whatever tactics seem to make some kind of sense. Yeah.

00:16:58.850 - 00:17:12.670

And, you know, it's that, I mean, obviously the politics is around, you know, where's your morality, where's your ethics, and, you know, how do you live an ethical, moral life given what the government's deciding to do with our land.

00:17:13.930 - 00:17:27.590

So, yeah. And what did it mean to you that Greenham was a women-only space? A lot. Because...

00:17:29.270 - 00:17:49.550

Okay, where to start? So when I was in Plymouth doing my third year, there were a couple of colleagues, students, who were lesbian separatists, and so there was a lot of challenge to...

00:17:49.550 - 00:18:04.330

I was bisexual, so, you know, I was thinking, well, I'm halfway there, you know. And so there was a lot of endless discussions about why women-only, why is women-only important, why is women's safety important,

00:18:04.930 - 00:18:22.090

why, you know, given the state of the world and the state of patriarchy, you know, political lesbianism is the only way forward. So there's a whole love for your enemy, scum manifesto, you know. Lots of writing, lots of books from the States and stuff like that.

00:18:22.090 - 00:18:39.770

There's a lot of pretty heavy-duty soul-searching. So at one point the two women said, you know, we're not going to work with any of you unless you kind of, you know, join us on the picket line.

00:18:40.950 - 00:18:55.490

So I was like, well, okay, right, you know, if this is a call to arms, then, yeah, I'm with you. So that seemed to be the most logical thing, that it was partly the idea that, you know,

00:18:55.530 - 00:19:16.070

women involved together can create havoc and harmony, but that you didn't have the institutionalisation of how it always was. That was the ideal, you know, was that, you know, because now, like now, you know, you go into a room, the men speak more,

00:19:16.070 - 00:19:34.550

the men speak for longer. You know, it's changing, but it's still incredibly slow. So it seemed to be a really good idea to organise as women. And then there was the whole, we talked about morals and ethics of,

00:19:39.450 - 00:19:51.670

like Susan Griffin's book, Women in Ecology, was that sensation of like, oh, the earth is a mother, earth is us, we are women, this is what's happening to us, and this is happening to the earth.

00:19:51.750 - 00:20:05.150

So there's a sort of real connection with women for life on earth. That was the other group. Oh, God, it's coming back slowly, brain. So there was a connection between ecology that seemed like,

00:20:05.290 - 00:20:20.170

okay, you know, we are the only ones who can safeguard the land, and safeguard people, because we're not going to be creating the conditions for aggression and violence and stuff. That's the ideal.

00:20:20.630 - 00:20:30.710

Yeah. Of course, the reality is different. With some people. Well, we are still conditioned by the external conditions

00:20:30.710 - 00:20:42.610

that we've come under. And if you are, you know, got privilege in education, then you've probably got more use of language, so therefore you're more articulate,

00:20:42.910 - 00:21:06.250

so therefore you become more the go-to person to speak out. So there's those sort of lines that will exist, because that's life. And also, you know, just because women are wanting to be peaceful,

00:21:07.310 - 00:21:18.090

we are still products of our environment, and, you know, can still be aggressive. Yeah. Just by being, you know, use of language, use of body,

00:21:18.730 - 00:21:27.870

that kind of stuff. We're not actually attacking anybody. And, you know, one of the things that... Yeah, that was, yeah.

00:21:28.470 - 00:21:40.630

Yeah. And in terms of non-violent direct action, did it work, do you think, at Greenham, and were you part of anything to do with that as well?

00:21:40.930 - 00:21:55.890

I think it was a really, really useful tool, because it meant that there was a cohesiveness around the group, because you formed a, you know, support group, so you learnt the skills, you learnt the techniques,

00:21:56.130 - 00:22:09.510

you had your affinity group, or your little support group, you had a legal observer who was part of it, but not part of the action. So there was a way of being observed and recorded for both sides.

00:22:10.610 - 00:22:27.710

So it felt like it made it a much safer way of being confrontational. I think that it's the only way to speak truth to power in that sense, because if you go there and say, well, I've got a gun, I'm going to just shoot you,

00:22:27.870 - 00:22:44.390

it's like, it's not going to achieve anything. So I think it's a really useful tool, and it's not the only tool, because if you're, as we know from many other peace activists

00:22:44.390 - 00:23:04.910

throughout the world now, as much as the last 40 years, is that peace activists get moaned down, because unless it's recognised by both sides that this is an acceptable form of protest,

00:23:05.390 - 00:23:20.470

and a manageable form of protest, then you end up getting killed or maimed, because your government is not interested in democracy or having a say, or whatever.

00:23:20.630 - 00:23:38.530

Whereas here, in England at least, that's institutionalised, that's set in stone. How it's practised is obviously different, because when you're being dragged off from sitting down,

00:23:39.070 - 00:23:48.050

you can be dragged off very nicely, and with consideration and care, and yes, you've got a right to protest, and you've got a point, and that's fine.

00:23:48.050 - 00:24:07.370

Or you can be dragged off because you're a complete nuisance, and actually if I can disable you for a couple of days, fantastic. And did you see any non-violent direct action tactics used elsewhere after Greenham,

00:24:07.590 - 00:24:23.750

and think that's been influenced by what we did? I think... I mean, it's part of a much broader movement, isn't it? Because we got it from loads like Seneca Women's Camp,

00:24:23.850 - 00:24:33.210

lots of other places that use non-violent direct action. Gandhi was obviously the first one to go, right, we're just going to keep walking for salt, and that's what we're going to do.

00:24:34.370 - 00:24:44.390

So there's a history of different ways of doing it from... I don't know what happened before Gandhi. My politics... I should have studied peace studies.

00:24:46.490 - 00:24:58.870

But it's certainly still being used today. I mean, OK, locking on, which is sort of the latest kind of thing of like, yes, I'm just being passive,

00:24:59.030 - 00:25:13.870

but I'm locking on to your machine or your gates or whatever, still seems like a rusely, sane thing to do. So, yeah. And in terms of the relationships that you had with the men

00:25:13.870 - 00:25:21.070

around the base, not only the base, but even if you interacted with men, like we've been talking about, Carrie Greenham Home, what was their reaction to Greenham

00:25:21.070 - 00:25:31.170

and the work that you were doing? Varied. Varied between broadly kind, supportive, curious, interested,

00:25:34.470 - 00:25:54.170

to quite challenged, antagonistic and violent. So, you know, there was a range of attitudes. So mostly, certainly within the kind of CND mixed peace groups, there was quite a lot of respect

00:25:55.050 - 00:26:02.790

and a sort of vague understanding that this seemed to be working, even though it was a bit weird. OK.

00:26:06.370 - 00:26:23.870

That's what I remember. And most of the poor reaction to Greenham was on the street. You know, that's much more... Yeah.

00:26:24.230 - 00:26:32.010

So we used to have a peace vigil every Friday during the market. In Tottenham. In Tottenham.

