00:00:00.640 - 00:00:22.100

So I'd love to talk about Greenham, if I may. So first of all, when did you first come to Greenham? My first experience was the 30,000 women encircling the base, the Embrace the Base protest. That was amazing. Yeah, so I know that was kind of a first experience for a few women there.

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So how did you hear about Embrace the Base? I used to work at a women's centre in North Paddington. Basically, when I was at uni, back in 19... really long time, I don't know bloody hell when it was, 1978, I was looking for a placement and I got a placement in a community centre in North Paddington

00:00:42.100 - 00:00:59.700

and then a group of women got together and decided to get a women's centre. We managed to get funding and made a women's centre. And so obviously people would find out bits of stuff on the airwaves and would come back. So it was through contacts there and a group of four of us got really involved from that.

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So did you go all together, your group of four? Yeah, quite often. And quite often a bigger group as well. I mean, sometimes someone would hire a van and we'd all just kind of go down for the weekend. But there were four of us who were a bit of a group.

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It was Christine and Jeannie and Jill and I. And we would often go together when we could. And also Christine had kids as well and I had kids, so we had to kind of juggle stuff. And supportive partners, which was kind of helpful.

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I feel like that's a prerequisite for anyone leaving the home for the weekend. Yeah, if you've got children, you need to have someone to take care of them. So that was important. I think it was also important for my kids that I was doing it too.

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I mean, that they know now that I did that. Do you know what I mean? It's a part of their background. How old were they then? Laura was five and Jo was eleven.

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So Jo was very aware of it all, which was really nice. And Laura was just like, five. So did you bring the children to Greenham? Sometimes we'd go down, my husband would drive us, my ex would drive us down there.

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And we'd take a box of food for the women who lived there and stuff. So they'd visit and then they'd leave me there for the weekend. So that happened a few times. So yeah, they've got a taste of it, a flavour of it.

00:02:17.360 - 00:02:34.180

Because something that, when I was looking into Greenham, something that struck me was the children being there at the base. Maybe it's a silly question, but how did you explain what was going on to a five-year-old? How do you explain that?

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I don't think she really understood it at all. Mummy's going down because some not-very-nice people have got some things we want to get rid of. It was much more on that level. Whereas Jo, at eleven, he understood about it a lot more.

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Obviously not totally at eleven, but he understood that it was to do with American missiles, it was about not wanting big weapons on our land. Or anywhere, basically. Anywhere in the whole world.

00:03:02.120 - 00:03:16.060

So he kind of got it, yeah. And actually it's lovely, because when I had my 50th birthday, my daughter's 60th birthday, my daughter got people to write stuff in a book, got a book printed. And what he wrote about was the fact that I had done things like Greenham

00:03:16.060 - 00:03:26.200

and taken him on marches when he was little. It was this massive inspiration to him, and he was really proud of that, which was just lovely. It made me cry. I bet it did.

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Yeah, it was really nice. But I couldn't have personally had my kids there at the camp. It was too wild. You never knew when the police were going to arrive

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and remove the things you were sleeping in. So I wouldn't have felt that it was safe for them to be there. So when you first arrived for Embrace the Base, was it you as your group of four?

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Quite a few of us went. I can't exactly remember how I was thinking about this. Who went? Who went? I think that was one of the times when we had a minibus.

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Oh, nice. Quite a lot of us went. I think we had quite a few go down that day. I don't know how many, but lots.

00:04:07.680 - 00:04:21.380

What was your expectation, I suppose, driving this minibus, if you were in a minibus to Greenham? What did you think about it before you got there? Massively excited that it was happening

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and just really, really wanting to be part of it. This huge anticipation that you can make a difference. But then also, will we get enough women to hold hands around this massive thing?

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Because I remember looking at a map and thinking, good God, that's huge. So would we get enough people? But mostly just real excitement to be going there together

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as a group of women to join all these women to do something really important. And it just felt hugely celebratory. A lot of singing, a lot of, I don't know.

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Yeah, it just felt hugely celebratory. We can do this, we can make a difference. And the fact that it was women only was really important because guns and stuff, they're all long and pointy like men.

00:05:05.380 - 00:05:15.080

That sounds ridiculous. War is a very masculine thing on the whole. I know we have women soldiers now and it's different, but to me, it's still got a very masculine energy.

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And the female energy of Greenham was so important that we're nurturing all those kinds of things. They're all so bloody strong. And we can fight back in ways that are peaceful

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and different and innovative. And that was something that I got every time I went to Greenham, that there were these amazing things you could do that weren't stereotypical protest,

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but we could be creative. And I don't know who had the idea for the Embrace the Base, I don't know who it was, but it was just, you know, I love that woman.

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All those women, whoever they were. Yeah, and you're right, it is very creative. And I feel like it was such a creative space at Greenham. Oh, it really was.

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It really was, yeah. Wonderful. So, when you first got there, I mean, how was it organised?

00:06:03.240 - 00:06:12.340

I have absolutely no idea. We just pitched up and stood around a fence and held hands and sang songs. Yeah, did you just, like, did you have to kind of

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talk to people there who'd been there for a while? No, just arrived. Just arrived. Just pitched up and did it.

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And everyone was like, hi! It just happened. Just welcoming and lovely and inclusive. How long were you around the baseball?

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I don't remember. Really don't remember. I mean, it feels like hours and hours, just because so much happened in my head,

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do you know what I mean? About, you know, just really kind of getting this whole kind of inclusive thing and the joy of it and the power of it.

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And just that we could make a difference, it was really... You know, I think on that day I really thought, yeah, we can get rid of these bloody missiles,

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we don't have to have these here, we can do this. And that's not going to stop nuclear war, but it's going to stop something. You know, it's going to...

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Yeah, so I kind of had a real belief that day that we could do it. And had you been involved in protesting before? Have you been involved in kind of peace activism before?

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Was this your first time? I mean, I'm going on marches, like big CND marches and stuff like that. I mean, you know, I still pitch up on every big march.

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It's just like, well, it's what I do. But so, yeah, but not particularly, because my focus... I mean, because I had, you know, children

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and I was working in the women's centre, so the women's centre was very much a focus for local women when we worked with the women's refuge, local women's refuge, we had a black women's group

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and, you know, and I was an anti-native teacher at that point and helping mothers with birth. So I was very involved in the women's movement on a very kind of personal, intimate level, I suppose,

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but also going on big things like the CND marches and stuff. Yeah, so you were already kind of involved in that world. Yeah, it wasn't the first time I'd done anything that was to do with protest,

00:08:00.200 - 00:08:09.600

but it was certainly the first time I'd experienced such a powerful thing that was a woman-only protest. And, you know, when it got to the point later on when I was prepared to get arrested and stuff,

00:08:09.660 - 00:08:18.360

I mean, that was definitely a burst. Yeah. So what do you think it was about... Maybe I should ask you this first, actually.

