00:00:00.000 - 00:00:21.180

So Jan, how did you come to be part of the peace movement? I've been involved with the Peace Pledge Union and CND since I was at school. And Greenham came along while I was a student, I was at university, and the local CND group in Stoke, which is where I was at college,

00:00:22.280 - 00:00:42.440

decided to do a day visit down to Greenham to the peace camp. And it was the weekend of the big December demonstration in 1982, so there were a lot of women from all parts of the country, and it was Embrace the Base, and it was just a really fantastic experience.

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So I'd kind of been involved a bit with the peace movement in general terms before Greenham, and then that was kind of a trigger for me, and I became much more active as a result of that experience. And how did you hear about Greenham?

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I knew about it, I knew about the Welsh Women's March to Greenham through the local CND group, it'd just been something we'd talked about, and it started off with a bit of a, there's a bunch of women doing this, they're going to walk to this base for the day,

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and then we heard that they'd decided they were going to stay. And that was just a bit like, wow, they've just decided to stay there! And so I think it was through that network, it was through the peace network, but then of course it got in the press, and the news started reporting it.

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And I suppose right at the beginning it was quite benign reporting, it was just like, oh ha ha, this bunch of crazy women are doing this, isn't it sweet, and give them a couple of days and they'll go home to their husbands and children.

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So it was very kind of low-key and a bit of a joke almost to start with. Yeah. And how did you travel there, and who did you go with? We went on the coach, and again it was the local CND group and a women's group in Stoke that together had kind of got it together.

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So there was a big coach, I think it was about 40, 46, 48 seats or something like that, a big one. And it was full. And then there were a couple of people took cars, so we had another, I don't know, maybe about six people travelled in cars as well, but I went on the coach.

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And how long were you there, were you just there for Embrace the Base or did you stay? Yeah, no, that time we were just there for Embrace the Base, and most of us came back on the same day. So we went down on the Saturday for Embrace the Base,

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most of us came back on the Saturday night. There were, I think, three or four people who just decided on the day, oh, they were going to stay over, because there was a big thing going on on the Sunday, which was a kind of base invasion, really, going over the fence.

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So some people stayed for that. But we did, of course, on that occasion, I think it was, I think it was then that we pushed the fence over. I can't remember now.

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The fence went over quite a few times. And was Embrace the Base the first time you went down, and then you went back multiple times? Yeah, so I went down for that, and then about a week later,

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I went and stayed a weekend. And I did that a couple of times, and then I stayed for, I think, about six months. And then I, because I'd been a student, and I'd left university by then. So I think I stayed about six months, and then I got a job.

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So I went to go to work, which meant that from that point on, for quite a few years, what I was doing was going down on weekends. I used to go down on a Friday night and come back on a Monday morning, and I used to, when I took my holidays from work,

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I used to go and spend my holiday time there. And what was the decision process that led to you saying, I'm going to stay for this amount of time? I'm not honestly sure there was one, to be fair.

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I think initially, it was just like, I want to go and spend some more time there. And I think when I stayed, it was just, I'll just stay another day or two, or I'll just stay another few days. And then it became another week, and I had to stay a little bit longer.

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And there was, oh, there might be something going on, or there might be an action that I'm interested in. Or much later on, we started getting visits from women in other parts of the world, and that was like, oh, I'll just wait and see what they've got to say.

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So I don't think there was ever a plan. It was just a kind of day-by-day thing. And which gate were you at? Mostly Blue Gate.

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So I think the first time I went, I stayed at Green Gate. And then I found Blue Gate, which was a kind of goddess gate, a bit of kind of goddess spirituality and stuff, which suited me. So yeah, most of the time, I considered that to be my sort of home gate.

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Sometimes, some of the gates were really, really small, and they had very few women. And they'd sometimes say, can we have volunteers? Violet Gate, I remember, was always really small.

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And Indigo Gate. I think Indigo Gate was the one that was in the woods. So it was quite vulnerable, and it got abandoned after a while because there were some, you know,

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quite often there were attacks on women by local people. So they were quite vulnerable, some of them. Yeah. And was that the decision that led you to stay at that gate?

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It just suited who you were and your personality? Yeah. Yeah. And did you, and so from what we've spoken to other women about,

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each gate kind of had their distinct personalities. Did that come across to you quite clearly when you were there as well? Not immediately. I think there were certain things that were really clear.

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So Main Gate, Yellow Gate, was obviously the kind of focal point for a lot of demonstrations, a lot of actions, because it was where most of the vehicles were going in and out.

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It was where a lot of the road blockages took place. And it had been the original site, I think, so a lot of people kind of deferred a bit to Yellow Gate. And a lot of the people who were very involved

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in the organisation of things were based there. Green Gate was where the sanctuary was, so there was some safety in that. We had a permission from a landowner

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to use a certain piece of land to put stuff in, like supplies and tents and stuff like that. So that was a nature gate, really, and it was very much around kind of the natural world

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and that kind of stuff. As I said, Blue Gate was a goddess gate. I'm not really sure about the others, to be honest. And some of them kind of came and went a little bit.

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They weren't established all of the time. Yeah. And did you make friends when you were there, obviously you were there for six years,

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and kind of meet people? And did those networks continue after you left Greenham or were they more specific to your time there? They were specific.

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One or two people I stayed in touch with for quite a long time afterwards, but no, it was mostly specific. It was around Greenham.

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It was around activity linked to that and supporting women who were imprisoned because of Greenham or because of the wider peace movement.

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Yeah. And what did it mean for you that Greenham was a woman-only space? For me, that was the point of it, really.

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That was the whole point of it. It was kind of a different way of doing protest because a lot of the political activity that I'd been involved in before

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was very dominated by men and men's kind of ideology about how you do political activity. And so it was, you know,

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I'd kind of as a young person been involved with the Socialist Workers' Party and a lot of that was about political activity. Political activity!

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When we might do that. And, you know, you'd have these endless meetings in people's flats and it would all be great and then it'd be like,

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oh, shall we have a cup of tea? And all of the men in the room would stare at the one or two women who were there and it's like, you know,

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go put the kettle on, love. So, you know, I'm talking about the kind of late 1970s. So this was different. It was a kind of whole refreshing thing about,

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oh, wow, women can just do this stuff on their own. And that sense of power but also playfulness and humour and, you know, it wasn't too pervasive.

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And has that kind of, after you left Greenham, have you then taken forward the idea that you prefer women-only spaces and champion them and things like that

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or is it just something you use? I still do. I mean, you know, I'm a lesbian and have, you know, been openly out

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since I was about 15. And I've lived like that. My partner and I got married at Greenham. So, you know...

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Did you meet at Greenham? We didn't, no. We met through work. But we'd both independently been involved

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with things at Greenham. So then it was like, oh, OK, well, we'll go together then. So we started going together to Greenham. And then we decided that we were going to get married.

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And, of course, it wasn't legal. There was no legal marriage in those days. So it was just going to be for us, really. So we organised this marriage ceremony,

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a hand-fasting and a bit of singing and stuff at Blue Gate in 1985. And we got a friend of ours to officiate. And word kind of spread.

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And on the day, we were supposed to be going down... We lived in Walsall then, in the Midlands. We were supposed to be going down on a coach with a whole bunch of people

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who were coming for our wedding. And we slept in and missed the coach. So we were thinking, oh, should we not bother then? Well, we can't now.

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We've invited all these people. And so we drove down. We got down to Greenham. We got to Blue Gate.

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And Marion, who was officiating, said, oh, I'm so glad you've got it. She said, all these people have been turning up, going, there's a wedding.

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There's going to be a wedding. So I think we had about, I don't know, it was a day of a big demonstration. I think we had about 3,000 women at our wedding.

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And it was just fantastic. You know, it was just really funny. And years later, I would meet people who said, you know, oh, I was at Greenham.

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I remember one time these two women got married at Blue Gate. And I'd be going, yeah, it was me. It was me and Chris.

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That's incredible. Yeah. What an amazing thing. Yeah.

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And, oh, that's such a gorgeous story. And in terms of nonviolent direct action, how did you feel that worked for you? And how did, if you did use it,

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how did you use it when you were at Greenham? So I believe, and I continue to believe, it is the only way that you can do protest. Peaceful protest is the only way you can do it.

