00:00:00.000 - 00:00:09.400

This is Jane and Judy, both together, who've been listening to each other talking so far. Did you meet each other at Greenham? Yeah. Yeah.

00:00:09.560 - 00:00:25.160

Yeah. I think I must have met you going round to Orangegate. I don't think I remember you in the summer when I went. 83. July. 83, I think, I didn't meet you.

00:00:25.800 - 00:00:35.380

But soon after that, I did. I can't really, I can remember seeing you over the other side of the fire, and people saying, hello, Jane, so they obviously knew you already. Okay.

00:00:35.840 - 00:00:46.440

Wow. And I think you had set up Orangegate, hadn't you? And I went to join. Okay.

00:00:46.920 - 00:01:05.620

Orangegate. So I remember you being there. And she'd been very creative. I remember just making up songs, you and Annie, making up songs a lot. What was the character of Orangegate?

00:01:06.020 - 00:01:16.000

Because they all had a bit of a different vibe to them. Well, it was the fairest one away from everywhere, so people made up anything about Orangegate. I got told we were, oh, you're the musical gate.

00:01:16.100 - 00:01:23.720

Oh, you're the whatever. I can't remember. Quite a lot of different things people used to say about Orangegate. It was quite music-y.

00:01:24.200 - 00:01:37.820

Maybe. Yeah, maybe. There was a lot of space there, wasn't there, to mess about it. Yeah. I can remember, like in Rabbit Meadow, there was often things, nice things happening.

00:01:38.180 - 00:01:45.840

Yeah. And you could go for a really nice walk backwards into the woods, couldn't you? Right, into the woods, yeah. Which you couldn't really do in, well, I suppose in Green you could.

00:01:47.260 - 00:02:00.520

Yeah. Yeah, you definitely couldn't in places like Indigo, could you? Not unless you had a little fence marked against your head. Yeah.

00:02:01.020 - 00:02:12.380

Although sometimes it was sort of, sometimes the woods were a bit scary, weren't they? You know, there were sometimes vigilantes in the woods. I don't know. Mostly there wasn't, I just remember.

00:02:12.380 - 00:02:27.200

You were stuck in the water there that was all kind of orange-y, I remember. Oh yeah, on the way round towards Yellow, yeah. But you used to go off and go swimming in places and stuff, didn't you? Oh yeah, I did quite a lot of swimming, yeah.

00:02:27.900 - 00:02:48.260

In fact, I did find a picture I'll show you in a minute. Shall I get it now? I don't know if this can go into an archive, it's a bit rude. I had another look while you were talking to Judith, and I found these.

00:02:48.360 - 00:02:59.460

They're not all the photos, but there is one. So this is... What is that? Where's that then? Thatchham Canal.

00:02:59.600 - 00:03:05.740

Oh, right. So there were people dog walking. That's a very good photo. There were people dog walking by us.

00:03:06.400 - 00:03:23.140

So this is a photograph of one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, I think. Greenham women. Yeah, note the bands on the wrist and ankle. In the nip, splashing their feet in the canal.

00:03:23.880 - 00:03:29.780

Yeah, well we'd all just been in, I think. Having a swim. Yeah. It's a great photograph.

00:03:30.220 - 00:03:35.360

And that was by a woman called Issa. Issa. Issa. From Italy.

00:03:35.760 - 00:03:40.840

Italian photographer. That's a lovely photo. Yeah. And there was the locals walking past.

00:03:43.420 - 00:03:48.440

Horrified by Greenham. By nymphs. And maidens. They didn't really care.

00:03:49.980 - 00:04:07.100

There were a few good swimming spots. There was a ford down by Orange Gate. Used to go there, but then I did land on a metal pole and ended up on crutches. Actually, that was an experience because I went to Reading Hospital to get it stitched up.

00:04:07.320 - 00:04:17.360

And they were fine. They were lovely. But I was in a wheelchair to the door and then they said they couldn't give me crutches because they didn't believe I would bring them back because I was from Greenham.

00:04:18.580 - 00:04:36.840

So they left me. Luckily, being from Greenham, there were about six women with me and Dan's pink car. And they carried me to the car and then Anne made me some crutches out of wood. I looked like someone out of Charles Dickens.

00:04:38.080 - 00:04:49.280

They were the most uncomfortable crutches ever. The bits of black. But I couldn't walk otherwise. I mean, God, I wasn't allowed to wait there.

00:04:49.720 - 00:04:57.860

And the hospital wouldn't give me anything. God, I hope they don't do that with homeless people. That was probably illegal. It probably was.

00:04:58.420 - 00:05:06.360

I remember people... There were a lot of things like that where you could have actually just done somebody for something. I'm sure. But you just couldn't be arsed with it.

00:05:06.480 - 00:05:11.120

Yeah. That's ridiculous, isn't it? That is completely terrible. Really bad.

00:05:12.760 - 00:05:29.500

Yeah, I remember going up to London to sign on because we signed on on these crutches. And that was interesting, actually, because people were saying, Hello dear, do you... I was like, I've got crutches.

00:05:30.040 - 00:05:40.260

I've not got hearing impairment. It's made me open my eyes a little bit. It did. And I had a couple of other incidents that happened that put me in that position.

