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I d like to start Stephen by asking you a bit about your childhood, where you grew up, brothers or sisters, what your parents did, that kind of thing. I have a sister who is four years older than me and my parents when they married in 1949, I come from Lincolnshire and I was brought up on a farm. I come from an agricultural family on both sides of the

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family. I am on my mother's side and my father's side of the family and my mother, she developed diabetes in pregnancy and then sort of had complications and sadly died aged 52 in 1977. My father was a self-employed farmer in a partnership with his brother and worked on the farm together with their own father, the three of them together initially and then just the two

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of them and it was an arable farm growing some root crops such as potatoes, sugar beet, cauliflowers, cabbage and then wheat and barley and they kept livestock. They kept milking cattle and we had pigs and we had bantam chickens and then ducks and geese and that sort of thing. It was very much a rural sort of upbringing. But because I wasn't sort of physically suited to,

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you know, sort of becoming a farm labourer, that was not something that I, you know, wished to pursue. Were you a church attending family? When I say church attending, I would say initially three or four times a year. Typical sort of village attendance really, sort of Easter, Harvest, Christmas, you know, so initially three or four times. That was about

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the maximum really, the number of times that my parents went to church. It was only really when neighbours and that sort of thing, they sort of sang in the, they had two boys and that sort of thing, of a similar age to myself and that sort of thing and they sang, well, in the church choir and they went to the local parish church. I lived at a small village called Quadring,

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it's spelled Quadring, Q-U-A-D-R-I-N-G, which is near Spalding in South Lincolnshire. So very much a rural sort of upbringing and so, you know, I suppose it was just something that initially appealed to me and I sort of sang in the church choir. I was a server and then latterly on the PCC and then sort of, I left, I left home, as I say, well, I was born in fifty-seven and I left

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home in eighty-two and then moved to sort of a rural town again in Lincolnshire, sort of about probably ten miles away, not too far from Spalding, but nearly all of Lincolnshire is sort of mainly the industry or the businesses are sort of agricultural, sort of, you know, food processing industries really. Yeah, yeah. So you went to school, that was okay? Yeah, I enjoyed school.

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The subjects that I really took an interest in were English language, you know, sort of English and history really. They were my two favourite subjects. So, I suppose loosely in a way, sort of, at the sort of historical age of the church, you know, architecturally and liturgically and that sort of tradition, you know, that sort of aspect, you know, appealed to me really. Do you say that

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you had a, at that time, a kind of living faith or was it the culture of the church that you enjoyed? I suppose, as you put the term, a living faith, that, that, that s something that evolved, you know, over, you know, sort of a period of time as I, as I sort of progressed, as it were, as I sort of grew, you know, from, from, if not from an eight-year-old, you know, sort of, to then my

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teenage and then, then my adult year. So that, that, that was something that evolved and that sort of, and sorry, the second point that you. I was just saying, you know, did you, was it the culture and the tradition of the church? Well, yeah, well, yeah, yes. Very much the, certainly the culture in, in, in Lincolnshire that, you know, that farming sort of, you know, families sort of, it, I suppose it was

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probably more expected that you went to church really. Yeah, yeah. Probably more so and not sort of, and then, you know, there was both, always sort of a reasonable attendance. I suppose when I think back that there were always sort of two services, you know, sort of, two, you know, and sometimes three, you know, sort of, and, whereas now, not sort of, most rural parishes, not sort of, you

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know, they were lucky if they, if they, if they get a regular, you know, sort of Sunday Eucharist, you know, sort of. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. At what point did you kind of sense what your sexual identity was? When did you become kind of aware of feelings? Well, well, well really, if you like, sexual feelings, when, when I was sort of, knew that I was sort of different, sort of, if you like to use

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the word homosexual, gay, you know, whatever, and I somehow knew that I wasn t attracted to, to girls and that sort of, it, it was sort of, you know, males, you know, sort of, that, that, that I, if you like, became, sort of, I couldn t explain why, but, but somehow I was, it wasn t a sexual sort of, you know, it wasn t a sexual fetish, it was just something that, that, that,

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that just sort of, um, you know, that, that was part of me really. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And did you have any sense of that being problematic in terms of you going to church or. Um, and sort of, not, not so much, well, certainly, I mean, I didn t talk about it for, you know, for years, you know, and er, um, and er, no, it, it, it, it, er, er, yes, I suppose as I got older, I realised it was

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sort of, um, um, it was almost sort of frowned upon. It was something that was almost sort of dirty, you know, sort of, you know, that, er, it, it, you know, it was sort of, er, um, er, in a part, you know, God s sort of, er, you know, judgement, you know, sort of hell and damnation, you know, that it was all, you know, it was abominable sin and, and the worst, you know,

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atrocious things. Where did you pick those messages up from? Um, possibly because, because it was, er, er, um, I suppose, if you like, the, for you to say, the church s teaching really, you know, sort of, er, and, and people s attitude, you know, to, and that sort of, er, um, to gay people because when I was growing up, sort of, er, 1968, sort of, sixty-nine, it was only