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Yeah. And I'm still doing it. So I don't know whether you know, but in Sheffield there's been a big campaign

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about them cutting the trees down. Oh, yeah. The council got a private company cutting down these 100-year-old trees

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because of money, to save money. So we weren't going to let that happen. And there was a huge campaign out here when we moved here, actually,

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just about 14 months ago, of NVDA people standing under the trees and standing around the trees and people climbing into the trees and stuff.

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So, of course, we had to join in with that because you can't have these things going on right under your nose and not be a part of it. So, yeah, I think we got here in the November

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and we'd been here about a fortnight when we started joining in with that stuff and we didn't unpack until January. But, yes, I mean, to me,

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the whole point about it is you are saying, I'm resisting you, but you can't allow for it to become violent or aggressive

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because they have more power than you and you're going to get damaged if you do that. But also that's playing their game and the whole point of it was about showing

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a different way of being in the world, I suppose. Like the fantastic thing we used to do with wool. So make webs around the fence and around ourselves so we were all tied together.

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So when they came to pick us up and drag us away, we were all kind of attached to each other and it didn't slow them down much because they used to come along with their cutters

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and snip through it all and whatever. But it was symbolic as much as anything to be different about how you are in the world. And how did you feel that the men on the base

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reacted to those sorts of things that was going on? Was it kind of bafflement at what was happening? A lot of them were. A lot of them were American.

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A lot of the squaddies were American and they were young and they were quite intimidated by some of it, I think. They didn't know how to deal with it.

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So they kind of veered between taunting and shouting abuse and complaining about us to being completely silent. At one point I think they must have been told

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don't interact with them. Because sometimes it was quite friendly. You would be having a dialogue about we're doing this because...

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How do you feel about what you're doing on your side of the fence? How do you square that with being a decent human being? And I think their people in charge

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didn't like them engaging with us in that kind of a way because obviously it led to them questioning and losing their own confidence and whatever.

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And some of the women's squaddies were quite disturbed about the whole thing and I know at least two who jumped ship and came over the fence and joined us.

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So there was obviously concern about whether they might end up colluding with us or agreeing with us or whatever. There would have been very few, I think, that did that.

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But yeah, it was different. And some of them were quite vindictive and unpleasant and I wouldn't have wanted to meet them on our side of the fence.

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But most of them, yeah, they were just young kids really. Young men. Mostly men. And what was your relationship like

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with the local residents at Newbury, if any? Oh, really variable. So there were what we call vigilante squads, which were young men from Newbury

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who used to come and cause damage and menace to the women. There were some reports of women being raped and attacked, particularly at the more isolated gates.

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There was certainly things like throwing dog shit at us and that kind of stuff and coming around at night with flashlights and stuff like that.

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There were people who disapproved of the camp and so if you were in the town they would be sneery and, you know, unpleasant. And there were other people who were very supportive of us

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and would bring us things and would just come and offer encouragement. There was a local Quaker group who were just fantastic. Every week they would come, they'd bring hot food,

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they'd bring sleeping bags, they'd bring waterproofs, they'd bring boots. They used to come and hold a prayer vigil, like a silent vigil at Bluegate every week.

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That really freaked out the squad. They absolutely hated us because they didn't know what to do about it. But yeah, they were lovely.

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They were just such lovely people. But, you know, some of the people who didn't come near the camp, I don't think ever. The first time I went on my own,

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I went on the train and I got off at the train in Newbury and I was kind of standing there with my rucksack looking a bit lost and this guy came up to me and he said, you look a bit lost, love.

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And I said, in all innocence and naivety, I'm looking for the Greenham Common camp. And he went, oh. He said, I can give you a lift up there if you like.

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He said, chuck it back in the back and get in the car. And I did. So here I was about 22, 23, something like 23 probably, getting in the car with this strange man I'd never met,

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an elderly man who was a local resident who might have been completely anti the whole thing and dangerous. And he very cheerfully drove me up and dropped me off at Blue Gate and said, I think this is the nearest gate for you, love.

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You'll be fine there. Wow. And it was just, when I think about it now, I think, God, how naive and foolish.

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But actually, maybe he was more typical of a lot of the people who lived there. They might not have been enthusiastic about the camp. And there was such a lot of propaganda about what we were doing up there and that we were wrecking the woods and we were causing damage

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and we were putting sanitary towels in the base and all sorts of things like that. There was all sorts of things being reported every week, most of which was rubbish.

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But a lot of people, that's all they would have seen, I guess. They would have just assumed there was stuff about us being violent and attacking squaddies who were coming back from leave to get in the base, things like that.

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And it was just, it was the antithesis of what we were about. Anybody who'd bothered to come and look and talk to us would have known that that was just nonsense. Yeah.

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And did the kind of media reaction, did that affect anybody on base, in the camp, about what people were saying about you? Yeah, I think a lot of people were very distressed about it and disturbed about it, and for quite a long time

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tried to put out answers to that. And then we realised there was no point because our letters that said, dear sir, this is all rubbish and please come and see for yourself,

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just never got published and never got anywhere. So in the first days, I think the early years, there was quite a lot of anxiety and upset about what was being said, and of course in the national press there were things being said,

00:20:23.500 - 00:20:37.600

so people would go home and then they'd get this stuff parroted back to them. And then at one point, I can't remember when it was, at some point there was like a news blackout of the things that were happening.

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So then nothing got into the press, nothing was ever said, and a lot of people thought the camp had closed and had just gone home because there was no more news. And that might have been after the cruise missiles arrived,

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and we started going out and following them. When they went on manoeuvres, we would track them and we'd follow them. We had like a telephone tree, so people would ring each other, bearing in mind that we didn't have mobile phones and there was no internet.

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We did quite a good job, I think, of tracking where they went when they took the cruise missile out on manoeuvres, and we would follow them and we'd be saying to local people, you do know what's driving through your village, don't you?

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You do know what they are and where they're going. And what would the reaction be from the people in the town when you said that to them? I think most people didn't want to know.

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They didn't. It's a bit like with fracking now. You can talk to local people about the risks of fracking and what the consequences for them might be,

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and it might be at the end of their road, and you will still get people who say, well, it's jobs and that's what matters, and you're trying to halt progress.

00:22:07.800 - 00:22:19.100

Very similar kinds of arguments, really. So obviously Greenham represented very artistically and lots of art going on at the camp. Was that something you were involved in,

00:22:19.240 - 00:22:35.040

or did you see it happening around you? I certainly saw it happening. I wasn't really involved in it myself. I've never thought of myself as an artistic person, particularly.

00:22:35.860 - 00:22:53.780

But I know that a lot of it was happening, and some of that was about doing political things. Some of that was about artwork that went on the fence, or artwork that was used in the posters and the flyers

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and the messaging out and stuff like that. Some of it was just for women's own pleasure. And I think when you live like that, when you live in the mud with not very much stuff,

00:23:07.360 - 00:23:19.960

because once the eviction started, we couldn't really have anything, because they just came and took it. So really small things become significant.

00:23:20.140 - 00:23:35.540

So making a little drawing and giving it to somebody, or making a daisy chain, or finding a really beautiful stone or something. Things like that just had huge significance,

00:23:36.020 - 00:23:49.940

because they were just small things, but they were things that were of beauty, and they weren't about day-to-day survival and whose turn it is to go and dig the next ship.

00:23:51.900 - 00:24:03.080

All the glamorous things you get to do. Who's going to go and get the water? I was going to ask you about the domestic, day-to-day life about it,

00:24:03.160 - 00:24:16.320

which I appreciate is a very big question. But is it possible to talk about what not a typical day, but a day at Greenham would be like, from getting up to going back to bed in the evening?

00:24:17.500 - 00:24:26.360

And the conditions. I appreciate it's different from season to season. It's completely different, depending on which period you're talking about.

00:24:28.200 - 00:24:41.160

Because the day-to-day routine changed massively once the eviction started, because everything then became focused around when would the bailiffs arrive,

00:24:42.620 - 00:24:51.760

how long would they stay, and how many times would they come. So sometimes they just came once a day, sometimes they would come two or three times a day.

00:24:52.000 - 00:25:01.380

So what would happen then, they usually came to Bluegate first, and we saw them coming up the hill. So there'd be the muncher wagon,

00:25:01.520 - 00:25:09.640

which the bailiffs brought, and their van with them in, and then usually a couple of police cars with the police escort.