00:08:18.540 - 00:08:28.080

Like, how long was the period that you were at Green? I know that you went mainly for weekends. Yeah, I'd just go for weekends. Not every weekend, obviously, but when I could.

00:08:28.260 - 00:08:37.020

I mean, all of us, the Paddington group, we'd go when we could. And I'd say probably, I mean, maybe other weekend, every other weekend we probably had some people going,

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but we couldn't all go at the same time. So there could have been a month when I didn't go, or six weeks even, but then I might go three weekends in a row.

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It just depended on what was happening with the family, when I could go, when there was transport down there, because I can't drive. Oh, OK, so you had to kind of rely on someone.

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Yeah, I'd always go with somebody else. And, yeah, it was just nice having the group anyway. And there was also, I mean, the wider sort of group of Green women in London

00:09:02.940 - 00:09:13.960

would organise things like non-violent protest training, so you'd learn how to just not resist arrest, just how to lie floppy and be dragged around and stuff like that. Yeah, I've seen the footage of that being used.

00:09:14.240 - 00:09:21.340

Yeah, so there was stuff like that going on too. So when, let's go to that, actually, let's go to those kind of actions where people are being kind of dragged around

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and you're kind of prepared to be arrested and things like that. I mean, what was the kind of journey for you to get to that point where you're going, actually, no, I could be arrested, that's fine?

00:09:32.340 - 00:09:39.900

Yeah, it took a while, because it's really scary. And I was just so full of admiration for the women who lived there and the women who were continually

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just allowing themselves to be arrested, to go to prison, to come back. You know, people would coat their fingertips with superglue so they couldn't get their fingerprints taken.

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And they were just incredibly brave. And some of them were quite scary also. But just incredibly brave women who were just prepared to do this.

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And I did, I mean, it takes a while, but, I mean, and there was so much... OK, so the night we did the witches, that was hilarious. I think it was Halloween.

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And we all took witches hats and, you know, cloaks and stuff like that. And we all hid in the woods. And I think all around the base

00:10:12.760 - 00:10:18.600

there were women hiding in the woods. And I can't remember what time it was. There's some prearranged signal. And we all came out of the woods

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and we were singing, Who are the witches? Where do they come from? Maybe your great-great-grandmother was one.

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Witches are wise, wise women, they say. There's a lot of witch in every woman today. And then we got out the wire cutters. There's a picture from the Guardian

00:10:33.300 - 00:10:40.680

of me standing on my friend Christine's shoulders cutting down the fence. And we basically cut it down and we rolled it up and sat on it and bounced on it.

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And all these poor little squaddies inside sort of going, what do we do? We just go, hey, who are the witches? So you do stuff like that.

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And so you get a bit more used to doing something bold, if you see what I mean, because that was quite, you know, are we going to shoot?

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Of course we're not going to shoot us, but I mean, there's guys with guns there. And actually one of my son's friends was one of those soldiers at Greenham.

00:11:03.440 - 00:11:11.580

I mean, he had a great kind of reawakening, left the army and just, you know, he's a green activist now and all sorts of stuff. But he was there and he remembers some of this stuff,

00:11:11.620 - 00:11:20.180

which is a really kind of interesting point. Like not knowing what the fuck are these women doing? Why are they all dressed as witches? So there was that.

00:11:20.280 - 00:11:26.180

And then another thing I did that I think gave me quite a lot of courage was doing a die-in inside the base. That was really scary

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because some woman had got tickets to go into an air show. There was an air show there. So I think about 10, 12 of us,

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I'm not sure how many, we went into the air show and then some of us laid down and got chalked around

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and the others were doing the chalking. And there was all these families coming to the air show, all these American airmen and their families just like looking at us.

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And so you do a couple of things like that and then you just get to the point where you think, oh, fuck it. You know, what, you know, fuck it.

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All these women are getting arrested all the time and, you know, I'm totally prepared to do that. And it was the four of us actually, it was Jill, Jeannie, Christie and I

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decided that next time we're there at a big action that we will, we'll just get arrested. And we were sitting outside, I think it was either blue or turquoise.

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I think it was blue because when we went back, we were thinking, what are you finding out where the gates were? I'm pretty sure we were at Blue Gate

00:12:13.440 - 00:12:18.980

when we got arrested. And it was one of these really big ones where you see the photos of like just loads of women all sitting there

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blocking the way in. And there was a guy with lots of, he just looked like some kind of general or some such shit in a car

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and we all were just singing and refusing to move. And then I can remember the policemen sort of galloping towards us.

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I remember this guy's got a tie flying or something. And then we just all went floppy and got arrested. And it felt good. I mean, you know,

00:12:40.980 - 00:12:47.120

stuck in the back of a van with lots of other people and one of them was a woman who'd put the superglue on her fingers and stuff.

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And ended up in a nick at Reading or Newbury, wherever it was. So were you arrested like a few times or just the once?

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Just the once. Just that one time. Just the one time, yeah. So what happened when,

00:13:03.420 - 00:13:09.020

actually, I want to ask this. Because you said something that was really interesting. It was like we decided to be arrested.

00:13:09.440 - 00:13:17.960

Yeah. And that just struck me as really, really funny. It's just like, we'll get arrested next time

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because everyone does. It's our turn next. Everyone's doing it. It's just that kind of decision

00:13:23.080 - 00:13:29.860

that I think is really funny. And you know, how were the police in handling you? Did you have to go limp?

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Yeah, just go limp, get dragged around. I mean, you know, some of the women used to get manhandled really quite badly.

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But I mean, we were lucky. It was a mass protest. All they did was stick us in the van and get rid of us, basically.

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And actually, that's another interesting thing because my day job, and I'm not acting, is tour guiding.

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And someone I know from tour guiding, she and her husband were police and they were on duty at Greenham. And I said,

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God, you must have hated us. And she said, No, we bloody loved you. The amount of overtime we got,

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we bought a house. It's just really interesting to look at it from the other side. Yeah.

