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Hello Joyce, thank you for coming here, it's a pleasure to interview you. Today is Thursday 4th of March 2021, my name is Anna Chiara, or Anna for short, and today we are interviewing Joyce Kalavik for the Sisters Doing It For Themselves oral history project.

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And the first question from me is, when did you first realise that you wanted to pursue a career in helping women and giving them a voice? Well I suppose I've always been, I was a teenager in the 60s in Liverpool and that was a time of real cultural and social change, so I think I've always been a feminist, but my main cause

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has been challenging injustice, and so I've done that at every opportunity, and I've worked with user-led organisations, disabled people, people with learning difficulty, but I came to WISH in 2002 to do some consultancy work with them and then I became acting director and director, and it was then that I felt I'd come home, I'd found the organisation

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which I really wanted to support and represent and support women to have their voices heard. Oh that's nice, I think we're moving on to Arthur now. Hi Joyce, my name is Arthur, it's nice to meet you. My question is to you, what is your story, what event has caused you to step up forward

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and what caused you or who caused you to become who you are today? Oh that's a lot! Well my story is like a lot of women, I did have a very tough beginning, difficult childhood, but I was never prepared to let that weigh on me, and I think that's one of the things is that in life, no matter what happens to you, you have to be prepared

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to experience it, understand it and let it go, because if you don't, you carry all those things around with you for the rest of your life, and you're not the person, and you can't step into your power, you're not the person you are because you're being held back by a lot of experiences, so that would be my first thing is that, you know, sort of always

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be prepared to sort your stuff out. We all have difficult things, life's hard, life's very hard, and you may not see how difficult it is for other people who may appear, you know, to have it all or whatever, but you know that that is the first lesson, life is very hard, so don't dismiss that, and always ensure that you address those difficulties

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and let them go. What was the second part of your question? My second question is, what event caused you to step forward? Well, I'm from a very working class background in Liverpool, and Liverpool people and Northern people are quite different, they do feel they've got a strong voice, they're not conditioned

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by their label of being working class, it's a very strong culture, but in my 20s, when things were getting very difficult, it was just before the Toxbus riots, there was a lot of unrest, and I was on an urban fringe estate in Liverpool, where there was no windows in the bus shelters, you know, all the flats were boarded up, there was no infrastructure

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there, and I just couldn't understand in such an affluent country, how there could be such poverty and social injustice. So I left Liverpool and I went to live on the Isle of Skye, which is a beautiful island in Scotland that's got nothing but beauty, and I think it was that period then, I managed the bars of a hotel, you know, to give me a living, but I wandered

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the mountains, I walked, I thought, I spent a lot of time on my own, I, you know, wanted to confront the big issues in life, not my personal issues necessarily, but how do you work out how there can be such inequality in society, and how can you work out that some people have it so tough. So I think that was the defining moment for me, I spent

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two years there, and I spent a lot of time on my own, I explored different spiritual, not religious, spiritual, you know, theories like Buddhism and Taoism, I did a lot of yoga, and all those things enabled me to have more of a clarity of mind, more clarity, and gain insight into things, so I could understand them, rather than being affected by them.

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And was that the last part of the question? There was one more question, and it was, what caused you or who caused you to become who you are today? Well, I suppose, I've always had a lot of responsibility, you know, all my life. So,

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but that gave me a lot of power as well, the two go hand in hand. A lot of people want the power, but don't really want the responsibility. So I already had power, I felt very empowered. I think I've never been prepared not to challenge something. And I think, not only on a, you know, a global, a big level challenging the big injustices, but I think it's really important,

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when you're, you know, when you see an injustice, or you face something that you don't feel is okay, to challenge it in an appropriate way, because once it's spiralled up, you know, it's already, it's already taken hold, and it's won. I think I had a good education, and I could be financially independent. I, I suppose, I make up my, I don't necessarily

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take the rules that are given. I make my own rules, not illegally, but you know, in terms of what's accepted. I don't label people ever. And yeah, I feel, I feel empowered because of my experience, because of overcoming my experience as well. And I suppose, the other thing is, I think that I've got two daughters, and I only gave, I gave them three pieces

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of advice. One was, you know, always, the first thing you've got to do is sort your own stuff out, because you'll never do anything, or get anywhere, or be happy if you don't. The second was, although education's important, don't be defined by the education system, because that's not, you know, that's society's, you know, view of people. Who are you? What

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do you do? What you've got? What have you got? You know, that's not, that's not important to the core of you. And the third thing was, try and be in control, as women, who may or may not have children, try and be in control of your employment. So that you're, I mean, I've always been, before I joined WISH, I was self-employed. But, you know, in the employment,

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in the place of employment, always make sure you're right for being respected, that you're prepared to challenge, that you're, you know, that you've got a voice there, really, because employment takes up a big, big chunk of people's weeks and lives. And by the time of your pension age, you're probably going to be about 90, I would imagine, the way things are going.