00:25:12.560 - 00:25:19.740

And they would often come very early, so that might be how the day started. Somebody would start shouting, bailiffs, bailiffs, bailiffs,

00:25:20.280 - 00:25:30.760

and everybody else would scramble out of the bender and gather up whatever they could. We had a van, a transit van or something, at Bluegate for a while,

00:25:30.860 - 00:25:38.100

so people would throw as much as they could in the back of the van, and then somebody, and quite often it would be me because I could drive,

00:25:38.800 - 00:25:45.400

would drive around the base in the van hooting the horn and yelling, bailiffs, bailiffs, bailiffs, at all of the other gates

00:25:45.400 - 00:25:59.660

to let them know that they were on their way. And so the day might start like that. Alternatively, if they came later in the morning, we might be up and sitting around the fire,

00:25:59.920 - 00:26:15.360

and the fire was going all of the time, and drinking cups of tea and waking up and that kind of thing. A lot of the time,

00:26:16.840 - 00:26:27.600

it was doing chores, it was washing up whatever we'd got, getting water, getting water. We had to go to Greengate to get the water,

00:26:30.960 - 00:26:38.500

or digging or filling in ship pits. We seemed to spend quite a lot of time doing that, especially if there was going to be a big demonstration because you had to cater for visitors.

00:26:42.780 - 00:26:52.400

Yeah, cooking, scrounging stuff, going and looking for polythene sheeting and stuff to make benders with.

00:26:52.700 - 00:27:00.560

We didn't, after the eviction started, we didn't have, we didn't have structures. We gave up having tents and stuff like that

00:27:00.560 - 00:27:12.820

because you had to have something you could take down quickly. And although they weren't supposed to take certain things, they weren't allowed to take bedding or clothing or food, they did.

00:27:13.680 - 00:27:21.460

They just took whatever they could get their hands on. And the police used to just, they'd turn around and they'd look down the road. And then when you'd say,

00:27:21.560 - 00:27:35.000

they're taking our clothes or they're taking our food, they'd say, I haven't seen them. And they would manhandle women quite roughly. And again, the police just never seemed to notice

00:27:35.000 - 00:27:44.360

that that was going on. And that's, you know, it's still like that now. It was still like that, the policing of the tree protests. You know, the police didn't see

00:27:44.360 - 00:28:01.580

that this army of security guards they'd brought to deal with the tree protests were assaulting people. And, you know, those inquiries are still going on. That very political use of the police,

00:28:01.720 - 00:28:14.540

which, you know, that goes along with, doesn't it, what was going on with the miners' strike and Orgreave. You know, at the time, the police were being used in a way, I guess, that they hadn't really been before

00:28:15.480 - 00:28:26.840

to reinforce a kind of political policy or direction. And I think now, with kind of private security companies, it's almost they're washing their hands of it as well. So kind of like, well, it wasn't us.

00:28:26.940 - 00:28:38.380

It was a different thing, which is dark and quite scary, really. It was a different thing and we didn't see it. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's exactly what was going on

00:28:38.380 - 00:28:48.940

with the bailiffs. The bailiffs were brought in and they were dismantling things. They were taking the food, they were taking... There was a really horrible incident,

00:28:49.080 - 00:29:01.320

which I personally didn't see, I just heard about it, but I did meet the woman where they'd picked somebody up and tried to... Well, I don't know whether they seriously were trying to

00:29:01.320 - 00:29:12.360

or whether they were just threatening to put her in the back of the muncher wagon. And in the process, something happened. I don't know whether she was dropped or whatever,

00:29:12.640 - 00:29:22.100

but she broke her leg. God. And of course, that was all around the camp then. And yeah, when I talked to her about it, she said

00:29:22.100 - 00:29:31.000

she couldn't really remember very much about it because she was so frightened at the time about what was going to happen. But yeah, it was pretty horrendous.

00:29:31.180 - 00:29:43.260

Yeah. And in terms of collective nature of decision-making... Yeah. How did that work for you?

00:29:43.400 - 00:29:49.760

How did you see it work? Did you take part in it? God, it was horrible. I've heard a lot about talking sticks.

00:29:50.240 - 00:30:03.600

Oh, yeah. I suppose when decisions were made within the gate, that was relatively straightforward because there weren't that many people.

00:30:03.720 - 00:30:17.440

I guess in terms of regular people who were living at Blue Gate or regular stayers, there was probably about 12, 15 of us maximum. Sometimes it was down to three or four.

00:30:18.740 - 00:30:27.980

So that was fairly straightforward. And what I remember is arguments about if we were given money. Sometimes people gave money, not food or whatever.

00:30:28.620 - 00:30:43.680

And arguments about what we should spend the money on and whether we should spend the money on food or booze or weed. So I think that was probably about the biggest kind of discussion we had.

00:30:45.500 - 00:30:54.780

Whether or not one of the dogs got pregnant and whether or not the dog should be allowed to give birth at the camp or whether it would be safer if the dog went to stay on somebody's farm to give birth.

00:30:55.040 - 00:31:10.300

We had a bit of a discussion about that. But big decisions about the campaign, about the direction of the campaign, about whether or not we would endorse something

00:31:10.300 - 00:31:21.220

or agree to something. Yeah, they had big meetings. They were usually either at Yellow Gate or Green Gate. They involved a lot of people.

00:31:21.360 - 00:31:33.240

Yes, there was a talking stick. Not everybody obeyed the rules of the talking stick. And people had massively different views on things. And there were some things that were quite challenging.

00:31:33.760 - 00:31:45.920

So, for example, there were quite a few women who had mental health problems staying at the camp. But there was one woman in particular whose behaviour,

00:31:48.040 - 00:32:01.580

while it wasn't really impinging on other people, was quite seriously self-damaging. And women were really concerned that she was going to starve herself to death

00:32:01.580 - 00:32:14.440

because she'd effectively almost become catatonic. She wasn't responding to anything. She was just lying in a tent and had been for a long time, a couple of weeks.

00:32:14.680 - 00:32:25.480

And so people were really, really concerned about it was increasingly difficult to get her to eat anything or drink anything. And there was a huge, huge issue

00:32:25.480 - 00:32:40.880

about whether or not somebody should contact mental health services and try and get somebody to come up and see her. And the woman had been asked about this

00:32:40.880 - 00:32:49.900

and had said very clearly she didn't want anybody. She'd been oppressed by mental health services and she'd been damaged by them and she didn't want anything to do with them.

00:32:50.840 - 00:33:05.200

And so there was a big debate about free will and whether somebody can exercise free will if they are ill and at what point does somebody else decide that they need to intervene.

00:33:07.100 - 00:33:16.420

It was quite a serious issue and because it was a serious issue, it was important and it was interesting and therefore I didn't mind spending several hours

00:33:16.420 - 00:33:29.200

sitting in the book talking about that one. But sometimes they were just really, you know, they were so, to my mind, they were so petty. I can't remember what they were about.

00:33:29.440 - 00:33:36.740

It was like, why are we talking about this? We've been talking about this for three hours. Why are we still talking about it? Because it's really obvious at some point

00:33:36.740 - 00:33:50.140

we're not going to come to an agreement. If you try and do everything by agreement, then at some point you're going to get stuck because there are some people who just, you know,

00:33:51.720 - 00:34:04.080

just will say, I can't do that, I'm not doing that, I'm not doing that. You know, there was a discussion about, there was something we were going to do, I think an invasion of the base,

00:34:04.160 - 00:34:14.980

and we were going to go in and sit on the silos or sit inside somewhere and at what point would we agree to leave. So would we agree when they asked us?

00:34:15.020 - 00:34:22.960

Because they didn't always know we were there. Sometimes we had to attract attention to the fact that we were in their base because they hadn't noticed.