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sort of, er, er, you know, again, those early, late sixties, early seventies, you know, sort of, um, er, I suppose it was very much in the news, you know, sort of, er. Yeah. Um, er, er, then, you know, sort of, um, so, er, um, er, because, because it was, you know, er, er, illegal to have, um, sex with a man, you know, sort of, so. And, er, um, er, and again, and that sort of,

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even in, in the, er, it, it was just public, it was the attitude within society, you know, even within the late seventies, eighties, and that sort of, er, um, er, I remember, sort of, buying my first copy of, um, er, well, it, well, it was the, the gay news, you know, sort of, it was just a simple paper, you know, sort of, er, then, and even just getting that,

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you know, sort of, um, er, either from, you know, your trip to London or the occasional copy in, in, in Smiths, you know, sort of, er, or a, dare I say, a, not, not a backstreet news, newsagent, but, but those that sort of stock, um, er, and you were almost, you felt that you were, you were doing something horrific by, by, by buying something, you know, sort of, um, I mean,

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it wasn t illegal, you know, sort of, er, um, er, and, and, and you, you were made to, sort of, even then, still meet in secret, you know, sort of, um, in a church hall, you know, sort of, er, um, a meeting for men, you know, sort of, on the first, er, although it wasn t advertised as that, it, it was more as a social gathering, you know, sort of, er,

00:11:04.140 - 00:11:23.480

social meeting, you know, sort of, er, you know, that s how it was phrased. It wasn t advertised as a gay meeting, but it was sort of, er, it was sort of, sort of this secret language really, secret code really, yeah. Yeah. And that was in the church hall. Oh, oh, yes, er, but it wasn t locally, and that s, I had to, sort of, go to somewhere that, that, that met, it, it wasn t

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the church hall, but again, it was, it was somewhere, um, sort of, um, thirty miles away, you know, so you, so you had to have a car really to, you know, to, you know, to, um, um, because, er, er, and I know it s a cliche now, you know, sort of, er, to use the phrase, you re, you re the only gay in the village, you know, but that s how, how I felt, you know, sort of, er, you know,

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sort of, um, and because I was so actively involved in that sort of, um, um, in, in the village, you know, sort of, er, um, and later when I moved to, to, er, two other parishes, my whole beach, er, spelt H-O-L-B-E-A-C-H, and, um, and another parish Suttonbridge, S-U-T-T-O-N, N-bridge, er, er, basically, I, I, I looked up on two occasions, and that s,

00:12:10.420 - 00:12:28.240

er, during Lent courses, and that s, er, and twice the comment was, you know, sort of, er, well, of course we have no gays, and that s, sort of, in our parish, you know, sort of, er, and I, and, er, and they, and even then it was, I mean, I wasn t out as a gay person, you know, so then, so it was, it was still very difficult, you know, sort of, um. Yeah.

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Did you come out to your family or did it just emerge naturally? Um, it, it didn t emerge, um, naturally. Um, how, er, initially, and that s, sort of, er, um, when my, um, mother died in 1977, and then my father, er, married again in 1979, um, and just before I left home, when that s, my stepmother, um, um, found gay, er, magazines, get copies of Gay Times under the bed, um.

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Should have hit the more imaginative place. Well, well, yeah, well, yeah, yes, but I didn t expect to, you know, you, you, you know, but, but, but. First place parents look under the bed. Yes, be that as it may, and of course, the next thing she does, and that s, sort of, er, um, and, er, um, so, and that s, sort of,

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er, er, that, that s, sort of, er, really, sort of, er, and, and I was threatened that if ever I, you know, I was seen to be with a man or bring a, you know, sort of, er, even a male friend home, I d be, you know, I d have, I d have to leave, leave home, so I, I knew then, you know, that my time. Your days were numbered. My days were numbered, so, so at the first opportunity,

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when I, when, um, er, when I was able to, you know, to, to leave home and that sort of, I, I, I did, you know, sort of, er, I mean, I knew I had to wait another, um, sort of three years, but, er, it wasn t as easy then, er, um, you know, to, er, you know, to, to move away from home, you know, so, er, um, so, er, er, you know, that what father said, you know, you know,

00:14:13.140 - 00:14:32.900

your father still ru, ruled, you know, ruled the roost, even though I was in my, you know, sort of, um, teens and, and, and early twenties, you know, sort of, er, er, I mean, it s far more common for, you know, for, er, even those that go to college and university, but even then, you know, when I was sort of, you know, sort of eighteen up to twenty, early twenties,

00:14:32.900 - 00:14:57.760

you didn t sort of, although certainly in a rural, um, community, you didn t sort of leave home at that early age and, and, um, but once I, I, I left home and that sort of, um, er, it was easier in a way, but, but, but because of where I was living still in, in Lincolnshire, life was still very difficult even though I lived on my own and even though I could have,

00:14:57.760 - 00:15:25.860

the world was my oyster, I, I still felt, um, trapped in a way because of my financial means, because I, even though I was earning, and that sort of, er, it was a very, um, sort of, er, small wage, but by, but by comparison, when you re living in a, working in a rural community, your, your salary is very, um, er, by, you know, it, it s, well,