00:26:32.490 - 00:26:39.950

So we made this... I can't remember who made it, but they made this beautiful cloak so you'd stand there with the cloak on

00:26:41.270 - 00:26:49.690

in rotation and you'd stand there silently meditating and we'd have a... We had a peace tree.

00:26:50.110 - 00:26:57.850

We bought a peace tree and we had this... We wanted to plant this tree for peace and of course the council

00:26:57.850 - 00:27:08.490

didn't want to have us plant the tree for peace. So we had this tree in a pram with a saw in it so there was a pram with a tree in it and the peace vigil

00:27:08.490 - 00:27:18.490

and a little group was giving out leaflets talking to people protecting the person who was standing doing the peace vigil

00:27:18.490 - 00:27:27.030

because it's great for little kids and stuff. Well, not so many now. Youths wanted to go, Oh, I'll go and push him over.

00:27:28.930 - 00:27:36.930

Or throw stuff at you, which... It's kind of... But there you go. That was sort of fairly mild,

00:27:37.370 - 00:27:50.190

fairly contained, quite nice to being at Orange Gate or Blue Gate and having stuff thrown at you from cars, which isn't very pleasant at all.

00:27:50.930 - 00:27:58.290

I mean, verbal abuse is one thing but then you're being... Stuff thrown at you and you're not quite sure what it's going to be.

00:27:58.430 - 00:28:04.450

Oh, nice! Horrid. Scary. Yeah, I can imagine.

00:28:06.470 - 00:28:15.750

But mostly, I didn't think that they... I guess at the time my attitude towards men was very different to my attitude now.

00:28:16.810 - 00:28:27.770

So I didn't really want to waste a load of time and energy on making them understand. It's like, isn't it fucking obvious? What are you doing about it, really?

00:28:27.770 - 00:28:38.410

Rather than try to make them do something different. And do you find that attitude softened over time or got harder? Or just changed? Attitude towards men?

00:28:38.710 - 00:28:53.390

It's like that kind of attitude, it's like that, I don't need to explain this to you, you should understand. I think...

00:28:58.010 - 00:29:10.190

I think it's quite an arrogant place. Because I'm just thinking, it's like the amount of times I have to explain my life to people, women, you know, as much as men,

00:29:13.590 - 00:29:23.170

that don't get it. And you just go, right, OK, where do you start? So you have to start from something

00:29:23.170 - 00:29:37.910

where you've got some shared understanding. And then moving on from that. So, yeah, I don't know whether... I mean, I hope, you know,

00:29:37.990 - 00:29:46.410

you hope that things have changed somewhat, you know, because you go, well, you know, when they're driving trains.

00:29:49.970 - 00:29:55.870

Planes. Running the country. Well, I know Margaret Thatcher was running the country, that fucking bastard.

00:29:56.230 - 00:30:02.370

God! But, you know, it's that thing of... Yeah, sorry, I'm waffling. No, no, you're not at all.

00:30:04.570 - 00:30:17.570

And what was your relationship like if you had any trouble with the local residents at Greenham? I was really, really lucky that... So there was the vigilantes,

00:30:18.110 - 00:30:26.450

who were deeply unpleasant. And retrospectively, I can say, you know, at the time when I was there,

00:30:26.450 - 00:30:35.130

it was really, really scary. Because you felt like, you know, any minute now they were going to firebomb you. Never did while I was there,

00:30:35.250 - 00:30:47.550

so I was really, really lucky. But there was that sort of sense of threat. But they never got out of the cars and came over. So actually, they were quite scared.

00:30:48.530 - 00:30:57.330

But I didn't recognise that so much at the time, I don't think. And there was quite a few people locally who were really supportive

00:30:57.330 - 00:31:15.670

and would take stuff home to wash, help people have baths, stuff like that. So I didn't experience much animosity. A few times you get kind of...

00:31:15.670 - 00:31:24.730

What's the word? Into discussions with people locally. You just have to agree to disagree. Because I'm not interested in having

00:31:24.730 - 00:31:37.510

a long, drawn-out ding-dong with somebody who just wants to chew my head off. Pointless. And you've talked about your friends

00:31:37.510 - 00:31:43.770

doing theatre pieces as well. Was there any kind of other artistic activity that you saw or were involved with going on in the camps as well?

00:31:43.790 - 00:31:55.890

There was always somebody doing something. Because... Oh, I can't talk now, is there? There was always somebody doing something.

00:31:56.250 - 00:32:09.710

So constantly the fence was being decorated, redecorated with people's memorabilia or weaving webs or that kind of stuff. Quite a lot of women were doing little drawings

00:32:09.710 - 00:32:20.670

and stuff like that. They were doing labyrinths on the ground and doing little rituals. So quite a lot of creative art stroke.

00:32:21.450 - 00:32:39.650

Spiritual practice is what it felt like. So that was part of how the whole thing seemed to be, was making it beautiful as well. Well, as much as you could do.

00:32:40.670 - 00:32:51.310

Because there was always phases where... When it was basic survival, then it was much more difficult to do anything other than basically survive.

00:32:54.530 - 00:33:14.210

That was quite challenging. And this is kind of going on later. How much do you think the camp was politically infiltrated or sabotaged towards the end?

00:33:14.790 - 00:33:30.830

Ah, well, that's a really interesting question. I mean, that's a really interesting question because it was one of those questions that came up over and over again

00:33:30.830 - 00:33:44.690

as to whether we should be paranoid, whether we should trust everybody. And did that gradually happen over time? I think, well, for me, it was the thing of like,

00:33:44.750 - 00:33:54.710

well, I could either be really, really paranoid and not trust anybody, or I just go, well, I'm going to trust them as much as I can trust them. And if I don't feel like I can trust them,

00:33:54.770 - 00:34:09.950

then I'm not going to share with them. I mean, that's the same now. There was always the joke of, oh, yeah, you know, police informers, you know, all that kind of stuff.

00:34:10.290 - 00:34:22.250

And I think, to some degree, there's that naivety of going, oh, they can't be bothered with us. You know, we're not that much of a threat, really. Which you kind of hear now, when you hear about the state

00:34:22.250 - 00:34:30.250

kind of on people's calls and things like that, or Facebook and data, you're kind of like, well, they can't be concerned with me. It's not for the point, though.

00:34:30.450 - 00:34:41.050

No, the fact that we're in a surveillance society is a different kind of thing. I mean, you know, back then, you know, it was word of mouth and snail mail.

00:34:42.270 - 00:34:53.050

So you'd get a, you know, you'd make a flyer, and you'd do ten copies and send them to ten friends, and they would do ten copies and send them to ten friends. So that was the way of getting information out.

00:34:53.930 - 00:35:07.050

And obviously, some of that information would go to people that you would rather didn't know about it. But I don't, it's hard to know. I mean, certainly the wages for housework stuff,

00:35:07.790 - 00:35:21.990

which is the thing that was, I mean, obviously, for me, that was the thing that made me upset more than anything else, was not being able to be all women together because of having that division.

00:35:23.910 - 00:35:36.430

What was that, wages for housework? You know, wages for housework, that was at Maingate. Oh, OK. So there was a, this is dishing back old politics.