00:05:40.420 - 00:05:51.080

So it made me think about the way people with disabilities are treated. So there's a lot of things like the way benefits worked in those days. Squatting. Yeah.

00:05:51.200 - 00:05:56.520

You know, that made Greenham possible. Yeah. It's very hard to imagine. No, I just found...

00:05:56.520 - 00:06:06.680

We worked... There were so many unemployed people in Brixton you only had to sign on once every three months. So I went and signed on in Brixton, but... Well, I signed on initially in Islington because that was once a month.

00:06:08.460 - 00:06:15.300

But... Postal signing. I mean, I remember going up to the north of Scotland, phoning the job centre and saying, I'm looking for work.

00:06:15.780 - 00:06:24.560

And they accepted it. Couldn't now. No, bloody couldn't. Hitchhiked.

00:06:24.680 - 00:06:31.480

Again, that's another contact. You know, friendships with people all over the place. Yeah, that's... Lovely experiences.

00:06:31.780 - 00:06:38.660

Completely different now, isn't it? Yeah. That means something completely different. I'd be really scared if I thought I wanted to hitchhike now.

00:06:39.340 - 00:06:48.140

Yeah. I mean, I do once... I remember hitching on my own and I was in some... A very...

00:06:48.140 - 00:06:59.540

Some guy in a very fancy car picked me up. And he was a bit creepy. And then I think... He either didn't like what I was saying about where I'd come from,

00:06:59.620 - 00:07:08.860

didn't like Greenham, or he thought the better of whatever bad thing he was thinking of and he just said, right, get out. And I was on a motorway junction.

00:07:10.460 - 00:07:19.640

There was nowhere I was allowed to start, so the police picked me up and they were all right. Took me somewhere I could hitch safely. But mostly...

00:07:19.640 - 00:07:28.340

Didn't have any problems hitchhiking. But I think there were so many women and people generally did it that it was just... Yeah.

00:07:28.600 - 00:07:42.400

Much more possible then than it is now, yeah. So how did... Did you just leave around the same kind of time or were you... Well, we did talk about that the other day,

00:07:42.500 - 00:07:51.640

but I went to that... I kind of went to Wales to the miners' strike and then went to London. You did kind of leave at the same ish time. Yeah, I think...

00:07:51.640 - 00:08:05.320

But you were better at keeping in contact, I think. Yeah, so I went up... I got a place to do carpentry in London, one of those TOPS courses that don't exist anymore.

00:08:05.980 - 00:08:18.100

But it was due to start, I think, the beginning of October or something, so I was going to... So the 10 million women for 10 days thing was happening and it was a bit unbearable.

00:08:18.220 - 00:08:33.280

I had had enough, I think, of that side of things. And I realised that I was getting a bit jaded when I was making up stupid songs about diarrhoea and hiding in the bushes when visitors came and things like that,

00:08:33.320 - 00:08:46.580

which I hadn't before. So when the 10 million women thing happened, I stayed for a couple of days and then went to Brodie. Because I just couldn't cope with...

00:08:46.580 - 00:08:54.420

There obviously wasn't anywhere near 10 million women, thank goodness, but there was vast numbers. There were thousands and thousands of women. And it worked incredibly well.

00:08:55.060 - 00:09:05.220

And it was a great... You know, it wasn't bad, apart from it was a starting point for King's Cross Women's Centre. Split in the camp.

00:09:06.420 - 00:09:13.960

And, you know, amazingly that they did it, because nothing else had worked. And they only split it. They didn't destroy it, whereas everything else,

00:09:14.280 - 00:09:25.320

like wages for housework or whatever, they've destroyed. Somebody did some research, about 50 black women's groups or lesbian groups that had been destroyed by them.

00:09:26.300 - 00:09:33.040

Anyway, but they did split the camp. So... I'm drifting off. So I left.

00:09:33.180 - 00:09:41.180

Anyway, so I left. I lived in a squat in London, but I went back to Greenham just about every weekend for about another year or so.

00:09:42.360 - 00:09:54.680

And I carried on doing actions, like we went down to South Wales to work out what they were doing with microwave radiation. I suppose there was a kind of loose group of women

00:09:54.680 - 00:10:05.240

that was quite big, wasn't there, in London, that knew people who knew people. And there were a load of us in Bonnington Square. And what was that, a place where you and Sally

00:10:05.240 - 00:10:18.660

and Fiona and Gail... Oh, yeah, in Kennington, we were in Kennington. Before that, I was in... Were you at Rebecca's?

00:10:19.060 - 00:10:26.520

No, but in... Just up from Camden, was it called? Kentish Town. Kentish Town, thank you.

00:10:27.600 - 00:10:34.100

Squat there. So it was all women. Like, we were still connected with most of the women that I was meeting.

00:10:34.240 - 00:10:43.420

Well, they weren't all, but a lot connected to Greenham in some way. There were quite a lot of political actions where you kind of easily slid into that thing

00:10:43.420 - 00:10:52.180

where you did it, like stop the city and stuff. Yeah. We kind of went together to things. And they were trying to keep open

00:10:52.180 - 00:11:03.620

the South London Women's Hospital. So I was staying over the night there. We were sleeping in there to try and keep it open and then going to my joinery course

00:11:03.620 - 00:11:16.060

on the other side of town. And did you get, just as, you know, like the frequently asked questions, get just as kind of bored of having to answer the same questions

00:11:16.060 - 00:11:29.920

when you were at Greenham? Would have been handy to have had a worksheet. Well, I think it was kind of a sign of the general exhaustion, really.