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So, yeah, employment, employment's important. And always be prepared to say what you think and don't, don't, don't be conditioned by what you think people think of you. You know, surround yourself with people who make you feel good, not those people, you know, toxic people who bring you down. You know, you have to protect yourself. I think that's covered it.

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Now, listening to your story, I think we can really almost feel the passion coming through. I don't know if it's just me, but that's what came across for me. Yeah, well, I think I love life. You know, every morning I think, oh, what's this day going to bring? You know, what challenge have I got to rise to? Because otherwise, you just,

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you know, you're brought down. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I guess. Let's hear what Betty. Hi, my name is Betty. And my question for you is, how are you able to bring attention to your cause and make your voice heard?

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In terms of working with WISH? Yeah. Yeah. Well, WISH is a user led organisation. So we ensure that our members and our service

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users are at the core of shaping the organisation and we ensure that their voices are heard inside the organisation. So any campaigning that we do or any work is always shaped by the people who use our services and our members. And I think the passion for the work that I do has come from the frontline work that I've done. I was an advocate in a forensic

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unit. And most of our management staff always do some frontline work. And actually working with the women and seeing, you know, what they've had to work through in their lives, you know, that they may be in prison or they may be in hospital or they may be struggling in the community. But actually, they are, you know, to have survived, you know, the

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background and the lives that they've had is, you know, is incredible. They're really strong women. So, you know, sort of it's, I mean, I always regard it as a privilege to work in WISH and to work representing those women and supporting them and believing in them and validating them. So that's where my passion comes from, really. I don't think

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anybody who sits in an office reading research and policy can ever really understand or know the women that we work with and can't really represent them. So I think, yeah, definitely the women and being on the front line. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, I'm sorry, I was on mute. Question number four is from Elizabeth. Hi, my name is Elizabeth. My question is, what

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kind of rights do you usually have to defend for these women? And is that created by circumstance or by people around them? Well, women find themselves in, you know, different situations and different environments. So in the forensic hospitals where women are detained, we operate a gender specific trauma informed approach. So we try to ensure that we build a relationship

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of trust with women so that they can, you know, they can feel safe in sharing information and asking us to represent them or advocate for them. The women, they will have had, they'll be various, they'll be detained under various sections, but they'll, and in a way they're the same group of women who are the women in prison. They will have had very traumatic beginnings,

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abusive relationships. And as a result of all that, they find themselves, they may be instigating coping mechanisms. So it could be eating disorder, some women self-injure by cutting. Other women, you know, are addicted to drugs and alcohol. Women lose their children because they're not seen as fit mothers. So in all these situations, it means that women

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don't cope well with life. So in a hospital situation, we would try to ensure they have their voice heard in their treatment and care and can, you know, sort of be involved in that process rather than it being done to them, that they can have their voices heard. But women, it's very difficult because women who have a strong voice are seen as challenging

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and other women are seen as not cooperating. So, you know, the onus is always put on the woman. So trying to ensure she has her voice heard is, you know, of prime importance. In the prisons, the way women are represented in court, we support women, we accompany them, we write letters on their behalf. And, you know, if judges can understand the backdrop

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to women's lives, then there's much more lenient sentence or, you know, or release than they're not required to, you know, sort of stay in prison any longer. But in the community, I mean, obviously women struggle, they have to suffer different, you know, financial issues. They can be hate crime. But the main right, and this is something that we want to,

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we're starting to work on now, is that those women with the most complex needs and the most need, statutory services find very difficult to work with, and therefore they often withdraw services from these women because they're challenging. Which, of course, women, you know, sort of, it's common, it's well known that white,

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middle-class people get the best out of services. They know what their rights are, they demand them, and they get the best. Now, these women who've got the highest need, you know, are often dismissed from services. So that's a project that we want to take forward now. And also, we've just, we're just about to start a campaign or develop a campaign around

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enabling women to have access to free talking therapies, because that's, I think that's one of the reasons women are silenced by the system. And giving them a voice will start with them being able to, you know, look at, you know, explore their own experience and not necessarily let go of it, but at least come to terms with it and be able to carry on living their lives.