00:35:36.430 - 00:35:48.310

So there was an English collection of prostitutes, which I think is what now it's called, but it used to be King's Cross Women's Centre. And, you know, the first time I heard about wages for housework,

00:35:48.330 - 00:36:01.470

I thought, oh my God, what a fantastic idea! How radical, how marvellous, yes, what a great idea. And, you know, that sort of idea of like going, well, you know, how do you empower all women,

00:36:01.550 - 00:36:09.470

and how do you, you know, make women's work count, whatever the work is. You know, that seemed like a really good idea, and I was quite keen on that.

00:36:11.410 - 00:36:28.050

Until I met some of the women who were there, and went, ooh, yeah, it doesn't quite feel comfortable. And because I'm coming from a sort of ecology, spiritual practice,

00:36:29.450 - 00:36:47.530

it wasn't really very easy to communicate, in that kind of way, that's what it felt like. So, and there was always the question, you know, of whether they, because, you know, they were our enemy,

00:36:48.590 - 00:36:59.590

if you have enemies, but they were, you know, they were taking things in a particular direction. What was the direction you followed? So it just felt like they wanted to talk about

00:37:02.150 - 00:37:16.050

a broader peace movement than our particular issue, that's what it felt like to me. And it always felt like, you know, because they wanted to be main gate,

00:37:16.390 - 00:37:28.970

that we are the spokespeople for, and that was completely not the understanding of how it had been set up, or evolved, or whatever. So I think it's that sort of thing,

00:37:29.070 - 00:37:37.890

like taking something off, and having a slightly different slant on it, and not quite trusting that. I'm not being very articulate here.

00:37:38.270 - 00:37:54.770

No, no, were they always there as well, or did they come later? I think they came later, because when I first started going,

00:37:55.090 - 00:38:08.630

and I went to main gate for quite a few times, I wasn't really aware of that. I think it was after, I don't know, maybe a year or so,

00:38:09.030 - 00:38:22.950

I think it was when the rest of the gate started, started getting going all around the perimeter. That's what I remember, but I mean, you know. My memory is so appallingly bad.

00:38:24.890 - 00:38:32.710

But I seem to think they came later. They didn't come immediately, but that was just my memory, which is pretty poor.

00:38:33.030 - 00:38:43.210

But they seemed to be around the whole time that I was there. They didn't seem to come and go. But then I guess I did avoidance, going, oh, I'm going to Yellow.

00:38:45.090 - 00:39:01.490

Or I'd pass through Yellow on a route. Was there anyone else around the sabotage infiltration question? Not for me, not for me at that point. I mean, not at Greenham, really.

00:39:03.550 - 00:39:11.110

And what do you feel is the legacy of Greenham within the peace movement, or any other kind of, like the feminist movement, or the lesbian, LGBTQ movement?

00:39:14.990 - 00:39:24.930

I think that's a really hard question. Because I thought it was, you know, the most amazing thing that had ever happened, because I was there,

00:39:25.070 - 00:39:38.670

and there were so many other things going on at the same time, and it was rippling out in a way that was so different to my life previously. So it was fundamentally, for me,

00:39:38.850 - 00:39:53.450

a complete life-changer. And I felt that it puts women's politics on the map, and certainly the sense of having women-only spaces and women-only actions

00:39:54.370 - 00:40:02.790

as a way to deal with male violence seemed like, you know, that's the only, not the only way, but it's the most effective way of doing that.

00:40:02.790 - 00:40:20.190

So in some ways, I think that's spilled out into a wider place. But I think that spilling out has diluted the memory. So, you know, I can talk to people and they go,

00:40:20.530 - 00:40:29.030

I used to think my mum went to Greenham. Oh, so what do you remember about it? Oh, I don't remember. It's just something, you know,

00:40:29.110 - 00:40:35.410

it's like that kind of, I don't remember anything about, oh, it was common land that the MOD had taken, gave it to the Americans,

00:40:35.650 - 00:40:46.190

we got the common land back, wow. Well, we also had to get rid of the nuclear missiles as well, which was, you know, pretty important, you know. But that, so that, I mean, you know, the victors,

00:40:46.590 - 00:40:55.790

which we were victorious, you know, in terms of winning that war, but in terms of, if that's a war, but in terms of being able to kind of have

00:40:58.490 - 00:41:10.910

a sea change in society. It's not enough, really. And do you feel that maybe because of the way the media treated the Greenham women,

00:41:11.450 - 00:41:20.790

or the whole project? It's that thing of dirty women squatting in the mud, they're all lesbos, they've all got mental health problems,

00:41:21.610 - 00:41:30.110

you know, all that kind of stuff, all of which is true, you know, don't get me wrong. You know, I think, I mean,

00:41:30.110 - 00:41:39.110

for many, many women, it continued to percolate through their lives. It's that thing of when you've got an idea about something, it changes your life,

00:41:39.350 - 00:41:48.190

and it might change it in a big way, in a very visible way, or in a, you know, quite a small way. So I do think that legacy has gone out in that sense,

00:41:48.290 - 00:41:58.230

but in a bigger sense, I'm not sure. It's hard. I went to see a piece, a theatre piece,

00:41:59.510 - 00:42:09.670

locally, we have this live in local organisation, and these three women came from Derby University, and they'd done a course, a university course in theatre,

00:42:10.490 - 00:42:17.950

and they came to do a piece on how to be an armchair activist, was the title of it. So I went to see it,

00:42:18.390 - 00:42:28.710

and it was appalling. I was just completely shocked, and I thought, oh, oh my God,

00:42:29.970 - 00:42:36.210

they don't know anything. Oh, this is really, these are supposed to be, you know, they were saying,

00:42:36.390 - 00:42:44.770

you know, we are political activists, we're women being political activists, and we're taking, so it went from suffragettes to pussy riot,

00:42:45.090 - 00:42:56.150

because nothing happened between suffragettes and pussy riot at all. So in the interval, we had these luggage labels on our chairs,

00:42:57.590 - 00:43:04.050

which we had to write something about what made us an activist, and they came around to collect them, and I said,

00:43:04.490 - 00:43:15.410

I can't write on a luggage label, you know, it would take a size of A4 of what I've done today as a political activist, because what is your definition of a political activist?

