00:00:00.000 - 00:01:12.660

Could you tell me a bit about your background, your childhood, where you grew up from? How did you come to know your family? I didn't know my family until I was about six, seven years old. But when I was about five or six, we moved from Middlesex down to Kent, moved into a place called Dumpton.

00:01:14.000 - 00:01:37.740

A very pretty little area between Ramsgate and Broadstairs in the Isle of Thanet. Had a large detached house with huge grounds and we used to raise chickens. Had this big chicken pen and I remember as a child we also captured a hare that got into the chicken run. So rather than having a rabbit as a child, I had a hare for a long time.

00:01:38.460 - 00:01:57.980

Which was very interesting because it wouldn't let anybody else go near it except me. But it was in that garden that I learnt how not to ride a bike. I had never been able to ride a pushbike because I became absolutely petrified of them. Because every time I tried to ride a bike I would end up falling into one of the gooseberry bushes.

00:01:58.680 - 00:02:26.760

Which is not a good thing, they are incredibly prickly and painful. But we lived there for several years, about three or four years and then we actually moved into Ramsgate. And I remember at one point my mum's brother, my uncle and his partner, I think they were actually married, also lived with us. Because my mum has two brothers as well as a sister.

00:02:27.440 - 00:02:57.840

So I think they lived with us as well for a while. So we then moved into Ramsgate and into a large four storey house. And that's when I started to be able to go to church. Prior to that, evidently I had always been nagging my mum from a very, very early age to go to church.

00:02:58.380 - 00:03:13.920

But she wouldn't take me. And they found it really strange because they weren't church goers. The only time they ever went to church was for what we call hatchings, matchings and dispatchings. You know, for baptisms, funerals and weddings.

00:03:14.540 - 00:03:37.960

So to have a child that wanted to go to church, they found very strange. But when we moved to the house in Ramsgate, in Codrington Road, the house was in the middle of a street. And if you went to the end of the road and turned right, on the next corner was a little Presbyterian chapel. So I didn't have to cross a road and I was seven or eight years old at that time.

00:03:38.700 - 00:03:57.200

And my mum would let me then start going to the Sunday school. Because she would stand on the doorstep and she would watch me walk to the end of the road. And then at the time when I should be coming back home from church, she would be standing on the doorstep to watch me come round the corner of the road. She wouldn't even walk to the corner of the road with me, never mind take me.

00:03:57.820 - 00:04:19.760

But that meant that I was able to start going to church, which was really important to me. By this point in time, I had another brother. There was a six year gap between myself and my next brother. And then a little while later, my third brother came along after another three years.

00:04:21.260 - 00:04:37.780

So it was while we were living in that house that my father left. He left when I was twelve. And at the same time as he left, my next brother down, the six year old brother, we were waiting for the ambulance to arrive because he was incredibly ill.

00:04:38.400 - 00:05:02.300

His appendix had burst and he had peritonitis and they didn't think that he would actually survive the operation. I'm pleased to say that he did, but he's never been particularly healthy, unfortunately. So life went on with the family now, with my mum, my auntie and my grandmother in it, and my three brothers and myself.

00:05:03.360 - 00:05:25.800

A couple of years later, we started fostering children with learning disabilities, particularly Down Syndrome children, initially. So the house was always full, always full with children, with caring. We got into that though through the dancing.

00:05:26.840 - 00:05:44.320

My grandmother used to take me to do ballet and tap, and also ballroom and Latin American, which my older brother did as well for a period of time. And our dance teachers also taught dance at one of the local schools, residential schools for children with disabilities.

00:05:45.740 - 00:06:01.280

So we used to go along to their fundraising dances and things. And whilst there, the headmaster approached my grandmother about whether she had ever thought of fostering during the school holidays, because some of the children there had nowhere to go in the school holidays.

00:06:01.940 - 00:06:17.720

And my grandmother had been a foster carer when we lived in London. And so she said, yes, we'll give it a whirl. And so we started having two young lads, who were the same age as myself, for school holidays.

00:06:18.560 - 00:06:32.340

And then when they reached 16 and had to leave the school, they came to live with us permanently. And then other children came, some for short periods, some for longer periods. And now I have two extra brothers.

00:06:33.000 - 00:06:45.060

One that was adopted, because he came to us when he was only three. And my older brother is only a foster brother, because he didn't come to us until he was nearly 18. So it was too late to adopt him.

00:06:46.200 - 00:06:59.380

But they've both been in my family for 30-odd years. So as far as I'm concerned, they're just my brothers. So I now have five brothers, rather than three. And no sisters.

00:06:59.600 - 00:07:18.600

I don't know why my mum never wanted to adopt any girls. Maybe I was enough, or one was enough. But yeah, so as I say, it was always a busy household. I went to school locally, and went on to the grammar school

00:07:18.600 - 00:07:32.560

at the age of 12, 11, 12. And from there, I went on to the local technical college to do some A-levels. And then went out to work.

00:07:34.380 - 00:07:44.940

You did talk about the interest of going to church and the ballet dance. Did you have any other interests when you were growing up? Not really.