00:11:30.720 - 00:11:44.380

I mean, I think... It just was... Like, I don't think I could do it. Because you're young, you could kind of cope with it,

00:11:44.460 - 00:11:56.800

that thing of not really, you know, just having to be doing the same thing with the evictions and not really getting a lot of sleep necessarily because cars would go past in the middle of the night

00:11:56.800 - 00:12:10.060

and all that. And I think... I don't think I recognised how knackered I was with it all. And then the getting fed up of visitors

00:12:10.060 - 00:12:18.840

is just a kind of symptom, isn't it? Because visitors is what you need. Yeah. I mean, the whole thing needed more women to make it work.

00:12:19.080 - 00:12:27.640

Yeah. But by that point, probably, you weren't even particularly welcoming when women came. I think I noticed that in myself.

00:12:27.640 - 00:12:39.800

It made me think, you know, I need a break at least, I need to go away and other women need to be doing this because I can't do it as well anymore. And there's also this kind of weird thing

00:12:39.800 - 00:12:48.240

about who had been there longest and stuff like that, which wasn't particularly useful. Oh. It would be better if there was more of a kind of throughput,

00:12:48.600 - 00:12:56.220

I think, but... What do you mean? What, you mean visitors were asked who'd been there longest? Yeah.

00:12:56.220 - 00:13:05.820

And wanted to know that kind of stuff. They're kind of celebrity type, almost. But it didn't work terribly well, did it? There weren't very many women who played to that, I don't think.

00:13:05.940 - 00:13:25.320

No, I don't think... Like, who's your leader? Who's your spokesperson? No, I don't think there were, but I think it kind of sometimes felt like,

00:13:25.500 - 00:13:31.540

in spite of yourself, that would happen. Yeah, yeah. Because you knew where stuff was, I mean, unless it'd been elected.

00:13:32.100 - 00:13:45.960

Yeah. You know, that kind of thing, or what needed to happen. And how many women actually from Wages for Housework moved in? Well, they took over Yellowgate, basically.

00:13:46.440 - 00:13:59.560

So Wages for Housework took over Yellowgate and many of the women who'd been there a long time, and I think had been there too long, got very jaded, joined them. You know, so that was the...

00:13:59.560 - 00:14:14.100

I shouldn't say... You know, they... They had an analysis about race and gender and class and sexuality that, you know, made a lot of sense, but it was all about guilt-tripping and power and control

00:14:14.100 - 00:14:24.360

rather than making anything better. I don't know how many were there. 20? I don't know how many were at Yellowgate. They had...

00:14:24.360 - 00:14:35.200

It became quite difficult at the other gates because we still needed to go to... ..to get the water. The postal went there,

00:14:35.260 - 00:14:47.220

so we ended up having two different postal addresses. The Yellowgate tried to hide the standpipe. You know, it became all this ridiculous thing that they would try and control the resources.

00:14:47.700 - 00:14:57.320

And I remember witnessing, being shocked, because I was going back at weekends and seeing this, women from the main gate driving round and shouting abuse at the other gates, and you think,

00:14:58.160 - 00:15:04.160

what? What's this? This is like... This is like Rage. What was that? Residents Against... Rage!

00:15:04.800 - 00:15:18.000

There was an organisation called Rage in Newbury called Residents Against the Greenham Encampment, Rage. And there were some quite nasty cartoons in the local press, I seem to remember, about Greenham women.

00:15:18.380 - 00:15:25.900

So we'd get all of that from them, and then there'd be Greenham women driving round and shouting abuse. Oh, God.

00:15:26.080 - 00:15:32.980

It was absolutely unbelievable. I wasn't there then. Laughably. You know, you couldn't get down about...

00:15:32.980 - 00:15:45.760

You could get down about it, but it was like... This is farcical, you know. So they did manage to... And it's hard not to think it was a deliberate ploy

00:15:46.480 - 00:16:00.560

on behalf of somebody or other to try and disrupt various radical groups, including Greenham. And to an extent it was successful, to an extent.

00:16:00.740 - 00:16:10.840

And some very good women, I think, got a bit brainwashed, you know. But that's not their perspective, presumably. So I did try... You know, some good friends,

00:16:11.020 - 00:16:20.580

a couple of women from Orangegate that I really liked, and I remember going to meetings with them because they wanted me to go, and listening and thinking about it.

00:16:20.960 - 00:16:31.540

But because I was like, yeah, that's fine, yeah, go for it, but I also think this, and I'm going to do that, because I was a bit too multifaceted in that approach.

00:16:31.540 - 00:16:39.500

Which is where the whole thing at work took till then, and now it was... So when they realised I wasn't going to join them, they stopped talking to me.

00:16:44.220 - 00:16:55.940

I know it was all pre-internet, but it's quite interesting, if you Google, well, there is not one photograph. There's very little presence of any sort.