00:43:17.970 - 00:43:25.330

Because you're not really saying it in your piece, and I said, you know, I can't believe that you haven't mentioned Greenham Common,

00:43:25.910 - 00:43:30.930

and they went, what's Greenham Common? And you go, fuck, you know,

00:43:31.010 - 00:43:39.330

they don't even know, they don't even know that, and they've been researching women's activism, and that hasn't come up,

00:43:39.650 - 00:43:45.670

which is, yeah, that's kind of scary, really, because you think,

00:43:46.930 - 00:43:51.930

it's scary inside, because you think how, you know, how quickly it's to erase, I mean, I know I've got a terrible memory,

00:43:51.930 - 00:43:55.470

you know, I've got a really bad memory, and I don't remember half the things that, you know,

00:43:56.490 - 00:44:03.110

would be good to remember, but it was one of those things of going, oh my God, this is,

00:44:04.930 - 00:44:09.750

yeah, seriously bad. That's why I asked the question about media, is because,

00:44:11.530 - 00:44:17.010

kind of, in terms of sources, and source material for historians to look at, if this is the only version of Greenham

00:44:17.010 - 00:44:21.570

that they're being presented with, this White Royal Testimony, I feel, is so important for people to talk about,

00:44:21.930 - 00:44:25.550

their experience of Greenham, and what it actually meant to people, that, you know,

00:44:25.630 - 00:44:30.410

it's kind of, a cliche, the first draft of history is what is in the newspapers, but that,

00:44:30.610 - 00:44:37.730

those are primary sources for people, and if those sources are, wholly negative, then,

00:44:38.450 - 00:44:42.730

how, how, how can it, not be erased,

00:44:42.910 - 00:44:47.030

in that sense, unless people talk about it, but in that way, and that,

00:44:47.690 - 00:44:52.810

and that testimony that people are giving, like we're doing now, is spread, and so people can hear it,

00:44:54.410 - 00:45:01.430

because I've, it's completely off topic, as, I did history as my undergraduate degree,

00:45:01.630 - 00:45:07.670

and definitely what I found was, it's still a male preserve, it's male history, and women's history,

00:45:09.030 - 00:45:14.010

gender studies, or anything like that, is still a side project for people, it's not a way that we do history,

00:45:14.870 - 00:45:21.250

and, that's why I said it was really sad, because it's, it's not unpicking the fundamental,

00:45:21.570 - 00:45:27.270

of how the world works, to look at, activism, and say it goes from the subject to pussy, right,

00:45:27.370 - 00:45:33.190

of course it doesn't, of course there are millions, of women doing everyday activism, in their homes,

00:45:33.350 - 00:45:38.550

in their domestic lives, and, it's the way that maybe history is documented, and talked about,

00:45:38.930 - 00:45:43.290

that prevents people from finding out about that. Well, we know that. Yeah.

00:45:45.150 - 00:45:48.810

You know, I, I, I mean I can't say that I'm particularly,

00:45:50.070 - 00:45:57.430

au fait with, mainstream media, I mean obviously I hear the radio news, I sometimes see things on the telly,

00:45:57.610 - 00:46:06.750

I don't watch the television news, and mostly what I hear and see, I'm kind of fairly appalled by, because I go,

00:46:07.990 - 00:46:13.610

right, okay, what is it the government wants us to understand now, what is it they, what they don't want us to look at,

00:46:13.610 - 00:46:18.970

because that's how I see the media is, very much alongside. On the other hand, what I see is journalism,

00:46:19.430 - 00:46:25.650

which I think is an amazing craft, so, there are, there are fantastic journalists,

00:46:26.330 - 00:46:32.950

doing amazing stuff, but getting their stuff, into mainstream, is really difficult.

00:46:33.910 - 00:46:38.430

So, I think there's a, there's still that, power structure,

00:46:39.430 - 00:46:46.550

that needs dismantling. Yeah. Yes. And what was the piece called,

00:46:46.670 - 00:46:51.150

that you saw? I can't, I think it was called, you know,

00:46:51.210 - 00:46:56.030

How to be an Armchair Activist, or something like that, or you know, I think that's the piece.

00:46:57.410 - 00:46:59.990

But yeah, I mean, in my comments, you know,

00:47:00.630 - 00:47:03.910

I, you know, said quite a lot, but you know,

00:47:03.910 - 00:47:11.470

I said you know, this is surprising, Arts Council funded project, because I really thought it was,

00:47:12.050 - 00:47:16.270

poor. But, and that's really hard, you know,

00:47:16.290 - 00:47:19.470

it's like, and am I harder on women, than on other people? Maybe.

00:47:20.050 - 00:47:23.050

Maybe I am. But, because I wouldn't choose, to go and see some,

00:47:23.570 - 00:47:28.270

straight piece of theatre, about something, that I'm not interested in. That might be just as,

00:47:28.450 - 00:47:33.050

appallingly badly researched, and you know, not particularly interestingly, put together.

00:47:34.730 - 00:47:38.990

But, yeah. It wasn't all bad. You know.

00:47:40.030 - 00:47:43.730

Oh, we've kind of answered this question, but in case you wanted, to say anything else,

00:47:43.790 - 00:47:47.950

what do you think the reason is, that the movement, the suffrage movement, has been celebrated,

00:47:48.150 - 00:47:51.170

while this movement, has been ignored? We've kind of talked about that, but in case you wanted,

00:47:51.250 - 00:47:54.070

to say anything else. Well, I guess it's the thing of, you know,

00:47:54.110 - 00:47:59.490

something's very concrete. You know, the suffrage movement is, a very concrete thing.

00:48:00.310 - 00:48:02.870

It's, you know, a hundred years, you can't really,

00:48:03.670 - 00:48:08.330

I mean, I'm really pleased, that there's been, such a good focus on it,

00:48:08.390 - 00:48:12.730

with the First World War, and stuff. But I still feel like, they're still telling,

00:48:12.850 - 00:48:16.490

the same old story. Yeah. Which I find really, difficult,

00:48:16.770 - 00:48:19.750

because you go, okay, so women were really, you know,

00:48:19.810 - 00:48:21.390

struggling, struggling, fighting, fighting,

00:48:21.510 - 00:48:25.170

getting really badly abused, you know, force fed, blah, blah, blah.

00:48:25.290 - 00:48:29.010

And then suddenly, the world, the war starts, the movement gets split.

00:48:29.510 - 00:48:32.290

Oh, well, we'll kowtow, until the end of the war.

00:48:32.570 - 00:48:35.110

Oh, but it's only for the 30 year olds, who are, you know,

00:48:35.110 - 00:48:39.770

very privileged, and blah, blah, blah. So it wasn't really, it's fed to us,

00:48:40.490 - 00:48:46.370

that women have had the vote, and that's bollocks, because it's not true. And so the history,

00:48:46.590 - 00:48:51.090

gets rewritten, in the same way. And, yeah,

00:48:52.390 - 00:48:57.230

it's frustrating. Do you also think, maybe it's because, it's my theory,

00:48:57.410 - 00:49:01.570

that the suffrage movement, had a leader. It's easy to tell the story, of a person.