00:14:01.920 - 00:14:10.360

It's so bizarre. So, going back to being arrested. Yeah. So, could you just talk a little bit

00:14:10.360 - 00:14:14.860

about that, what that was like for your experience? Yeah, it was really strange. I mean,

00:14:15.620 - 00:14:19.920

because there's so, so many of us getting dragged off, it just didn't feel as scary as it would have done

00:14:19.920 - 00:14:24.660

if there'd just been one or two of us. It'd be, oh, shit. But it was still quite alarming. But I just remember sitting,

00:14:24.660 - 00:14:29.360

I remember being dragged off, put in the van, sitting in the van with a lot of people

00:14:29.360 - 00:14:34.300

who'd done it several times before. So, you know, I was with my friend Christine and I think,

00:14:34.340 - 00:14:41.320

I think it was only me and Christine together and the other two were in a different van. And we got taken to the police station and processed.

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And then the thing is, after that you have to decide what you're going to do because you get a court date

00:14:46.000 - 00:14:52.020

and are you going to pay the fine or are you going to go to prison? And Christine and I decided we were going to go to prison

00:14:52.020 - 00:14:57.100

and the other two decided to pay the fine. So going to court, it was like, you know,

00:14:57.140 - 00:15:04.240

I'd arranged everything with my ex who was happy to look after the kids. We were pretty sure we'd get a week because that was the sort of standard amount.

00:15:04.420 - 00:15:12.800

So it's all kind of, you know, you have to plan for these things. So we both wrote impassioned speeches about why nuclear weapons

00:15:12.800 - 00:15:16.740

should not be on our soil, why we did what we did. And the magistrate, it was a woman,

00:15:17.560 - 00:15:22.680

and she clearly had just had to do this so many times. And she's like, oh, I'm really sorry.

00:15:22.680 - 00:15:28.120

You're going to have to go to prison for a week. That's just, whatever. So all of a sudden, it's like, oh shit,

00:15:28.280 - 00:15:35.300

that's interesting. And we spent the first 24 hours in a cell in the police station. I think it was Newbury.

00:15:36.480 - 00:15:42.040

I was in one and Christine was next door and they'd take everything away from you, everything out of your shoes and your belts and whatever.

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But still, Green and woman had managed to write on the walls. You know, we could bang on the wall and hear each other just about.

00:15:48.720 - 00:15:54.940

And then we were taken, I think at the end of that day, I don't think we spent the night there, taken that to Holloway.

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And that was, holy shit. I mean, that was just awful. I mean, in so many ways.

00:16:02.200 - 00:16:07.380

I mean, we were both a bit worried that the other woman in there would think we were idiots putting ourselves in there on purpose,

00:16:07.480 - 00:16:14.280

even though it's only going to be for a few days because they would have to let us out on Friday because otherwise it'd be over a weekend and we'd be going, you know.

00:16:15.060 - 00:16:24.420

So we knew we weren't going to be in there for very long. But it's just, just dreadful. The woman in there, who'd never, ever, ever have been in prison.

00:16:25.440 - 00:16:33.740

You know, the first day we were in this sort of holding cell with six people altogether. And one of them was a woman called Christine. I'll never forget that woman

00:16:33.740 - 00:16:42.700

because she was in there for cheque card fraud. Her husband's business had gone bankrupt and she'd done several thousand pounds of cheque card fraud because she was desperate and fucked up

00:16:42.700 - 00:16:52.260

and depressed and she had kids. And she was just a really lovely person who should never, ever, ever have been in that situation. I remember coming out

00:16:52.260 - 00:17:01.340

and there was an article about her in The Sun calling her evil and, you know, and there were scary people in there too. People who would normally be scary, but they weren't

00:17:01.340 - 00:17:06.820

because they'd go, Oh man, you're Greenham woman, welcome. That's so cool. Really, I mean, really nice.

00:17:06.840 - 00:17:12.160

So really welcoming. Really welcoming. Totally getting it, you know. Totally, totally getting it.

00:17:12.820 - 00:17:22.940

And there was one, I had a really strange time. There was one woman there who was in for GBH and half her hair had been sort of ripped out and she was the sort of person

00:17:22.940 - 00:17:28.040

that I would be really genuinely scared of if I met them in the street and she was bloody lovely. But she said to me,

00:17:28.560 - 00:17:33.840

she said, Oh, do you smoke dope? And I said, Oh, I used to. And she went, Yeah. And gave me a little bit of dope.

00:17:33.940 - 00:17:41.360

And I'm, Oh my God, I've got drugs in a prison. I'm never going to get out of here. And I put it under my pillow. Fuck, what do I do with that?

00:17:41.580 - 00:17:49.820

And then nothing happened for ages. So I ate it to get rid of it. And it was completely off my face. And then she said, Have you still got it?

00:17:49.880 - 00:17:56.480

And I went, Oh no, I ate it. And she rolled a joint. And I was kind of scared of her than I was of smoking a joint in prison.

00:17:57.240 - 00:18:04.880

I remember looking out the window, smoking, smoking dope. And then there were lots of, the green women would go outside the prison. They'd do things like let off balloons.

00:18:05.000 - 00:18:11.080

So there were all these helium balloons going off. It was all very odd. It was completely stoned out of my head watching these helium balloons

00:18:11.080 - 00:18:20.940

with this very scary woman. The green women were releasing balloons. Yeah, they'd go outside the prison. You could see them, yeah.

00:18:21.140 - 00:18:27.360

Because they knew there were lots of us in there, I guess. So that was lovely. But I mean, the whole process, when you get so dehumanising,

00:18:27.460 - 00:18:34.820

obviously they take you, just so dehumanising. And they would, I mean, I've heard it's a lot better in Holloway now.

00:18:35.060 - 00:18:41.400

Better, inverted commas. But they would always take you for processing. I think it was Seawing where the really scary people were kept.

00:18:41.460 - 00:18:48.480

So you'd hear people banging on the doors and screaming. And the doors are that thick and they're bulging. And just the whole thing

00:18:48.480 - 00:18:57.260

was just designed to intimidate you and really fuck you up before you even got anywhere. So the first day I was in that cell was six.

00:18:57.360 - 00:19:05.540

And then in that evening we got our cell for the rest of the week. And I was with two other women. And I was on the top bunk

00:19:05.540 - 00:19:14.180

and there was one over there. And the woman on the bunk underneath me, she'd just had surgery for her kidneys. Quite elderly, I thought at the time.

00:19:14.260 - 00:19:19.580

Black woman. And in the middle of the night she got really, really, really ill. And I was banging on the door

00:19:19.580 - 00:19:22.880

trying to get somewhere. I thought she was going to die. And the other woman was saying, oh, they're not going to come.

00:19:22.940 - 00:19:28.260

They're not going to come. There's no point. They don't give a shit. So I just kept on banging on this bloody door.