00:07:45.860 - 00:07:58.020

Things really were sort of around what I was doing with the church. The ballet dancing, and all the dancing, took up a huge amount of time. I mean, because I was doing, say, ballet, tap, ballroom,

00:07:58.020 - 00:08:11.220

and Latin American. And I actually took the ballroom and Latin American up to taking my teacher's exams, to teach it myself. So up to the age of sort of 15, 16,

00:08:11.420 - 00:08:26.360

just before I started doing my exams in school, four or five nights a week were devoted to dancing. Dancing is in the family. My uncle, the youngest one of my mum's brothers,

00:08:26.860 - 00:08:33.160

he was a ballet dancer. And he actually danced with Sadler's Whirls until he got married. And his wife said being a ballet dancer

00:08:33.160 - 00:08:39.860

was not a suitable profession for a married man. So he gave it up. And my mum was a tiller girl, which is a bit like the bluebell girls,

00:08:39.920 - 00:08:52.160

the ones that used to do the music hall and do all the high kicking and everything on stage. She travelled all over the place as a tiller girl. Again, prior to getting married.

00:08:52.280 - 00:09:02.860

That's actually how she met my father. So dancing was very much in the family, in the blood, if you like. And so I used to really enjoy it.

00:09:03.180 - 00:09:10.560

I gave up the ballet and the tap probably when I was around 14. But I carried on with the ballroom and Latin American for some time longer.

00:09:11.040 - 00:09:21.100

And as I say, took that to the point of taking exams to actually teach it. But apart from that, it was things to do with the church.

00:09:22.780 - 00:09:34.720

And the Presbyterian chapel that I was attending closed down when I was about 14. To build some flats on the site, it got sold off. So that's when I then started attending the Baptist Church.

00:09:35.600 - 00:09:51.040

And I got into the Baptist Church really by chance. I'd heard that the Baptist Church had a boys' brigade and I thought this would be good for my younger brothers. So I decided that I was going to take them along,

00:09:51.320 - 00:10:01.980

which was on a Monday night. So I took my next brother down, Sean, along to the boys' brigade. And that particular night,

00:10:02.040 - 00:10:11.940

it happened to be absolutely pouring with rain. So by the time I got there, I was pretty soaked. And the thought of then walking back home and then having to come back again in the rain

00:10:11.940 - 00:10:21.540

to pick him up later, I thought this is really silly. I'm just never going to dry out. So I decided to stay and wait.

00:10:21.780 - 00:10:31.520

So of course I then got involved and I ended up joining the boys' brigade myself and was an officer in the boys' brigade for many years. I think my brothers gave up on it,

00:10:31.620 - 00:10:42.020

but I continued with it. And so I started attending the Baptist Church and started teaching Sunday school there and remained at the Baptist Church

00:10:42.020 - 00:10:53.820

until I left for work when I was 18. I was still in that church. I used to help run the summer programmes for a week in the summer holidays.

00:10:53.820 - 00:11:10.500

We would do a club every day of the week in the mornings and I used to help run that and things. So yeah, pretty much what was my school studies, there wasn't really any time for anything else.

00:11:11.240 - 00:11:23.800

It kept me very busy. What about your culture when you were growing up? How was the culture? That's quite an interesting question.

00:11:23.820 - 00:11:40.020

Because in lots of respects, I grew up very closeted. My family was really quite insular. They didn't really socialise or go out and about.

00:11:40.660 - 00:11:58.700

My mum certainly didn't have any friends. Her life was caring for us and the household and my grandmother, who was starting to become frailer. And my auntie went out to work,

00:11:59.120 - 00:12:09.660

but she worked shift work. I know she socialised with some of the other people from the factory where she worked. And my grandmother, I know, used to go to bingo.

00:12:11.520 - 00:12:24.080

But they didn't really have a crowd of friends or anything like that. And in lots of respects, it was really very old-fashioned.

00:12:24.560 - 00:12:33.880

I mean, I would say I was really brought up by my grandmother rather than my mother, because she owned the house, she ruled the house. What she said went.

00:12:36.040 - 00:12:52.160

So it was a very old-fashioned upbringing. And I guess it was quite typically white, middle-class sort of an upbringing. We weren't rich, but we weren't paupers.

00:12:54.360 - 00:13:04.600

You know, there were some issues, because obviously when my father left, my mother was dependent on my grandmother financially quite considerably.

00:13:05.380 - 00:13:18.720

So I do remember times in school where there may have been trips or stuff was needed for home economics class or something, and my mother really just didn't have the money

00:13:18.720 - 00:13:35.200

to be able to pay for those things. So I guess my culture was really quite boring, thinking back over it. You know, we just literally went from one day to the other.

00:13:36.020 - 00:13:52.940

And my grandmother had quite strict Victorian morals and rules about how we should behave. We always had to walk properly, upright, with our shoulders back. There was no slouching.

00:13:53.380 - 00:14:03.120

You know, our deportment was very important. We had to speak correctly. I mean, I make people laugh now, because one of her phrases was, you know,

00:14:04.040 - 00:14:19.560

God put a T in that word, the least you can do is sound it. You know, and things like this, if we ever was to not pronounce a word properly or whatever. And so how we spoke, how we presented ourselves,

00:14:19.960 - 00:14:36.480

it was very important. And yeah, it's interesting thinking back around those things. Public image was very important. You know, you didn't air your dirty laundry in public

00:14:36.480 - 00:14:46.500

whenever you were outside, you had to behave and present yourself well. I remember that being very important. So how did you feel about that?

