00:00:00.000 - 00:00:28.940

So, I guess the important thing about the project is, why do you think it is important that we remember Greenham for subsequent generations, or anyone really? I think it was a very powerful and successful protest, and I think it's been much overlooked. It's almost like it's old news now. But I think the people who've cast it aside as old

00:00:28.940 - 00:00:59.860

news don't realise how very significant it was. A few years ago, just before he died, I went to one of those evenings with Tony Benn, and I wouldn't normally go to those sort of things, but he was my absolute hero. And it was just here at the local theatre in Taunton, and he was interviewed by somebody about his

00:00:59.860 - 00:01:35.760

life and everything that he'd done. And then the second half was a Q&A, and I put my hand up and said, how influential do you think the Greenham women were in ridding Greenham Common of nuclear weapons? And he kind of hedged a bit, and he said, were you at Greenham, my dear? And I said, yes, I was. And he said, and did you serve time at Her Majesty's Pleasure?

00:01:35.900 - 00:02:04.540

And I said, yes, I did. And there was kind of thunderous applause around the auditorium, which was really very embarrassing. And then he said, I think the Greenham women were very, very influential, and that their protests and their actions were very creative and kept the issue in the public awareness, and how they persevered, how they persisted in their protest,

00:02:04.880 - 00:02:39.340

and until 1987 when the bombs went away. So I do feel it was very significant, and I was a bit shocked. A couple of years ago, I went to an exhibition at the Imperial War Museum. I thought I'd never set foot in a place like that, but they had an exhibition about protest, peace protests, and it was a very well curated exhibition, except I thought the section on Greenham was woefully

00:02:39.340 - 00:03:08.660

inadequate, just very, very token. And so when I heard that Greenham women everywhere were going to put together this archive, I thought, good, good. Why do you think there was such a sort of lack of information about Greenham? At the time or since? I mean, at the Imperial War Museum, do you think there's a reason that they didn't cover it more fully? I don't know. I have my

00:03:08.660 - 00:03:45.140

own cynical suspicions, like that it was probably curated mainly by men. And yes, I mean, it focused on protests throughout the ages, and some of them I knew nothing about and was very interested to hear about, but the section on Greenham was just very small, and they obviously thought they were being very clever, because they put up a piece of fence as a sort of room divider in the section

00:03:45.140 - 00:04:14.920

of the museum. But it was inaccurate, it was the wrong kind of wire, and it just felt very token, and a few little ribbons attached to it and things. And when I think of the extent of the protest, and the creativity of the actions, it just didn't represent it really. It was just a complete lack of consciousness that it was so significant. And what got you involved in Greenham in the first

00:04:14.920 - 00:04:52.980

place? Well, we're talking 1982, and I had just come out rather late as a lesbian, and wanting to surround myself with books and music, and everything to do with women loving women, and various other women's issues. And I went to a bookshop, I lived in London at that time, and I went to a bookshop called Silver Moon, and I saw a poster on the wall saying, come and embrace the

00:04:52.980 - 00:05:25.640

bass. And I'm ashamed to say I didn't know anything about Greenham at that time, although the women had been there for at least a year. And so I went to embrace the bass. A lot of my friends were going, and they were going with groups on coaches and things, which I wanted to do, but my then first girlfriend didn't want to go on a coach, and wanted to go separately. And so we

00:05:25.640 - 00:05:59.740

arrived at Greenham on that, I think it was a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, freezing cold. And once we got there, we didn't know where the fence was, or the gates were, and every policeman we asked the way was singularly unhelpful. So it took us quite a long time to get to the fence and the gate. And I was constantly looking out for my other friends, which annoyed my girlfriend. And I

00:05:59.740 - 00:06:32.040

just, I felt I'd found my tribe. You know, this was my cause, and this was my tribe, and I felt so involved. And she was so anti, and just couldn't cope with the crowds and whatever. I mean, it was a very, very big demonstration. And I think the press reports of 30,000 women are probably woefully short of the mark. But it was so exciting to be part of that action, where we did link arms around

00:06:32.040 - 00:06:59.280

the fence, and we made the whole nine-mile perimeter. And that moment when the camp women who'd organized it were communicating on walkie-talkies, and you know, they obviously got to the point where, yeah, we're joined up here, we're joined up here, we're joined up here. And then there was this great whoop of celebration. And my girlfriend then said, right, we can go home now,

00:06:59.280 - 00:07:23.320

can't we? And I said, no, no, I want to stay, I want to stay. And you know, people were lighting little fires by the fence, and putting out candles and things, and singing songs. And I so much wanted to be part of it. But I got torn away by her. And on the journey home, I said, I'm going to become more involved. I'm going to find a local group and get to Greenham as often as I can. And

00:07:23.320 - 00:07:46.760

she said, well, it's going to be Greenham or me. So I chose Greenham. And that was, that was the beginning of it. I mean, this was just a very first tentative relationship. But once I got to Greenham, I fell in love every five minutes, you know, because it was very much, well, a women's space and largely lesbian space.

00:07:46.940 - 00:09:04.820

Yeah. So your experience was that it was largely lesbian? Yes. As far as I know, I mean, how, how do you know? But once I got back to London, I did join up with a local group. I was living in Camden. And the group was called, initially, Camden Women Against Cruse. And we later became Camden Greenham Women. And we used to meet weekly and plan trips to Greenham and find out ways that we could support. There was also a London Greenham office. And I used to go to meetings there where they sort of coordinated the local groups and gave us information about the actions and things. And from that point, I was there almost every weekend and a lot of holidays too. I was teaching, so I had long holidays. I had a slight bit of a dichotomy really, because I saw myself as a career teacher and I was working towards headship. I was a deputy head at that time and a bit of a conflict that if I got into trouble, you know, that would

00:09:05.340 - 00:10:19.860

threaten my career. But it, it didn't really at any time until I went to prison. But I know I was involved in quite a lot of the big actions. Do you want me to talk about those? I would love to hear about them. Okay. Well, one of them, which was just a very gentle action, but I, I really, really threw myself into it. I think it was June. I'd first gone to Greenham in December 82. The women had been there a year. And in June 83, they held a dragon festival. And we were invited through our groups to each woman to produce a metre square piece of fabric on which they'd written or painted or stuck things on or whatever to represent their feelings about the peace protest. And then at the dragon festival, we met, I don't know, at Greenham, it always seemed to be either pissing with rain, freezing cold,

00:10:19.860 - 00:12:08.960

or blisteringly hot. And this was a blistering hot weekend. And we all sat around in the sun and got badly burnt and stitched together our bits of dragon. This was to be the Greenham dragon. And then I sort of aligned myself to Orange Gate. And the Orange Gate people then joined up with the next gate and so on. And by the evening, we had a nine mile length of fabric. Isn't that just unbelievable? And it had come from all over the world. I mean, some women had come from other countries to deliver. Some people had sent them or got them there somehow, but there was a nine mile length of fabric. And so we danced all around the base with this dragon. And of course, it was very, very visual. So there was quite a lot of photographic evidence of that afterwards. So that was just a very, very gentle action. Um, what other actions do I remember? I remember something called the bus action. I don't know if you've heard anything about that. Well, a couple of women from Orange Gate who I'll just need to say a little bit about. I mean, there were the camp women who lived there, who'd given up their homes, who'd left their families and their husbands and the children, whatever. Somebody once said, men leave home for war, and we've left home for peace. And it was evident to me that they had thrown themselves wholeheartedly into the project and given up a lot and were living in horrible conditions.