00:15:26.260 - 00:15:48.860

certainly, er, in the agricultural area, and that sort of thing, especially sort of, um, in the, er, in the south compared to London, and that sort of, um, it, it s a very small, you know, sort of, um, you know, um, regular wage, so you weren t limited by how much money, you know, you actually sort of, er, earned and, um, and, and, er, um, so I, I didn t sort of

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really, er, if you like, I suppose I didn t do much about being gay or, or who I was, you know, suppose. Yeah, it was just financially too difficult. Financially too difficult, and, and to meet friends, you know, it s still, it s still very difficult, you know, suppose, so to meet like-minded people, and that sort of, um, um, if I did, I, I would have to travel,

00:16:10.380 - 00:16:30.580

you know, thirty, forty miles away, you know, to, to go to Peterborough, and, um, and, and, and it just, it, it, it really was difficult rather than, you know, meeting people on your doorstep, you know, sort of, um, um, but having said that, once you, you know, you did realise that you, you know, you weren t the only gay in the village, as I say, you know, sort of, um,

00:16:30.620 - 00:16:52.740

there were other people, you know, sort of, um, er, er, er, er, and it was then that you felt, you know, if not more ordinary, if that s the right word, and not strange or, um, and, and, and sort of, er, and, and sort of, er, frowned upon, you know, for being different, you know, sort of, er, with, in the actual fact, I didn t feel different, but just to be accepted really.

00:16:52.920 - 00:17:24.240

Yeah. And how, how did that happen? How did your circumstances change? Um, well, my, my, my circumstances changed, um, really, and that sort of, um, it, it wasn t until, er, er, sort of, er, even as late as, er, um, er, until I met, met Simeon, and that sort of, er, um, it would be about, er, er, I suppose getting on to, what, fifteen years ago now,

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um, er, and, er, because I, I felt, you know, sort of, er, but because I had a disability, I thought, well, no one wants to, sort of, er, er, you know, meet a sort of gay disabled person, and that sort of, er, and, er, and I thought, well, you know, sort of, well, well, that s it, you know, I ve just got to accept life to being, you know, sort of, er, yeah, yeah, er, um, er,

00:17:47.820 - 00:18:11.980

and it, and it, er, and it wasn t until, and that sort of, er, er, we met on, on a, sort of, er, across a crowded room, um, discussing human sexuality, you know, sort of, er, Bishop Michael Doe, and that sort of, er, at, um, at Lincoln, and, er, and we initially met, sort of, er, er, and, er, we, we, we exchanged, sort of, numbers, and,

00:18:12.740 - 00:18:32.540

and, er, but because I live, I live forty miles away from Lincoln, um, I said, well, whenever you re coming up, up to Lincoln, and that sort of, er, do call in for coffee, and, and, er, but of course it was never, it never worked out quite like that, because whenever I went to Lincoln, I, because I was a church warden at the time of the parish, I, I either had other

00:18:32.540 - 00:18:59.900

people in the car, and it just wasn t, wasn t possible, so, so, and then, anyway, moving further on, and that sort of, er, two years later, and that sort of, um, er, we, we sort of, er, um, met again and, er, and, er, and again, and that sort of, er, um, er, sort of, er, er, you, you know, we, we, we ve been together, you know, er, ever since, you know, sort of, er, um,

00:19:01.300 - 00:19:26.740

um, but, but, but prior to, to, prior to that, and that sort of, er, um, I suppose, and that sort of, I realised within the, um, you know, Church of England, that, that, that, um, there are far more gay people, you know, sort of, um, um, closeted, you know, sort of, er, er, um, er, that, that, that s still afraid to actually sort of come out, you know, um, and I m not

00:19:26.740 - 00:19:48.120

necessarily talking about, you know, about, about, you know, clergy, that, that s when, you know, er, um, you, you, I sort of realised, you know, sort of, um, er, just, it was either just the outlook, you know, sort of, er, um, or, or people would, like, you know, occasional male would, would either just look at you across, you know, again, you know, sort of,

00:19:48.120 - 00:20:12.720

from one side of the church to the other, you know, even though you didn t say anything, but you just, you know, you, you, you, it s sort of that, that hidden knowledge, you know, sort of, oh, an awareness, and, er, um, so, and that sort of, um, er, um, er, um, and, and I suppose that sort of, er, my first, er, er, if you don t mind me just, just going back, just talking about,

00:20:12.720 - 00:20:39.500

about myself, and that sort of, um, just talking, just bringing me back to, er, er, the, er, late sixties, my, my first, er, parish priest, and that sort of, er, um, I realised, and that, I didn t know that he was initially gay, um, um, but I, I, it was a bit, sort of, like, Benjamin Britten, er, in one sense, having attraction to, er, um, young boys,

00:20:39.500 - 00:21:04.860

the boys within the church choir, and that sort of thing. He had a boat, and that sort of, er, and, er, um, er, it would travel on the boat from, from Boston, and which had moored in Boston, in Lincolnshire, to, um, another village, um, sort of Horncastle, or Waddlespa, and it was always the boys on the boat, and that sort of thing. Although, there was never anything, um, impropriety