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So that's quite exciting, you know, we're taking that forward in the coming years. Yeah, so the right to be heard, the right to get services, the right to be involved, the right not to be labelled, and the right, the right to respect, really. I also believe that the right to respect is very important. And it just summarises everything that

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not just women, but everyone should have. Question number five, about the importance of your job from Jade. Hi, my name is Jade. It's nice meeting you. My question is, what is the importance of campaigning and supporting women for gender specific services rather than mixed services?

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We were, in the early noughties, in like 2002, there was a policy document called Into the Mainstream, which is about, which WISH had quite a big input into. And it was about recognition, really, that women's mental health has different causative factors than men, and that they need different services to address that. So, there used to be mixed wards on,

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you know, forensic units. Absolutely, you know, the majority of women will have been the causative factors in their mental health will have been trauma and abuse in childhood. So, to have to be on a ward with men, you know, it was completely unacceptable. And now that is, that is not the case in forensic units, but it's still the case in, you know, the acute ward.

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So, you know, there's work to be done there, but, and the Into the Mainstream, it was a great policy, but there wasn't, there weren't really any resources to put any policy into practice. And I think that's what we found in WISH, that you, you know, you can, you could, I don't know, I always say they should put wallpaper Buckingham Palace with the report, the policy, the research.

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But if nothing happens as a result of them, then it's all just, you know, sort of, it's all just rhetoric really, isn't it? So, it's quite hard. And we're also a service delivery organisation as well. And our aim is to pilot projects. And then, you know, monitor them and evaluate them and roll them out and campaign.

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But we are a very small organisation. And, you know, we're all very committed. But we need to grow, you know, to grow women's voice really. And we've got to that stage now where, you know, we're at a point where we feel we can take more campaigns forward. And we can only do that.

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I mean, if you, there isn't, I mean, I come, basically, my background is in the disability movement, which mental health is a part of, you know, it's a part of, it's classified as a disability, although that's not always recognised by everybody. But the disability movement has a very strong, a strong voice.

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I don't know if you've heard of DPAC, Disabled People First. And so, they've got, and People First is a self-advocacy organisation for people with learning difficulties. They've had a very strong voice. But somehow, women's voice, you know, women have been silenced. And so, how to, you know, it's a big challenge, really, how to draw that together.

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And also, the sectors, the women's sector, the mental health sector, the advocacy sector, we work across sectors. So, we are just, we are just, we've just written a new business strategy. And one of our prime objectives is to identify, you know, who you are, our collective group that we're representing is, you know, our service users, our members,

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members of the Women's Mental Health Network, supporters, and how we can bring those, that group together to have a stronger and louder and more effective voice, really. And I suppose my own, my own belief is that you can't wait for change to happen. You've got to do it, you know, no matter how small. So, establishing talking therapies is one thing.

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Just, you know, get the evidence, make it happen, make commissioners pay for it, you know, sort of, because, you know, the financial cost, if one woman has, you know, sort of good trauma-informed talking therapy for a proper period of time, that could save imprisonment, that could save imprisonment, because that costs, you know, that has to be part.

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Hospital admission, A&E, police being called out, it's actually making people understand that, you know, this is not only a benefit to women, it's a benefit to society and to the money part as well. And in a way, unfortunately, it is money that talks, although, you know, I'd like to think it's not the most important thing, you know, that is the thing that most people take notice of.

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And I think the thing is, as well, that policymakers or services make decisions based on very short-term strategy, not on a longer-term strategy. So, but actually, if a year of talking therapies can enable women to be less dependent on statutory services, cope better, you know, have settled better in the community, feel more, feel safer,

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then a year is not that long, you know, to demonstrate the financial gain of the, you know, the statutory part. So that's our aim in this campaign. Yeah, thank you. Moving on the line to Jasmine.

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Hello, it's been really nice to meet you. Yeah, my question is, what do you think is the importance of and why is WISH process driven rather than outcome driven? Oh, well, we, I suppose we are, in terms of our services, we are outcome driven. You know, we have to, we have to demonstrate that the work we're doing has positive outcomes for women.

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So we have our theory of change. We just got a new theory of change. The overarching theme is positive pathways for women. And because it's no use providing services if all we do is keep women, you know, on the same path, really. If we don't support them to, you know, sort of move and change and be more in control.

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And so we'd like to think that our campaigning is based on the positive outcomes we support women to gain. And the process of doing, it's hard, isn't it? Change is hard. You know, even in your own lives, think about it. You just want to change one thing. It's hard. You know, so changing the whole way, you know, a service or society views people is a very difficult thing.

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And I think that. You know. We shouldn't. We don't necessarily have to expect people to agree with us that we're right in wanting this. We just have to provide the evidence and then do it. I think making change happen. Is.