00:16:56.020 - 00:17:02.740

No. Which kind of, if you want to do the conspiracy theories, gets even more... I know.

00:17:02.740 - 00:17:11.040

But we just think you can't worry about it. You know, there was always the possibility that there were people infiltrating from anywhere in what we were doing,

00:17:11.160 - 00:17:18.600

and you just have to take responsibility for yourself and do what you think is right and not worry. If they want to get involved with an action, then fair enough.

00:17:19.200 - 00:17:28.840

I think that was a thing that was very powerful about it, because it wasn't possible for... I mean, presumably there were policewomen who came and sat in on meetings,

00:17:29.760 - 00:17:44.440

but it was irrelevant. Because all they'd go away thinking, oh, God, well, what the hell did they decide there? And you were just as likely to spontaneously decide

00:17:44.440 - 00:17:58.960

that it would be a good idea to go in through Violet tonight and see what was happening at the site, you know, whatever. You know, just do whatever came to mind at the time. You couldn't sort of control it in that way,

00:17:58.960 - 00:18:06.060

so I think it did have quite a negative effect, though. What, the basis for housework? Yeah. Oh, God, yeah.

00:18:06.080 - 00:18:21.700

I mean, that was already happening before I went. Like, that thing of... Those very intense meetings where it was all about whether you had the politics right or wrong.

00:18:21.720 - 00:18:32.180

Very shaming as well. It was suddenly a totally different sort of meeting. It wasn't a kind of, you know, discuss, argue, put your point of view, but we're all equal.

00:18:32.780 - 00:18:41.940

It was, like, this is the right way, and you can't speak because you're this, that or the other. It's like the shadow version of Greenham, isn't it? Yeah.

00:18:43.360 - 00:18:50.940

But, you know, then you just... I joined in one of those meetings, thought, I don't like this, and walked away. It's not even in a room, is it?

00:18:50.980 - 00:18:59.580

So you can't... There's no doorway. They can't really control you unless you choose to go with it. But there were some women who, you know...

00:19:01.120 - 00:19:11.760

You know, Katrina may still be at Greenham, for all I know. SHE LAUGHS Because a traveller gave some land to Greenham, between Greengate and Yellow.

00:19:12.720 - 00:19:26.300

And the last time I went, which must have been... Well, it was probably 15 years after I left Greenham, she was there in a bender on this land, but I didn't see her.

00:19:27.660 - 00:19:39.100

So some land that was owned by a traveller was given to the Greenham camp and presumably still belongs to the Greenham camp. Yeah, and for all I know, there's a couple of women still there.

00:19:41.480 - 00:19:49.500

I like the idea that the undercover policewoman would leave going, I don't know what happened. SHE LAUGHS Like, I was there for the full four hours,

00:19:49.500 - 00:20:01.140

but I don't know what the final conclusion was. Yeah. And we didn't do things by... I mean, I know there was a meeting at least once a week, wasn't there?

00:20:01.360 - 00:20:13.560

But it wasn't like that was the main driver, actually. No. So it wasn't like an organisation where you have to go to the meeting to make the decision to make it happen.

00:20:13.800 - 00:20:19.240

It was like... It was mainly about money, wasn't it? I think those meetings... Was it? I don't know.

00:20:19.320 - 00:20:29.440

There did seem to be very long money meetings. Wasn't there a money meeting and then there were random other meetings? Yeah, probably. Something like that.

00:20:33.960 - 00:20:43.340

Whilst not deciding what was going to happen at those meetings, it did re-bond you, even if to the point of, like, I still can't stand you. Yeah.

00:20:43.420 - 00:20:54.880

But it was still a way that you all got together and... Yeah, and you also found out what other people were doing because you didn't read about it in the paper or anything, so someone might have done some really great thing

00:20:54.880 - 00:21:00.220

and you didn't know anything about it, did you, until... No. People might say, or... Yeah.

00:21:00.600 - 00:21:06.980

It was partly the social thing, wasn't it, of... Yeah. And people would share ideas and do it. Yeah.

00:21:07.100 - 00:21:18.240

Yeah, you want to do that. Anyone want to come to Wales? Well, there's this... Somebody's offered... Somebody really wants us to go and speak at this thing or that thing or go to Iceland or go to France or...

00:21:18.240 - 00:21:33.240

Where did you go then? Where did you go on those visits? Did you go to Iceland? I didn't. I wanted to, but I wasn't assertive enough to go to Iceland. I went to Paris because nobody else wanted to go, basically.

00:21:34.540 - 00:21:54.600

I think I got the phone call and... So the Young Communist Congress of France got me and they produced these enormous posters with my name on them. Were you, like, the main speaker?

00:21:55.060 - 00:22:06.100

No, well, I don't know. There were lots of speakers. It was actually very interesting because we were meeting people from all over the world, so I only found out about things like the New Jewel movement in Grenada

00:22:06.100 - 00:22:19.300

and what had been happening with the United States there. Through going to that, I wouldn't have found out about that otherwise. There were people from all over the world there. But I do remember getting a standing ovation.

00:22:19.320 - 00:22:32.660

It was really bizarre. Really bizarre. I think, you know, if I'd just not said anything, it would have been perfect, but then I do... So I remember this. So, so, so. Solidarity. So, so, so. Everybody. 2,000 people.