00:49:01.590 - 00:49:04.110

Or leaders. Yeah. Because there were, more than one leader,

00:49:04.190 - 00:49:10.270

in the suffrage movement, because of the, choice of using different tactics, and whether they wanted to be peace activists,

00:49:10.390 - 00:49:18.050

or wanted to be part of the war effort. So there was a big split anyway, as you know. yes,

00:49:18.130 - 00:49:26.190

of course it's much easier, if you've got a, hierarchical organisation, to be able to,

00:49:27.990 - 00:49:32.650

catalogue it, and to some degree, research it. Whereas something that's a,

00:49:33.390 - 00:49:38.330

a little more nebulous, like Greenham, that's not to say, that there weren't,

00:49:38.910 - 00:49:42.430

leaders, because obviously, there were some women, who chose to,

00:49:43.150 - 00:49:51.910

and were very good at, public speaking. And there was also, I mean,

00:49:52.010 - 00:49:56.310

you know, so there's the, Nonviolent Direct Action, Support Group,

00:49:56.430 - 00:50:00.230

Affinity Group, and then there was, Consentious Decision Making, which I presume,

00:50:00.270 - 00:50:08.770

you've probably heard, loads about. And that was, varyingly different,

00:50:09.150 - 00:50:15.210

depending on, who was sitting in the room. Because, and I said earlier about,

00:50:15.310 - 00:50:20.190

you know, if you're articulate and educated, then you tend to take the platform, more than other people.

00:50:20.850 - 00:50:30.370

And sometimes that can be, sometimes that could be, quite challenging. And because,

00:50:31.150 - 00:50:34.550

you know, there was a certain amount of, women who, gravitated towards Green,

00:50:34.610 - 00:50:42.090

and because of their, being on the margins of society, because of mental health problems, that also was a,

00:50:43.490 - 00:50:50.050

dynamic in the mix. so they could be, leaders in a different way. Yeah.

00:50:50.550 - 00:50:55.110

And, you know, I never thought of them as plants, but they were,

00:50:55.290 - 00:50:59.470

very, very good plants. And if you're going to, not sabotage, but certainly,

00:51:01.190 - 00:51:06.870

slow things up, and make things really sticky, that was a good way to do it. So how does it work,

00:51:06.990 - 00:51:12.130

kind of the contentious decision making? Sometimes it went really, really well. So,

00:51:12.450 - 00:51:18.150

an example of it working really well, is having a clear, kind of, intention,

00:51:18.670 - 00:51:25.290

of what you're trying to, thrash out. Having a talking stick, which is a tool used,

00:51:25.410 - 00:51:31.710

to Native American people. Those things work really, really well. We tried doing a timer,

00:51:33.730 - 00:51:40.310

which just was horrible. That really didn't work. To try and, speed things up,

00:51:40.530 - 00:51:48.750

because it was a very, drawn out, process. And sometimes when we could,

00:51:48.870 - 00:51:56.650

you know, needed to, talk a lot, and bring in a lot of,

00:51:58.330 - 00:52:03.670

to them, issues that were very important, but to some of us, it's hard to be respectful for that,

00:52:03.750 - 00:52:08.310

because it felt very, peripheral. Which I guess is the same, with any conversation.

00:52:09.170 - 00:52:12.730

So yes, consensus decision making, is a great, great thing,

00:52:12.950 - 00:52:20.450

and I still practice it, to some degree. But, in fact,

00:52:20.890 - 00:52:25.450

that's how I work, how we work in the workplace, is kind of working. So,

00:52:25.450 - 00:52:28.990

you know, it is useful, but it has to be, boundaried,

00:52:29.390 - 00:52:33.370

by, you know, what is your intention, and,

00:52:34.150 - 00:52:41.410

the time needs to be, respected, because otherwise, yeah.

00:52:42.910 - 00:52:47.610

And were they all, the consensus decision making, was it organised by gate, or camp,

00:52:47.910 - 00:52:51.570

or camp wide, or, or was it just fractions, or how would it,

00:52:51.970 - 00:52:55.910

the administration of it, is what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I'm trying to remember,

00:52:56.230 - 00:53:03.830

there were, I think some of it was, centrally administered, if that's right,

00:53:03.910 - 00:53:07.510

because, like when we were getting ready, to do an action, or something,

00:53:07.650 - 00:53:12.830

there would be, so we would, you know, get our affinity group,

00:53:12.890 - 00:53:15.990

and our support group, you know, in Devon, and go up,

00:53:16.910 - 00:53:20.890

the night before, or the day before, or two days before, and there would be then,

00:53:21.050 - 00:53:25.290

you know, something organised, at the gate, which may be happening,

00:53:25.370 - 00:53:29.750

at the same time, as other gates, because then there'd be runners, going on bicycles,

00:53:30.310 - 00:53:35.830

between the gates, passing messages. So, that we all had a sort of,

00:53:35.890 - 00:53:39.450

coordinated plan, at the end of the day. So, yeah.

00:53:39.850 - 00:53:42.810

You said about the black cardigans? No, tell, tell us about that one.

00:53:42.810 - 00:53:48.910

Oh, so, I can't remember where, so, because it evolved over time,

00:53:48.970 - 00:53:55.950

so there was a, there was a point where, we weren't doing criminal damage, because it was violence,

00:53:56.770 - 00:54:01.350

to, okay, let's, do a bit of criminal damage, but we won't call it that,

00:54:02.210 - 00:54:07.630

we'll just call it, oh, there's a hole in the fence, to, let's take the fence down,

00:54:08.750 - 00:54:12.310

so the, let's take the fence down, was the black cardigans. So,

00:54:12.390 - 00:54:16.670

the call went out, that, we were gonna, take down the fence,

00:54:17.030 - 00:54:20.330

just like, what the fuck, we're gonna take down the fence, oh shit.

00:54:21.830 - 00:54:28.330

And, so, we were all told to bring a black cardigan, which was a code name for bolt cutter,

00:54:29.630 - 00:54:33.150

and, so, yes, we all duly, I've got photographs,

00:54:33.750 - 00:54:38.770

so we all duly turned up, I'm pretty sure it must have been around Halloween, because we're all dressed up as, as,

00:54:39.150 - 00:54:44.950

you know, typical witches, and so we had to practice, at home,

00:54:45.350 - 00:54:51.110

with bolt cutters, you know, being able to get on top of somebody's shoulders, and,

00:54:51.810 - 00:54:55.070

clip away, you know, because, that's how you,

00:54:55.110 - 00:54:59.530

managed to do it. That was quite fun, quite exciting, bloody scary,

00:55:00.570 - 00:55:05.730

and, and, completely, you know,

00:55:05.890 - 00:55:14.350

the men on the other side were just, didn't know what to do, just could not figure out what on earth we were doing, and why we were doing it,

00:55:14.370 - 00:55:18.130

because, we were just taking the fence down, no one wanted to come in, we just wanted to take the fence down,

00:55:18.570 - 00:55:23.010

which made them feel terribly exposed, and some of them were like, no, no, take the fence down, you know,

00:55:23.070 - 00:55:28.170

trying to hold the fence up, and, you know, it was kind of interesting.

00:55:29.570 - 00:55:34.150

So, yeah. So how was that decision made, to do that?