00:19:28.340 - 00:19:34.340

And eventually someone did come and she was taken away. And she was really ill. And it was all these women.

00:19:35.360 - 00:19:41.940

Why is she in there? Nobody in there apart from Scary Woman with half her hair missing have done anything violent.

00:19:43.140 - 00:19:52.340

A lot of it was desperation. I'm so glad I did it because it gave me a real insight into what women go through in there.

00:19:52.800 - 00:19:58.080

But I'll tell you what, getting out was amazing. It was high as a kite when we got out. Not literally.

00:19:58.740 - 00:20:09.600

No, no, no. That was just on that one day. So you went in on Monday and got out the Friday?

00:20:09.600 - 00:20:17.120

Yeah, that's about all it was. And I remember doing cartwheels down Holloway Road. They didn't let me and Christine out at the same time which was a shame

00:20:17.120 - 00:20:21.120

because I was standing outside the gate thinking, I wonder if she's coming out today and I just didn't know and I waited for a while

00:20:21.120 - 00:20:27.860

and I literally did cartwheels down the road. It was so amazing to be out. And then every time I go past that building it's just like, oh God.

00:20:29.000 - 00:20:38.140

There should never be anybody in there. It's just wrong. Really wrong. So because you said it was so amazing to get out

00:20:38.140 - 00:20:43.540

because I'm just now thinking about the women who kind of kept going back. Yeah, oh God, yeah. In and out.

00:20:44.360 - 00:20:47.600

I'm so sorry. I'm so brave. I doubt it was important. Let's just check.

00:20:48.320 - 00:20:55.260

Yeah, so brave. Yeah. That's okay. Some guy's looking for an older woman

00:20:55.260 - 00:21:02.960

to be in his paid videos. I'll get back to him later. Is it okay to put it on silent? Sorry?

00:21:03.160 - 00:21:11.080

Is it okay to put it on silent? Oh, no, it's fine. It's just a contact through Facebook. I can't remember what I was going to say now.

00:21:11.500 - 00:21:19.620

I was just thinking about, yeah, the women who were going back and forth. Well, and also it makes me think of the suffragettes who went through far worse than anyone from Greenham ever did.

00:21:19.720 - 00:21:28.060

I mean, being force fed and, you know, but it's part of that tradition and just the courage of those women to just keep going back and back and back.

00:21:29.220 - 00:21:41.500

And, you know, the passion, the commitment to doing it, you know, to living there, to all the inconvenience and cold and wet and damp. But then the sisterhood,

00:21:41.560 - 00:21:48.680

I know that sounds a bit hackneyed, but the sisterhood and that kind of thing of women together doing something. And then amazing things would happen.

00:21:48.820 - 00:21:57.260

Like we were at, I think we were at a different gate when this happened, but Peggy Seeger pitched up, you know, the folk singer. And she went to every gate and she'd written a song

00:21:57.260 - 00:22:03.540

about Greenham called Carry Greenham Home. And she came and sang it to us and taught it to us. So, yeah, Peggy Seeger came. I love that song.

00:22:03.600 - 00:22:09.420

It was amazing, yeah. I love Peggy Seeger. Oh, and to be there when she came and to meet her and to have her teach us her song.

00:22:09.620 - 00:22:13.780

And it's just amazing. What gate were you at then? Blue, mostly. Blue.

00:22:14.080 - 00:22:20.620

Yeah. So that was your kind of... That was our kind of where we would go because we knew some of the women there and it was, yeah.

00:22:21.000 - 00:22:30.940

What was the feeling at Blue Gate? If it had a personality, what would that be? It felt a lot more welcoming than some of the others. I mean, we kind of tried different ones,

00:22:31.040 - 00:22:42.340

you know, we'd go to different ones sometimes. It's just the one where we felt more at home, I think. It just felt welcoming. I think it was Yellow Gate that we felt a bit kind of like,

00:22:42.380 - 00:22:49.980

well, you're just like day trippers. And there was a bit of that, actually, because the women who lived there were a bit, oh, what the fuck are you doing here?

00:22:50.600 - 00:22:57.220

You know, we live here. And of course, if you went and stayed the night, either you were in your sleeping bag or you were in one of their tents or benders or whatever,

00:22:57.580 - 00:23:07.040

and they'd have to be wanting to welcome you in. And I think it was Yellow Gate where we felt a bit like, you know, we weren't proper greener women because we didn't live there.

00:23:08.000 - 00:23:15.180

But, I mean, that's fair enough, because they haven't been making massive sacrifices and whatever, you know. But, yeah, we just felt more at home at Blue.

00:23:16.540 - 00:23:21.300

It was amazing to see. And that's the one where they've still got the gate there when we went back. Oh, right.

00:23:21.500 - 00:23:29.740

Yeah, yeah. I'll show you some pictures of it. So they've still got the posts and the gate and there's people written on it in blue.

00:23:30.460 - 00:23:36.160

Oh, wow. Yeah, that was really nice to see. So when did you go back, sorry? Last year.

00:23:36.240 - 00:23:44.940

It was last year. Yeah, I think August, September time. How does it compare to what it was like back then? Oh, my God, you would never recognise it.

00:23:45.080 - 00:23:54.940

I mean, just to see, I mean, yeah, this land that was militarised, that had guys in khaki with guns patrolling the fence and we knew there were nuclear missiles in there.

00:23:55.060 - 00:24:05.020

And now it's just this beautiful, open, common land, you know. And there are people walking their dogs and just, you know, just hummocks of heather or whatever. I don't know, it's just beautiful.

00:24:06.000 - 00:24:15.120

And you can see the silos off on the right-hand side and whereas they would have had weapons, some of the car storage showrooms apparently for, like, local car dealerships.

00:24:15.200 - 00:24:23.620

It's like, yeah, you know, it's amazing. It felt really, really lovely. And there were cows. And it's like, yeah, we did it, you know.

00:24:23.720 - 00:24:27.780

Yeah. We did it. And I know people say, oh, they were going to take them away anyway.

00:24:28.100 - 00:24:37.740

Well, I don't think they were. I think if there hadn't been so much protest, and particularly the woman who lived there all the time, you know, the determination,

00:24:38.060 - 00:24:46.620

it was just more hassle than it was worth. I don't think they would have got rid of them anyway. Certainly not as soon. So I think the Peace Camp had a massive impact.

00:24:46.740 - 00:24:55.060

I think it had a massive impact on our understanding of the fact that as women we can do stuff like that. Hi, Mark. Hello there.