00:14:48.760 - 00:15:03.020

The majority of the time it really wasn't an issue, but at other times it was quite restricting. You know, from the point of view that I know my friends could just bring friends home from school any time.

00:15:04.600 - 00:15:16.000

You know, they could go out and about. I didn't have that freedom. You know, friends were not welcome in my home. I mean, I would have to sort of give six months notice

00:15:16.000 - 00:15:26.560

in advance in triplicate or something if I wanted to invite a friend back. And I don't think I would want to have invited a friend back because there wasn't that sort of comfortable,

00:15:27.800 - 00:15:41.060

free atmosphere within the home to do so. So there were restrictions on that. Also, there were restrictions on my going out. Again, there were very strict bedtimes

00:15:41.060 - 00:15:59.340

and, you know, where I was allowed to go, not go. Very overly protective in some ways. So it was very difficult for me to socialise in the same way as my friends were.

00:16:00.020 - 00:16:07.900

I often say that I actually went from being a child to being an adult. I didn't really have a teen years. And that was for a number of reasons.

00:16:08.920 - 00:16:25.980

One was, I think, with the advent of my father leaving and my brother almost dying at exactly the same time, this obviously had a huge impact on my mum. And her focus was very much around my younger brother.

00:16:26.120 - 00:16:37.200

I mean, he was in hospital for months and months and months. And so with her focus being on that, I really took over bringing up my youngest brother, who was only three at the time,

00:16:37.800 - 00:16:46.200

to the point where a lot of people actually thought that he was my son rather than my mum's because I was never seen without him. You know, you saw me, you saw the pushchair.

00:16:46.640 - 00:16:55.780

End of story. So I spent a lot of time caring for him. And then when things settled down, that's when we started fostering.

00:16:56.620 - 00:17:12.120

And so I would also be caring for the foster children as well. My older brother went off the rails a bit, so he was causing problems. And again, a lot of focus then had to be put towards him.

00:17:13.500 - 00:17:26.280

So, you know, I'd say I went from being a child at the age of 11 to suddenly at the age of 12 having to be an adult and take a lot more responsibility and care for my brothers and for the family

00:17:26.280 - 00:17:41.300

and just really get on with life. So have you got any best day or worst day during your childhood? Best day or worst day of my childhood? I'm the first.

00:17:44.560 - 00:18:09.980

Oh, lots of different days are flashing through my head now. It's so difficult to pick a worst day. I mean, there were various incidents that I know I found quite difficult to cope with.

00:18:15.080 - 00:18:34.740

My mother never really ever showed me any respect, I think is probably the best way to put it. So I never felt valued and it wasn't just my mother either. It was a very strange situation,

00:18:36.240 - 00:18:50.240

being brought up in a household with three female adults and three male siblings. And the situation was that my grandmother absolutely idolised my older brother.

00:18:50.240 - 00:19:00.700

He could do no wrong. It didn't matter what he did or anything, he was perfect in her eyes. He was born prematurely and was very ill

00:19:00.700 - 00:19:11.740

and my grandmother, so the story goes, actually wanted to adopt him from my mother. She wanted to take him on, so that's how strongly she had bonded with my older brother.

00:19:12.720 - 00:19:31.160

My auntie always had the thing for the youngest child. So my youngest brother was clearly her favourite. She spent a lot of time and energy on him. And my next brother down was the one

00:19:31.160 - 00:19:46.980

that was very ill and who nearly died. And so my mum's focus was very clearly around him. So I never really felt that I belonged. I always used to laugh and joke about the fact

00:19:47.080 - 00:19:58.780

that maybe I was adopted or found on the doorstep because I was nothing like them and I never really felt that I belonged in that family. Unfortunately, I do physically resemble them,

00:19:58.960 - 00:20:10.680

so I clearly wasn't found on the doorstep. But when it comes to personality, to likes and dislikes, I really have nothing in common.

00:20:11.420 - 00:20:27.860

And not just as a child, as we've gone through adulthood, I have nothing in common with my family. Except I've inherited all their physical ailments, unfortunately. So it was always difficult.

00:20:28.180 - 00:20:39.960

I was never good enough. I don't know to this day whatever it was that I ever did wrong. Well, I do have an idea of what it was that was wrong. Unfortunately, my father always wanted a daughter.

00:20:41.420 - 00:20:53.800

And so my mother, my grandmother, my auntie, all saw that he actually favoured me even though I didn't favour him. And consequently, when he left,

00:20:54.020 - 00:21:07.040

I then became the focus for their anger towards him. But consequently, as I say, I could never do anything good enough. And I guess one of the worst days for me was,

00:21:07.820 - 00:21:23.640

which was also mixed in with one of the best memories, I couldn't do art O-level, which is what today is GCSE level. When I was at school, because I was doing sciences and they had this antiquated system

00:21:23.640 - 00:21:37.240

that you either went sciences or you went arts. And as I was doing sciences, I couldn't do art. So when I went on to the technical college to do my A-levels, because I wanted more freedom around the topics I chose,

00:21:38.040 - 00:21:49.160

I actually did art O-level in the first year. Of my A-levels as well. And I got a grade A. And so I was so chuffed,

00:21:49.220 - 00:21:58.320

because I'd only spent a year on this and I got the top grade for it. And I remember being really excited about sharing this and I shared it with them.