00:55:34.670 - 00:55:40.190

How was that decision made? I guess somebody, or, a group of women,

00:55:40.470 - 00:55:43.990

or, you know, somebody had an idea, and said,

00:55:44.330 - 00:55:49.510

oh, what about this? So, you know,

00:55:49.750 - 00:55:54.270

it would catch on, you know, somebody sent in somebody else, so,

00:55:54.330 - 00:55:55.810

oh yeah, yeah, we can do this, we can do that,

00:55:55.870 - 00:56:01.270

we can do it all. So, I remember the teddy bears picnic, which,

00:56:02.650 - 00:56:09.490

we kind of misinterpreted, we decided that, yeah, let's do this teddy bears picnic,

00:56:09.650 - 00:56:14.470

so it was a mass invasion of the base, that was the, so this is kind of later on, you know,

00:56:15.110 - 00:56:18.030

let's, you know, they can't arrest us all, they can't press us all,

00:56:18.130 - 00:56:21.630

because there's not enough room in the jails, and, you know, blah, blah,

00:56:22.530 - 00:56:24.910

so right, okay, we're going to do that, and for some reason,

00:56:25.050 - 00:56:30.650

we decided we were going to go to the teddy bears picnic, because it was near Easter, we were all going to go as Easter eggs, and Easter chickens,

00:56:33.110 - 00:56:39.910

so that's what we did, yeah, so there were, interpretations with interpretations,

00:56:40.230 - 00:56:47.130

because, there was no, so there were some things that were very clear, like the,

00:56:47.650 - 00:56:56.450

black cardigans, that needs to be, done very, clearly,

00:56:57.330 - 00:57:01.250

and, all together, and, you know,

00:57:01.410 - 00:57:07.570

because we didn't want to get picked off, and I wasn't, you know, you've heard about the silos action,

00:57:08.950 - 00:57:15.090

that was also quite, you know, right, timing and stuff like that,

00:57:15.230 - 00:57:20.130

so, yeah, I guess it's that thing like, you have to agree together,

00:57:21.070 - 00:57:29.010

that this is a good idea, and then you have to trust people to, or trust women that they're going to, carry it out roughly in the right way,

00:57:30.950 - 00:57:37.290

it's all going to work out fine, yeah. And, this is more about children,

00:57:37.490 - 00:57:41.570

which you, and it's because, there were children at camp, obviously,

00:57:41.570 - 00:57:47.210

and what, did you see any particular challenges, around having children at the camp, or,

00:57:47.730 - 00:57:52.350

and kind of, how are they educated, medical treatment for them, and what,

00:57:52.550 - 00:57:58.030

if any, do you think was a lasting impact on them? But you might not be able to answer that. So,

00:57:59.770 - 00:58:04.990

so, what comes is that, for a lot of us at the time, it was like,

00:58:05.070 - 00:58:10.550

you know, there was no way we were going to become mothers in this world, so it was, that was the kind of,

00:58:10.550 - 00:58:18.250

the thing around children was about, we're being denied the right to have children, because you're making the world unsafe for us. That was a big strand,

00:58:19.730 - 00:58:26.570

for a lot of us. There were children there, that visited, I mean,

00:58:26.610 - 00:58:34.150

obviously there were children born there, because that's been documented and stuff like that, and, I don't remember,

00:58:34.690 - 00:58:43.250

the kids being particularly, difficult. That seemed, you know,

00:58:43.290 - 00:58:45.850

it's like, yes, there were kids there, there weren't a lot of kids there,

00:58:48.790 - 00:58:55.390

they seemed to be relatively, okay. You know, I didn't seem to see them being,

00:58:56.530 - 00:59:01.890

miserable, or miserable and not comforted, you know, because obviously everybody gets miserable,

00:59:02.490 - 00:59:04.590

but there was usually, you know, somebody would, you know,

00:59:04.590 - 00:59:06.530

give them a cuddle, or say, well, let's go and,

00:59:06.650 - 00:59:11.310

you know, get some wood for the fire, or let's go and do something, or,

00:59:11.430 - 00:59:15.550

you know, whatever. So, I didn't really see children being miserable,

00:59:15.710 - 00:59:19.510

whether or not they were. That was an hour. Yep. Whether or not they were being,

00:59:21.310 - 00:59:27.730

educated, they were surely getting educated, because, life is an education,

00:59:27.970 - 00:59:34.810

and being in an environment like that, where they've got to try and make sense of, what the fuck is going on, and,

00:59:36.810 - 00:59:44.610

try and integrate that into some kind of meaning. I'd be really dead curious to talk to them about, what they remember, because,

00:59:46.590 - 00:59:54.030

I don't know what sense they make to literally. But yeah, I mean, I don't remember anybody,

00:59:56.530 - 01:00:01.850

I don't remember any child being unwell, and not being, you know, taken care of,

01:00:01.910 - 01:00:04.050

or anything like that. The same was, you know, sometimes,

01:00:04.170 - 01:00:08.550

you know, women would get injured, and you know, you'd take care of them as best as you could,

01:00:08.610 - 01:00:12.870

or if they needed hospital treatment, then yeah. That's, you know,

01:00:12.930 - 01:00:16.790

we're still living in a civilised world, and the hospital, some of us have paid our taxes, so,

01:00:16.930 - 01:00:23.450

you know. And, you've talked about this kind of, throughout the interview,

01:00:23.530 - 01:00:27.550

but how would you say that being an activist, and campaigner, has affected, or continues to affect,

01:00:27.610 - 01:00:31.710

your personal life, and how do the two intertwine? You've said previously, of course they do.

01:00:31.710 - 01:00:34.490

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's that thing,

01:00:34.590 - 01:00:39.550

isn't it, of, um, you have an experience,

01:00:39.710 - 01:00:43.650

or you get an idea, which, you know, is it the experience that gives the idea,

01:00:43.790 - 01:00:50.210

or whatever, that forms your idea of how the world works, and whether you feel comfortable with that,

01:00:50.230 - 01:00:55.050

or not comfortable with that, from day dot. So, you know,

01:00:55.250 - 01:01:00.330

what do you mean by activism? You know, is it saying, I,

01:01:00.330 - 01:01:05.310

I don't want to wear skirts, you know, I don't want pink, you know,

01:01:05.390 - 01:01:10.570

that's activism. If, you're expected to wear pink, and like to wear skirts,

01:01:10.750 - 01:01:15.310

or, whatever it is, it's like not having your individuality, you know,

01:01:15.670 - 01:01:20.410

respected. So that's your own personal kind of, thing. And then there's the,

01:01:20.790 - 01:01:26.830

seeing how people are treated around you, and, modelling that behaviour. So if you think that it's,

01:01:27.050 - 01:01:32.570

okay that, uh, the mother does everything, then that's what you expect.

01:01:33.110 - 01:01:37.930

Or you might question that, and go, that doesn't seem fair. Or,

01:01:38.090 - 01:01:41.970

you know, all those kind of things that, when you're growing up, you notice those things,

01:01:42.050 - 01:01:48.750

and then you get socialised into the wider society, and go, hang on, why is that the way that it is?

01:01:49.070 - 01:01:54.030

You know, you question your experiences, and you make, the best sense you can of it.

01:01:54.930 - 01:02:01.030

And, if you still retain some of that, um, I'd say,

01:02:01.450 - 01:02:07.430

connectiveness, then, you're more likely to come out of it being a sort of, socialist.