00:21:04.860 - 00:21:32.440

or anything sexual, it was just a, just an attraction, and that, and, er, um, but, and, and he, er, basically, this particular parish priest, he, he also taught old time in sequence dancing, and that sort of, er, and, er, er, he retired to Douglas in the Isle of Man, and, er, and, er, this would be in the early 1970s, and, er, and, er, when, and that sort of,

00:21:32.840 - 00:21:57.080

first time I, I, I sort of, um, stayed, er, he had, he ran a holiday flat business, and, and I stayed sort of overnight, and that sort of, er, er, well, I initially shared a room with him, and that sort of, er, um, er, and, er, and, er, and, and, and I sort of sat in the single bed, and, and, and, and that, that was fine, and, er, um, again, nothing, er, on, on, on toward,

00:21:57.080 - 00:22:24.460

but, but it, it was just in the conversations. It was just when he said that I can t see anything wrong in two male, um, er, people, male people living together, er, er, and, er, and I realised that I, I, I was sort of, um, seventeen at the time, and I thought, ah, you know, you know, sort of, er, so, and that sort of, and I said, no, no, I said, I, I, I, you know, sort of, er,

00:22:24.460 - 00:22:44.960

I, I don t have a problem, you know, sort of, I don t, I don t see anything, although, it, it did sort of, initially, sort of, just took me, it, it took me a little bit, bit by surprise, because I wasn t expecting it, and, er, um, and I thought, now, now what has he got just to say next, but, but he, but he didn t, he sort of left it at that, and, er, um, and then he sort of,

00:22:45.180 - 00:23:12.140

he said, would I, er, go over, you know, to, um, Douglas, and that sort of, er, er, er, um, which is the capital on the Isle of Man, um, er, and, er, um, and, er, basically, sort of, manage his, er, sort of, er, um, holiday, you know, flat business, look after the business, and, er, er, that was the, my only, well, one is always wise with hindsight, and that sort of,

00:23:12.220 - 00:23:35.580

and I thought, now, should I, or shouldn t I have gone, er, you know, taken up that opportunity, but I didn t at the time, because my mother, um, mother s health was failing, um, and, er, she was, er, er, she died of diabetes complications, but before she died in 1977, her, the last four years of her life, you know, was sort of, um, um, deteriorating, and it was very

00:23:35.580 - 00:23:59.860

difficult for me to uproot and, er, and, and, and just leave home, um, because I was twenty when she died, so, and that sort of, er, and we re talking about, sort of, you know, between the ages of sixteen and seventeen, you know, so, um, so, and that sort of, um, er, whether my life would have been, it would have been interesting, yes, and that sort of, er, um, but, um, so, and that

00:23:59.860 - 00:24:32.180

sort of, er, er, and then, and that sort of, um, er, and then, then I, then I met, um, because I had about three or four sort of holidays, really, at Douglas on the Isle of Man, and, and, and I, and I met, um, er, er, through, and that sort of, er, er, my, my, my, er, retired parish priest, and that sort of, er, er, he, and that sort of, er, I realised he gradually, er, er, er,

00:24:32.180 - 00:24:56.160

sort of introduced, er, er, me to one or two of his male colleagues, and that sort of, er, in the, in the lounge, and that sort of, er, um, of the, er, I can t remember the name of the hotel, but it was near the, er, um, near the Villa Marina. It might have been called the Villa Marina Hotel, and that sort of, er, er, pub. Yes, it was, I think it was actually, um, in, in Douglas,

00:24:56.320 - 00:25:19.360

and that sort of, er, and it was always the lounge bar, you know, where, er, he had a, a viking for, er, um, sort of going, going for a whisky, and that sort of, er, and then I realised now, er, looking back, he was an, er, um, um, an alcoholic, because before he died, I learnt he died of, er, um, when he died, er, um, a few years later of cirrhosis in the, of the liver. It,

00:25:19.400 - 00:25:41.700

it was through drink really, um, um, but, um, but, but I had, er, certainly interesting times, you know, sort of, er, um, you know, sort of, um, holidaying, er, er, you know, sort of, er, I used to go, er, um, fly from, um, Eastman and Zareport, you know, sort of, um, er, to Douglas, and, and, and, and stay a fortnight at a time, but, but, but, but, you know, I mean, he was very

00:25:41.700 - 00:26:04.740

kind to me, and, er, um, but, um, er, er, very much, if you like, I suppose, in a way, like in a way, it s the mould that we compare Benjamin Britton, you know, to, you know, sort of, er, how he treated, you know, sort of, er, um, young, young boys, young men. It wasn t, there was never any, anything sexual, it was just an attraction, you know, sort of, er, um, and it, it may have

00:26:04.740 - 00:26:28.500

been the same with me, I, I have no idea, but, er, um, but, but that, that, that, that was, er, um, er, certainly the, the one time when I really felt totally at ease, you know, sort of, er. Yeah. Um. Yeah. Um. And you were still involved in church. Oh yeah, oh, oh yes, I was. Have you, have you always been. Yes, I, I ve always been involved in, with church really,