00:12:08.960 - 00:13:26.780

And we're treated very badly by the MOD, the local vigilantes, the squaddies and so on. And then there was us, the visitors. Now, I kind of battled against that distinction for a long, long time. And I remember Rebecca Johnson, who was a camp woman and very vocal and very active. I remember having a conversation with her where she said, there is this thing like a hierarchy of sacrifice. And she said, and I really don't want it to be like that, because everybody, every woman does what she can. And so that I felt that very validating, because again, I had this conflict, you know, shall I go ahead and become the head teacher that I want to be? Or do I give it all up and come and live in the mud? Anyway, there were two women who, like me, were visitors. And one of them was in the motor trade. And she, no, you get away from those, please. Sorry, that's on your tape now. A cat trying to eat the biscuits. Cats are allowed into our interviews, that's fine.

00:13:29.280 - 00:13:59.680

Anyway, anyway, no, Molly, you're not having the biscuits. She was in the motor trade, and she had access to the biggest bunch of keys you've ever seen, which would open and start any motorised vehicle. Sounds amazing. So she brought these along. And the action that was planned was that we would go into the base at the dead of night. And she would steal a bus.

00:13:59.960 - 00:14:47.140

It's like a superpower being able to open and start any vehicle. She would steal a bus, and we would meet at some point and climb on the bus. And I'm not quite sure what was planned after that. But we were certainly going to drive around the base shouting, look, we're here, you can't keep us out, that sort of thing. And so we were all in sort of little cells, groups of people that were going to meet the bus at certain places. Anyway, I missed the bus, which was terrible. I got terribly, terribly lost with a bunch of women. And it was very funny and very frightening because I'm extremely frightened of dogs.

00:14:47.140 - 00:15:34.780

And of course, the big police dogs were horrendous. So we're sort of creeping through the undergrowth, trying to find our bus stop. And, you know, we knew that there were MOD police around with torches and dogs and things. It was very, very scary. But anyway, I missed the bus. So I wasn't actually part of the action in the end. But people were and people went to jail for it. Do you think the combination of sort of fear and humour is something that happened a lot? A tremendous amount. It had to because, you know, some aspects of it were very frightening and very dark. And the lightness and the humour kept people going.

00:15:35.780 - 00:16:38.740

I saw it just to go back to this kind of hierarchy of sacrifice. I was so keen to dissuade the camp women that, you know, we were just part-timers or whatever, because I was quite a high earner. I spent a tremendous amount of money. Every weekend I would go down with a loaded car full of food, alcohol, always welcome. But also more practical things like frying pans and saucepans, wood for the fire, large plastic containers to store food in and things. And I was really, really happy to do that and to make that practical contribution. And then it was very disheartening to go down the following weekend and find that the camp, that bit of the camp had been evicted and possessions seized and all the things I'd brought the previous weekend had gone in the muncher and that was very disheartening.

00:16:38.900 - 00:17:39.680

But I wasn't going to be dissuaded just as the women who carried on living there. The blockades before, the missiles arrived, I think, in late 83 and there were a number of blockades that were usually daytime. Blockades of the gate where the construction workers would go in, so every half-term and holiday I was down there wanting to be part of the blockade. And that was very exciting because if you're blockading a gate you're in a very big group of women and you have that sort of support of each other. But I do remember being very terrified, I'm also terrified of horses and police horses stepping between the bodies on the ground and I didn't know that they'd been trained not to step on a body so that felt very sort of threatening to me.

00:17:41.520 - 00:18:14.800

I suppose the biggest action that I was part of was the no-name action, I don't know if you know about that. I have read a bit about it. I was involved with my friend Sue on that and it was after that action that I did actually go to jail for a week. And I've written a play about it which you're welcome to take away or tell the rest of the group about, I don't know if it's interesting as part of the archive.

00:18:14.980 - 00:18:49.660

I'm certain it is. It's a 45 minute play written for radio but it could equally be adapted and become TV or stage. And it was the focus really, it starts with that Tony Benn encounter in the theatre. What was embarrassing about that is that I was still working, I was a headteacher in a school and I imagined that there were other people in the audience who I knew.

00:18:49.660 - 00:19:10.320

And I thought, oh do I want to expose myself like this? But the next week in the local paper there was, Tony Benn and Greenham Woman are reunited, which was a complete nonsense, I'd never met him before in my life. I'm just going to get rid of this. That's fine.

00:19:10.520 - 00:19:33.500

Ouch, you're being a pain. Yeah, so the No Name action was fantastic to be part of because it was so huge. And it was very, very well planned. We had meetings at the London office and meetings at our Camden meeting place.

00:19:33.500 - 00:20:04.660

And women from the camp had come to say, if you do this action you're likely to be arrested and you're likely to get a custodial sentence so you must be prepared for that. And so only go ahead with it if you're prepared to do that. Unfortunately it was at the beginning of half term week so I had no issue with the time as long as the custodial sentence wasn't longer than a week. Anyway, we did the action.

00:20:06.820 - 00:20:40.260

Parts of it were very exciting, very funny, lots and lots of singing. Parts of it were terrifying and actually going to court and then going to jail. I was in style in Cheshire, which felt a very long way away. And I suppose the main thrust of my play is the experience of a southern softie like myself, a middle class professional southern softie.

00:20:40.480 - 00:20:58.400

The experience I had in a northern working class environment of a jail and how I handled that. Do you want to talk about that? Yes, I'll gladly talk about it. I mean I feel quite proud really.

00:20:59.460 - 00:21:22.220

But the thing that I enjoyed about the action was that it was so huge. 400 of us went in at the same time. And I loved the chaos and confusion we caused. And how these police were just running around like headless chickens.

00:21:24.000 - 00:21:41.040

And they had numbers on their uniforms and some of them had badges. But to them we all looked exactly the same. So they found it very, very hard to identify people. And the cardinal rule of the action was that you would not give your name.

00:21:42.240 - 00:22:02.360

So we made it harder for them by constantly changing clothes and changing shoes and things. So they didn't know who they'd arrested or whatever. And then we went from there to... I was in custody in Reading.

00:22:02.980 - 00:22:17.020

Reading Jail. And it was a bank holiday weekend. So we were held on remand in Reading Jail. And that was okay.

00:22:17.740 - 00:22:28.880

Because you were always with at least one other person in a cell. Sometimes three or four of us. Although they changed us around a bit. And we found ways of making it okay.

00:22:29.360 - 00:22:51.700

It got to be scary when they had a special court on Monday. We went to Newbury. And the car park of the Newbury Courthouse was absolutely full of police vans. Of women who had been brought from Oxford and Cowley and Reading and Swindon and all over the place.

00:22:51.800 - 00:23:11.180

Because we'd filled the police stations and jails and the whole of the home counties. And they couldn't have us all in the court. So we had to sit in our minibus with the people we'd been on remand with. And then we saw other women coming out of the court.

00:23:11.640 - 00:23:24.300

And they were shouting messages. They had been sent down, but they were saying, We're going to jail and it's only a week. So at that point I knew, I could do this.