00:21:58.720 - 00:22:06.300

And the comment I got back from my grandmother was, how can you possibly have got an A? Your brother only got a B and he's a far better artist than you.

00:22:08.680 - 00:22:18.340

And so that was really painful. My older brother only did two O-levels, because he actually got kicked out of school before he got to do them and things.

00:22:19.060 - 00:22:32.680

But he later took two and art was one of them. Whereas I got several qualifications, but I think seven or eight O-levels, two A-levels, intermediate maths,

00:22:33.340 - 00:22:44.860

and then obviously I've gone on and done degrees and things. But at that point in time, it was obviously very, very painful that there was no celebration of my achievement,

00:22:45.460 - 00:22:55.320

but just a denigration of it, because I couldn't possibly be better than my brother. So I guess a good and a negative one all rolled up in one in that example.

00:22:56.020 - 00:23:10.320

Did you try to push yourself hard in order to please your family? I think I did, but I think there was probably a pendulum swing going on.

00:23:10.540 - 00:23:24.460

Looking back, I think there were times when I just really thought, well, what's the point? And didn't want to put any effort into doing anything, because I knew it would never be respected,

00:23:24.640 - 00:23:34.060

it would never be accepted, it just would never be good enough. And even if it was, it would have to be denigrated,

00:23:34.220 - 00:23:47.500

because I was not allowed to be more accomplished or better in any way, shape or form than my brother. But then there was also, like any child, you want to please your parents,

00:23:47.600 - 00:23:58.960

you want to have the accolade from them. And so there was also those times when I would push myself and strive harder and harder to try and do something

00:23:58.960 - 00:24:14.360

that would receive that approval. I don't think I've achieved it yet, and I think I have given up now. Could you tell me about your story of coming out,

00:24:14.760 - 00:24:33.460

your awareness of being LGBTQ? Okay, yeah, it was quite interesting, because as a young woman, I had boyfriends, and I had no knowledge or understanding

00:24:33.460 - 00:24:41.240

that I might be a lesbian. But I think partly that was because I had no real knowledge or understanding that there was any opportunity

00:24:42.160 - 00:24:52.980

to be anything other than heterosexual, because, as I say, I'd grown up in a very old-fashioned family. However, when I was doing my A-levels at college,

00:24:53.600 - 00:25:05.600

I went out with this guy, Michael, for a while, and I think one of the reasons that we got on so well was because he was also gay, and he came out whilst we were at college,

00:25:05.640 - 00:25:18.320

and we remained really good friends for a long, long time. So it wasn't that I didn't know gay people, I just never thought that, for some reason, never thought that that could possibly be me.

00:25:18.780 - 00:25:34.440

And yet when I look back, I see that I actually did have relationships with girls that were clearly not just friendships, but never, ever associated that,

00:25:34.580 - 00:25:48.080

never linked that at all at that point in time. It wasn't until I was 23 that I realised my sexuality. And it's quite amusing, really, because at this point in time,

00:25:48.080 - 00:26:01.520

I was working at the Royal School for Deaf Children, and we all used to go to this one particular nightclub in Cliftonville, and I became good friends with two deaf women

00:26:02.080 - 00:26:12.400

who were a couple who used to attend this club, and we would talk, and I remember one evening chatting away with them and asking them about their relationship,

00:26:14.120 - 00:26:35.080

and I remember to this day saying to them, well, it wouldn't work for me, I like men. But I had no issues whatsoever. I don't think I've ever been prejudiced around any area.

00:26:36.160 - 00:26:48.160

Again, looking back, I've always had a very strong sense of equality and justice. So I certainly had no issue with it, but I just remember laughing with them and saying,

00:26:48.240 - 00:27:00.400

well, it wouldn't do for me, I like men. And I think I probably said it slightly more explicitly than that. But anyway, and then literally a couple of weeks later,

00:27:02.080 - 00:27:13.600

I'd got a friend staying with me. At this point in time, I'd started doing my first degree with the Open University, and at one of the summer schools,

00:27:13.800 - 00:27:24.840

I had met up with this woman called Sandy, and she was married with two young children and going through a really tough time with her husband. And when we were talking, I'd said to her,

00:27:25.660 - 00:27:35.500

don't stay with him because he was physically abusive. I said, please don't stay with him just because you think you have nowhere to go. If ever you need a bolthole,

00:27:35.640 - 00:27:47.500

you can always just come and stay with me. Well, one afternoon, I got this phone call saying, I'm on the train. Now, I, at that point in time,

00:27:47.780 - 00:27:57.540

had this little attic flat, one bedroom attic flat that I lived in. There was a front room, a kitchen, a bedroom and a bathroom.

00:27:59.760 - 00:28:09.600

And all of a sudden there's this woman and two young boys and their suitcases about to come and move in with me. So anyway, we moved things around.

00:28:10.440 - 00:28:17.840

She moved in with me. I ended up, because the kitchen was very large, I put a single bed in the kitchen that was mine and her and the boys had the double bed in the bedroom.