00:26:28.780 - 00:26:56.000

er, um, and er, I suppose the way, er, er, um, that, that s been the difficulty, in one sense, because, um, in one sense, that, it s been part of my life, and initially I wanted to, I did explore becoming ordained, and that sort of, er, in fact I did go twice down the path of exploring my vocation and ordination, and did go once to a selection conference, and, um,

00:26:56.160 - 00:27:27.080

but I was turned down because I, I realised, I, um, as it turned out, I realised at the selection conference, um, I was the only single male colleague, um, er, at the, er, um, selection conference, that, um, so, and this was in nineteen, er, ninety-one. Okay. And, er, and I, and I, and I realised that sort of, er, even though I hadn t mentioned my sexuality on the

00:27:27.080 - 00:27:56.340

application form, it was the time of the, I don t know if you can recall. Tony Hickton, er, er, he, um, was quite outspoken about, um. I don t know that name. Yeah, er, um, er, but, but his book and his writings at that time, and that were well, were well known within clergy circles, he brought out a couple of books and, er, and, er, and, and the, the tone of questioning,

00:27:56.340 - 00:28:19.960

it was sort of honed in, like, you know, on my sexuality and, er, um, er, and then it got, well not, not, it wasn t so much the direct questioning of sexuality, but even at one, er, sort of interview that, um, had, had a, had I had a, a relationship with a woman, and I, I, and at that point, and I said, oh, with respect, it s none of your business.

00:28:20.260 - 00:28:43.740

And, er, and I realised, I thought, well, that s it. I thought, I m not going to get any further, you know, with that because, er, er, it was just a horrendous time and that sort of, er, um, and, er, I suppose in a way, I could have very, I very easily, I don t know how I kept going to church, but then, you know, sort of, er, it was suggested that I might explore

00:28:43.740 - 00:29:08.300

becoming a reader within the Church of England, um, which I have done, and I have enjoyed my ministry, but, but, but, but certainly latterly, and that sort of, er, um, with how the Church is treating gay people and the attitude to, er, um, sort of, um, not allowing, um, you know, sort of, er, you know, sort of, er, a ceremony, er, you know, a church service, you know, sort of, er,

00:29:08.680 - 00:29:36.160

um, you know, sort of, er, celebrating, um, civil partnerships, and that sort of, er, um, not even a blessing, you know, sort of, er, in God s House of Prayer, um, er, and, er, and now, you know, the, the argument, er, you know, sort of, er, about gay marriage and that sort of, not allowing that to sort of materialise really and, er, um, and even though the, um, you know,

00:29:36.180 - 00:29:58.960

sort of, er, um, the Act has been passed and that sort of, it s now law and that sort of, er, but, but the Church, it, it still thinks it has its final say, you know, sort of, um, um, er, so, er, I, I, I m, I m literally, even though I, I go, I still go to church sort of regularly and I m still actively involved, I, I, I still sort of feel I m only really cling to, by the edge of

00:29:58.960 - 00:30:28.960

my fingertips really, so. Are you still a reader? I, I, I m still a reader, yes. Yeah, you still exercise that ministry. No, no, no, no, no, I, I still exercise that, that ministry, but, but, but, er, um, er, but, but it is, er, I, I am finding it, er, um, difficult, you know, to, even so. Okay. So, they haven t, I mean, they must know that you re with Simeon. Oh, yes,

00:30:28.960 - 00:30:55.380

yes, yes, the, the, the parishes and, and, and the local churches. You ve had a civil partnership. Yes, we had a civil partnership, that s about, um, and, er, er, and, and that was, um, sort of, um, er, at, er, Lincoln, um, and, er, that, that was well, well received, and that s about, the, the sadness, er, on that particular day was my father and, er, my stepmother,

00:30:55.380 - 00:31:19.740

and I still don t know why because my father died last August, and so, um, and he just wouldn t tell me why he was, the sadness was that he was unable to have his photograph taken with me and Simeon on that particular day. He just wouldn t have his photograph taken, or any photograph taken. But he came. But he came. He came, but he just didn t, yeah. Yeah, so, which, which I, I, I, I,

00:31:19.740 - 00:31:49.240

I was sad, er, er, about, um, er, and even though my stepmother has now suddenly been diagnosed with Alzheimer s, but, but, even though it was a civil partnership, er, um, er, everyone, you know, those, um, er, people, elderly, well, relatives of my father s generation referred to it as when you were married. Yeah. You know, that they look upon it as, as a marriage, you know. Yeah. And

00:31:49.800 - 00:32:19.340

so, and that sort of, er, basically, er, um, you know, it, it, it was a, it was a lovely day, you know, and, um, we didn t have a big celebration, but, but, but a, a gathering, a small gathering, sort of, um, sort of at, er, at the Lincoln Register Office, and, and, er, and then, er, um, er, sort of, er, sort of, er, sort of, er, a meal afterwards, and that sort of,