00:34:26.280 - 00:34:31.960

So yeah, I think the dancing on the silos thing was one of those. It was like they'd gone in and sat on the silo and nobody had noticed,

00:34:32.140 - 00:34:43.500

so they'd have to stand up and start waving their arms about and shrieking and dancing and stuff. But it was, you know, at what point will we leave? When they'd just come and say, come on, clear off,

00:34:43.680 - 00:34:50.940

which, you know, they usually started with. Would we wait until they tried to physically lift us and move us? Would we wait until we'd been arrested? You know, there was a lot,

00:34:51.100 - 00:35:00.340

and women had different views about that. Like, it's enough to show that we can go in there whenever we like. So all we need is for them to see us,

00:35:00.460 - 00:35:08.120

notice us and ask us to leave and we'll leave. And other women were saying, no, no, no, we have to make it hard for them, we have to show that we're determined,

00:35:08.120 - 00:35:15.900

we have to wait until they physically drag us. Other women were saying, well, I'm happy to be arrested, I'll be arrested. You know, you lot can do what you like,

00:35:15.960 - 00:35:26.880

but I'm going to stay until I'm arrested. And there was a woman who just kept saying, I'm not walking away from this, I'm not walking away from this. Other people were saying, you know, it doesn't make sense,

00:35:26.960 - 00:35:33.720

why are you going to get yourself arrested for this? You know, this is just a little thing, you're going to wait until there's something worth being arrested. I'm not walking away, I've walked away enough times,

00:35:33.780 - 00:35:44.120

I'm not walking away. So, yeah, it was just... You know, after three or four hours of having this conversation round and round and round, I was just thinking,

00:35:44.420 - 00:35:52.480

well, let her bloody stay. You know, we'll go when we've had enough. Let her stay if she wants to. Oh, my God.

00:35:54.980 - 00:36:07.440

So, yeah, I don't think it was always... I don't think it was without conflict. I don't think that because women were working together and were trying to establish ways together of doing things differently,

00:36:07.580 - 00:36:14.340

I don't think it was always without conflict. Because I think, you know, people bring different views with them. Yeah, people are still people. Yeah.

00:36:17.900 - 00:36:32.160

And do you think that there's anything for activism today to learn from the nature of which decisions were taken at Greenham? Or have you seen it in action in other movements? I think it did make a difference in terms of activism.

00:36:32.160 - 00:36:45.000

I don't know if it made a difference in terms of the presence of the missiles, if I'm really honest. But in terms of the way people do political actions, I think you can see that now.

00:36:45.280 - 00:36:58.740

Yeah. I think you can see some of the creative responses now. I think quite often you see the use of art. So in the tree thing here,

00:36:59.320 - 00:37:13.320

so this is kind of a really recent thing, but also in the anti-fracking movement, a lot of kind of artistic ways of objecting and use of visual arts and music,

00:37:13.840 - 00:37:25.500

creation of music, creation of songs. There was a lot of music at Greenham. There were a lot of songs, some of which were still singing.

00:37:28.760 - 00:37:45.880

So yeah, I think it changed what people thought they could do. That kind of notion of establishing a camp, so you saw that kind of stuff with the Occupy movement. You've seen that kind of with the fracking stuff.

00:37:46.040 - 00:37:58.760

You've seen it with other environmental movements, the Newbury Bypass one. So yeah, that kind of just saying, I'm staying here until this is ended, one way or the other,

00:37:59.640 - 00:38:19.080

and using those kinds of almost engaging, funny, humorous, serious, but alongside humour, I think that's changed things. And I think the idea of trying to do a two-pronged approach,

00:38:19.080 - 00:38:39.240

so you do a kind of political activism, lobbying, engaging people politically, as well as the NVDA actions and the direct action. And this is more about kind of the end of Greenham.

00:38:39.320 - 00:38:53.680

How much do you think the camp was politically infiltrated or sabotaged, if at all? I wasn't there at the end, so I don't know. It was infiltrated all the way along.

00:38:57.880 - 00:39:22.860

There were people who were infiltrators. I don't know how much, I don't know how that changed. I suppose I stopped going about 1985, 86, maybe 87. So the last few years, I went occasionally.

00:39:25.320 - 00:39:38.880

But I wasn't really involved with it then, so I don't really know kind of how that happened or what happened. And kind of when you were there, did you see factions emerging, like kind of conflicting ideas emerging,

00:39:38.880 - 00:39:54.440

or were they already there throughout the whole time that you were there? I think they were always there. I think there were always things. There were some women who, for example,

00:39:55.400 - 00:40:09.500

were really opposed to anything that was illegal. And there were other women who said, if we don't do things that are illegal, we disagree with the laws, and if we don't do things that are illegal, we're pointless.

00:40:11.540 - 00:40:23.960

There were women who were very clearly, kind of from a Marxist point of view, politically, and would argue those politics. There were some women there who were Tories,

00:40:24.140 - 00:40:48.340

and had come from their local women's institute, and were very in the kind of country set, who were only interested in the anti-nuclear argument. Over the time, I think their political interests became much broader.

00:40:48.680 - 00:41:06.200

So it was very clearly, it started off, it was opposition to the establishment of nuclear weapons on British soil, and particularly in that air base, and that was a real clear focus. And I think the women who started the camp were really clear,

00:41:06.280 - 00:41:15.620

that's why they were there, that's what they were opposed to. They didn't want these weapons being brought, and the first couple of years were about that. It was about stopping those weapons coming in.

00:41:15.700 - 00:41:27.040

Then, of course, the weapons did come in. And the focus was about getting them out, and about trying to raise awareness of the threat and the danger that they posed.

00:41:27.980 - 00:41:44.260

But then, I guess we got involved, or we got drones, or some people brought with them interests in other things, so things like animal rights, things like spirituality and religion, and that kind of stuff,

00:41:45.920 - 00:41:58.760

nuclear testing. So there was a big alliance with women from the Pacific, who were really kind of trying to raise awareness about the damage done by nuclear testing in the Pacific,

00:41:59.020 - 00:42:15.800

and the threat to indigenous lands and indigenous people. So it kind of became quite broad, and a lot of people from other countries and from other causes came to Greenham to talk to us about what we were doing

00:42:15.800 - 00:42:32.000

and how we were doing it, and to try and learn, I suppose. Greenham women went to places. There was a bit of controversy about that, about who got to go, and who was allowed to be a spokesperson, and how come.

00:42:32.740 - 00:42:42.520

There was a trip. There was a trip somewhere. I can't remember where it was now. I can't remember.

00:42:42.660 - 00:42:52.400

There was a trip somewhere. It might have been Canada. And three Greenham women were going to go, and there was fundraising to support them to go,

00:42:52.400 - 00:43:02.540

and there was a bit of, well, how come they're the ones going, and how come we never got a chance to go, and there was a bit of that kind of stuff. So yeah, I think there were,

00:43:03.360 - 00:43:13.600

I think there were, I'm not sure I would go so far as to say factions. There were people, there were groups of people, groups of women who were very particularly interested in certain things.

00:43:14.200 - 00:43:30.940

There was a bit of an alliance with the Troops Out movement. There was a bit of an alliance with English Collection of Prostitutes around sex workers. So yeah, there were people who had particular focus, I suppose.

00:43:32.240 - 00:43:49.440

I suspect most of them came with it. They didn't develop it while they were there. And there were a lot of women there who were on the run from something,

00:43:50.020 - 00:44:00.240

on the run from violent partners, on the run from the care system, on the run from the mental health system, on the run from prison.

00:44:05.240 - 00:44:14.540

You've talked about this a little bit as well, but what do you feel is the legacy of Greenham within the Peace movement or any other movement, so if that's the feminist movement or the LGBTQ plus movement?

00:44:16.280 - 00:44:28.000

Yes. That's hard. I think there are concrete things that you could say, like the forms of protest,

00:44:28.600 - 00:44:46.680

and the strategies and the tactics used, and the awareness of some of the ways in which the state tried to crush the protest.

00:44:51.100 - 00:45:04.720

I think there is a legacy that's about learning to live in that kind of collective way, which by and large was very successful, despite everything that I've said about the arguments

00:45:04.720 - 00:45:24.140

and the differences and the endless meetings. It was a successful way of creating a community. I think there's a legacy that's around... I don't know, I almost want to say

00:45:24.140 - 00:45:44.240

adding to the tradition of a protest in this country. I haven't lived in Sheffield very long, but Sheffield is a well-known seat of radical behaviour. They had a...

00:45:45.880 - 00:45:59.740

There was an exhibition at one of the museums early last year sometime, and it was really interesting that the protests that were featured,

00:45:59.820 - 00:46:10.260

a lot of them had very strong connections with groups in Sheffield, and Greenham was one of those, and the Women Against Pit Closures was one of those,

00:46:10.260 - 00:46:21.780

and the Tree protest movement was one of those. It's kind of... It's part of a tradition. I don't think it was...

00:46:21.780 - 00:46:33.660

It didn't start that tradition, but I think it was an important stage in that. It's recognised by a lot of people. I'm surprised when people haven't heard about it.