00:24:55.060 - 00:24:57.060

Hi. This is Alice. Hi. Mark.

00:24:58.440 - 00:25:06.020

Yeah, I think we all gained a real understanding that as women we have a strength, and we can do stuff. And I started doing things like,

00:25:06.880 - 00:25:14.900

I remember there was an armstooler's conference. Oh, God, how can anyone be an armstooler? On Piccadilly. Right, OK.

00:25:14.920 - 00:25:23.540

And loads of us went, and we were still on the other side of the road, and there were these wealthy men going in there. And we were just standing there singing.

00:25:23.540 - 00:25:33.920

I remember at one time, like, running through like a banshee and just shrieking. And, oh, God, just feeling so angry. How dare you?

00:25:34.000 - 00:25:44.440

How fucking dare you, you know? You know, our country's the second biggest armstooler in the world now. I just don't get it in any way, shape, or form.

00:25:45.320 - 00:25:52.120

And it does, you know, there is an anger there too. I mean, at Greenham, that anger was very much channeled into doing and being creative.

00:25:52.120 - 00:25:59.080

But I remember one day, walking along by the fence through the woods. It was beautiful. It was a really lovely little woodland walk.

00:25:59.620 - 00:26:05.120

And you could see the fence, and this kind of warplane went overhead, and I just fell on my knees, and I was just screaming,

00:26:07.740 - 00:26:14.000

because why? You know? Yeah. It was just a nonsense, the whole thing.

00:26:14.640 - 00:26:20.640

Really, the whole thing. But there we go. You said that that was channeled into creativity at Greenham as well.

00:26:20.740 - 00:26:26.260

Yeah. And I know a lot of the actions, as you said, you know, dressing up, and the kind of irony of the situation

00:26:26.260 - 00:26:38.200

was definitely used as well. But, yeah. Being from, like, a theatre background, why do you think that something like Greenham

00:26:39.160 - 00:26:51.380

kind of encouraged so much creativity? Well, that's a really interesting question. I think it's partly the women who were there, some of them were from creative backgrounds,

00:26:51.960 - 00:27:00.020

and one of the women that we used to travel down with quite often was a writer, and I assume there were probably women who were actors and artists

00:27:00.020 - 00:27:08.600

and whatever there as well. Yeah, that is actually really good. I think that something happens when you get a group of women together

00:27:08.600 - 00:27:15.700

for a political end that's important to them, because if you look at the creativity in the placards of the anti-Trump protest,

00:27:16.980 - 00:27:25.740

hear these pussies roar! You know, all that stuff comes out, and when one or two people start it, it encourages other people to do it,

00:27:26.020 - 00:27:33.720

and it spreads. And I just think creativity is a really powerful force. I mean, if you go and see an amazing play or an incredible film,

00:27:34.460 - 00:27:42.380

it can change the way you think about the world. If you see an amazing picture, you read a book that moves you in some way. All that stuff can help change the world,

00:27:42.380 - 00:27:49.660

and I think... This is probably bollocks, but I just kind of tend to think that women are more likely

00:27:49.660 - 00:27:56.300

to be influenced like that, because we have a more... I don't know. That's not right.

00:27:56.340 - 00:27:59.840

I was going to say open. That's not right at all, because I know some women who are completely closed and channeled,

00:27:59.900 - 00:28:09.580

but I think we do tend to respond more on an emotional level that is not cut off from the intellectual understanding.

00:28:10.100 - 00:28:17.000

I think sometimes... I really hate this generalisation. It isn't right to generalise, but I do think there's something in this

00:28:17.000 - 00:28:23.760

that on the whole, men, they have an intellectual level, and their emotions are not necessarily connected, while I think ours are more connected.

00:28:24.400 - 00:28:29.960

And I have no idea if that's bollocks or not. I don't know. But it feels like that. Yeah.

00:28:30.500 - 00:28:38.100

It feels like that. And it felt like that then. Yeah, it really did, because so much of what we did was creative.

00:28:39.080 - 00:28:44.800

I mean, The Witches was my biggest one, because I just thought that was fabulous. Who has these ideas? We never knew who had the idea

00:28:44.800 - 00:28:49.460

for doing these things, but someone had the idea, so we all did it. You know, in the dye-in,

00:28:49.560 - 00:28:56.240

someone managed to get tickets, and we went in and did that. And again, even though that's been done before, it was still a creative thing to do.

00:28:56.420 - 00:29:00.780

The woman who went in and did Teddy Bear's picnic on top of the bunker, you know, that was fabulous.

00:29:02.060 - 00:29:08.880

So it's like, you know, daring to do something a bit different, daring to use creativity to make a point, and also because it's nurturing for you,

00:29:09.400 - 00:29:15.100

because if you're doing an action that has a creativity inherent in it, it's, you know, you enjoy it as well. Yeah.

00:29:15.240 - 00:29:22.860

So you've got, you know, you might have the fear of getting arrested or something or whatever, but you have more courage

00:29:22.860 - 00:29:27.080

because it's creative and it's fun. Yeah. You know, and singing to the soldiers and being a witch

00:29:27.080 - 00:29:31.560

and bouncing up and down on the fence was fun. Yeah. It was brilliant fun.

00:29:31.620 - 00:29:37.360

It was wonderful. And it just strikes me as kind of the opposite of destroying, you know, is creativity,

00:29:37.740 - 00:29:43.360

so it's that. Yeah, it's making. Yeah, making something out of this, you know,

00:29:43.460 - 00:29:47.980

horrible thing that's come and invaded that land of yours and you're going, fabulous.

00:29:47.980 - 00:29:52.280

Yeah, so you're combating something that's really, oh, sorry, darling, something that's really kind of

00:29:52.280 - 00:29:56.400

like that, by going, you know, going round

00:29:56.400 - 00:30:04.480

by creating something that combats it in a non-confrontational way, if that makes sense. No, absolutely.

00:30:04.920 - 00:30:12.680

Absolutely. I was wondering what it feels like today to talk about your experiences at Greenland.

00:30:13.580 - 00:30:18.940

It's lovely, actually, because, you know, a lot of people don't know about it and I think people should know about it

00:30:19.980 - 00:30:29.740

because it's part of the women's movement, it's part of the peace movement and it's part of our history, actually, and it's not necessarily known.

00:30:30.860 - 00:30:36.740

I'm always quite shocked when people have never heard of it at all because I just kind of, I sort of assume that people do know about it,

00:30:36.740 - 00:30:39.940

but, you know, clearly they don't and it was something that, I mean,

00:30:40.000 - 00:30:48.680

I really learnt a lot about me and what I'm prepared to do. You know, would I go to prison again

00:30:48.680 - 00:30:53.740

for something I care passionately about? Yeah, I probably would. I don't know what that would be quite. Brexit springs to mind!