00:28:18.860 - 00:28:29.180

And we coped like that for several months until she sorted things out and found a place of her own in the things. But we were very close.

00:28:29.420 - 00:28:36.920

And I'm quite a tactile person, and so is she. So it was nothing for us to sit cuddling each other or whatever,

00:28:38.120 - 00:28:44.860

chatting away. And this one particular night, we'd been out, and we'd come back and we were sitting,

00:28:44.980 - 00:28:52.780

we were listening to music, chatting away on the sofa, and she kissed me. And I remember thinking,

00:28:53.220 - 00:29:02.880

wow, I've never felt like this when I've kissed a man. What is this all about? Well, we'd both been drinking,

00:29:03.280 - 00:29:13.300

and even then I always had to behave like a true gentleman. It was a case of, there's no way I'm taking advantage of somebody,

00:29:13.420 - 00:29:22.680

I don't know if this is what she really wants or whether this is the alcohol. So I said, look, let's just leave it at that and go to bed.

00:29:23.340 - 00:29:33.340

So in the morning she apologised to me and I said, it's not a problem at all. But I knew that this had stirred something up in me and I thought, is this just because it's her

00:29:33.340 - 00:29:40.440

and we are very close friends, I love her dearly, and it's because of our relationship that I'm feeling what I'm feeling.

00:29:41.620 - 00:29:50.660

It also happened that not only did I work at the deaf school, but I was also the secretary for the Thanet Social Club for the Deaf. And it was our monthly meeting

00:29:50.660 - 00:30:01.900

on the Saturday a couple of days later. And at the social club there were another two women who were a couple,

00:30:02.400 - 00:30:10.860

Jackie and Eugenie, and they were there on the Saturday night and I decided that I needed to go and find out for myself

00:30:10.860 - 00:30:18.100

whether I was attracted to women, whether this is what was missing because I had always known, I'd always had in the back of my mind

00:30:18.100 - 00:30:32.320

that things weren't right. I enjoyed the chase of hooking a man, but then when we started

00:30:32.320 - 00:30:39.040

to really get to know each other, I didn't want to be with them. Something just wasn't right. And I always sort of thought,

00:30:39.140 - 00:30:46.260

oh, it's because I haven't met Mr. Right. When I meet Mr. Right, I will feel differently. But I could never see myself married to a man.

00:30:47.280 - 00:30:56.940

There was always something that just didn't feel right. But anyway, on this particular evening at the Thanet Social Club for the Deaf,

00:30:58.280 - 00:31:04.540

Eugenie and Jackie were there and I just said to them, are you going to the nightclub tonight? Because I knew they used to go there

00:31:05.960 - 00:31:13.240

every day, nightclub. And they said, yeah. I said, well, can I come with you? Well, they were a bit shocked

00:31:13.240 - 00:31:23.560

and they said, oh, you're straight. And I said, am I? Anyway, they let me go with them. And it was like going home.

00:31:25.520 - 00:31:34.080

I've only had that experience a couple of times in my life and this was the first time. I was a regular at nightclubs

00:31:34.080 - 00:31:44.360

because I loved dancing. I regularly went to nightclubs and I never, ever felt comfortable or at home or as at ease

00:31:44.360 - 00:31:56.440

as I did walking into this gay nightclub. And I just realised that this is what is missing. I like women.

00:31:56.620 - 00:32:04.320

I want to be with a woman, not with a man. And I literally just in that moment just accepted, oh, this is the case.

00:32:04.320 - 00:32:09.640

It was like, oh, if I had this butter or that butter, oh, I like that one. I like the sorted one, not the unsorted one, whatever.

00:32:10.080 - 00:32:22.140

It was as mundane and simple as that. I just, okay, that's the way it is. So literally on the Monday when I went, actually,

00:32:22.280 - 00:32:31.220

I wasn't working at the deaf club at the deaf school now. I had moved on. I was running a day centre

00:32:31.220 - 00:32:39.280

for people with mental health issues and learning disabilities. But I was still the secretary for the deaf club.

00:32:40.460 - 00:32:52.620

And I went in on the Monday and just told my, you know, my assistant and the volunteers that I'd been to this gay club

00:32:53.560 - 00:33:02.160

on the Saturday night and that I was a lesbian. And they said, all right, fine. It was, again, no big deal,

00:33:02.300 - 00:33:08.680

no revelation. There was no issue with it at all. In fact, the young women who were volunteering for me

00:33:08.680 - 00:33:16.480

started to flirt with me outrageously and tease me, and that was all fine. And I remember a couple of weeks later

00:33:17.380 - 00:33:24.320

I was in the pub with, again, Jackie Nugent and the other two women who I'd had the conversation with previously saying about,

00:33:24.440 - 00:33:31.940

oh, no, no, it would not do for me. I like men. And we were all going on to the club and I said to these women,

00:33:34.320 - 00:33:41.200

and they said, you can't go to the club, you're straight. And I said, oh, no, I'm not. And they were really surprised

00:33:41.200 - 00:33:52.820

because of the conversation we'd had not that long before. So that was when I realised my sexuality and when I started then

00:33:52.820 - 00:34:03.180

going out with women. And I'd say it was really a big nothing. There was no, you know, no major upheaval.