01:02:08.370 - 01:02:13.630

Because you go, oh yes I'm not, I am part of the planet, I am part of the earth,

01:02:13.690 - 01:02:19.930

and I am part of everything, and therefore what I do makes a difference. Um, and you're more likely to be an activist.

01:02:20.890 - 01:02:25.030

Because you don't want to see, like, trashing the world, trashing the world is trashing my body,

01:02:25.190 - 01:02:27.650

so, you know. There's a certain, I mean obviously,

01:02:27.990 - 01:02:31.290

there's a grey area, you know, I like to, you know,

01:02:32.250 - 01:02:36.390

eat things that I shouldn't do, and drink things I shouldn't do. Hey ho, you know,

01:02:37.110 - 01:02:40.950

haven't started on the cookies yet. Um, and it's the same with like, you know,

01:02:40.970 - 01:02:45.010

I go, well you know, yes I drink cow's milk. You know,

01:02:45.170 - 01:02:49.790

yes I'll go and buy organic milk when I can, but you know, I haven't given up the cow's milk. You know,

01:02:50.090 - 01:02:52.830

even though, you know, my, um,

01:02:52.950 - 01:02:58.390

food politics, started fairly early on, and, I did try and be vegan for some time,

01:02:58.510 - 01:03:02.470

but, you know, I like what I like. So there is that,

01:03:03.970 - 01:03:06.250

grey, fudgy area, where, you know,

01:03:06.430 - 01:03:09.310

none of us can be, totally, ethically, right on,

01:03:09.650 - 01:03:14.330

unless you're an aesthete, or a, you know, something like that.

01:03:15.870 - 01:03:19.170

Does that answer your question? I don't know. absolutely it does, and I think it's,

01:03:20.490 - 01:03:23.270

I like that you kept saying, earlier in the interview, about, like,

01:03:23.370 - 01:03:28.530

a moral and principled life, I think it was, a moral and ethical life, and I think that,

01:03:29.830 - 01:03:33.770

it's a tangent, I've been watching this TV show, called The Good Place, and it's about,

01:03:33.970 - 01:03:38.650

how it's kind of, harder, to do it, in a contemporary society,

01:03:38.790 - 01:03:42.110

because like you say, it's like cow's milk, but also that, you know,

01:03:42.250 - 01:03:44.690

to drink, oat milk, for example, is expensive,

01:03:44.930 - 01:03:48.690

soya milk, also, disrupts the developing world, and things like that,

01:03:48.770 - 01:03:52.370

so, of course it's much more complicated, I'm vegetarian, I'm the same,

01:03:52.590 - 01:03:56.090

tried to be vegan, on and off, and still, like you,

01:03:56.210 - 01:04:00.410

tried to make decisions, that I feel are more, ethical and moral, but then there's,

01:04:00.510 - 01:04:04.430

other things that come with, making those decisions, but, you know,

01:04:04.570 - 01:04:08.590

I can't remember, I can't remember which, Native American, or First Nation,

01:04:09.770 - 01:04:14.250

people said, you know, we will not make a decision, about anything,

01:04:15.090 - 01:04:19.270

that's going to affect, our tribe, unless we can, be clear,

01:04:19.410 - 01:04:22.150

that it's for, seven generations, it'll be okay. Mm-hmm.

01:04:24.430 - 01:04:26.550

So, I think, wow, that's,

01:04:26.550 - 01:04:31.590

that's quite, that's very long, long-sighted, is to go,

01:04:31.670 - 01:04:34.090

okay, so if we, if we move towards, growing oats,

01:04:34.330 - 01:04:37.850

more oats in this country, which grow really, really well here, fantastic,

01:04:39.030 - 01:04:41.250

okay, yes, we should all, eat more oats,

01:04:42.130 - 01:04:47.490

but, oat milk, is, a nutritionally poor food,

01:04:48.890 - 01:04:52.270

so, that's fine, because we're, in a developed world,

01:04:52.430 - 01:04:55.990

and we're all relatively, affluent, so we can get our nutrition, from other places,

01:04:56.130 - 01:05:00.630

but it's not going to, it's not part of a whole, yeah, don't,

01:05:01.390 - 01:05:05.570

I could go on, a right project here, which I will, yeah,

01:05:05.830 - 01:05:08.670

yeah, but it's that, it is that whole thing of, it is very,

01:05:08.790 - 01:05:13.090

very complex, you know, having a, an ethical,

01:05:13.230 - 01:05:16.710

or moral stamp out, where you go, what I do, and say,

01:05:16.810 - 01:05:20.070

and how I act, and what, what I choose, makes a difference,

01:05:20.110 - 01:05:23.290

it makes a difference in my world, but it makes a difference, to everybody else, we are all interconnected,

01:05:24.030 - 01:05:28.430

and that is absolutely true, and it is very complex, I mean, the idea that,

01:05:28.570 - 01:05:32.130

you know, not that I want to bang on about vegans, but, you know,

01:05:32.430 - 01:05:36.850

becoming vegan is not, you know, it's like as if you've got a personal solution, it's like all we've got to do,

01:05:36.910 - 01:05:44.730

is become vegans, and you can, stop the, descent into global chaos,

01:05:46.950 - 01:05:54.190

I'm sorry, that ain't going to work, because it's way more complex than that, and I think so,

01:05:55.050 - 01:05:59.150

it's a good start, it's a good step, to be going, what am I eating,

01:05:59.250 - 01:06:03.950

why am I eating it, is this good for my body, is this good for my community, is this good for my planet,

01:06:04.750 - 01:06:07.930

you know, that's great, because then you go, oh,

01:06:08.290 - 01:06:14.190

actually, I should maybe, eat that knocked down pheasant, that I saw on the side of the road,

01:06:14.250 - 01:06:21.150

it wasn't there the day before, so it's probably all right, and I think, putting,

01:06:21.870 - 01:06:27.410

so much responsibility, on the individual, to change their habits as well, absolves,

01:06:27.490 - 01:06:31.070

things we, as individuals, have no power, exactly,

01:06:31.190 - 01:06:36.430

yeah, we could try to, protest, and things like that,

01:06:36.510 - 01:06:41.330

but ultimately, power is held by, businesses, transglobal corporations,

01:06:41.550 - 01:06:46.730

yes, and right wing fascist organisations, and aren't they doing a fantastic job, oh,

01:06:47.990 - 01:06:52.670

yesterday's news was just, really what we wanted to hear, one of my patients came in, and I said,

01:06:53.070 - 01:06:55.070

how are you doing this, oh god, I've just heard the news, and I said,

01:06:56.610 - 01:07:01.470

do you want to tell me, and I said, oh great, that's brought the right wing coup,

01:07:01.850 - 01:07:06.910

just a little closer, divide and rule, fuck, yeah,

01:07:07.210 - 01:07:14.030

anyway, yes, we sort of talked about this, this is,

01:07:14.770 - 01:07:18.930

one of, a question that, is difficult to answer, and I really do appreciate that,

01:07:18.930 - 01:07:23.490

could you talk me through, a typical day, or one of your typical days, at Greenham,