00:22:33.480 - 00:22:46.280

Oh, my God. Fantastic. But then, when I had a workshop with a few hundred people in it... You can't do a workshop with a few hundred people. And I said, oh, no, I did French at school, I'll do it.

00:22:46.340 - 00:23:06.900

I don't need a translator. So what extent do you think going to the movement created unrealistic ambitions among women? Oh, God. I obviously... I probably did. I did, really.

00:23:07.060 - 00:23:21.900

But, anyway, they weren't very happy with what I said, because, on the one hand, I was against the American nuclear presence, but I was just as equally against the Russian nuclear presence. And I had quite a few questions about, but how could that be?

00:23:24.460 - 00:23:35.240

Surely they're just defending... Anyway. But it was interesting, you know, it was an interesting experience. Did you get to do any of those kind of...?

00:23:35.800 - 00:23:48.440

I never went on any foreign things. I did some talks, like, roundabout. But it's like, as Jane said, I mean, really, you could have just said anything and people would have just gone, yeah!

00:23:48.940 - 00:24:01.660

Because, you know, it just was, like, flavour of the moment, really. C&D meetings and things, they were, like, big in those days. Like, you know, you could... And there were women for peace.

00:24:01.660 - 00:24:13.220

50 people easily. Groups and things as well. Yeah. So we've just been having a bit of a chat about what the Greenham legacy is.

00:24:13.300 - 00:24:24.700

What do we think is...? It's very difficult to know that kind of thing, isn't it? Because there's... Some movements are of their time,

00:24:24.840 - 00:24:38.320

and then threads come from that and from other things, and then things fade out and come in again. I was talking to Afra about Me Too the other day. Oh, yeah.

00:24:38.480 - 00:24:48.360

Because when that first started, I was thinking, well, that's totally fucking obvious, isn't it? You know, why is that anything? Why is it such a big deal?

00:24:48.360 - 00:25:00.140

I mean, not why is it... No, yeah. But actually, I think it has been a real thing for loads of young women, and it's that re-finding out, isn't it,

00:25:00.200 - 00:25:16.320

where you kind of didn't realise that that wasn't... It's not acceptable to be treated like that, yeah. Yeah, but that somehow that had been forgotten. Well, was there a point when most people thought that

00:25:16.320 - 00:25:30.300

and then it was forgotten? I don't know whether I've got a warped idea about feminism and how far it went because of where I was. I also think that with the best will in the world,

00:25:31.160 - 00:25:43.960

the older women, however old they are, are getting on doing what they're doing, and they somehow think that by osmosis or telepathy or something, the things that they learned have been passed on to the next lot,

00:25:43.960 - 00:25:55.240

and we're learning maybe that we have a job to do because actually they didn't get passed on, and then I wonder if the younger ones go, well, you must think it's OK,

00:25:55.440 - 00:26:06.820

else you'd have done something about it. And so maybe there's a bit of a... Yeah. Because there aren't organisations that are...

00:26:06.820 - 00:26:20.680

You know, there isn't a party that you join and you pass this information. There's always that, I suppose, the pressure from this... I haven't even used the word patriarchy for years,

00:26:20.780 - 00:26:32.880

but from that, that you're all right now, you don't need to do anything now, it's all all right, you've got equality now, there, there, go back into your houses or whatever,

00:26:33.720 - 00:26:44.180

go back and do the dishes because you've got it all now. Well, go out and have a great career as a... Whatever. Making pornography, you know, because that's all OK now

00:26:44.180 - 00:26:59.960

because we've done feminism and so this is... So there's always that constant pressure coming back the other way to sweep women's power away, I think. I mean, like I was saying when you weren't in the room,

00:27:00.100 - 00:27:16.740

I remember feminism becoming like a dirty word, that it was hard to say you were feminist. Whereas it feels like it's come back into use again now. Quite recently.

00:27:17.740 - 00:27:31.160

Well, yeah, it does seem like there's more of an awareness of gender politics than there has been for a while, but I don't really know. I mean, in terms of the legacy of Greenham,

00:27:31.180 - 00:27:45.680

I don't know how that relates to that. I suppose I think that... There's... Oh, I don't know.

00:27:45.760 - 00:28:00.300

I mean, for me, I think I've sort of thought from that... Oh, that can be... For me, that can be a really positive thing to work with a group of women that I've done in loads of different places in my life.

00:28:00.580 - 00:28:07.940

Yeah. And I... But then that also was women's movement stuff, wasn't it? Happening at the same time.

00:28:07.940 - 00:28:13.240

Yeah, or before. Before. Yeah. All those consciousness-raising groups.

00:28:14.160 - 00:28:25.860

Greenham kind of came out of that in one way. And was a massive consciousness-raising group. Constantly, yeah. But not about everything.

00:28:27.100 - 00:28:45.360

No. I mean... You were saying not about everything, I suppose. I finished my sentence, but I was going to say,

00:28:45.440 - 00:28:53.180

but not just about sexual politics, about consciousness-raising, about how everything interconnected, really. Yeah.

00:28:53.460 - 00:29:00.800

It was... I think... It's interesting you said that, because I used to have this thing that I was too young for the...