00:34:05.180 - 00:34:12.500

I just got on with my life, but now my life contained women. There were a couple of friends who questioned me about it

00:34:12.500 - 00:34:23.500

and who didn't quite understand, but they were still my friends. They knew this was me. But there was no major upheaval.

00:34:24.320 - 00:34:34.520

And I never actually came out to my mum because I wasn't living at home, hadn't done for a while, and my life was very separate

00:34:34.520 - 00:34:43.660

from my family at that point. So it wasn't like they ever knew anything that was going on in my life. So this wasn't a case

00:34:43.660 - 00:34:54.780

of keeping anything from them. And I always lived openly. So if I went home for a family do, I would take whatever partner

00:34:54.780 - 00:35:04.100

I was living with with me. They would come to my home and, you know, over the years I'd bought houses with partners and things

00:35:04.100 - 00:35:12.760

and lived with partners and they would come and visit the home and they would see that this was our bedroom. You know, I never kept anything from them.

00:35:13.080 - 00:35:24.160

So whilst we never ever had the conversation, you know, they were very aware of my sexuality. And the amusing thing is they've never had a problem with my sexuality.

00:35:25.020 - 00:35:35.440

They still to this day do not understand my faith. They find it absolutely crazy that I was ordained and that I'm, you know, committed in that way.

00:35:36.200 - 00:35:45.900

But they don't understand my sexuality never ever being an issue. So which is, I think, is quite interesting because for a lot of people

00:35:45.900 - 00:35:56.120

it would be the other way around. In fact, the only conversation I've ever had with my mum about my sexuality

00:35:56.120 - 00:36:05.980

was really quite strange. It was on the phone. And my older brother has had several wives and been divorced three times.

00:36:06.820 - 00:36:13.400

And she was talking to me about she'd been on the phone, I think, with his first wife. No, his second wife.

00:36:15.760 - 00:36:22.860

And evidently his second wife had said something about my sexuality, about me being a lesbian. And my mother was telling me

00:36:22.860 - 00:36:32.580

about that she was talking to her and she said, and she tried to tell me what you are and I told her I already know.

00:36:32.580 - 00:36:37.520

And that was it. She never used any of the words lesbian or gay or anything like that. She just said, you know,

00:36:37.540 - 00:36:44.500

she was trying to tell me what you are and I told her I already know. And that was the sum total of any conversation about my sexuality

00:36:44.500 - 00:36:52.800

with my mum. Apart from that, it's all just been accepted. And even with my then, you know, taking on a job working

00:36:52.800 - 00:37:06.140

at the lesbian and gay Christian movement, you know, I've told them and she tells, you know, they tell their friends and neighbours

00:37:06.140 - 00:37:14.700

that I'm going to be on the television and they watch it and it's never been an issue for them. What about your siblings?

00:37:15.080 - 00:37:34.300

How do they react, your brothers? I came out to my younger brother first, Sean, the one who was very ill. That was quite easy to do

00:37:34.300 - 00:37:42.120

and it was sort of necessary because at this time, one of the things that I did with my work

00:37:42.840 - 00:37:50.540

was I ran a sort of a youth club, a youth club for people with learning disabilities who were over the age of 18.

00:37:51.020 - 00:37:57.640

So the youth club really went on until they were about 65. But I can't think of another, a social club,

00:37:57.820 - 00:38:05.160

that's a better word for it. We had this social club, it was part of the Gateway Clubs and my brother volunteered

00:38:05.160 - 00:38:13.160

and helped out with this. He would come and DJ and what have you and I actually introduced him to his wife,

00:38:13.360 - 00:38:23.920

the only person he ever went out with and it's the same for her. He was the only boyfriend she ever had. She was on a school work placement

00:38:24.780 - 00:38:33.100

with me and so I introduced them to each other and obviously because I was out in my work, it wasn't possible for me

00:38:33.100 - 00:38:39.740

to not be out obviously with my brother when he was coming along to be part of my working life.

00:38:41.500 - 00:38:48.440

Again, it wasn't an issue. It wasn't with my younger brother. In fact, my youngest brother for a long time,

00:38:48.600 - 00:38:57.480

I think he might still maybe be bisexual but he would come night clubbing with me and things. So it was never an issue with him.

00:38:58.260 - 00:39:08.580

I've never really had a conversation with my older brother. He was very aware of my sexuality. He's never said anything

00:39:08.580 - 00:39:18.920

but I don't think he's particularly comfortable with it but we've never had a conversation. So I don't really know.

00:39:19.960 - 00:39:26.280

What about the wider community where you grew up from and that particular time how did you reach them out?

00:39:26.400 - 00:39:33.760

How did they react? Well, I had no connections with any of the community when I was living at home

00:39:33.760 - 00:39:44.020

because we didn't really have a community there. So there wasn't anybody there to tell. The only community I had

00:39:44.020 - 00:39:51.960

were my friends and colleagues where I worked and as I say, my friends were all very accepting.