00:46:36.260 - 00:46:47.660

The choir that we used to sing with in Birmingham, which is a socialist choir, used to sing Carrie Greenham Home as one of its songs, and one of the reasons they liked singing it

00:46:47.660 - 00:46:59.260

was because it always made me cry, and my brother and sister-in-law and their daughter came to see one of the concerts, and afterwards, when we were all sitting around singing,

00:46:59.400 - 00:47:07.100

somebody goes, Oh, let's sing Carrie Greenham Home, see if we can make Janet cry. And Jodie, who was...

00:47:07.100 - 00:47:14.380

I think she was 16 at the time, said to my brother, Why would it make her cry? And he said, Well, she was there.

00:47:14.720 - 00:47:21.660

And she said, What is it? Yeah. And when he told me, I thought, Gosh, she doesn't know about it,

00:47:22.000 - 00:47:31.600

and yet it's part of my life. It was a big part of my life. So I had to start instructing her. Sending her things about it,

00:47:31.660 - 00:47:42.100

saying, This is what it is. This is what it is. And in a way, I think, interestingly, she's kind of become more interested in modern-day things,

00:47:42.200 - 00:47:52.560

things that are happening now. So she's quite into Extinction Rebellion and that kind of stuff. But she'd never thought about those things

00:47:52.560 - 00:47:59.040

until we had that conversation about Greenham, and if I think about that now, I think that should have been part of her education. Yeah.

00:47:59.740 - 00:48:07.860

I find it quite... I did a history degree, and a lot of my interest was in activism and women's history, even though women's history should just be history.

00:48:08.120 - 00:48:15.520

Yes. Kind of one room at the side. And I kind of did the British state throughout the 20th century,

00:48:15.640 - 00:48:20.320

and nothing about Greenham, nothing about these things. And it's... I don't know.

00:48:21.760 - 00:48:34.200

Part of me wonders if it's about how, because it was a women-only thing, and how, because of the way the media treated it, it didn't have the documentation required

00:48:34.200 - 00:48:41.700

like other movements did. And also, by not having a leader, it doesn't fit into that traditional view of what a movement is, if that makes sense.

00:48:43.380 - 00:48:48.740

But yeah, I find it staggering when I tell people that I'm doing this project, they're like, oh, what's that? It wasn't that long ago.

00:48:50.180 - 00:49:00.680

And was so important for women and how we live and how we react to things that, yeah, I find it quite strange. But hopefully this project will help with that.

00:49:01.520 - 00:49:07.860

Yes. And yeah, my next question was, how do you feel that legacy has been relayed to future generations?

00:49:07.980 - 00:49:11.400

You've kind of already spoken. Yeah. I mean, I think it isn't. Yeah.

00:49:11.760 - 00:49:24.060

And even those of us who were involved in it. And I don't know. I guess there might be, for some people, for some women who were there,

00:49:25.360 - 00:49:31.920

I don't know if there were any who were there right the way through and right to the end, whether that's different.

00:49:32.180 - 00:49:47.440

But certainly for me, I do talk about it quite a lot. I do talk about it quite a lot to my peers. I haven't talked about it very much with younger people.

00:49:50.100 - 00:49:59.460

Although younger people who are involved in activism, I have. So yeah, when I've gone to places and kind of been part of demonstrations and stuff like that,

00:50:02.240 - 00:50:10.020

we've been up to a few of the fracking camps. And I've talked about it there. I've talked about how you're organising this and what you're doing about that

00:50:10.020 - 00:50:16.420

and how's that working out. Yeah, yeah. We used to do that and that. We found this was really helpful.

00:50:16.420 - 00:50:31.020

Have you got a talking stick? Let me present you with a talking stick. Yeah, the next question again you kind of answered. What do you think would make a difference

00:50:32.280 - 00:50:44.200

to kind of secure... Securing a legacy seems just this really kind of male obsession and I'm kind of eering away from talking about it in that sense, but kind of creating more awareness about it

00:50:44.200 - 00:50:54.180

so that it is more well known. Like we kind of know about the suffragette movement and the suffragist movement but Greenham seems kind of hidden in history.

00:50:55.880 - 00:51:09.460

I just wonder if you thought there was anything that could be done. Well, we need an anniversary year, don't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We need a year's worth of...

00:51:09.940 - 00:51:22.300

You know, I think there is quite a lot. You know, there's quite a lot known about the suffragette movement. Chris is a real kind of suffragette aficionado, so she's got a lot of stuff.

00:51:25.860 - 00:51:38.640

But I think that's more recent. If I think about what did I learn about the suffragette movement at school, it was about Emily Wilding Davison throwing herself under a horse. I mean, that was pretty much it.

00:51:42.180 - 00:51:55.840

So, yeah, I think the fact that we've had an anniversary year has raised that whole kind of stuff and every city has discovered that it had suffragettes and has started to kind of celebrate them.

00:51:56.620 - 00:52:11.580

We almost need kind of an anniversary year of Greenham and a bit of a, do you remember this, do you remember... There's so... I think there's little...

00:52:17.200 - 00:52:30.280

...media, archival material from a particular period because of the news blackout. I think it was a D notice. There was, you know, for a few years there was nothing.

00:52:31.620 - 00:52:45.280

There was stuff from the early period. There's the Guardian, your Greenham page, which has got a lot of stuff on it, except that you'd have to look quite hard to find it.

00:52:46.140 - 00:52:59.540

It's not something you just kind of accidentally stumble across. So there's something for me that's about saying there is stuff there, it's just not in the mainstream. It's not easy to find

00:52:59.540 - 00:53:12.100

and so we would need something that would be like a general kind of awareness raising. Do you know this happened? And did you know it went on for all of this time?

00:53:12.260 - 00:53:23.620

And did you know there were all of these women involved in it? And did you have women from your town who went? It's that kind of a thing, really. Maybe your project would kick it off.

00:53:24.520 - 00:53:41.760

What would be a good year to do it? I don't know, maybe 2022. When did they first walk? Oh, it might have been 81 actually.

00:53:42.520 - 00:53:51.440

82 was the first really big demonstration and that was in December. It might have been 82. I don't know when they first set out.

00:53:53.460 - 00:54:03.760

I've got a feeling it was 81, but I can't be certain. If it was 81, could we do it in 2021?

00:54:08.080 - 00:54:16.220

Yeah, that's the plan. I think that's what we need. We need an anniversary year. Big exhibitions in lots of places,

00:54:16.320 - 00:54:24.960

not just in London, because most of us weren't going to London. And everybody's everywhere. Like we've discovered with this project,

00:54:25.100 - 00:54:32.400

there are men and women everywhere. I used to have a badge that said that. In fact, I've probably still got it. Green and women are everywhere.

00:54:33.160 - 00:54:44.180

And I've got one from the 10,000 women for 10 days event. Yeah, I've still got stuff. I've still got the original poster

00:54:44.180 - 00:54:59.580

for the Embrace the Brace demonstration. I think there's just a wealth of, not only memories but memorabilia and stuff that we've found in archives

00:54:59.580 - 00:55:05.540

that's just ignored. And bringing it all together would be a brilliant thing to do. A travelling exhibition.

00:55:06.220 - 00:55:15.400

Because there's something about making things, doing things in real life that reaches people

00:55:15.400 - 00:55:29.060

that online stuff never does. So in Birmingham, for, I can't remember what the occasion was. I don't know if it was a protest exhibition or something,

00:55:29.180 - 00:55:36.660

but they showed the Greenham film, the Kerry Greenham Home film, which was from very early, right at the beginning.

00:55:37.380 - 00:55:45.380

And they had a bit of an exhibition of memorabilia and stuff like that. And so many women came. I went three or four times.

00:55:46.920 - 00:55:52.720

There were always women there. Saying, oh, I remember this, and I had one of those. And it was lovely.

00:55:52.860 - 00:56:00.420

But also, they were bringing their grandchildren. And that, for me, that question you said about younger people, it's like they've got something to show them.

00:56:01.260 - 00:56:10.380

And there were photographs there and there were posters, some of the original posters. So yeah, there is stuff around.