01:07:23.870 - 01:07:28.730

with the kind of, day to day, administration of how, your day worked,

01:07:28.870 - 01:07:34.530

essentially, which I know is a kind of, hard question, it's to drill down into,

01:07:35.190 - 01:07:39.730

the administration, and domestic things of the camp, essentially, so,

01:07:41.270 - 01:07:48.550

let's think, so when you emerge, okay, is,

01:07:49.550 - 01:07:55.010

I guess it's assess the situation, okay, so, you emerge and you assess the situation,

01:07:55.210 - 01:07:59.930

which means, if you need a pee, go and have a pee, then,

01:08:00.510 - 01:08:05.450

have a look and check that the fire's, still going, not going, if it's pissing with rain,

01:08:05.970 - 01:08:12.150

is the firewood covered, that kind of stuff, go back to bed, unless you want to get up,

01:08:12.890 - 01:08:18.350

because obviously the first thing you do, when you're up, is to get the fire going, get the water going,

01:08:18.870 - 01:08:25.910

or get the water, because, sometimes that was a whole, trip in itself,

01:08:26.290 - 01:08:32.150

to go and get water, and where would you get it from, there was a standpipe, there was a couple of standpipes,

01:08:33.310 - 01:08:39.850

we'd usually stop at a, petrol station, and fill jerrycans, of water,

01:08:40.830 - 01:08:46.810

to use, and then, usually, some of the people would come and drift out,

01:08:47.910 - 01:08:55.150

and it's like, alright, next thing would be, go off and find somewhere to have a wash,

01:08:56.990 - 01:09:04.430

which is usually a hot water bottle of water, because that's still, hopefully vaguely warm, because that's kind of nice,

01:09:04.510 - 01:09:11.870

get dressed, go and eat something, which would be either, a 20 minute experience,

01:09:12.490 - 01:09:19.950

or a two and a half hour experience, depending on, what was happening, so you could go there and go,

01:09:20.830 - 01:09:25.470

alright, I'll just make a bit of porridge, and then, I'll just make a bit more porridge,

01:09:25.770 - 01:09:29.730

or, I'm just going to make porridge for who's here now, and they can make their own porridge, so it was,

01:09:30.410 - 01:09:39.170

so the administrative stuff would depend on, if there's six of you, at a gate, then you're going to make,

01:09:39.610 - 01:09:43.810

more, decisions, for the collective, because there's,

01:09:43.930 - 01:09:48.810

a small group, if there's 30 of you, then, it's a bit more chaotic,

01:09:50.230 - 01:09:57.630

and takes a longer process, and, so cooking, seemed to be quite a,

01:09:58.790 - 01:10:04.310

a big kind of thing, lots and lots of making tea, lots and lots of talking, lots and lots of,

01:10:06.050 - 01:10:11.690

alright, let's go for a walk, and check out, what's happening,

01:10:12.710 - 01:10:17.930

somewhere else, if you were there, because there was a, action happening,

01:10:18.210 - 01:10:22.510

then, you'd usually, if I was with my group, we'd get together,

01:10:22.810 - 01:10:28.470

and check out how we're doing, and we've got everything we need, and does anybody, need something different,

01:10:30.530 - 01:10:38.230

and then there'd be the, if there was a camp vehicle, shopping runs, or fetching people runs,

01:10:38.570 - 01:10:45.170

or delivering people, or that kind of stuff, so, and that just seemed to be,

01:10:45.230 - 01:10:50.090

how the day went, you know, walks, food,

01:10:50.750 - 01:10:55.490

tea, talking, doing an action, if an action's taking place,

01:10:56.110 - 01:11:03.790

cleaning up, clearing up, yeah. And did you ever experience the Bayless?

01:11:04.110 - 01:11:09.070

Yes. Yes. You don't have to talk about it? Not tonight.

01:11:09.070 - 01:11:18.270

Not tonight. No, that was, I mean, it was really early on,

01:11:18.310 - 01:11:22.990

when they first started, so before they got really, really, really, really unpleasant,

01:11:23.070 - 01:11:29.990

but it was still pretty damn unpleasant. So, yeah. And what was the mood like, after they'd been?

01:11:39.470 - 01:11:55.470

Well, just thinking about it now is, it's like that sort of, pulling yourself together and going, in the bigger scheme of things,

01:11:55.970 - 01:12:03.810

in the bigger planet, this is just one of those things, and that would get you through, and that's what most,

01:12:04.830 - 01:12:10.650

I think, you know, it's like the bigger picture, keep the bigger picture in mind, because if you let yourself

01:12:10.650 - 01:12:17.810

go into the smaller place, then it just reminded me of all the other times you'd been abused, and that's a really unpleasant feeling, so.

01:12:21.430 - 01:12:28.650

Yeah. I think there was, I think what, it seemed,

01:12:28.730 - 01:12:32.630

yeah, it seemed to be there were some women who were very good at doing the kind of, right,

01:12:32.710 - 01:12:38.690

okay, they've gone, let's pull it together, blah, blah. There were some women

01:12:38.690 - 01:12:48.030

who just needed quite a bit of time to get themselves together, be sure they could come, and there was quite a lot of kindness,

01:12:51.870 - 01:13:03.010

and there were quite a lot of women who would sometimes get very, very, very, very angry, you know,

01:13:03.190 - 01:13:09.910

and that was quite hard sometimes, because it's not that, you know, I mean, because women's anger

01:13:09.910 - 01:13:15.950

can be really scary, it's true. I don't feel like there was any direct threat to me, or whatever,

01:13:16.070 - 01:13:22.930

but there's certainly, you know, like, how far on the edge does it make somebody go?

01:13:25.730 - 01:13:30.110

And could you explain why you think it's important that Greenham is remembered by subsequent generations?

01:13:31.690 - 01:13:39.130

Well, I think that the most important thing is that it reminds people of the interconnectivity.

01:13:41.930 - 01:13:45.230

that's what I would say is the most important thing, because it's that thing, I'm going,

01:13:45.710 - 01:13:51.810

oh, women organising together, this is not the first time it's happened. When else has it happened?

01:13:52.270 - 01:13:55.750

Which will eventually lead you back to, you know, matriarchal study,

01:13:56.110 - 01:13:59.650

and Crete, and, you know, back and back, and go,

01:14:00.130 - 01:14:09.470

oh, gosh, how interesting. Women have organised together, and have created societies, and that's not been written about.

01:14:10.230 - 01:14:13.210

So, that's one thing that's really important. The other thing

01:14:13.210 - 01:14:17.470

that's really important is being able to say that one of the legacies of Greenham is

01:14:18.630 - 01:14:26.350

that non-violent direct action is very useful, and is probably quite, much more difficult

01:14:26.350 - 01:14:30.570

to do with mixed groups. It's always been more difficult to do with mixed groups.

01:14:31.570 - 01:14:39.810

And I just think it's really inspirational for young women in particular to feel like,

01:14:40.370 - 01:14:47.210

oh, we could get together and do something, we could make a difference to something that feels

01:14:49.730 - 01:14:54.610

really big, like that, and not to be scared.