00:39:52.500 - 00:40:00.580

Some questioned whether this was a phase I was going through or whatever. My best friend who had

00:40:00.580 - 00:40:07.000

at that point in time moved back down to Wales. She was perfectly accepting. She came up to say for weekend

00:40:07.000 - 00:40:13.580

and went clubbing with me and I'd go down to Wales and we'd go to the gay clubs together. Even when she was eight months pregnant

00:40:13.580 - 00:40:21.620

we were in gay night clubs together. So I was very blessed, very blessed that the people

00:40:21.620 - 00:40:31.380

who I cared about really had no problems were very, very accepting and so I would say

00:40:31.380 - 00:40:43.200

very, very blessed by that. At this point in time I wasn't regularly attending a church so I didn't have the issues

00:40:43.200 - 00:40:56.480

with regards to my faith community because when I first left the college having done my A levels I wasn't able to get into

00:40:56.480 - 00:41:02.360

the university I wanted to go to and at that age I didn't feel the I was offered a place

00:41:02.360 - 00:41:08.940

at a university in London but it meant finding accommodation in London and at the age of 18

00:41:08.940 - 00:41:18.140

I was too nervous and too shy. I couldn't cope with living in London. Just even travelling to London on my own

00:41:18.140 - 00:41:25.660

would have been such a scary prospect. So I turned that place down and the one which would have offered

00:41:25.660 - 00:41:32.820

student accommodation I didn't get into. So I went out to work and I went away to work

00:41:32.820 - 00:41:39.220

I went to work in a boarding school and this meant that obviously I then couldn't attend the church that I had been attending

00:41:41.100 - 00:41:48.880

and then when I was working in the deaf school I had to shift work and often working on a Sunday

00:41:48.880 - 00:41:55.900

and so I used to just go to whatever local church I had a service going at a time when I could attend

00:41:55.900 - 00:42:06.000

so I didn't have a faith community that I was involved with at that point in time and then after I came out

00:42:06.920 - 00:42:13.700

I was aware that this would not be acceptable in a lot of faith communities

00:42:13.700 - 00:42:21.700

and so I then went through the years which I talk about where I church hopped where I never stayed in a church

00:42:21.700 - 00:42:32.460

long enough for the awkward questions to get asked. Could you tell me about your journey of integrating

00:42:32.460 - 00:42:40.360

your faith with your identity as LGBTQ? Again, this was never an issue for me

00:42:40.360 - 00:42:46.460

I think because I have always known God I just do not remember a time in my life

00:42:46.460 - 00:42:52.300

where I was not in relationship with God I don't know where it came from

00:42:52.300 - 00:42:59.680

but I just know that I have no memory of ever being separated from God

00:42:59.680 - 00:43:05.160

of not having that relationship so by the time at the age of 23

00:43:12.340 - 00:43:17.020

I was a year and I had been through all sorts of other trials and

00:43:17.020 - 00:43:22.000

tribulations before then and God had always been there throughout all of that

00:43:23.020 - 00:43:29.920

but I didn't really struggle with this I just knew that God loves me

00:43:31.040 - 00:43:43.100

and that God wants me to be all that God made me to be I clearly was much

00:43:43.100 - 00:43:49.260

happier as a lesbian than as a straight person I clearly had much better relationships

00:43:49.260 - 00:43:56.600

as a lesbian than as a straight woman so this clearly was how God intended me

00:43:56.600 - 00:44:04.300

to be therefore this was not an issue for God that this was how

00:44:04.300 - 00:44:15.000

God wanted me to be how God had made me more of who God had called me to be

00:44:15.000 - 00:44:22.580

by being a lesbian and being in relationships with women so there wasn't

00:44:22.580 - 00:44:27.340

that struggle for me the only struggle was that I knew that not everybody had

00:44:27.860 - 00:44:34.480

the same understanding as I did and I didn't want to upset other people

00:44:34.480 - 00:44:39.000

you know when I was attending a church if I knew that they wouldn't accept it

00:44:39.000 - 00:44:43.240

and I had got to know some of these people I didn't want to put them in the position

00:44:43.240 - 00:44:47.340

you know put the minister in the position of having to say to me oh you know

00:44:47.340 - 00:44:50.320

I would like you to join the church and then I'd say well actually I'm a lesbian

00:44:50.320 - 00:44:53.880

and they'd say oh no now you can't join the church I didn't want to put

00:44:53.880 - 00:44:59.660

them in that position which is why I would move on when things started

00:44:59.660 - 00:45:07.880

to get to that point so it was to protect other people

00:45:07.880 - 00:45:11.860

and putting them in difficult positions which was painful for me for the fact

00:45:11.860 - 00:45:16.620

that I could never then ever really be part of a faith community

00:45:16.620 - 00:45:23.500

I couldn't have that that sense of belonging or that closeness because it would then

00:45:23.500 - 00:45:30.460

cause those difficult questions to be asked and either I mean maybe there was

00:45:30.460 - 00:45:33.500

some self protection in that you know obviously nobody wants to be rejected

00:45:34.300 - 00:45:38.420

and you know I didn't want to be rejected or cause somebody who I loved

00:45:38.420 - 00:45:43.920

to have to reject me and so it was quite a difficult time where I didn't have

00:45:43.920 - 00:45:48.960

that support I didn't have that community around me I was totally dependent

00:45:48.960 - 00:45:56.640

on the few friends that I felt close to in order to provide that What was your

00:45:56.640 - 00:46:00.520

developing understanding of the scripture around the time that you came out?