00:56:11.680 - 00:56:19.000

It's just, what's the word? Curating it. My next question is about children. But it's more about

00:56:20.100 - 00:56:29.060

if you saw or interacted with any children at the camp, and how, if you did, how they were treated, if they were. Because the stories we've heard is kind of,

00:56:29.160 - 00:56:36.800

yeah, they had a great time. And what an amazing thing to kind of grow up with. And when talking to Women Against Pit Camp Colleges, they were saying the kids loved it

00:56:36.800 - 00:56:48.280

and some of their children's earliest memories of being there and having a great time and stuff. There weren't any children living at Blue Gate. There were lots of dogs and lots of cats.

00:56:49.020 - 00:57:04.040

No children. I came into kind of passing contact with children at Yellow Gate and Green Gate. And sometimes visiting children.

00:57:04.200 - 00:57:20.520

So sometimes women brought their children for the day. But yeah, I mean, as far as I can remember, it was a bit like kind of an adventure camp, really. It was a bit like, I don't know, woodcraft folk.

00:57:22.240 - 00:57:33.080

That kind of thing. Normally they were involved in doing stuff like building fires or collecting wood or doing stuff. Sometimes they were organised things.

00:57:33.260 - 00:57:41.840

I remember if there was a big demonstration, they'd quite often do something specifically for the children, which might be a trail or, you know.

00:57:42.360 - 00:57:53.400

I think some of them were engaged in weaving something into the fence. So from that point of view, yeah, I can't really say much about day-to-day

00:57:53.400 - 00:58:04.960

because I didn't live with them on a day-to-day basis. These questions you've kind of already answered. So how would you say that being committed activist and campaigner has affected your personal life?

00:58:05.040 - 00:58:17.140

Do the two integrate, as you've said? Yes. Yeah, fundamentally. Yeah. I think it's just part of who I am and what I do.

00:58:17.260 - 00:58:28.700

There's always something. There's always something going on. And for a long time, it was at a level of going to demonstrations

00:58:31.920 - 00:58:45.820

and singing in a political choir and that kind of thing. Since I've retired, I've had more time for getting out and doing stuff. And you talked very briefly about

00:58:46.500 - 00:58:57.480

not really conditions in camp, but also from photos I've seen, I see a lot of wool and a lot of damp wool. And that was one of the main things I remember

00:58:57.480 - 00:59:05.380

about looking at the photos and how cold you must have been. And I wonder if you can talk about just the basic day-to-day survival of it

00:59:05.380 - 00:59:31.720

and how did you shower if you did shower? Those sorts of things. It was cold and often wet and often muddy. The washing facilities were primitive on camp.

00:59:31.900 - 00:59:44.740

If you went down into the village, you could use toilets and washrooms in places like restaurants and cafes and stuff. They weren't very keen,

00:59:44.940 - 00:59:57.580

but some of them were more welcoming than others. After a bit, the Quakers let us use their facilities in their meeting rooms.

00:59:58.980 - 01:00:09.220

And so that was the best bit, really. There were local people who would invite you to use their shower, use their bathrooms and stuff.

01:00:10.100 - 01:00:25.040

So we tried to kind of take it in turns a bit and not all go at once. It was just, yeah, I don't know. Would I do it now?

01:00:25.200 - 01:00:35.520

No, probably not. Probably not. You were living in the mud a lot of the time. So, yeah, the sleeping facilities,

01:00:36.160 - 01:00:44.280

the sleeping facility that we had at Blue Gate, the fender we had at Blue Gate, because there was a fence with prongs on, you'd get a big sheet of plastic,

01:00:44.640 - 01:00:51.140

you'd hook it over the prongs, stretch it down the fence, along the ground, put some heavy things,

01:00:52.460 - 01:01:00.920

bricks or shoes or something at that end and then drag it back over and hook it over the fence again. So you'd got like a triangular envelope of polythene

01:01:01.400 - 01:01:11.660

with no sides on. And that's kind of what we slept in. And sometimes it would get quite crowded. You'd have a lot of women

01:01:11.660 - 01:01:22.820

and a lot of dogs and cats in there, particularly if it was raining. Yeah, a lot of wet clothes, wet wool, wet jeans,

01:01:23.480 - 01:01:30.360

pink bright jeans. When they get wet, they get wet from the bottom and it just goes up and up and up and up and up

01:01:30.860 - 01:01:44.080

until your knickers are wet. And they take a long time to dry. We had, the Quakers used to bring, and other people,

01:01:44.460 - 01:01:51.660

it wasn't just them, other people used to bring Gore-Tex sleeping bags and stuff, which were just fantastic

01:01:51.660 - 01:02:01.060

because they were just everything proof. You could sleep outside in a Gore-Tex sleeping bag and be more comfortable and drier and warmer than you would be in the bender.

01:02:01.720 - 01:02:09.980

But of course, they were the first things that the Bailiffs went for, so we had to be really protective of them and try and get,

01:02:10.120 - 01:02:18.100

squirrel them out of sight and hide them in the woods or in the back of the van or something. Yeah, a lot of the time,

01:02:18.360 - 01:02:25.400

I mean it was really, it was quite boring some of the time because a lot of the time you were just huddling around the fire

01:02:26.280 - 01:02:39.960

and the fire was going all of the time. People would bring up carloads of wood. Sometimes it had been painted or it had creosote on it or stuff like that,

01:02:40.040 - 01:02:50.720

so the fumes were just awful. So yeah, when I worked and I used to go for the weekend, people at work used to laugh at me

01:02:50.720 - 01:03:00.020

because I'd turn up Monday morning with my hair up. My clothes absolutely reeking of wood smoke and smudges around my face

01:03:00.020 - 01:03:08.040

and they'd go, I hope you've brought a change of clothes, get in the shed, we'll see you in half an hour.

01:03:09.860 - 01:03:20.520

They were very, very tolerant actually and I got arrested a lot of times but I was never charged and I didn't have to go to court.

01:03:21.420 - 01:03:29.880

But I got arrested a lot and in the end I thought I'm going to have to tell my work about this because sooner or later

01:03:31.560 - 01:03:39.700

I'm going to be held overnight and I won't be able to get back in time. So I'd got the things you do, your solicitors numbering your shoe

01:03:39.700 - 01:03:48.080

and all that business. So I told my work and they were absolutely fine about it and they were just,

01:03:48.600 - 01:03:55.860

well if it happens you need to let us know and whatever time you're not here you'll have to take us leave. Yeah, fair enough.

01:03:55.860 - 01:04:03.160

Well, okay. I said, will I be sacked? They said, it will depend on what the charge is but probably not.

01:04:06.920 - 01:04:15.280

Why were you arrested? Oh, they just used to round us up. I mean usually it would be things like obstruction or trespass.

01:04:15.420 - 01:04:24.140

They did some, they invented some new bylaws or something at one point which meant that if you did certain things

01:04:24.140 - 01:04:30.560

you were now breaking the law whereas last week you weren't breaking the law. So they used to just, I think a lot of the time

01:04:30.560 - 01:04:39.080

it was just about getting us out of the way. So they would round up 20 or 30 women and they'd cart us all in vans down to the nick, stick us in the cells

01:04:39.080 - 01:04:46.700

and then just leave us there for several hours. And then, you know, they'd kind of come and they'd say, right, we're not going to bother interviewing you,

01:04:46.780 - 01:04:51.580

you can go. And that would be that, you know. So you'd have spent several hours there thinking, okay,

01:04:51.820 - 01:04:58.640

so normally what they would do if they were going to charge you, they would take you down there, they'd leave you to stew for a few hours,

01:04:58.680 - 01:05:03.080

then they'd interview you and they'd keep you overnight and they'd hold you up in front of the magistrates the next morning.

01:05:04.100 - 01:05:11.420

But I think when it got to the point where they had so many of us, they just kind of gave up with it because it was clogging up the court system.

01:05:12.220 - 01:05:19.980

Eventually it was just, you know, every morning they'd just have this parade of women who, you know, they would fine you

01:05:19.980 - 01:05:34.220

and then women would refuse to be bound over. So then they had to be sent to prison. And she usually got 14 days or 28 days. So then it was clogging up the prison

01:05:34.220 - 01:05:46.840

and the other women in the prison were usually quite sympathetic, it was green and women. I think it just became too, you know,

01:05:46.900 - 01:05:55.080

too difficult to process. So they just used it as a way of clearing us out of the way while they did things, particularly if we were lying in front of the gate

01:05:55.080 - 01:06:00.500

and tying ourselves to it and chaining ourselves to it and stuff like that, putting chains around the gate.