00:29:00.800 - 00:29:18.360

I used to feel really pissed off that I'd missed all of that, but actually, I probably didn't. I just had it very intensely around the fire, constantly. I remember reading, you know,

00:29:18.440 - 00:29:33.240

this sort of feminist, early feminist stuff, because I was just a child when all that was going on. I think maybe there's some sort of stuff that is maybe more known in whatever...

00:29:35.480 - 00:29:46.060

lefty community, or something about humour and creativity. Yes. Blatantly being a useful tool.

00:29:46.440 - 00:29:54.200

Yes. I mean, I don't really know, because I don't... I wasn't involved in loads of stuff beforehand,

00:29:54.300 - 00:30:05.180

but it feels to me like that's true. It's very different from the kind of... Because I was a shop steward a few times, and it's very different from that sort of movement towards change,

00:30:05.940 - 00:30:14.680

because it was very creative, and you couldn't kind of clamp down on it, or fix it, or anything. There was always somebody having another idea

00:30:14.680 - 00:30:23.480

to look at things in another way, or get people to look at things in another way, or just to get attention, really. Very irreverent.

00:30:24.020 - 00:30:37.000

Irreverent, funny, creative, using community and connection, and not one person standing out there being a hero or anything. Yeah, you're right.

00:30:37.280 - 00:30:52.640

I think that is something that I would take on now in things that I'm doing, that you could do something quite creative and make a change. Somebody else has talked about anti-tracking,

00:30:53.140 - 00:31:04.740

and just any of the environmental protests that involve... I mean, people used to sit in in buildings, but they didn't used to take over a tree.

00:31:05.360 - 00:31:12.300

Yeah. That seems to be... They seem to think that's part of... Yeah, maybe.

00:31:13.240 - 00:31:21.600

I mean, some of that was going on. Not fracking, but I do remember there being various bypass protests at the same time as Greenham,

00:31:21.700 - 00:31:30.400

with people in trees. But it always seemed... It seemed to be that when there were men involved in the protests, there was a lot more violence.

00:31:31.000 - 00:31:42.160

And I don't know. At the time, I thought it was because the male protesters couldn't keep it together to act in a non-violent way, but it may just be that clash of men

00:31:42.880 - 00:31:54.320

and how the police responded to men. I don't know. A mixture of both, probably. If you were to just have a little image of Greenham,

00:31:54.800 - 00:32:11.880

like a moment, do you have something that sums it up for you? Like your time there, or just... It's not very political.

00:32:11.960 - 00:32:22.000

It's probably sitting round a fire, just talking and drinking and eating. But, I mean, I couldn't do that anywhere. I don't know about Greenham.

00:32:24.820 - 00:32:38.840

Fence. The fence in the background. A lot of blockading. A lot of sitting linked, armed in front of a gate

00:32:39.540 - 00:32:52.160

was a bit of it as well. There isn't a lot of other times in my life when I can think, when I just have the leisure to sit and talk for all day,

00:32:52.440 - 00:33:04.520

if it happened to be the conversation carried on. I can't think of any other times, really. And what about those... Feeling very free.

00:33:07.220 - 00:33:17.740

Well constrained. Yeah, and just thinking... Just that thing of thinking, well... What are they going to do?

00:33:18.520 - 00:33:29.080

There's nothing they can actually... They can't make you think differently. Mm-mm. As the song says...

00:33:31.600 - 00:33:42.140

They can't forbid you... Nearly everything they can't forbid you to... Sorry. So what about the singing, then?

00:33:45.800 - 00:33:50.880

I don't know. Do you want some... We can record some singing if you want. It's up to you. Go on.

00:33:51.700 - 00:34:03.620

What do you want to do, then? I want one of your mischievous kisses. There is a whole sheaf of lyrics here. Various sorts.

00:34:04.600 - 00:34:17.460

There's a cat joining in by sliding about on the photographs. So... That's one of the song sheets from some demonstrations I actually made. That's very nice. Who did that?

00:34:17.660 - 00:34:28.780

I don't know. Yeah, this is pre-clipart design, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely. When everything was hand-drawn.

00:34:28.980 - 00:34:43.760

We used to do a newsletter that we hand-drew and hand-wrote... And then sent out in the post. I know. I would so much like to read one of those and see what it was like.

00:34:44.240 - 00:34:57.100

Because it used to be a real labour of love, doing that. Sylva Main wrote this one, which is The Dragon Cries Her Tears In The Night. I loved it, but I can't remember the tune. I don't think I know that one.

00:34:58.160 - 00:35:17.120

My sister gets people singing as her job. That's the legacy of Greenham. I would love to have those lyrics to give to her. Oh, there's a bit of paper from South London.

00:35:21.200 - 00:35:29.220

Nicked. Sorry, I'm just trying to find... 1, 2, 3 o'clock, 4 o'clock, snip. 5, 6, 7 o'clock, 8 o'clock, snip.

00:35:29.680 - 00:35:54.420

9, 10, 11 o'clock, 12 o'clock, snip. We'll go and snip around the booth tonight. I'm trying to... That one had a sort of harmony to it.

00:35:54.660 - 00:36:05.120

We don't want your laws. We don't like your cause. We won't fight your wars. Charge them down, Greenham.