00:23:24.380 - 00:23:40.760

I've got a week. I can do that. But then it did become quite scary. In the court, three women magistrates. Very, very cold and frosty.

00:23:41.640 - 00:23:54.980

And in the witness box, we had decided in our van that we were not going to speak at all. So we didn't even confirm. I mean, they didn't have names for us anyway. We were just numbers.

00:23:56.400 - 00:24:11.040

But we didn't speak at all. And in the end, the chief magistrate said, I assume from your muted manners that you're not going to pay this fine. It was only a £25 fine.

00:24:11.520 - 00:24:25.440

A number of women at that time who couldn't go ahead with it for reasons of their own just said, OK, I'll pay the fine. But I decided to go with it. Went back to Reading.

00:24:27.240 - 00:24:48.060

Stayed there that night and most of the next day. And then a bizarre experience where you're sitting in a cell. By that time, we were convicted. So up until that time, we'd had no blankets, no pillows.

00:24:49.280 - 00:25:00.360

Disgusting food, but that carried on. But because we were now convicted, we could have blankets and pillows. So that last night in Reading, we had blankets and pillows. And that was OK.

00:25:00.740 - 00:25:13.900

But then the next day, you heard screws coming down the corridor saying, 10 for Holloway. And you're sitting there thinking, oh, I hope they choose Holloway because that's near home

00:25:13.900 - 00:25:21.240

and I'll be able to get home easily from there. And I didn't get chosen for Holloway. And then 3 for Durham. My friend Sue went to Durham.

00:25:22.120 - 00:25:36.760

And then 10 for Stile. And they came and sort of picked you off and you got into one of these great big meat-safe wagons. And I thought, Stile? I don't know where the fuck that is.

00:25:36.840 - 00:25:48.160

Where are they sending me? For the record, where is Stile? It's actually quite near Manchester, it's up in Cheshire. But that felt like a very, very long way from home.

00:25:48.160 - 00:26:05.720

I get terribly travel sick. I also had really, really bad period pains. And so I was really worried about travelling all this way to God knows where in this van.

00:26:05.880 - 00:26:15.860

And it was so, so hot. Again, Greenham is... My memories are extreme weather conditions. It was never just, oh, it's quite a nice day.

00:26:17.740 - 00:26:32.860

So we went to Milton Keynes, first of all. And that was clearly for a break for the screws in the bath, in the truck. Because we didn't get any lunch.

00:26:32.940 - 00:26:45.120

We were allowed to go to the loo and we were allowed to give them water. And I was saying to people with me, are we there? Are we nearly there? Just like a frightened child.

00:26:45.120 - 00:26:55.740

Are we nearly there, Daddy? No, we've got bloody miles to go. And so we carried on up to Stile. I mean, it's like sitting in a meat safe.

00:26:55.840 - 00:27:02.700

It really is. It's a hard metal bench. And then there's a hard metal door here. And a triangular window.

00:27:03.120 - 00:27:17.060

And behind you, a slightly bigger window. But, you know, I'm quite a big person. I couldn't really even turn round properly. Anyway, we arrived at Stile at about 8, 8.30 in the evening.

00:27:18.600 - 00:27:34.060

And that's when I started to get really frightened because it's a semi-open prison and a lot of the women live in these big red brick houses. I think it's an old barracks, army barracks or something.

00:27:34.700 - 00:27:44.100

And as we came up the drive in this big truck, which said Thames Valley Police, you know, they were opening their windows and leaning out the windows saying,

00:27:44.260 - 00:27:51.700

Oh God, more of them green and cunts. Don't bring them here. They've all got lice. We don't want them. And I thought, this is the environment

00:27:51.700 - 00:28:04.880

I've invited myself to for the next week. Anyway, then they took us one by one off this truck to process us. And I knew there were ten of us on there.

00:28:06.160 - 00:28:15.340

And I was in the last two. And a voice said, There's no room. There's no room. You're going to have to take them back to Reading.

00:28:15.860 - 00:28:25.840

And I thought, God, I've got to go back. This journey, you know, I've got these period pains and I was feeling sick and whatever. Anyway, they decided to send us

00:28:25.840 - 00:28:38.860

not to the same area of the prison, but to something they called the Muppet House, which was one of these red brick buildings. And me and this other woman, Helen,

00:28:38.980 - 00:28:48.780

who I hadn't known up to that point, we were sent there. Grim processing, strip search, not internal search,

00:28:48.860 - 00:29:01.460

but might as well have done. It was so demeaning. Given a little cotton nightie with frilly collar. And we were in solitary confinement,

00:29:01.480 - 00:29:12.760

but within this house. So we had, we did quite well really, because we had a room as such. And it was a room with a metal frame bed

00:29:13.220 - 00:29:25.380

screwed to the floor in the middle of the room. But I had a window and I could see out. And the rest of the furniture was very, very inventive. It was made out of corrugated cardboard

00:29:25.380 - 00:29:38.820

so you couldn't hurt yourself with it or bash the place up with a little cupboard or whatever. Anyway, I was there for a week and I decided,

00:29:39.080 - 00:29:57.560

and it wasn't actually something, it wasn't a strategy that I seemed to put together for myself, but I knew I wanted to confound them by challenging the stereotype

00:29:57.560 - 00:30:10.060

of the typical Greenham woman. And there'd been awful, awful press about how badly behaved the women were, how lippy they were and foul-mouthed and things.

00:30:10.380 - 00:30:20.740

And I decided that I was going to be super polite. And so the screws, it was wonderful to see the looks on their faces because they were completely confounded.

00:30:20.940 - 00:30:27.680

Who is this woman? She is being so polite and nice. And I would say things like, please tell whoever made that porridge

00:30:27.680 - 00:30:43.160

it was absolutely delicious. It was just like I would have made it at home. We actually had four days in those individual rooms. Extremely hot weather.

00:30:43.460 - 00:30:50.380

I was flinging open the window and chucking out bits of toast. I felt like the bad woman, the bird woman of Alcatraz.

00:30:55.080 - 00:31:05.460

We were in solitary confinement but I never felt like I was on my own because they wouldn't leave me alone. They were so determined to find out who I was.

00:31:06.980 - 00:31:19.320

There was a chain of people to come and talk to me about who I was. I wasn't going to tell them. When you first get into prison

00:31:19.320 - 00:31:26.720

you get given a booklet which is called On Coming Into Prison. The first thing that will happen is you will be photographed and fingerprinted.

00:31:27.540 - 00:31:35.320

It never happened. They didn't have a name to put to those prints or photographs. But they were determined.

00:31:35.680 - 00:31:45.420

And I had the chief, I don't know what did they call them, the head of the prison, the governor. And the deputy governor.

00:31:45.900 - 00:31:54.880

I had three vicars of different faiths came to talk to me. And I just thought, we should just go away. And I befriended one of the screws

00:31:54.880 - 00:32:03.280

who was really, really nice and said to me, would you like something to read? And I said, oh that would be wonderful. I've read that prison booklet six times.

00:32:03.740 - 00:32:13.420

And she said, oh that's good, that's good. I'll be back to ask you questions on it later. And she brought me three dreadful books each of which I read three times.