01:06:02.620 - 01:06:07.380

It also seems a way of, it's almost like gaslighting you as well. It's like taking you away, putting you somewhere,

01:06:07.500 - 01:06:14.740

making you more anxious and being like, no, it's fine, you can go. It's kind of like a psychological thing. It's like, yeah, yes.

01:06:15.440 - 01:06:23.920

You don't know then when it's going to happen. We got arrested, some of us got arrested on Salisbury Plain once. Four of us had gone.

01:06:24.360 - 01:06:33.340

We went to do a recce, we were planning a walk from Avebury Stone Circle across Salisbury Plain to Stonehenge.

01:06:35.200 - 01:06:44.700

And there was a woman, a Canadian woman called Starhawk of which he was going to come and do some rituals with us along the way.

01:06:44.700 - 01:06:54.020

So four of us went to just suss out the route and have a look at it. And we got to Salisbury Plain and the flags were up

01:06:54.020 - 01:07:03.960

which means that you're not allowed to go there because they're doing an exercise. Anyway, we brought a picnic with us so we decided we'd just go and have our picnic.

01:07:04.100 - 01:07:11.620

So there we are, having our picnic in the middle of Salisbury Plain and all of a sudden over the hill comes this kind of armoured car

01:07:11.620 - 01:07:23.440

and a bunch of squaddies in combat gear and camouflage with twigs in their hats and guns and stuff. So we had a bit of this exchange about

01:07:23.440 - 01:07:30.460

what are you doing here and we said we're just having a picnic and they went, oh yeah, right, we know who you are. We know what you're doing here.

01:07:30.600 - 01:07:37.660

And we said, look, we're just having a picnic. Well, then you can go. So that was one of those other, well, I'm not going, I'm not going.

01:07:38.480 - 01:07:43.500

That was another one of those. Shall we go? No, we're not going. No, we're not doing anything.

01:07:43.680 - 01:07:51.420

We're just sitting here. So they arrested us and they put us in this vehicle which had blacked out windows

01:07:51.420 - 01:08:01.800

and they drove us around for ages and then they took us into this, it was like an underground base somewhere and they were being really menacing

01:08:01.800 - 01:08:07.040

and saying things like, nobody knows where you are, nobody knows you're here, you don't know where you are,

01:08:07.100 - 01:08:16.900

we can do what we like down here. This isn't subject to normal police procedures. We're not the police. We're the military police.

01:08:17.560 - 01:08:27.780

So there were all this going on and they separated three of us from another woman who'd been probably a bit more mouthy than we'd been

01:08:27.780 - 01:08:33.600

and they took her off somewhere and they wanted to take our photographs and our fingerprints and we were refusing and saying,

01:08:33.720 - 01:08:39.600

you have no right to do that and you can't do that unless you've charged us and what are you charging us with? We were just having a bit of blah, blah, blah.

01:08:40.280 - 01:08:48.200

And then they said, they left us there for, I don't know, an hour or something like that. They came back and they said,

01:08:48.280 - 01:08:57.340

right, we're going to let you go and we said, but what about our friend? Oh, we haven't finished with her yet. Well, we're not going.

01:08:57.960 - 01:09:04.760

We're not going until you produce her. This is your chance. If you want to go, you've got to go now. No, we're not going until she comes.

01:09:04.760 - 01:09:15.380

So that went on for about another hour and then they produced her and they stuck us all back in this vehicle and drove us around for ages and ages and ages

01:09:18.400 - 01:09:23.340

and, you know, we were kind of a bit like, well, what are they going to do with us? Are they going to let us out? Yeah.

01:09:23.440 - 01:09:30.780

And eventually they just opened the thing and said, like, get out, all of you. Get lost, shut the door. Drove off.

01:09:31.600 - 01:09:38.660

So we're standing there thinking, well, we got out of that one. Now where the hell are we? And it was really strange.

01:09:38.720 - 01:09:49.180

We worked out we were about 500 yards away from the pub where we'd parked my car. So then, of course, we were, like, completely paranoid about it.

01:09:49.240 - 01:09:57.060

Did they know this all along? Did they see us? Did they track us from there all the way down the road?

01:09:57.580 - 01:10:03.960

Did they wait for us to kind of get settled and get our picket fence? Was it just a coincidence? Yeah.

01:10:04.420 - 01:10:11.960

It was just, you know. How strange. But it was that really just bizarre kind of thing about, actually, they're right,

01:10:12.040 - 01:10:17.960

nobody does know where we are. They knew where we'd gone. People knew where we'd gone, but would they, you know?

01:10:19.800 - 01:10:24.880

Yeah, that is... We didn't know how far away we were from Salisbury Plain by the time they started dragging us around.

01:10:24.980 - 01:10:35.460

We could have been bloody miles away. God, that is terrifying. Yeah, it was... It was...

01:10:35.460 - 01:10:42.340

That was the only time, I think, genuinely I was scared, because I thought, I really don't know what's going to happen now.

01:10:42.640 - 01:10:48.080

Normally, there was a bit of a pattern to things that you could kind of go, they'll do this, and then they'll do this, and then they'll say that,

01:10:48.180 - 01:10:55.160

and we'll say this, and, you know. That time, I really wasn't sure. Mm. Were you ever scared at Greenham?

01:10:57.200 - 01:11:13.280

No. No. I would say there were times when I was... a bit anxious about what was going to happen.

01:11:18.960 - 01:11:25.820

No, I wouldn't say I was ever scared. Mm. No. Was it because you think...

01:11:25.820 - 01:11:32.100

Do you think it was because you were surrounded by people? And like you said, it was that kind of predictability thing as well. They'll do this, and then they'll do this. Yeah.

01:11:32.860 - 01:11:38.720

It was... And because... I mean, we know now, we weren't actually that visible,

01:11:38.860 - 01:11:44.720

but we felt quite visible. Mm. We felt like people would notice. Yeah.

01:11:45.260 - 01:11:54.800

Although, some of the things... Like, there was this theory that they were using some kind of... They were using some kind of weapon

01:11:54.800 - 01:12:06.760

or device inside the base. Like, some kind of sound thing that was causing women to have really severe headaches and blackouts and stuff like that.

01:12:07.840 - 01:12:16.220

And... We were convinced that this was something that they were doing and that it was mobile, that they were moving it around the base

01:12:16.220 - 01:12:28.880

because different women at different bases were being affected at different times. And we were convinced it was some kind of noise, you know, ultrasound or something like that

01:12:28.880 - 01:12:39.640

that was having this effect on some people. We never proved it. And people thought it was just balmy, you know. People were just like,

01:12:39.700 - 01:12:46.580

oh, you're really paranoid now. Mm. But I'm still convinced there was something that they were doing,

01:12:46.760 - 01:12:52.660

there was something they were using that was causing that effect, because it was just so noticeable. Mm.

01:12:53.980 - 01:13:08.580

And was there a feeling of paranoia as well? I think there was... I don't know if it was paranoia. There was a lot of wariness.

01:13:09.500 - 01:13:20.340

There was a lot of wariness about new people who came out of the blue. So there was a wariness about me when I was working

01:13:20.340 - 01:13:24.960

and I was coming down at weekends and people were like, well, what's that all about? And, you know,

01:13:25.400 - 01:13:34.080

where are you going when you're not here? And what's that kind of work? Because it was a social work, I think. It was like, oh, OK,

01:13:34.660 - 01:13:45.880

that's a bit dodgy and dubious and whatever. But, yeah, I mean, it was fairly easy to kind of prove your credentials, really. Yeah.

01:13:46.580 - 01:13:50.080

There'd be other people who'd say, oh, no, we know her. She's been around for ages. Yeah.

01:13:50.280 - 01:14:03.900

She used to live here. But, yeah, I think because there were people who infiltrated, there was some anxiety and maybe some paranoia about people who just showed up.

01:14:04.000 - 01:14:13.660

It's like, well, where have you come from? And, you know, why are you here? And why did you stop going? I can't remember if you talked about that.

01:14:14.480 - 01:14:29.120

I guess just because my life changed and I got involved in other things and it felt for me a bit like it was... I don't know.

01:14:29.280 - 01:14:37.820

I'd just spent enough time there, I think. Spent enough time. I was tired and it felt like nothing was changing.

01:14:38.200 - 01:14:58.680

It was, yeah. And how did you feel when it finished? How did I feel about it? I don't know, a bit sad.