00:32:19.500 - 00:32:46.680

er, I believe it was a lunch, and that sort of, er, and then, then sort of, er, back home at Lincoln, I thought, you know, for a celebratory cake really, so. Oh, that sounds lovely. Um, what year was that? Um, er, er, the, er, I m trying, er, I was, er, seven, um, seven, either seven or eight, er, yeah, yeah, um, seven or eight years. I, I can, I can tell you,

00:32:47.080 - 00:33:15.820

tell you precisely when I look on the, on the clock in, in, in, in the, um, I, I can, I never remember the, the, um, the exact date. I know it was May, it was May the 23rd, but, er, um, yeah, yeah, so that's, um, so either, that's seven or eight years ago, yes. Yeah. So, um, obviously, if you're a reader in the Church of England, um, converting that, for want of a better

00:33:15.820 - 00:33:41.540

word, into a marriage in another church where it was legal would not be an option. Um. I'm a bit unclear when it's reader and when it's ordained a ministry, if, is it the same? Oh, yeah, yeah, yes, certainly, and that's with regard to, and that's, um, er, if, er, um, with, um, Sidney and I would like to transfer, er, er, you know, our, sort of, civil partnership to a

00:33:41.540 - 00:34:07.820

marriage, um, and it'd be interesting to see whether my licence has, has happened within the Church of England. Um, the, er, Sidney Reader Ministry licence has been, if you like, revoked, you know, er, er, er, refused, and that's, um, er, I'm thinking of one or two other readers within other dioceses, and that's, I'm not a hundred percent certain, but I'm certain that's

00:34:07.820 - 00:34:30.180

happened with readers, as it's happened with, within clergy, so, so I would lose my permission to, if you like, er, practise my ministry, you know, sort of, er, um, er, er, I mean, I can't officiate at, at, at, at the Lord's Table, you know, sort of, because I'm not, I'm not priesthood, and that sort of thing, um, but, but I, I would, I would, I, my, er, licence for, for reader

00:34:30.180 - 00:34:56.680

ministry would be withdrawn. Um, er, er, er, I, I haven't, sort of, put that to the test yet, but, um, um, um, but it, it is something that we would like to, er, you know, sort of, er, and because then we, um, er, as other people have said, you know, sort of, er, we are fully, you know, why should we stay just to be, you know, er, a civil partnership, just, just to,

00:34:56.860 - 00:35:15.940

you know, um, I've got to say, you, you know, you, you, you, you've got, er, you've got everything, you know, it's not, it's not the same as, as, er, um, but, you know, people, um, if you say civil partnership, but you know, sort of, er, er, on a form, and that's the way, so if you say we're married, you know, sort of, er, er, you're married, you know, it, it, it,

00:35:15.940 - 00:35:33.920

it doesn't have that same, er, sort of, er, ring of truth to it, you know, so, er, and, and people look at, you know, the, the people, if you say civil partnership, there's, there are various, um, people that, that say, you know, what, you know, why not marriage, you know, sort of, er, the ordinary person in the street, you know, sort of, um, can't see the problem,

00:35:33.920 - 00:35:54.620

em, what, what, what is all the fuss about. And especially with the, em, with the Anglican, you know, sort of, em, primates, you know, sort of meeting this week at, er, em, at Lambeth, you know, sort of, em, em, sort of, em, er, whether that, that will resolve anything or how things will improve or whether things will stay the same. I can t, I can t see much,

00:35:54.680 - 00:36:22.220

much sort of happening, you know, sort of, em, em, we ll just have to see. Yeah. Em, have you had any involvement with LGCM? Em, em, not, not what I call, er, em, er, active involvement with, em, em, LGCM and that sort of thing. Em, my only sort of, er, em, involvement was really sort of, em, in, in the sort of, er, eighties and, and, and nineties and that sort of,

00:36:22.220 - 00:36:52.840

er, em, er, and, er, and, and really sort of, em, you know, through, and that sort of, er, em, er, no, I, I haven t, what I call, I haven t had active involvement. It was really only through, em, Changing Attitude really that I ve had, er, em, involvement which is not the same as LGCM. Em, em, but. Are you still involved with Changing Attitude? Em,

00:36:53.340 - 00:37:18.200

not at the moment, but, but, possibly will be because there is a, because there s no, er, there s looking a possibility of, er, a Changing Attitude group, em, starting in Newcastle. There s a meeting in New, em, in Newcastle, em, next month in February. Oh, OK. So, so, and that sort of, em, but, em, er, er, we did used to be, em, er, member of LGCM and that sort of,

00:37:18.420 - 00:37:40.280

em, but, er, er, I have to, em, confess I m not initially, er, a member as of, you know, this, you know, sort of, em, at this precise moment, but, but I will be, I, I will be, er, em, er, as I, as I ve been reminded by, as Tracey s reminded me, I m not, I m not a member, you know, as of, er, er, neither is Simeon, because Simeon used to be a member and that, but,