00:32:13.540 - 00:32:19.140

But she was so nice. And every time one of these people came I felt like saying, could you just go away so I can get on with my book.

00:32:21.520 - 00:32:32.860

What happened then? Towards the end of the week this really, really fearsome screw said,

00:32:35.540 - 00:32:47.320

you're going to be released on Friday. And normally we would give you a travel warrant, a travel pass or something, permit

00:32:47.320 - 00:32:55.660

and some subsistence. But we can't do that if we don't know your name. And I said, that's fine, that's absolutely fine, I'm a green woman,

00:32:55.820 - 00:33:02.640

I'm resourceful, I'll get my way home. Get my way home. And they said, well, you came from Newbury, is that where you live?

00:33:02.680 - 00:33:12.660

And I said, hmm, yeah, yeah. And they said, it's a very long way, how are you going to get home? I said, not a problem, don't worry about it, don't worry about it. Ever so polite, ever so polite all the time.

00:33:14.180 - 00:33:24.340

Anyway, come the day we were given travel permits and we were given subsistence and we were taken

00:33:24.340 - 00:33:31.500

at five in the morning or something ridiculous. Oh no, the last night, the last night they moved

00:33:32.200 - 00:33:40.680

Helen and I from this house. We had met up. Every day you had 15 minutes exercise and Helen and I were taking an exercise together

00:33:40.680 - 00:33:46.320

and it was just walking around a great big tennis court. But it was lovely because it was so hot and it was nice to be out in the air

00:33:46.320 - 00:33:55.120

and we were not allowed to talk to each other but so of course we did. But we were taken on the last night into the main building

00:33:55.120 - 00:34:02.060

into the punishment block which is where the other eight women had been all the week and oh my god it was so awful

00:34:02.480 - 00:34:09.300

and I was so grateful that I'd ended up in a room with a window and sunlight

00:34:09.300 - 00:34:17.220

and whatever but we spent that last night in the punishment block which was really like an old-fashioned

00:34:17.220 - 00:34:25.660

prison cell high window that you couldn't look out of and then the next morning yeah five or five thirty in the morning

00:34:25.660 - 00:34:34.020

we were taken to can't remember the nearest station but it was just a train station and then we were let out

00:34:34.020 - 00:34:39.660

and we got our tickets back to back to Newbury I don't know

00:34:40.800 - 00:34:49.100

a 96P subsistence and I was an absolute idiot I was so jubilant that I went

00:34:49.100 - 00:34:56.080

straight away to the buffet place and I bought a Guardian because I'm a coffee head a cup of coffee

00:34:56.080 - 00:35:04.420

and my 96P had gone and I was going to end up in London Euston and how was I going to get home I've got no money because that was another thing

00:35:04.420 - 00:35:12.440

that was so depersonalising knowing that you were going to do this action I packed very very carefully

00:35:12.440 - 00:35:19.860

and I had a little backpack which had a good long book in it and clean knickers and a toothbrush

00:35:20.420 - 00:35:27.840

and tampax and knitting needles and knitting that's what I thought I'd do when I'm in prison and of course they took all that away

00:35:28.400 - 00:35:35.060

and any money that we had they took away so and did you not get that back oh yes I did

00:35:35.060 - 00:35:42.580

but I had to go to Newbury police station to pick it up a couple of weeks later I see I got to Euston and

00:35:43.040 - 00:35:50.940

that was in the days when you had bus conductors and I didn't live that far away I lived in Hampstead 3 or 4 miles north of Euston

00:35:50.940 - 00:35:57.960

but I just got on the bus and when the conductor came I just looked out the window and thought I hope I'm going to get away with this because I haven't got any money and I did, I got home

00:35:57.960 - 00:36:05.520

but yeah that felt like a very big thing and part of the

00:36:05.520 - 00:36:14.280

reason for that action or maybe the reason I can't really remember now but they were in the process of changing the laws so that

00:36:14.280 - 00:36:21.080

trespass would be actually a criminal offence and that if you trespassed on their common

00:36:21.080 - 00:36:30.540

their common I ask you you could be held and you could be held for an indefinite period

00:36:30.540 - 00:36:38.360

until they got a verifiable name and address which is why it was the no name action so we

00:36:38.360 - 00:36:45.100

you know did the action served our sentence and came out with no criminal record because they didn't know who the fuck we were

00:36:46.320 - 00:36:53.800

which was just brilliant absolutely brilliant I felt so so good did all 10 of your

00:36:54.520 - 00:37:01.740

comrades come out in the same sort of relief state of mind as you did? Oh we were so

00:37:01.740 - 00:37:09.680

badly behaved because we had to get on a train to take us down to London and it was a commuter train that was stopping at every single

00:37:09.680 - 00:37:17.360

station for people going to work and we were just so loud and so hysterical so jubilant but

00:37:17.360 - 00:37:25.640

they must have thought well they probably thought I bet those were noisy Greenham women and in that instance we certainly were

00:37:25.640 - 00:37:33.320

but after that I think it was June 85 and I think in September

00:37:33.320 - 00:37:41.440

85 the bill became an act with this holding you until they got a verifiable

00:37:41.440 - 00:37:48.880

name and address is that still in force? Oh yes oh yes it's part of the public order act

00:37:51.660 - 00:37:59.040

and so I then had to pull my horns in a bit because by this time I was doing my training for headship

00:37:59.620 - 00:38:07.720

and I just I couldn't I felt too conflicted about it and the thing is that I got a

00:38:07.720 - 00:38:15.640

taste for action now I didn't want to just go and sit around the fire and sing songs I wanted to do things and it became too risky

00:38:15.640 - 00:38:23.860

in terms of my career so I did pull back I still went to camp and I still you know did lots of driving

00:38:23.860 - 00:38:31.580

for other women to different parts of the camp and so on but I didn't and it was also the beginning of cruise watch, you know about cruise watch? Yes

00:38:31.580 - 00:38:38.760

because by that time the missiles had arrived I think it was 83 they arrived and every now and then they took them out on a little trip and

00:38:39.860 - 00:38:47.840

a lot of my friends were doing that and getting arrested and going to prison and I would drive them to certain points

00:38:47.840 - 00:38:54.720

but I wouldn't be part of the action and so I went ahead and became head teacher

00:38:55.440 - 00:39:02.480

so I suppose my involvement lasted from 82 until 86

00:39:04.280 - 00:39:11.240

It's quite a long time It's quite a long time and it feels like a really really important

00:39:11.840 - 00:39:19.380

formative time of my life It was definitely the politicisation of me because all

00:39:19.380 - 00:39:27.200

those conversations around the campfire they weren't just talking about this action we were talking about other issues feminist issues and

00:39:27.200 - 00:39:35.140

environmental issues and things and it was then I joined the Labour Party and Greenpeace and

00:39:35.660 - 00:39:43.760

became involved in a lot of those things as well that were a little less dodgy in terms of prison sentences

00:39:44.980 - 00:39:51.980

Was there an acknowledgement of the sort of necessity of the support networks to allow these

00:39:51.980 - 00:39:59.260

actions to happen because that hierarchy of sacrifice does involve other people supporting your sacrifice to an extent

00:39:59.260 - 00:40:07.520

was that ever acknowledged? You can't stay at Green without people bringing you stuff and you can't do actions without somebody having a car