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It's dependent on. Not. It's about not letting other things, other protocols get in your way. It's about you don't have to convince somebody beforehand. We got some funding from Hope and Grace to pilot our counselling, our talking therapies, which was great.

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And now we're trying to get more funding to drive that forward. So it's about and it's about, you know, obviously now, you know, social media, how things are, information is transmitted. How supporters are gained is very important. So we realise we can't do this on our own and we want more supporters. And so I've just heard that there are seven sort of small organisations fundraising for Wish for International Women's Day.

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And so what we want to do is we don't only want supporters, one off supporters. We want true fans that we're building. We want to build our supporter and strategy on and involving people who are really passionate about our cause. And not only able to support us financially, but supporters in terms of campaigning and raising issues. So it's about it's about it's about the crowd, you know, the crowd we have behind us, making sure they've got our back.

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So that's how we're going to move forward with that. Yeah, it sounds really good how you're building up your fans. And yes, very much. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I also think, as you were saying, change is not only just hard to make a change, but it's also sometimes hard to accept that change once it's happened.

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Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You might be on a personal level. You might be thinking something will get you where you want to be. But when you make that change, it may be not the right one. And also in terms of. I mean. Change is constant. Adapting to change is. It's the route of survival, really.

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I mean, we can see that environmentally. But. Practitioners working in statutory services, they have so many changes, you know, all the time. Government legislative changes. Yeah. But, yeah, accepting it and going with it. It's hard.

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It's hard. But I think change has got to be the basis of everything, really. Most definitely. Question number seven from Neve. Hi, my name is Neve. Lovely to meet you. My question for you is, how do women find out about your company and access support? Well, we've. A lot of women have been with us for a long time.

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So. And then we've got a presence or we've got members in prison. So most people know about we've got a very long history and there's a lot of women with. And older women anyway with complex needs have been, you know, sort of part of which for a long time. We have advocacy services in hospitals. We've got we've got our website.

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But we do. I mean, we want to drive awareness of our organisation forward. And this is, you know, this is part of our new business strategy. We want to engage. And there's obviously there's also social media. We've done some films. We've had documents, you know, somebody made a documentary for us and were able to show that.

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We do interviews like this one. We do radio interviews. So. But if you've got any good ideas about how we can connect with women and engage with them and consult with them about what they want. Then, you know, I'd be very happy to hear that. And also, you know, mental health has changed. Well, certainly over the last year with the pandemic, there's been a huge long term impact on everyone's mental health.

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But I think especially young people and young women, you know, it's extremely difficult. Usually the time when you're, you know, you're full of hope, you're looking at your aspirations and how you reach them. You know, even the most resilient people are feeling the stress and finding it difficult to cope. But also young women have different stresses, social media, image, labelling, you know, peer, you know, needing peer recognition and peer approval.

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I think, you know, the challenges that young women are facing, you know, are great. And I think WISH needs to become more informed about that. You know. Yeah, definitely. Thank you. I truly think it's amazing that WISH has made it possible for anyone to reach out for support.

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Yeah, it's pretty cool. Serenity, would you like to give us your question? Hi, my name is Serenity, lovely to meet you. So my question today is what support is provided when returning individuals back into the community?

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And do you enjoy your job? Oh, well, I love it. I've been trying to retire for seven years. A long road. But I absolutely love the work. You know, I do. I think it's a great privilege to work in WISH and to support women.

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So what is available to support women when they are leaving prison or hospital? Are you saying, is that your question? Yeah, when they're leaving hospital or whatever facility they're in. OK, so women leaving hospital, they will normally be leaving under the mental health team.

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And they will have sort of ongoing support to a certain extent. And it's quite a slow process of stepping down, possibly through security. But women leaving prison, you know, it's a very different story. Women, I mean, it's now commonly acknowledged that the majority of women should never be in prison.

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They go to prison for a short period for minor offences. They can often lose their home, their children. And then they get trapped in prison. They don't feel safe. There's no, there can be no, they can come out without being housed.

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And, you know, prisons have been known to give women a sleeping bag. They, you know, they may be, maybe prison will release them without any medication. So immediately they spiral down. They may not have, they may not have friends or family. So it's very, it's not like they're just.

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It's very likely that you have a home and it's family waiting. But when a woman does, that's not going to be the case. And so we support women, you know, in terms of through the gate. And then we connect with women and we look at what their immediate needs are.

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They could have debt. They could have housing issues. They might need medication. They might, they might feel very anxious or isolated. So we look at the woman and, you know, what her needs are immediately. And then we try to work to settle her in the community.