00:36:05.540 - 00:36:15.680

And there was some kind of... I can't remember. There's some things... I'll just read these out while you're looking.

00:36:15.860 - 00:36:25.160

Down at Greenham Monastery, financed by the KGB. Oh, yeah, that's quite a good one. Down at Greenham Monastery, financed by the KGB. Dirty women, squatters in their mud.

00:36:26.600 - 00:36:38.220

Mostly vegetarian, when we're not devouring them. Bananas and other forms of scum. In the bushes, we're... We haven't got that bit.

00:36:38.780 - 00:36:53.920

Copies of Karl Marx in plastic bags. Probably got that. Mr Andropov supplies us with our whisker. Mr Castro makes sure we're kept in door.

00:36:53.920 - 00:37:02.260

Wish he would. Most of us are outside our dictators. Who can say Ronald Reagan brings us hope? Brings us hope.

00:37:06.100 - 00:37:19.440

Shameless Hussies, but that's not a Greenham song, really. That's quite a good one. This collection was got together by the Hackney Greenham Drummer's Affinity Group.

00:37:19.440 - 00:37:31.860

LAUGHTER Isn't that lovely? As opposed to Hackney Greenham double bass, I think. As a contribution to Sound Around the Bass,

00:37:32.080 - 00:37:40.760

December 11th, 1983. Sound Around the Bass. Please make copies and give them to others. Printed by Calvert's North Star Press.

00:37:42.120 - 00:37:51.860

Oh, it's a different world. This is a song about the bent ladies. That's Rebecca's, isn't it? That's Rebecca's song.

00:37:55.040 - 00:38:08.280

Both together, ladies, we're content. Happy birthday to you. We're shameless hussies, we don't give a damn. We love our world, we're sound, we're bright, we're loud.

00:38:08.560 - 00:38:17.420

And alive, and alive to be free. Men call us names to be nasty and rude, like lesbian, man, hater, witch, prostitute. But laugh, cos half of it's true.

00:38:20.240 - 00:38:33.440

The minute you came to the base, I could see you were the men of destruction. We'll be defenders. I'm just trying to find some of the uniquely

00:38:35.740 - 00:38:45.060

Orange Gate songs that I remember. Oh, yeah, that's the epic from Body Piece Camp. I'm not singing that. LAUGHS

00:38:46.300 - 00:39:00.520

Oh, there's Annie knitting and picketing. Oh, yes, I've got one of those, a spare that you could take if you want. So that is one of yours.

00:39:00.860 - 00:39:16.500

The PC said to me As he poured water on my tea Ah, this land is M.R.D. Kept primarily for crews and military

00:39:18.680 - 00:39:32.700

Oh, when you joined the force Was it to run through course? Twelve men in a van With a watering can

00:39:32.700 - 00:39:49.760

Was that how you began? Oh, the PC replied As he kicked the locks aside Ah, first some doubts arise

00:39:49.760 - 00:39:59.100

But you hear so many lies Smoke gets in your eyes That was quite nice. Fantastic.

00:40:00.400 - 00:40:20.400

A Judy and her sister wrote that. Oh, this one, Lily of the Arc Lights. I really like that one. Oh, yeah, that's a good one.

00:40:20.600 - 00:40:28.220

Underneath the arc lights By the old green gate I took out my bolt cutters My hands could hardly wait

00:40:28.220 - 00:40:35.260

I sniffed to her touch She sniffed to me We both could see The common breeze

00:40:35.260 - 00:40:45.960

Oh, Lily of the Arc Lights A-sniffing in the rain As we crawled into the base We held our cutters tight

00:40:45.960 - 00:40:54.720

Wondering if the U.S.A. Would shoot at us on sight I sneaked along with her She sneaked with me

00:40:55.260 - 00:41:02.780

We both could see The common breeze Oh, Lily of the Arc Lights Will this all be in vain?

00:41:03.500 - 00:41:11.820

Closer to the missile silos My heart began to quiver Was it Lily that feared the base? Or just a little shiver?

00:41:12.500 - 00:41:18.580

I looked towards her She looked to me We both could see The common breeze

00:41:18.580 - 00:41:25.900

Oh, Lily of the Arc Lights It wasn't Jenny or Leslie or Katrina or Sabina Or any of the others

00:41:25.900 - 00:41:34.480

It was Jay Cutting up the silo fence My knees began to turn to jelly But standing strongly next to me

00:41:34.480 - 00:41:40.300

Was Lily in her wellies I snipped towards her She snipped to me We both could see

00:41:40.300 - 00:41:49.460

The common breeze Oh, Lily of the Arc Lights We have everything to gain Running up the missile silos

00:41:49.460 - 00:41:58.100

Planting lots of trees Should I have given my heart away Or kept it in debris? Stay pure, cold and sound ideologically

00:41:59.020 - 00:42:11.080

Or we could be completely silly Oh, Lily of the Arc Lights Is this true romance or pain? When we got to Newbury Nick

00:42:11.080 - 00:42:17.060

We shared a little cell We wrote on walls Sang lots of songs Drove all the men to hell

00:42:17.060 - 00:42:22.760

I snipped towards her She snipped to me We both could see The common free

00:42:22.760 - 00:42:31.260

Oh, Lily of the Arc Lights Will I see you again? Does it carry on? No, that's it.