00:40:07.520 - 00:40:15.840

or income or a job or was that um acknowledgement by whom? I guess by everybody

00:40:15.840 - 00:40:23.880

I mean was that was there acceptance like you were saying of everybody doing what they could and that being just as vital

00:40:23.880 - 00:40:31.300

the little bits and the weekend support and the money and the driving and the... I think that hierarchy

00:40:31.300 - 00:40:39.360

existed right till the very end the sort of you're not a real Green woman because you haven't left home and left your family

00:40:39.360 - 00:40:47.660

um for some for some of the hardliners um but I became quite

00:40:47.660 - 00:40:54.880

friendly with Rebecca and I knew she just appreciated everything we did and Helen John too who was one of the founder members she's died now

00:40:55.700 - 00:41:03.680

um I yes and I was in touch with her a long time after I had stopped being part of it all

00:41:04.520 - 00:41:10.560

um so I never doubted

00:41:11.120 - 00:41:19.020

my own value as part of the movement um but I knew there were others who did and

00:41:19.020 - 00:41:27.320

the terrible absence of press coverage I mean many times there was a sort of

00:41:27.320 - 00:41:34.860

de-notice served which meant that things couldn't be reported on and I reached out a bit to

00:41:36.100 - 00:41:42.040

female journalists Kate Adie I wrote to her um after the bus action

00:41:43.260 - 00:41:50.860

um because although I hadn't been part of that bus action I had other friends who were and had gone to jail and it was just not reported

00:41:50.860 - 00:41:58.500

at all not even in the Guardian and I wrote to her maybe three days afterwards and she wrote back saying it's old news

00:41:58.500 - 00:42:04.600

you know and there was no so that kind of acknowledgement was just not there

00:42:04.600 - 00:42:12.660

do you think women's issues in general women's issues that's a horrific phrase I'm sorry I used that do you think news around women is often

00:42:13.580 - 00:42:21.420

downplayed by media organisations I know that currently people feel that deaths to domestic violence and sexual violence are under reported

00:42:21.420 - 00:42:29.200

as being not newsworthy do you think that Greenham suffered from that same fate oh very much so

00:42:29.200 - 00:42:36.240

I mean it really was it was vanguardy in as much as

00:42:37.900 - 00:42:45.780

it was really the most public demonstration since the suffragettes that have been led by women and so there was

00:42:45.780 - 00:42:53.320

a lot of sort of shock horror probe um no not enough probe but just shock horror

00:42:53.900 - 00:43:01.020

um focusing mostly on um women's sexuality

00:43:01.880 - 00:43:09.360

they were only you know they're all nice little lesbians and they're only living at Greenham Common because they've got nowhere else to go

00:43:10.060 - 00:43:17.460

um yeah a lot of that negativity and it was really only the Guardian that

00:43:18.100 - 00:43:25.160

reported positively at all but there again not very often because of the denotices so um

00:43:26.540 - 00:43:32.400

there wasn't there wasn't acknowledgement that I would like there to have been by the media

00:43:32.980 - 00:43:41.440

I think I mean you talk about women's issues now and um domestic abuse and sexual violence and things

00:43:41.440 - 00:43:48.260

and um the pay gap everything yes I think they're under reported

00:43:48.980 - 00:43:55.740

but I think they're nine times better than they were then you know yes so

00:43:56.740 - 00:44:04.880

yeah and how was how was women's sexuality viewed at the time was it universally negative was it something that was seen as

00:44:06.620 - 00:44:13.060

oh I don't know I can't imagine how it was portrayed back in 1982 I mean sexuality seems much

00:44:13.060 - 00:44:21.300

less of a oh much less now much less I think it's much easier to come up now than it was for us

00:44:21.300 - 00:44:29.420

yeah um yeah I think it was very frowned upon and there was always this

00:44:29.420 - 00:44:37.200

um underlying thing of oh you're only with a woman because you can't get a man you know because you're fat you're ugly

00:44:37.200 - 00:44:44.920

you're hairy um and so on there weren't very many positive images of lesbians except in

00:44:44.920 - 00:44:52.640

sort of feminist circles so it depended on where you went I mean there were a lot of theatre groups who were doing some quite adventurous

00:44:53.700 - 00:45:00.320

stuff around sexuality um sensible footwear was one of them

00:45:00.320 - 00:45:08.060

I love that name and um I can't remember the other names but some really good sort of musicians who were

00:45:08.060 - 00:45:15.960

trying to bring things to the forefront I wonder whether there was any positive impact in it raising the profile of lesbians in that

00:45:15.960 - 00:45:24.360

it meant that people knew that it was there or whether that was not instrumental at all and I would imagine

00:45:24.360 - 00:45:32.380

if I was isolated and feeling like my sexuality was an issue to know that there were lots of lesbians out there and that I

00:45:32.380 - 00:45:40.360

there were or was that something that people always knew I don't know I don't know what it'd been like growing up in the 80s well as I said when I first went to

00:45:40.360 - 00:45:48.320

Greenham I was 33 and I'd probably been entertaining thoughts of relationships with women since I was about 13

00:45:48.320 - 00:45:56.160

but I had never dared it was too scary and um well also

00:45:56.160 - 00:46:04.380

in education it's it was very difficult to be out um working in schools I never came out

00:46:04.380 - 00:46:12.120

to children I very rarely came out to parents I did come out to colleagues but um you know there's all these

00:46:12.120 - 00:46:20.140

weird distorted views that all um homosexuals are paedophiles and

00:46:20.140 - 00:46:28.180

um your you know your children might not be safe and I think that went that lasted

00:46:28.180 - 00:46:35.680

even longer than that and in 92 10 years afterwards

00:46:35.680 - 00:46:42.780

when I was a very happy well established lesbian I was in a relationship um

00:46:44.300 - 00:46:51.880

with a long term relationship we were together 17 years um with a midwife and I was a primary teacher

00:46:51.880 - 00:47:00.180

and we moved to a village much smaller than this on Exmoor and because of her job which

00:47:00.180 - 00:47:07.460

was working with women's bodies and because of my job which was working with children we were quite guarded we felt we had to be

00:47:08.200 - 00:47:15.540

because because people do have this distorted image um

00:47:16.200 - 00:47:24.280

and when I was working in London for Illio, Illio was very much in the forefront and um

00:47:24.280 - 00:47:31.800

I was part of all sorts of working parties around um women's issues and

00:47:32.760 - 00:47:40.400

um um there were warnings all the time

00:47:41.400 - 00:47:47.840

as a man or a woman straight or gay you should not be in a classroom on your own with one child

00:47:49.200 - 00:47:59.020

because it was open to interpretation misinterpretation um I've gone off the point a bit now

00:47:59.020 - 00:48:06.160

ask me another question have a biscuit okay I had some questions and they've all just gone out of my head

00:48:06.860 - 00:48:14.120

under the pressure of being asked um do you think, one of the things I'm most interested in is what

00:48:14.760 - 00:48:22.440

made Green Impossible and why it doesn't feel like that sort of

00:48:22.440 - 00:48:30.080

mass action would happen nowadays and I don't know whether you think about whether it was