00:30:55.060 - 00:31:02.440

That's not right there. Help the population. Yeah, lock us all up, you bastards. But, yeah,

00:31:02.780 - 00:31:11.400

about how far you're prepared to go and just about using creativity to make change in the world. I think that's important.

00:31:13.880 - 00:31:18.740

And it's just nice to talk to a young woman about it who, you know, you weren't around then and it's like, you know,

00:31:18.800 - 00:31:26.040

it's passing on that heritage. My daughter is a campaigner at Amnesty International and I'm so proud of the fact that she's gone down this route

00:31:26.040 - 00:31:31.240

and she cares passionately about all the things that I passionately care about. So it's also, you know,

00:31:31.260 - 00:31:38.880

going down the generations. Yeah. And it's just nice to remember. They're really nice memories for me.

00:31:38.940 - 00:31:43.020

They're really nice memories. I mean, you know, obviously being in prison wasn't the best memory in the world

00:31:43.020 - 00:31:50.020

but, I mean, I'm really pleased that I did it. And I kind of think that when you're 14 you should get bunged up in there for a day and the crime would drop.

00:31:51.240 - 00:31:57.160

Because you realise if you do that you're going to end up living like that. Oh my God, no, I'm not going to do that.

00:31:57.740 - 00:32:05.860

I don't know. No. Well, I was going to ask you a question because we've got one question

00:32:05.860 - 00:32:12.980

that we're supposed to be asking everyone just to get that kind of nice uniformity. But you've kind of answered it because it's, could you explain

00:32:12.980 - 00:32:18.940

why you think it's important that Greenham is remembered by subsequent generations? Yeah, because it gives us the power

00:32:18.940 - 00:32:25.460

to know that we can change things and that you don't have to just confront violence with violence. You can confront the threat of violence

00:32:25.460 - 00:32:33.200

with creativity and passion and love and I felt so much love for those other women I was doing these things with.

00:32:33.660 - 00:32:40.380

When Peggy Seeger came it was amazing the love she was giving to us. Love through music.

00:32:41.400 - 00:32:45.800

Love through dressing up as a bunch of witches and doing daft things like bouncing on a fence.

00:32:46.680 - 00:32:53.620

I think that's the legacy is that you can confront evil because I do seriously believe that nuclear weapons are evil

00:32:53.620 - 00:32:58.440

with love. That sounds a bit trite but that's fine. That's kind of how it is.

00:32:58.700 - 00:33:04.480

Yeah. That's nice. I just wondered, I don't know,

00:33:04.640 - 00:33:09.000

I mean we've talked about so much and I feel like you could I feel like you could talk about Greenham obviously

00:33:09.000 - 00:33:16.260

for hours and days and days and years probably. But is there a kind of defining moment for you

00:33:16.260 - 00:33:21.580

or a best memory that you have of being there? I think the best one was definitely the witches.

00:33:21.860 - 00:33:26.940

Yeah. That's sticking in my mind as well. It totally sticks in my mind because it was just hilarious

00:33:26.940 - 00:33:30.160

and really, just seeing these poor little lads with their guns just being like,

00:33:30.160 - 00:33:36.300

what do we do? Was there a part of you though that thought, okay,

00:33:37.000 - 00:33:41.720

I could maybe get shot or was the whole thing just you? No. I mean it is weird

00:33:41.720 - 00:33:46.920

seeing people with guns. When we see policemen with guns in central London I find it really bloody weird.

00:33:47.140 - 00:33:50.940

Me too. It's supposed to make us feel safe but it doesn't make me feel safe. And certainly the sight

00:33:50.940 - 00:33:55.460

of all these young guys with weapons who might just have thought we were going to,

00:33:55.740 - 00:33:59.760

I don't know, run in and do what? Go woo at them? Yeah.

00:34:00.740 - 00:34:05.040

I've just got this brilliant image. Sing at them. Yeah, you all just hiding in the woods.

00:34:05.240 - 00:34:11.840

That would be scary enough for me. I think that's hilarious. Also, I kind of think it's important

00:34:11.840 - 00:34:15.780

that we did witches because witches were women who were persecuted for being herbalists

00:34:15.780 - 00:34:19.940

and midwives and whatever. So making it about witches was also, you know,

00:34:20.120 - 00:34:23.600

who are the witches? Where do they come from? Maybe your great-great-grandmother was one.

00:34:24.040 - 00:34:28.900

Yeah. You know, it's kind of important also. So,

00:34:29.060 - 00:34:38.460

because obviously, I'm just saying hello to your cats. When you kind of go back and forth, what were the conversations like

00:34:38.460 - 00:34:41.720

when you were having conversations with people who, you know, didn't,

00:34:41.940 - 00:34:44.780

haven't seen Greenham for themselves and they were just, you know,

00:34:44.820 - 00:34:49.740

maybe reading the news or seeing the news about Greenham. Like, were there any conversations

00:34:49.740 - 00:34:55.560

you had with people that were of interest? I can't think of anything in particular

00:34:55.560 - 00:34:59.920

because everyone I just knew was just really incredibly supportive. I mean, there was nobody,

00:35:00.520 - 00:35:05.040

because, you know, I was living in this little bubble of working in a women's centre and a community centre

00:35:05.040 - 00:35:08.020

in an area where, I mean, it'd be like doing it in Walthamstow today.

00:35:08.100 - 00:35:10.640

I mean, just pretty much like, you know, 90% of the population

00:35:10.640 - 00:35:14.780

would be totally on your side. So I was living in my little activist bubble, I suppose.

00:35:14.940 - 00:35:17.800

Sure. So you were almost in a kind of Greenham bubble even when you

00:35:17.800 - 00:35:21.500

were not in Greenham. Yeah, because everyone just was behind it.

00:35:22.280 - 00:35:25.800

And, you know, some, I'm just trying to think. I can't think of any

00:35:25.800 - 00:35:30.320

particular conversations. I just, yeah, I mean, rather than conversations,

00:35:30.400 - 00:35:35.220

I just wondered if there was kind of a feeling when you left or, you know,

00:35:35.240 - 00:35:38.860

you've kind of answered it that you were still kind of living, almost living in Greenham.