00:37:40.340 - 00:38:04.140

so, but, er, but, em, but anyway, but we will be, and that sort of, er, em, because we sort of feel, em, so far away from, you know, from, from events, but, but, but, but, if, if there s more, that, em, she, I ve been reassured that there are more, other members, sort of, in the North East, sort of, Newcastle and, and, er, so, so, and that sort of, er, it, it would be, em, er, good to sort

00:38:04.140 - 00:38:24.400

of, er, try and sort of get, get, get involved. There s not, there s nothing happening in Durham, certainly, and that sort of, er, unfortunately, and that sort of, em, and, and, and everything seems to head towards Newcastle, which although is okay, but it s twenty miles away, you know, sort of, er, it s, it s fine on the train, em, but, but anyway, em, we, we just have to,

00:38:25.280 - 00:38:47.520

even though, em, we ve, we ve had the house here in, in Durham, sort of, em, em, what, sort of, eight, nine years in October, and that sort of, er, em, that, you know, we, we still haven t, what I call, met any other, well, very few, well, only about, probably about one other couple, em, er, gay couple, male couple, and that sort of,

00:38:47.660 - 00:39:07.020

locally, you know, we haven t sort of met any other, em, gay couples and that sort of, and, and as Simon keeps reminding me, we re never going to meet any, any gay friends within, within the church, you know, certainly, em, but that s our experience anyway, and, er, em, but that, that, that s, that s something that, that we, we just want to meet like, again,

00:39:07.120 - 00:39:35.200

like-minded people, you know, em, just, just, just for friendship and companionship really, you know, sort of, so, em, and, and social events and, and sort of, er, em, so, em, er, we, we just have to see, em, er, er, you know, what, em, em, what materialise is doing within, in this forthcoming year really. Yeah. Em, what do you think the future of the Church of England

00:39:35.200 - 00:40:03.560

is? Very bleak. Em, I don t, I don t, I, I, I think it, it s, it s going through a very bleak time and I can, can see even further divisions and even more, more people, em, leaving, you know, sort of, em, as, if you like, as, as so-called, as members of, of, of the Church of England and that sort of thing. I, I can quite see very easily, easily myself and, er, and my partner

00:40:03.560 - 00:40:30.520

leaving the Church of England. Em, it, it, it won t take much at all. And where would you go? Em, well, probably, it sounds awful, probably from the, er, frying pan into the fire, you know, sort of, whether we d become Catholics and even joining the Roman Catholic Church, that would even be worse, you know, sort of, but, er, em, but, but, it has, em, em,

00:40:31.020 - 00:40:55.660

the institution of the Church disappoints us greatly, but it, but it, I haven t lost my faith and belief in God and Jesus Christ. Like, my faith is as strong as ever, em, and that s the difference, you know, there is a difference, you know, sort of, er, my personal faith, you know, that, that, that s my conviction, you know, that, that s not changing, but, but it, it s just the

00:40:55.660 - 00:41:18.480

sadness of the institution that, that, em, that, that, er, you know, they can t seem to just, you know, it s like knocking heads together against a brick wall, you know, for goodness sake, you know, and, and it s just not going to get any better, you know, sort of, em, because the split with Africa and, and, er, em, er, I, that, that, that s, er, I mean, that, that s going to happen

00:41:18.480 - 00:41:45.400

and, and, and, and gay people, er, are becoming, er, even those either out or closeted and those sort of within, you know, sort of, er, em, whether lay or, or clergy or, or, or, you know, even bishops, you know, sort of, er, em, that, that, the, the, the, er, division is going to get, get, get greater, you know, sort of, em, sadly, that, that, I don t see any, I don t see,

00:41:46.180 - 00:42:12.420

em, I, I don t see things sort of, em, em, getting any easier and that sort of, but we have thought about, you know, do we go to, em, some, er, other, you know, sort of, er, institutions sort of, er, em, you know, that welcomes gay people, you know, sort of, em, er, em, or, or do we become a Quaker or, or, you know, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we, we,

00:42:12.460 - 00:42:32.040

I m really, I, I can t, I can t say a hundred percent, but, but I, I, I certainly could be going to some, some people, er, a, a, a church that certainly welcomes gay people anyway and, and sort of, em, and, and embraces us and, and accepts us, even the Metropolitan, you know, but again, there s only one Metropolitan church and that s, that s in Newcastle, so.

00:42:32.080 - 00:42:51.540

Yeah. So, so it s not going to be easy, I suppose, over these next few years. Yeah. Em, what s your experience being as a, as a reader? Are you ever allowed to mention the subject of sexuality within the Church of England? You know, I m thinking in a preaching

00:42:51.540 - 00:43:23.340

capacity or. Em, er, not, not, not, er, well, I, I could refer to it, em, but it s a bit like, sort of, how Billie Eilish, if you watch the film Billie Eilish and that sort of, er, because this is a, a mining community, you know, so an ex-mining communi, er, community, em, and it s still very much a, sort of, macho, you know, sort of, er, feel, you know, in one sense, we feel

00:43:23.800 - 00:43:50.420

almost more isolated, you know, as gay people, you know, sort of, em, you know, here in the North East, but that doesn t stop our attraction for the North East and, and the, and, and the people, but, but, but just, em, er, there is a harshness, you know, sort of, er, em, so no, it s even more difficult to actually sort of preach about oneself and about being gay and,