00:48:30.080 - 00:48:38.300

very time specific or what has changed since then yeah yes was it just to do

00:48:38.300 - 00:48:46.200

with the issue being so overwhelmingly huge that people felt they had to act or was there something else about politics

00:48:46.200 - 00:48:54.180

at the time or people at the time was there more optimism why women don't want to be

00:48:55.280 - 00:49:02.020

in these women only spaces anymore or why they don't see the value of women only actions in a way that was

00:49:02.020 - 00:49:08.600

embraced back then um that feels like about seven questions yeah it is probably

00:49:09.220 - 00:49:18.060

pick any one of them I think what made it possible possible was

00:49:18.060 - 00:49:26.220

your first question it was the dogged determination of that group of women who marched from Wales

00:49:26.220 - 00:49:33.820

to Greenham Common and I have the utmost admiration for them Anne Pettit, Helen

00:49:33.820 - 00:49:41.320

John other names I can't remember but that initial group of women who marched on the Common

00:49:41.940 - 00:49:48.840

and set up camp there and initially I don't know if you know this but initially it was a mixed camp

00:49:49.720 - 00:49:55.880

and things went wrong and the men wanted to lead and to take over and everything

00:49:55.880 - 00:50:04.320

and that same bunch of women said no this is going to be a women's only camp and so I admire them for that and I think

00:50:04.320 - 00:50:11.940

that was a good choice um and that made it possible and just their persistence I mean

00:50:11.940 - 00:50:19.760

they marched there in December it wasn't a balmy June day you know and they had to set up their own

00:50:20.300 - 00:50:27.980

systems, ways of working and the conditions were absolutely foul

00:50:27.980 - 00:50:35.420

most of the time um and the evictions and the vigilantes

00:50:35.420 - 00:50:42.700

and the total total negativity with which they were viewed

00:50:42.700 - 00:50:51.800

so I think that's what made it possible and they also reached out and networked and came to

00:50:51.800 - 00:50:59.500

London where I was and made connections and you know and it all just kind of mushroomed

00:50:59.500 - 00:51:07.540

um I don't know about I don't really know about the

00:51:07.540 - 00:51:14.580

politics of the time being an influence although much later

00:51:15.320 - 00:51:20.520

probably when was the miners strike? 84-85 yes

00:51:22.480 - 00:51:30.960

there was very much a strong coming together of those two causes and at the gate I was at, Orange Gate we made a connection with

00:51:31.940 - 00:51:39.160

a group in Bentley in Yorkshire and the women actually came to Greenham and we went up there

00:51:39.160 - 00:51:45.380

and we supported each other and I think there was some pretty horrible stuff going on

00:51:45.380 - 00:51:54.580

and the women who'd set up the camp originally just thought well we must challenge this as well and so on

00:51:55.520 - 00:52:01.400

um was that horrible stuff going on around the miners strike? oh yes

00:52:02.540 - 00:52:07.880

and dreadful dreadful way the miners were treated and

00:52:07.880 - 00:52:15.940

um yeah it felt a really kind of edgy time that time

00:52:16.700 - 00:52:24.940

um and you asked me a long time ago about humour and

00:52:25.580 - 00:52:32.500

lightness and yes it was very very important and yesterday I found this, I don't know if you've seen this, the Greenham Factors

00:52:32.500 - 00:52:40.540

you know the last time you had one of these it was amazing some of the photographs in here are just fantastic

00:52:41.500 - 00:52:47.600

and some of the banners that it features um wow

00:52:47.600 - 00:52:57.020

the artwork that I've seen come out of it is quite spectacular oh phenomenal the newsletters and the

00:52:57.020 - 00:53:05.720

drawings and the poetry yeah it is amazing I think that is Sue I think that's Sue

00:53:05.720 - 00:53:13.620

I think it is I didn't know that but yes I think that is her I love that

00:53:13.620 - 00:53:21.000

that picture with the lady look at the survival bag on her yeah and this one I love too

00:53:21.640 - 00:53:24.860

yeah that's fantastic that's from Rebecca yeah

00:53:29.580 - 00:53:35.680

so that decision to expel the men which I see as the one of the most

00:53:36.900 - 00:53:43.500

vital decisions that happened or not to expel, expel might be a bit of a loaded word but to make it women only

00:53:44.220 - 00:53:52.620

it seems to me like it wouldn't the movement couldn't have gone on without it being women only

00:53:52.620 - 00:53:59.920

or that the way it evolved was entirely predicated on it being a women only movement, I don't know if that's a correct perception

00:53:59.920 - 00:54:08.780

I think the success and the longevity of it were definitely predicated on that and I mean there were other

00:54:08.780 - 00:54:16.580

bases nearby where they were mixed and I just think that

00:54:16.580 - 00:54:24.240

men I mean I'm not a separatist by any means and I've got some really good friends

00:54:24.240 - 00:54:31.980

who are men and I've got brothers and things but I do think that men are wired differently and in the face of protest

00:54:33.100 - 00:54:40.480

they want to get aggressive and sometimes that becomes violent and there was always an emphasis

00:54:42.280 - 00:54:50.200

at Greenham around the fire and at London in our groups that all our action was going to be non-violent

00:54:50.760 - 00:55:00.120

and I think I think that confused the police you know this sort of

00:55:00.700 - 00:55:08.380

passivity or apparent passivity of women just being dragged along the ground you know and they're not putting up any resistance

00:55:09.700 - 00:55:16.360

so yes I do think it was very important and I think I keep coming

00:55:16.360 - 00:55:24.740

back to this word dogged which is strange because I hate dogs, I'm terrified of dogs but there was a doggedness in everybody

00:55:24.740 - 00:55:30.120

nobody, I can't remember anybody ever saying oh well we'll just have to give up oh no

00:55:31.400 - 00:55:40.080

there was so much positivity around and how can we how can we continue

00:55:40.080 - 00:55:48.560

to challenge this one action I didn't mention was the big fence pulling down that was after the missiles had arrived

00:55:49.340 - 00:55:56.380

and there was a huge action and we pulled down something like 4 or 5

00:55:56.380 - 00:56:04.080

miles of the 9 mile fence all at the same time and I was involved in that, I loved that action it was really great and I went with

00:56:04.080 - 00:56:11.400

a very good friend and her mother who was 83 and her mother was in a wheelchair

00:56:11.940 - 00:56:19.620

and have you heard about black cardigans, you must have heard about black cardigans well black cardigans

00:56:19.620 - 00:56:26.540

was code word for bolt cutters, BC black cardigans and so we were asked to come to this action

00:56:27.400 - 00:56:35.240

equipped with bolt cutters and you needed quite heavy duty ones to cut through the wire and I remember Hetty, the old lady in the wheelchair, had about

00:56:35.240 - 00:56:43.180

4 pairs of bolt cutters under her blanket on her wheelchair and when we got to the fence she handed them all out and we cut here and we cut there

00:56:43.180 - 00:56:51.520

that was magnificent I mean, okay it was only a wire fence but it was very symbolic, you know, we are breaking

00:56:51.520 - 00:56:58.720

down the walls that separated us what kept everybody so positive that's, I think

00:57:00.160 - 00:57:07.860

from an objective sort of outside of you, you think well how did people keep going in the face of you know, your continuing