00:35:39.360 - 00:35:42.240

Yeah, yeah, that's true. Even after I stopped going

00:35:42.240 - 00:35:44.960

because, I mean, you know, my marriage broke up and I had to learn,

00:35:45.080 - 00:35:47.380

you know, earn a living and look after children and couldn't really

00:35:47.380 - 00:35:51.540

do it anymore. But it was still very much sort of in my heart

00:35:51.540 - 00:35:56.340

and in my mind and that didn't stop. Yeah. And I don't think it does

00:35:56.340 - 00:35:59.860

when you've been involved in something like that. You know, like people who were

00:35:59.860 - 00:36:02.700

at Woodstock or, you know, whatever, it's sort of,

00:36:02.780 - 00:36:08.080

it's part of you. Yeah. I was at the first ever Glastonbury

00:36:08.080 - 00:36:10.720

when I was part of me as well. Were you? Completely nothing to do with protest,

00:36:10.900 - 00:36:14.800

but I mean, it was a big thing for me. You were a major. Yeah, I was 16.

00:36:15.180 - 00:36:18.400

That must have been amazing. I helped build the first pyramid stage. Wow.

00:36:18.960 - 00:36:22.440

Yeah. But so things, things that you do like that that are important

00:36:22.440 - 00:36:25.060

that stay with you, they're just, they are just part of you. Yeah.

00:36:25.700 - 00:36:30.100

And, yeah. Did you, um, know when you first

00:36:30.800 - 00:36:36.240

went that it would be such a big part of you? No, not a clue. And when we went down

00:36:36.240 - 00:36:39.440

to the Embrace the Base, we were going down for a day. Oh, wow.

00:36:39.540 - 00:36:42.580

That's what we were doing. But then when you do that and you have that amazing experience,

00:36:42.740 - 00:36:45.300

it's like, oh my God. Yeah. You know,

00:36:45.420 - 00:36:51.520

there's, we need to go back here. Yeah. Did you meet many people

00:36:51.520 - 00:36:54.780

that were, um, that you saw changes in? I don't know,

00:36:54.840 - 00:37:00.960

at Greenham or, was there anyone there that you remember meeting there?

00:37:01.660 - 00:37:07.180

I remember meeting a, a woman who was in her 70s

00:37:07.180 - 00:37:09.240

or, I don't know how old she was, but she was really elderly

00:37:09.240 - 00:37:14.100

on the Embrace the Base and chatting to her. And being so amazingly impressed

00:37:14.100 - 00:37:18.060

that somebody who was clearly elderly had, had bothered to be there

00:37:18.060 - 00:37:20.780

and cared. And, I don't remember what we talked about,

00:37:20.840 - 00:37:24.000

but I, I kind of really remember talking to her and just thinking,

00:37:24.160 - 00:37:28.120

that's brilliant. That's amazing. Um, yeah.

00:37:29.240 - 00:37:33.400

Nothing I can particularly think of. It's just, it always strikes me

00:37:33.400 - 00:37:35.860

as amazing all these women who maybe never would have met,

00:37:35.940 - 00:37:38.440

you know, together for a common goal. Yeah. Yes.

00:37:39.000 - 00:37:41.600

And, all sorts of women, all sorts of women. Gay,

00:37:41.880 - 00:37:44.820

straight, you know, old, young, with kids,

00:37:44.920 - 00:37:47.580

without kids, with, yeah, not un,

00:37:48.820 - 00:37:52.680

I don't know, people involved in activism, people not normally involved in activism,

00:37:53.660 - 00:37:56.960

just, yeah, it was a wonderful kind of melting point

00:37:56.960 - 00:38:00.460

of, of people. Women, it was lovely.

00:38:02.480 - 00:38:06.640

Um, I wanted to ask you about revisiting

00:38:06.640 - 00:38:11.740

Greenham just a little bit more. because you mentioned that

00:38:11.740 - 00:38:15.800

there was a peace garden that's there now. Yeah,

00:38:15.860 - 00:38:18.180

it's really lovely. I mean, we kind of knew there was one,

00:38:18.220 - 00:38:20.720

but we had no clue where it was. It's quite interesting trying to find it,

00:38:20.760 - 00:38:24.600

but it's really beautiful because they've got, it's just, it's lovely because

00:38:24.600 - 00:38:27.960

there's like little groves of trees and there's some information about the

00:38:27.960 - 00:38:32.080

peace camp on the way in. Oh, there is,

00:38:32.080 - 00:38:34.940

there's an information board on the way in. Which is lovely. Just,

00:38:35.080 - 00:38:38.060

you know, talking about it a bit, but the thing that, I think my favourite thing

00:38:38.060 - 00:38:42.340

was the spiral with You Can't Kill the Spirit because that really was the Greenham song,

00:38:42.420 - 00:38:46.180

You Can't Kill the Spirit. She's like a mountain, old and strong. She goes on and on and on.

00:38:46.360 - 00:38:49.120

I don't know if you guys have got a copy of the Greenham song book. Yeah,

00:38:49.420 - 00:38:53.120

yeah, we've, we've been researching and we spent a day

00:38:53.120 - 00:38:56.720

in everyone's library and we, there are a lot of really great archives there,

00:38:56.720 - 00:39:01.020

like song books, photos, diaries, it's,

00:39:01.120 - 00:39:04.720

yeah, it was really cool. And then we watched the film together as well,

00:39:04.820 - 00:39:08.020

Carrie Greenham Home, and there's a lot of songs. That song's, yeah,

00:39:08.160 - 00:39:10.480

in it as well. Yeah, but it was just so nice to go back and,

00:39:10.480 - 00:39:13.800

and just to see, you know, that someone valued what we'd done enough

00:39:13.800 - 00:39:16.940

to build this beautiful garden and, and it was right there,

00:39:17.320 - 00:39:21.860

not far from the, from the place where we were. Yeah. How does it compare now

00:39:21.860 - 00:39:27.940

with, with back then, I guess, how Greenham was seen?

00:39:28.340 - 00:39:32.980

Are we aware of that? Well, it's just a lovely place where people walk their dogs now

00:39:32.980 - 00:39:36.000

and it's just a lovely place you can take your kids to play and, you know,

00:39:36.060 - 00:39:40.460

there's no, no weapons, it's just, it's just a beautiful area

00:39:40.460 - 00:39:45.640

of common land. And there's a cafe, I think, which we didn't actually get to,

00:39:46.360 - 00:39:50.940

which we'd allowed a bit more time. But you're with people who you were at Greenham with?