01:15:01.780 - 01:15:11.660

I think by then... Because by the time it finished completely, the missiles were gone. It was, you know, it was all over

01:15:12.180 - 01:15:19.860

and it was hard to see it as a victory. Oh, OK. Because I don't believe I still don't believe

01:15:19.860 - 01:15:33.400

that the missiles went because of the camp. So, yeah, it just, yeah. Bit sad. Bit like, well, in the end, they did go.

01:15:34.760 - 01:15:43.200

So, they went before we did. So even though it was a long time after I'd ever been there, you know, I still considered myself a Greenham woman.

01:15:43.240 - 01:15:51.040

Yeah. And, yeah, they went before we did. We outlasted them. But, yeah, a bit of a...

01:15:53.120 - 01:16:01.440

Yeah, a bit of a questioning, I suppose. Yeah. I'm guessing that the women who were still there were still getting something from it,

01:16:01.500 - 01:16:13.420

were still feeling that it was worth being there and that it was a good way that they wanted to live. Yeah. What I really didn't understand

01:16:13.420 - 01:16:26.340

when I was interviewing yesterday with the women against pit closures was that there is still such a huge animosity against the women who were involved in those protests.

01:16:26.720 - 01:16:32.080

And for me, it's kind of like, it was so long ago. Let it go. Not for the women who believed in it,

01:16:32.100 - 01:16:37.380

but more for the people who opposed it. Just, it's done. Like, it doesn't exist anymore. Let it go.

01:16:37.460 - 01:16:47.020

The world's moved on. And just to accept that it is a huge part of British history and a huge part of working class history

01:16:47.020 - 01:16:56.600

and women's history and LGBTQ history, just let go of your animosity. It's done. I'm like, what can you achieve from this?

01:16:58.680 - 01:17:09.340

And I think that is something that I'm struck by as I've kind of been telling people about the project. And I think a lot of that is to do with the media and how the media treated the women at Greenham,

01:17:10.220 - 01:17:19.900

the misinformation that was out there and how, you know, we all know certain newspapers and certain media outlets are a wing of a party.

01:17:21.020 - 01:17:33.200

And they're towing a party line. And that is, in my view, abhorrent. And it should never be allowed in a free world. And that's why I also think

01:17:33.200 - 01:17:46.340

maybe it hasn't been documented in an objective way. Because it's a bit of a cliche that the first draft of history is the media. But they are sources that historians use.

01:17:46.720 - 01:17:55.760

And if the only sources that they've got are newspaper articles, which cause them kind of whatever, then that's going to be the history that is written down. Well, the first kind of history that's written down.

01:17:57.300 - 01:18:13.040

I think we've learned quite a lot in various protest movements about that from Greenham. Because the women's voices weren't there. And the attempts to capture them since then,

01:18:13.200 - 01:18:22.660

there have been. And there are things that capture them. But they're not easily findable. So the same thing happened here

01:18:22.660 - 01:18:36.080

with the trees movement. Lots and lots of very negative publicity about the campaigners. Lots of stuff that was just downright lies. And has now been proved to be lies.

01:18:36.200 - 01:18:48.740

And so it's all coming out now. But the campaigners have been really clear about documenting their side of the story from the beginning. And making that very publicly available.

01:18:49.940 - 01:19:02.560

And using mainstream media and social media. And keeping a record of things. And using filmmaking and stuff like that. So I think there's something about, you know,

01:19:02.560 - 01:19:13.040

you know that if you're in that kind of protest movement. Mainstream media is going to come after you. You know that. They're going to be used very politically.

01:19:13.200 - 01:19:21.560

Just like the police. Just like the security. They're going to come for you. And they're going to tell what are very similar kinds of lies.

01:19:21.720 - 01:19:28.700

Every time. And it's almost like you can predict the things they're going to say. So they're going to say that you're dangerous. They're going to say you're violent.

01:19:29.300 - 01:19:41.160

They're going to say that you're using strategies that will put at risk members of the public or workers going about their business. They're going to say you're dirty.

01:19:41.680 - 01:19:50.780

They're going to say that you're hippies. They're going to say that you're lazy. And that you don't have any jobs. And you don't work.

01:19:50.800 - 01:19:56.660

You know, all of those things. They say them every single time. They say them about frackers. They say them about pre-protective.

01:19:56.800 - 01:20:06.480

They say them about the Occupy people. They say them about student protesters. All of it. Every single time.

01:20:06.600 - 01:20:20.400

They're the same things that they said about the Green and women. And, you know, I don't know if they said the same things about the Older Master marches. I only went on one of the Older Master marches when I was young.

01:20:20.560 - 01:20:41.960

But there was something there about people being cowards. And kind of, because I like, I was kind of thinking after the interviews yesterday about the miners' strike and how that has become part of a British history narrative

01:20:41.960 - 01:20:49.320

in the post-war context. And it just exists. It's not positive or negative. It just exists.

01:20:49.500 - 01:20:59.060

That is what happened then this came after. And it's an event. And I think that's the way it needs to be with a lot of other protest movements or women's movements especially.

01:20:59.420 - 01:21:04.940

It happened. That was it. There's no opinion on it in an objective historian's way. Move on.

01:21:05.620 - 01:21:15.900

And with, yeah, with the protest movements around the miners' strike and also around Greenham, that's what I can't get over. That people still have an opinion on it. It's like, well, it's not an opinion.

01:21:16.060 - 01:21:23.800

It's a fact. This is what happened. This is what came after it. Is that because it was women?

01:21:24.360 - 01:21:36.200

I think so. There was a big thing, wasn't there, about women abandoning their responsibilities, particularly abandoning their husbands and their children

01:21:36.200 - 01:21:49.140

to go and sit in the mud somewhere. I know that was a massive thing with Greenham. Always, if they ever did a story about a woman, if there was ever anything in the paper about a woman,

01:21:49.440 - 01:22:03.180

they would always make a point of saying whether or not she had children and a husband and where they were. And they would always, if they were interviewing, in the early days women would agree to be interviewed

01:22:03.180 - 01:22:16.000

because they felt like it might be a way of getting their point across. And I think as time went on we just learned that it wasn't worth doing because they would twist everything. But, yeah, quite often women would be interviewed

01:22:16.000 - 01:22:25.920

and they would always say, you know, where is your husband, where are your children, what does your husband think about this, how do you think your children are managing without their mother.

01:22:26.540 - 01:22:36.940

There would always be lots and lots of that kind of stuff. And women did feel a way about it. They did feel like, yeah, well, are they all right? Yeah, of course.

01:22:36.960 - 01:22:48.840

Is it okay for me to be here? Women who had their children with them would ask themselves those questions. They would never ever admit that publicly,

01:22:49.140 - 01:23:02.060

but they did ask themselves those questions. And I think as people are coming forward with their stories maybe that hesitation is still there because, yeah, it is something which disrupts what is expected or traditional.

01:23:02.720 - 01:23:14.540

And whenever those things happen and people are met with those questions in a combative way, not in a kind of, I genuinely want to understand how you feel about this, there is going to be a hesitancy

01:23:14.540 - 01:23:26.440

and people are going to withdraw into themselves and not talk about it. And also the trauma must be a massive thing as well, like you talked about with the bailiffs. There must have been, and the woman you mentioned with the leg,

01:23:26.580 - 01:23:37.580

where they broke a leg, there must be hundreds of stories, thousands of stories of women who are traumatised by what happened. And to put their stories in the public domain is a huge responsibility,

01:23:38.280 - 01:23:52.780

ethically, but also we don't live in a world, unfortunately, which doesn't treat trauma survivors or people suffering with trauma in a respectful way. And I think maybe that has something to do

01:23:52.780 - 01:24:04.380

with the stories not being documented or something as well. I also wonder if it's because it's about nuclear weapons, which is still an ongoing thing, that there's a political edge to not talking about it in a positive way as well,

01:24:04.380 - 01:24:11.460

whereas mining's done, it's over, clean, cut dry. Well, not really. Well, no, not really. It's not really.

01:24:11.640 - 01:24:26.480

No. But in a sense, the strike is over, if that makes sense, and it's done and it's a period of history that you can measure. And whereas nuclear is still happening,

01:24:26.600 - 01:24:38.500

it's still an evolving thing that's happening, it's linked to climate change and things like that that... Yeah, yeah, I don't know. But hopefully this will help.

01:24:40.200 - 01:24:40.960

I hope so.