00:57:07.860 - 00:57:19.420

cold war and the awful rhetoric in the media I think the fun and creativity

00:57:19.420 - 00:57:27.800

of a lot of the actions even those that failed, I remember another one where we gathered for a weekend

00:57:27.800 - 00:57:35.780

and we constructed, you know the symbol of the spider's web we constructed a huge huge spider's web

00:57:37.860 - 00:57:45.280

and planned to attach it to helium balloons that would fly over the fence

00:57:45.860 - 00:57:52.960

and it all went horribly wrong the helium wasn't strong enough or something or the wind was too hard and it blew it the opposite direction but

00:57:53.600 - 00:58:02.120

the fun around that gathering with other women with a purpose like that, I think the friendships

00:58:03.600 - 00:58:08.880

the the singing the singing was very very important

00:58:08.880 - 00:58:18.540

and as you've mentioned the I mean it was for the women who lived at camp the whole time

00:58:18.540 - 00:58:26.320

they weren't constantly breaking into the base or doing other subversive things, there was a lot of

00:58:26.320 - 00:58:33.420

sitting around and people wrote wonderful poetry did fabulous paintings and drawings and

00:58:35.300 - 00:58:41.580

I think it was a place where a lot of women found themselves, I found

00:58:42.800 - 00:58:49.760

confirmation in my lesbian sexuality but I also found my

00:58:49.760 - 00:58:56.620

politics really and I think that was happening for an awful lot of people so it was very very powerful and yes it must be remembered

00:58:56.620 - 00:59:04.820

Yes, I think there is a genuine joy in subversion, you see it in children all the time Yes indeed

00:59:04.820 - 00:59:13.620

Nothing quite so fun as breaking the rules especially if you can do it with your friends Right, yes and not get too severely punished for it

00:59:14.180 - 00:59:21.360

Indeed indeed Or is there anything else you would think? Well I can't think that, I feel I ought to

00:59:21.360 - 00:59:29.060

have done more preparation I thought you were going to ask me questions I do have a lot of memorabilia and artifacts

00:59:29.060 - 00:59:37.160

and I know you're not about that today but I will give you that to take away That's fantastic, and when you were going

00:59:37.160 - 00:59:45.060

through your memorabilia you said it was a really enjoyable experience Oh it was Were there things in there that you hadn't seen for a long time?

00:59:47.720 - 00:59:55.320

Yes, photographs in particular photographs of me 35 years ago sharing those

00:59:55.320 - 01:00:05.000

with Jan, my wife, you know who wasn't involved in Greenham at all Oh look how young you look! And I was

01:00:05.000 - 01:00:12.740

young and I was really energetic and up for anything providing at the end

01:00:12.740 - 01:00:20.840

I wasn't going to be arrested I don't know if Sue mentioned this in her interview but we also set up

01:00:20.840 - 01:00:26.800

a sort of Greenham on sea at Brodie in Pembrokeshire Did she mention that? Oh yes, we talked a lot about Brodie

01:00:26.800 - 01:00:35.840

She and some other friends organised this because we were all into surfing as well she used to organise a surf camp every summer and we'd go to

01:00:38.480 - 01:00:45.280

Brodie and we'd surf all day and then at night we'd demonstrate outside

01:00:45.900 - 01:00:54.000

what used to be RAF Brodie and then became USAF and we used to

01:00:54.000 - 01:01:00.900

go and demonstrate outside the gates when there were shift changes and things and that was my first arrest actually I got arrested there

01:01:02.700 - 01:01:09.560

and it just was extraordinary I don't know what's there now

01:01:09.560 - 01:01:17.040

but at that time we were reliably informed that what you could see, this group of buildings on the hill was actually

01:01:17.660 - 01:01:24.860

one tenth of what was there and the other nine tenths, like an iceberg was underground and it was the biggest

01:01:25.680 - 01:01:33.340

submarine tracking station in Europe at that time and I remember being bundled into

01:01:33.340 - 01:01:41.020

a police car and handcuffed to a young PC and I remember saying to him

01:01:41.960 - 01:01:49.000

Aren't you worried? Do you live near here? Aren't you worried for yourself and your family?

01:01:49.200 - 01:01:56.580

You do realise that this sub-tracking station is a prime target and he said

01:01:56.580 - 01:02:04.480

Oh no I'm alright, I live in Fishguard that's ten miles away and I said listen mate if they launch one of these missiles

01:02:04.480 - 01:02:11.840

it'll blow the whole Principality of Wales out of the water So there's public ignorance about the impact?

01:02:13.580 - 01:02:19.220

I find that phenomenal Yes it really was As a child in the 80s I grew up with you know

01:02:22.220 - 01:02:28.380

sort of cartoons when the wind blows Yes, Raymond Briggs Absolutely, I thought it was

01:02:28.380 - 01:02:36.940

an absolute given that it would all be annihilated Local people just didn't know Was it just because it was

01:02:36.940 - 01:02:43.720

too much to contemplate do you think? The idea that it could actually be the end of life as we know it

01:02:44.680 - 01:02:51.760

Yes but I think that persists today you know That lunatic Trump gets his finger on the button

01:02:52.740 - 01:02:59.160

We're all gone Yeah We are all gone I suppose I

01:02:59.860 - 01:03:06.860

I am fascinated by the line between sort of paralysis in the face of overwhelming fear

01:03:06.860 - 01:03:18.500

and action in the face of fear And given that the world is probably no less a scary place today as it was then

01:03:18.500 - 01:03:26.980

we seem to not engage with it in the way that it was people weren't going to engage with this

01:03:26.980 - 01:03:35.420

we're not going to pretend it's not happening we're going to do something about it and that to me seems fantastically brave But a lot of that

01:03:35.420 - 01:03:43.220

I think the ignorance was because of the lack of reporting the Cold War and all the secrets around it

01:03:43.220 - 01:03:52.340

and the lack of reporting about demonstrations and actions that went on and what they were about

01:03:52.340 - 01:04:03.400

what were they demonstrating against really So yeah that poor man in Fishguard I hope I opened his eyes a little

01:04:03.400 - 01:04:11.080

That was a great action actually because we we were in custody overnight

01:04:11.080 - 01:04:19.600

and then released but we had been arrested and charged and a local lawyer

01:04:19.600 - 01:04:27.720

got in touch probably with Sue and said I'd like to represent you and so

01:04:29.020 - 01:04:35.940

we did have our day in court and I had to throw a sickie that day because it was during the week

01:04:35.940 - 01:04:43.460

and we went down to Haverford West to court and this guy, this lawyer had found out that the road we were sitting on and blockading

01:04:44.180 - 01:04:50.740

was it was actually public road and so we had every right to be there and so we were all acquitted

01:04:53.020 - 01:05:01.860

So no criminal record on that either Were there many women professionals involved? You were saying when you went to court in the No Name

01:05:03.020 - 01:05:10.580

action that they brought out three women magistrates, do you think that was intentional? It sounds very intentional or were there a lot of female magistrates around?