00:39:50.940 - 00:39:55.100

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. My friend Christine

00:39:55.100 - 00:39:59.920

and Mary, I think when we, when we were going to Greenham and Mary was in her late 50s,

00:40:00.000 - 00:40:03.240

which I thought was really old then. Yeah. Really, now it's like,

00:40:03.280 - 00:40:05.180

hey, that's quite young. And now she's, you know,

00:40:05.180 - 00:40:10.460

she's really getting on now. So she doesn't walk very far so it's lovely that she came back. And another woman

00:40:10.460 - 00:40:15.400

who I didn't know as well but we used to go, used to travel with sometimes and it was just so nice,

00:40:15.440 - 00:40:19.100

so nice to be there and to see the remains of Bluegate and,

00:40:19.100 - 00:40:23.640

I remember we were standing and I said, so when were you arrested? And they came,

00:40:23.700 - 00:40:25.440

oh, that was what it was. Yeah, just like going,

00:40:25.500 - 00:40:29.600

going through it all in our heads and we had a picnic, it was lovely. Picnic?

00:40:29.740 - 00:40:34.100

Yeah. Not dressed up as, Not dressed up as witches, no, no.

00:40:36.300 - 00:40:41.120

Normal picnic. Non-protest picnic. It's such a, I mean,

00:40:41.160 - 00:40:44.700

it's, it's nice to, I think, revisit things in your mind as well

00:40:44.700 - 00:40:48.420

but physically it's, Yeah, it was so nice. And we said we'd go again actually

00:40:48.420 - 00:40:51.260

when we wanted to go to Greenham and get back again because it was just a really, really nice experience

00:40:51.260 - 00:40:58.760

so we might get back this year. Yeah. Yeah. I had something in my mind

00:40:58.760 - 00:41:07.000

that I was going to ask you then and I've completely forgotten what it was. What did you think of anything else? Just phone me or,

00:41:07.000 - 00:41:10.200

or whatever. Oh, I was, I was going to ask you,

00:41:10.480 - 00:41:19.060

did you have any kind of, experiences with the media at the time when you were at Greenham? Not at the time,

00:41:19.060 - 00:41:23.520

I mean, there was a picture in the Guardian of some of us cutting down the fence when we were witches

00:41:23.520 - 00:41:27.940

but I didn't, I don't think I even realised anyone was taking pictures. Um,

00:41:27.980 - 00:41:31.920

no. Actually, that's not quite true because we did get in the local paper,

00:41:32.080 - 00:41:36.800

the Paddington Times, there's a picture, the picture I've been searching for today and can't find

00:41:36.800 - 00:41:40.840

are the four of us with a banner saying Paddington Greenham woman that someone made for us

00:41:40.840 - 00:41:47.040

and there was a little article about us in the Paddington Times which was nice. So what was the Paddington Greenham woman?

00:41:47.800 - 00:41:50.800

It was just a, well, we were, the area we lived in

00:41:50.800 - 00:41:53.900

was technically called North Paddington but you'd probably think it was made of ale

00:41:53.900 - 00:41:59.340

but not the posh end. The bit where the councillor stays. And, we just,

00:41:59.440 - 00:42:05.040

we all happened to come from there and some of us worked at North Paddington Women's Centre so that was the connection.

00:42:05.160 - 00:42:08.740

So it was just kind of you representing that area That area, yeah.

00:42:09.000 - 00:42:13.620

And trying to encourage local women to come and be involved as well because it was a,

00:42:13.760 - 00:42:17.060

you know, I think if you, doing things locally is really nice

00:42:17.060 - 00:42:22.220

because you can build a local base for something. It's one of the things that works well in Walthamstow.

00:42:22.380 - 00:42:25.260

I mean, I'm thinking arts rather than politics now but it's a very

00:42:25.260 - 00:42:31.420

kind of local place. I run a Facebook group called Walthamstow Photography and I've got over 300 members

00:42:31.420 - 00:42:35.040

and it's all people who live locally so we do photos together and stuff.

00:42:35.440 - 00:42:38.360

So, I think that works with activism too. Yeah.

00:42:38.680 - 00:42:43.480

Building a local base. How do you think, um, going back,

00:42:43.640 - 00:42:47.500

that social media thing because obviously I'm thinking of Greenham but I'm thinking of

00:42:47.500 - 00:42:50.420

like the women's marches and how they were organised you know, all on like Facebook

00:42:50.420 - 00:42:54.940

and things like that and I'm kind of imagining being at a time where there are no phones

00:42:54.940 - 00:42:59.840

or they're, I'm trying to. You didn't have, there were no mobile phones,

00:42:59.920 - 00:43:04.640

there was no social media so how the hell did 30,000 women end up going to Greenham

00:43:04.640 - 00:43:07.860

that day? I have no idea. Yeah, that's what I was

00:43:07.860 - 00:43:12.920

thinking. I really don't know how that happened. Because it's amazing

00:43:12.920 - 00:43:15.200

to, I mean, you know, for people who've grown up

00:43:15.200 - 00:43:18.760

with mobile phones and social media it must be such a weird idea

00:43:18.760 - 00:43:22.020

that you can do anything in the world without it. Yeah. Yeah.

00:43:22.140 - 00:43:26.320

Because now it's just, you know, it's how you do stuff. But I don't know

00:43:26.320 - 00:43:28.860

how they did that. No. It's just those large scale things

00:43:28.860 - 00:43:33.520

that I find so deeply impressive. Yeah. Yeah.

00:43:33.720 - 00:43:37.300

To comprehend how that. Yeah. Sort of networks of women's centres

00:43:37.300 - 00:43:41.460

and you know, rape crisis centres and whatever and everyone just

00:43:41.460 - 00:43:44.260

phoning everybody else. Yeah, so it's just. But I don't know

00:43:44.260 - 00:43:47.180

how that happened. Yeah. It was extraordinary. Actually,

00:43:47.180 - 00:43:51.820

Christine might know. I think she was, she was the one who kind of,

00:43:52.240 - 00:43:54.420

I think, I've come right, I think Christine was the one

00:43:54.420 - 00:43:57.840

who got the North Paddington women's group together. I'm not sure, I'll chat to her.

00:43:58.180 - 00:44:00.400

She's in Norfolk at the minute but I'll ask her. Yeah.

00:44:00.620 - 00:44:03.000

And she might have some interesting stuff to say. Yeah.

00:44:03.260 - 00:44:07.100

It's just an amazing level of connection. Yeah. Yeah, totally.

00:44:08.220 - 00:44:10.200

Yeah. And it just took, didn't it? It was like

00:44:10.200 - 00:44:14.520

one of those things that the moment is right for that thing and it just,

00:44:15.040 - 00:44:16.740

and it just took. Yeah.