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And then we'll move to enabling her to cope. Maybe on a day to day basis and obviously also crisis that may occur. And we've sort of reviewed our model of support. So that we can ask for women to talk in their previous life and trauma, then nothing's going to change.

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We don't want to be supporting them to go through crisis after crisis and, you know, fail. So, you know, offering talking therapy is one area that we feel is very relevant to them. And then, you know, we have our ongoing support and crisis support. But in terms of our positive pathways, we want to enable women to look to the future.

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And, you know, to find out what their dreams are, what their aspirations are. You know, so that they're not constantly on that treadmill of, you know, trying to rehabilitate. You know, prison's not great. So you can imagine what it's like in terms of women's community experience if they prefer prison.

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You know, to give them support. So we're recruiting volunteers so that we can have a volunteer to work with, you know, women on identifying what is, you know, what's their dream. And it doesn't have to be big, you know, dreams. What really, you know, what would really make a difference to their lives?

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What they want to work towards. So we want to try and look at somebody as a helper, not as a, you know, a constant support need. Thank you very much for the answer. That was really good from you.

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Thank you. Question number nine from Khadiza. Hi, my name is Khadiza. It's been a pleasure to meet you. My question is, is there an achievement you're most proud of?

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And do you have a goal for the future? I don't know about my achievements. Yeah, I think my greatest achievement is that I don't, I protect myself. I don't let bad things affect me.

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You know, I don't let them sweep me off my feet. But I also don't let good things affect me, you know, in terms of, you know, being, yeah, this is it. I found it. So I think my greatest achievement is sort of seeing things for what they are and not really being completely affected by them.

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But, you know, being influenced, but not being affected. And that means that I can, you know, keep a firmer grip on life. Otherwise, you're just being sort of buffeted backward and forward by good things. So I think that, and then that enables me to be more effective in the way I work.

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And also my, I think my lifelong practice of yoga. I've been doing yoga for 50 years. And honestly, it's the best thing physically and mentally. Absolutely.

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And it doesn't have to be, you know, sort of hanging upside down from the beams. It can be at whatever level you like. But it's definitely something that's very stabilising. And what am I looking forward to?

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Is that, was that the next bit? Yes. Oh, retirement. I've got, I'm looking forward to, yeah, less busyness in my life and more, I got an old BW, which I've kitted for being off grid.

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So I'm looking forward to roaming those hills again. I've got grandchildren. I've got one grandchild who's seven months and my other daughter's having a baby. So I'm looking forward to spending time with them as well.

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Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks.

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And lastly, a quick question from me to wrap up this interview, which is from your experience, what is the best advice you've given to someone struggling to find their voice and speak out? Oh. Oh. I think it.

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I might have put you on the spot there. No, I mean, I think, you know, in general, always encouraging people to believe in themselves. Not to be conditioned by other people's perceptions and women especially to step into their own power as a woman. Not, you know, not feel you've got to, not feel they've got to, you know, sort of emulate a male role model, especially in work.

00:44:13.080 - 00:44:27.080

You know, feel confident in who you are, you know, sort of. And don't. And I think the other thing is that. The other thing that I often say is that, you know.

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You know, people say, you know, it was a mistake. I did this one mistake. I did that. And the thing is, there are no mistakes.

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Stuff happens. And, you know, you learn, you learn from things. And you can never know whether taking one route would have been better than another because you don't know what's going to happen on the way. And I think that.

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And I think the other thing is. I mean, I've got to say this, you know. I'm a child of the 60s and an ex-hippie. So I've got to say that music is very, very, music and poetry and the art is very important.

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We get sort of caught up, don't we? And, you know, if we've got strong political or social beliefs, we get caught up in that. You know, sort of the power of the art is incredibly important. So definitely have some balance in your life.

00:45:35.080 - 00:45:53.080

Yeah. And, yeah, definitely believe in yourself. And challenge. I think that sounds like great advice for anyone to pick up on, really.

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So thank you for that. And thank you so much for your time. It has been lovely and very inspirational for us all. Oh, thank you.

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Well, it's great. It's great to speak to young women. You know, you're emerging to make your mark on the world. You know, sort of feel, yeah, to feel powerful.

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Yeah, to feel your own power. Not be apologetic at all in any way. It's lovely. Thank you.

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We're happy you enjoyed it. And we hope maybe we may interview again one day. Yeah. Thank you very much.

00:46:37.080 - 00:46:41.080

Thank you. It was lovely. Thank you. Thank you for giving me an opportunity.

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Thank you very much. It's been really nice. Thank you. Thank you.

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Have a good evening. Thank you. Thank you. Bye.

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Bye. Bye.