00:43:50.440 - 00:44:18.040

and who we are, em, er, which is sad, you know, sort of, er, because it, er, er, er, I, I know that if I did, I would, I, I, I, em, I probably wouldn t be asked to, er, to preach again or give a talk again. Or, er, you know, I m, I m, I m, you know, that, that, that s the, er, the sadness. I, I know, you know, em, em, because, because I, I sing in, in the church

00:44:18.040 - 00:44:40.200

choir, I know, even only, only last, last Friday, and that s, er, that, em, and there s one particular choir lady, and that s, er, em, who is, sort of, seventy, seventy-one, and that s, er, and, and a stalwart of the, of the, of the church, and, and, and we, we just sort of, I just, the choir practice had finished, and the evening had gone well, and I just said,

00:44:40.260 - 00:44:59.220

Oh, I said, do you, you know, and I, I ve never watched an episode of The Voice, but there s the, the vicar of Rowlandsgill, I believe, was on an episode, and that s sort of, er, and Rowlandsgill is, is sort of, er, a parished, em, sort of, er, sort of, in, in, still in the Durham Diocese and that, but it s called Rowlandsgill,

00:44:59.820 - 00:45:17.880

spelt R-O-W-L-A-N-D-S, then Gill, G, G-I-L-L. Yeah, there was a vicar on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that s right, but, yeah, and I said, Oh, I said, but, but, but, but, em, you know, we ll, we ll have to watch that, you know, so firstly sing, you know, sort of, em, and I can t remember the, you know, the, the song now, and, and, er, and I said, Oh, I said,

00:45:18.420 - 00:45:41.420

Boy George is on, on the panel, and, er, and, er, and, er, and, er, the choir lady said, oh, she said, that s the trouble, she said, er, they had to give all the gays a job, you know, sort of, er, you know, sort of, er, and I, and I, and I, and I thought, now, I, and I thought, now, I, I wasn t quite sure, I, I, I should have responded to it, but, but it was the end of it,

00:45:41.640 - 00:46:02.480

it was evening, about, about, sort of, quarter past eight in the evening, and I thought, now is, is that a dig at the BBC, or is that referring to me as a gay person being a reader and actively involved, and that s in the church. So, so that s the sort of attitude, constant attitude that you have to sort of, em, put up against, and I was told, when I came, you know,

00:46:02.560 - 00:46:21.420

sort of, you know, sort of, em, you know, sort of, er, here, you know, sort of, em, you know, that, er, it is ha, very much a harsh community and a ha, you know, harsh attitudes because it was a, em, all the parishes were very, you know, sort of, er, mining, you know, sort of, pottery based, you know, sort of, em, you know, sort of, er, I mean, this housing estate,

00:46:21.540 - 00:46:47.180

the, the way I m living now, and lots of this, er, is on a, em, built on a, em, what they call, what was a stag heap, you know, sort of, so, and the mine, this mine, mine closed, and that s forty years ago, so, em, but, em, yeah, so, er, it, it s, er, it s certainly challenging times at the moment. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Are you in, are you in general hopeful for the future of the wider

00:46:47.180 - 00:47:16.120

church, or, I mean, you ve indicated that you think the future s bleak for the Church of England. Mm. But do you think the church as a whole. Em, em, I, I would like to think, er, I d like to, I, I, I, I, I m a positive person. I d like to think that, that, that I m hopeful for the church, er, em, in the wider scheme of things, but, but possibly not in my lifetime. Mm. You know, sort of,

00:47:16.120 - 00:47:43.180

em, where, where, where, you know, sort of, em, will be welcomed and embraced and, and, er, and sort of, you know, sort of, er, union, you know, sort of, er, of, er, marriage, you know, between, em, two people of the same sex, you know, sort of, er, em, I, I can t see that sadly. I d be very surprised if that, if that, if that, er, em, it, it won t, it hasn t happened

00:47:43.180 - 00:48:04.720

yet anyway, and that sort of, er, it, it will certainly take a number of years for, before that to evolve, as it did for, em, you know, the, er, em, just the poor recognition, er, and, er, acceptance of, of problems within marriage, you know, the acceptance of divorced people, you know, so when people s, er, marriage break down and, and the reunion and, and, and for divorced people to,

00:48:05.140 - 00:48:26.560

to marry in church, and that now that, that is more and more, er, accepted, but that s taken quite a number of years, and, and again, it, it, and it s the same for gay people, just, just for them, you know, their, their marriage to, you know, em, er, because, because, again, it s constantly being frowned upon, you know, sort of, er, and being mentioned, you know, sort of, er,

00:48:26.560 - 00:48:43.920

union is between a man and a woman, not, you know, not between a man and a man or a woman, woman, you know, sort of, em, so. Yeah. Ok. That s great. Ok. Thank you so much. Ok, pleasure. Well, I hope, I hope that s, er, that s helpful. No, very. Thank you.

00:48:46.700 - 00:48:48.120

Yes, as I say, I, I, I.