01:05:10.660 - 01:05:18.200

I don't know, I mean there were Greenham Court cases in the Magistrates Court almost every day of the week

01:05:18.200 - 01:05:25.700

around that time, you know not just for the No Name so I don't know if that was just how the rota worked out on that day

01:05:25.700 - 01:05:32.500

but there was absolutely no sympathy. Oh another thing I forgot to tell you when I was in jail and I saw this

01:05:33.980 - 01:05:41.460

this deputy governor came to see me and she was quite hardline and saying

01:05:41.460 - 01:05:51.080

well you know you're going to have to tell us who you are saying things like if you tell us who you are then we'll let you

01:05:51.700 - 01:05:59.400

have recreation with the other prisoners I was too terrified for words about that happening although I had

01:05:59.400 - 01:06:07.580

made some contact because it was so hot and I had a sash window, I threw it up and there were women in that house opposite who started sort of calling out

01:06:07.580 - 01:06:14.840

to me and they weren't unpleasant at all what's your name, what's your name and I replied that I wasn't going to tell anybody my name

01:06:15.460 - 01:06:22.400

and they said alright then well we'll have to call you Peace Woman so I became Peace Woman and they were lovely and they played really good music

01:06:22.400 - 01:06:30.980

and so I enjoyed their company but the best contact I had I must go back to this deputy governor but the best contact I had was

01:06:30.980 - 01:06:38.940

I think it was on my first morning there were a couple of really young women I mean they had to be 18 to be there

01:06:38.940 - 01:06:47.240

but they were probably only just 18 and they came to clean my window and the windows collapsed outside

01:06:47.240 - 01:06:54.980

and got talking to them and they said we hear you're called Peace Woman and I said yeah I'm Peace Woman, why are you here

01:06:54.980 - 01:07:03.180

and so I told them about Green in which they knew nothing about and they said well what do you mean, what do they keep

01:07:03.180 - 01:07:10.240

there and I said well the Americans keep their bombs there but I didn't give them permission did you and they said no

01:07:10.240 - 01:07:18.780

and I said yeah well Thatcher has said that they can keep their bombs there and we don't think it's right and it's common land and it's yours

01:07:18.780 - 01:07:26.760

and it's mine and just really sort of simplifying it and they said do you want to know what we're in for

01:07:27.400 - 01:07:34.920

and I said well if you want to tell me sure and they said well we're both here for arson and I said right

01:07:34.920 - 01:07:43.080

and they said tell you what when we get out of here we'll get down to that Greenham Common and we'll bomb the place so I felt

01:07:43.080 - 01:07:49.560

you know education was carrying on even though it was half term so that was quite fun that comes into the play

01:07:50.480 - 01:07:59.160

but this deputy governor having said to me you know you're going to have to give your name and so on as she was leaving she said by the way

01:07:59.160 - 01:08:06.860

do you know a woman at Greenham Common called she gave a woman's name which was quite unusual and I said

01:08:06.860 - 01:08:14.380

no I don't think so why and she said oh she's a friend of mine and I thought how ridiculous this woman here

01:08:14.980 - 01:08:22.520

upholding this system and yet she's got a friend at Greenham so there were some humorous things

01:08:22.520 - 01:08:31.140

in that experience but this lovely group who got me the books what was good

01:08:31.140 - 01:08:39.300

because it was semi open there was a lot of movement around I could see out of my window and on the door

01:08:39.300 - 01:08:46.960

there was a timetable of what to expect when, when was lunch, when was breakfast and I knew in the morning there was classes

01:08:46.960 - 01:08:55.060

or jobs of various kind and gardening and so on and so I knew what time of day it was by the

01:08:55.060 - 01:09:02.180

movement that was going on and anyway one afternoon I think it was the second or third afternoon this

01:09:02.800 - 01:09:11.200

friendly screwy Mrs Collins came in and said to me would you like a bath and I said oh would I

01:09:11.200 - 01:09:18.780

and she said well everybody's out, everybody's out so I'll take you upstairs and you can have a bath and I said oh this is wonderful

01:09:18.780 - 01:09:26.380

because I'm all just doing washing with bowls of hot water and things and as I got up there she said

01:09:27.180 - 01:09:35.220

I'll give you this and she gave me two little sachets of bubble baths and she said you can put this one in the water and then if you want to wash your hair you can

01:09:35.220 - 01:09:43.200

use this one she said and I won't come in, I'll give you privacy but I'll be outside the whole time but I can't tell you the joy of

01:09:43.200 - 01:09:51.180

sinking into that bath, it was fabulous, it really was and she was so lovely I'd love to have kept in touch with her

01:09:51.180 - 01:09:59.320

but it just wasn't possible but she some of the other screws were really horrible and really unfriendly and you could imagine

01:09:59.320 - 01:10:06.480

them sitting in little rooms saying I'll find out who she is, I'll get her name you watch me but this one she didn't ever

01:10:07.540 - 01:10:14.160

So there's a reason to them getting your name so that you would then have a criminal record attached to you, yes and a photograph and fingerprints and whatever

01:10:14.160 - 01:10:22.700

so it's a bit amazing, it never happened didn't it It is amazing that you have a criminal record without having a criminal record

01:10:22.700 - 01:10:31.220

I mean I could never have gone on to be a head teacher now amongst my artifacts and again I don't know if this is interesting or not, you said that Sue

01:10:31.220 - 01:10:40.740

had given you a VHS recording I've got when I came out I mean

01:10:40.740 - 01:10:48.940

I had left my then partner at the fence she didn't want to do the action and so I

01:10:48.940 - 01:10:56.860

went into the base went to Reading, went to staff she had no idea where I was or what had happened at all

01:10:56.860 - 01:11:04.020

but because I didn't come home she guessed that I'd been charged and of course we weren't allowed

01:11:04.020 - 01:11:11.460

to contact people at all but as soon as I got home after my illegal bus ride I phoned her at work and said

01:11:11.460 - 01:11:18.660

I'm home, I'm home and she said I'm leaving work now, I'll be there in 20 minutes I want to hear every single thing

01:11:19.620 - 01:11:27.480

so before I started again, it was beautiful weather, sitting out in the garden surrounded by cats, picnic whatever and she said

01:11:27.480 - 01:11:34.860

before you start talking I want you to get a tape recorder I want to tape this and so I told her about the whole action

01:11:35.480 - 01:11:43.220

and the whole experience of going to prison and everything and I've got it on tape and it's quite a good recording you know it's not, it's a bit

01:11:43.220 - 01:11:51.160

homemade but it's so it's very sort of live have you listened to it? oh yes, oh yes

01:11:52.080 - 01:11:58.260

and some of it makes me tear up about how frightening it was at the time but some of it

01:11:59.040 - 01:12:05.760

makes me laugh so it's all in there and it's all in the play that would be wonderful

01:12:06.900 - 01:12:14.600

there is I think they've had a lot of response and they want to make sure that they can

01:12:15.500 - 01:12:23.840

actually hear everybody who has something to say and I think there's a sort of feeling that although we've only got the resources to do 100 interviews

01:12:23.840 - 01:12:31.500

actually everybody needs to have the opportunity to contribute their experiences because it's such a big thing

01:12:31.500 - 01:12:38.800

it's such a big thing and it did succeed it doesn't get credited I think but actually

01:12:38.800 - 01:12:46.660

it did succeed and all the affirmation I need came from Tony Benn yeah absolutely and people

01:12:47.840 - 01:12:55.780

like to downplay factors I think but actually you can't downplay something as big and monumental as that