00:42:31.420 - 00:42:40.700

That's fantastic. There was a very good acoustic in those cells in Newbury. I really remember one time

00:42:40.700 - 00:42:47.820

when me and Elna and Sue Popper were there and Elna was singing it was about what we were going to have to drink when we got out

00:42:47.820 - 00:42:54.520

and Elna was singing Sue was going a pint of lager and I was going

00:42:54.520 - 00:43:04.080

a glass of Baileys and Elna was singing and a pint of bitter beer and it was like we were in separate cells

00:43:04.080 - 00:43:14.240

but we could hear each other and it sounded really nice and then we did go to the pub after. There was that

00:43:16.540 - 00:43:23.320

G.Elegate song but you've probably got that What are the bugs that a green woman has? That's a bit rude.

00:43:23.320 - 00:43:32.120

I don't think I know that one. What are the bugs that a green woman has at the Peace Camp, Newbury, Berkshire? I'll tell you now of some that I know

00:43:32.120 - 00:43:39.860

and the rest you've probably got them. Herpes, craps and biting fleas diarrhea up to your knees trash bags, small pots

00:43:40.380 - 00:43:53.700

small pots for Newbury to stuff Ringworms, scabies This does come back to me now. There's some tree head rabies

00:43:53.700 - 00:44:02.140

at the Peace Camp, Newbury, Berkshire What are the names that I can't remember What are the names that

00:44:02.140 - 00:44:09.680

vigilantes call us at the Peace Camp Newbury, Berkshire I'll tell you some of the ones that I know and those I missed

00:44:09.680 - 00:44:17.360

you'll surely pardon smelly cunts and dirty hags duped up lesbians and slags communists and traitors

00:44:17.360 - 00:44:24.980

to the plague killers and witches and buggy, dirty bitches at the Peace Camp, Newbury, Berkshire

00:44:24.980 - 00:44:35.780

What are the questions that visitors ask at the Peace Camp, Newbury, Berkshire I'll tell you some of the ones that I know and those I missed, you'll probably ask them

00:44:35.780 - 00:44:45.400

Are there many of you here? Is it cold and are you queer? Where do you get your water from? Where do you get

00:44:45.400 - 00:44:53.200

your water from? Will you die for the cause? Do you shit in the course? at the Peace Camp, Newbury, Berkshire

00:44:54.380 - 00:45:01.520

What are the things you hear the women say at the Peace Camp, Newbury, Berkshire I'll tell you now of if

00:45:01.520 - 00:45:09.540

done some that I know and those I miss are confidential I can't stand the bloody smite past the joint I want to tow

00:45:09.540 - 00:45:17.240

What's that in the bushes? Could it be a bloke? There's a turd in the road a policeman's dropped his load at the Peace Camp, Newbury, Berkshire

00:45:19.140 - 00:45:26.960

And then there was a granny's action and they added another verse on that It's just like, what you do is humour to get you through

00:45:26.960 - 00:45:39.780

basically That's another of yours Raindrops keep falling on my head Is it?

00:45:40.640 - 00:45:48.520

I don't even remember that Look, you can have that Thank you I'm absolutely sure

00:45:48.520 - 00:45:56.460

they're going to want to record you doing these and more of them properly Raindrops keep falling on my head

00:45:56.460 - 00:46:03.440

That's cause the bailiff's got my bender and my bed I'd like a cup of tea

00:46:03.440 - 00:46:12.380

but we've put the water in the car that's gone to Newbury Oh how silly but

00:46:12.380 - 00:46:19.720

this is bender is my bile It's got all the poles and I'll be building in a while

00:46:19.720 - 00:46:26.800

evictions come and go but all that seems to happen is this Peace Camp just grows and grows

00:46:27.620 - 00:46:45.340

everybody That's been a bit hopeful there She hasn't Andy's version

00:46:45.940 - 00:46:52.300

This woman, woman tiger woman tiger helped to save the world Oh yeah, and then it went

00:46:52.300 - 00:47:00.900

woman toilet, woman bat what the hell do you think you're at people wearing a woolly hat go back to Russia

00:47:01.940 - 00:47:10.520

go back to Russia nearer Russia and far away go back to Russia It's deteriorating this interview

00:47:14.420 - 00:47:23.640

This is the end That was the end Oh God

00:47:25.020 - 00:47:31.880

No cause that is that in Carrie Greenham home that song I can't remember That is Carrie Greenham home

00:47:31.880 - 00:47:38.820

isn't it, that's the song Yes it is and she just said some of the things that people

00:47:40.080 - 00:47:46.780

had shouted at us Instead of what we'd like them to be saying People did say go back to Russia

00:47:46.780 - 00:47:56.720

quite a lot didn't they, it was quite funny I don't think there was anyone who had any connection whatsoever with Russia but

00:47:56.720 - 00:48:05.040

it was about every other Apart from the Spetsnaz training Spetsnaz Yeah

00:48:06.820 - 00:48:13.540

Anyway So many So that's time I think it's about time

00:48:14.820 - 00:48:21.900

we're allowed to go You know what she said she'd had a really long interview before I was due out