00:46:03.220 - 00:46:08.040

I don't know that I paid much attention to scripture at that point in time

00:46:08.040 - 00:46:14.280

I think this was something that came about much later I think you know

00:46:14.280 - 00:46:21.020

later on I started to realise just you know how important

00:46:21.020 - 00:46:28.040

my faith was and that it wasn't something that I could

00:46:28.040 - 00:46:41.740

just keep to myself and do personally Again I think I've always known

00:46:41.740 - 00:46:48.500

that God had a call on my life Around the age of 16, 17 I toyed with the

00:46:49.040 - 00:46:56.320

thought of going into a convent because I felt God was calling me

00:46:56.320 - 00:47:03.040

to ministry in some way but life then took other paths

00:47:06.040 - 00:47:11.540

So it was sometime after I had come out that I thought

00:47:11.540 - 00:47:19.060

I can't keep my faith to myself it needs to it needs to move on

00:47:19.060 - 00:47:25.800

it needs to be bigger and part of that I guess was one person

00:47:25.800 - 00:47:33.120

that I started seeing was from a Catholic background She was actually

00:47:33.120 - 00:47:37.820

going out with somebody who worked for me had come for

00:47:37.820 - 00:47:43.000

dinner with us and during the dinner conversation

00:47:44.380 - 00:47:48.380

something was said about God about religion and

00:47:48.380 - 00:47:52.280

I naturally defended God not that God needs defending

00:47:52.280 - 00:47:57.880

but I defended faith and religion because whilst I wasn't evangelical

00:47:57.880 - 00:48:02.220

in my faith I certainly would never sit back and allow it

00:48:02.220 - 00:48:07.680

to be denigrated and this particular person was

00:48:08.760 - 00:48:15.140

really surprised that here was a lesbian standing up

00:48:15.140 - 00:48:18.720

and speaking out for faith for God for religion

00:48:19.500 - 00:48:23.680

and so we got to know each other better and started going

00:48:23.680 - 00:48:25.820

along to church together sometimes she'd come to the Baptist church

00:48:25.820 - 00:48:27.880

with me sometimes I'd go to the Catholic church with her

00:48:27.880 - 00:48:34.180

and she had children who attended the churches as well and it was during

00:48:34.180 - 00:48:39.000

that time that I really got closer

00:48:39.000 - 00:48:43.600

again to God when I really started to realise

00:48:43.600 - 00:48:48.060

that I couldn't do my faith on my own I needed a faith

00:48:48.060 - 00:48:52.960

community I needed to be able to be more open

00:48:52.960 - 00:48:58.640

about my faith and I needed to understand that

00:48:58.640 - 00:49:04.340

greater and so it was at this time that I started

00:49:04.340 - 00:49:09.280

to really feel God calling me back again in a deep way

00:49:12.040 - 00:49:17.040

and a few years after that we were very fortunate that the

00:49:17.560 - 00:49:22.580

Baptist church understood that we were a couple

00:49:22.580 - 00:49:29.240

and with the children and accepted us as part of the community but again we always

00:49:29.240 - 00:49:34.420

circled around how you know how much we could

00:49:34.420 - 00:49:39.060

actually be part of that community so as I say we were accepted

00:49:39.060 - 00:49:42.680

and loved but there was always something there

00:49:43.380 - 00:49:47.160

that meant that we were never fully embraced

00:49:48.180 - 00:49:52.820

but a few years later I moved back I moved into

00:49:52.820 - 00:49:58.860

London and it was at this point that I heard

00:49:58.860 - 00:50:03.260

about the Metropolitan Community Church because I still

00:50:03.260 - 00:50:06.040

you know I was still doing my church hopping I was still feeling

00:50:06.040 - 00:50:11.760

that I couldn't ever be anywhere properly and I wanted that

00:50:12.300 - 00:50:16.780

and so I I found out about the Metropolitan

00:50:16.780 - 00:50:19.960

Community Church and found that there was one in South London

00:50:19.960 - 00:50:23.980

and I was living in South London and so I went along one evening

00:50:23.980 - 00:50:28.420

and found this church and this was the second time that I had that

00:50:28.420 - 00:50:33.320

feeling of coming home I walked through the doors and they met in

00:50:33.320 - 00:50:39.000

this hall community centre hall

00:50:39.560 - 00:50:43.840

it wasn't even a proper church but I walked in and

00:50:43.840 - 00:50:48.840

I just knew I was home because for the first time

00:50:48.840 - 00:50:54.900

all of me was present in all the churches I'd gone to

00:50:54.900 - 00:50:58.460

it was like I was leaving my sexuality on the doorstep

00:50:58.460 - 00:51:04.340

and in so many situations where gay clubs

00:51:04.340 - 00:51:08.240

pubs whatever often my faith was left

00:51:08.240 - 00:51:12.300

on the doorstep neither of them could ever completely be that

00:51:13.340 - 00:51:17.380

but they were never fully integrated but I walked

00:51:17.380 - 00:51:20.020

into the Metropolitan Community Church of South London

00:51:20.020 - 00:51:25.120

which was in Brixton in Ephra Road and

00:51:25.120 - 00:51:29.440

walked into this church hall all very low key not church hall

00:51:29.440 - 00:51:35.160

community hall and I was at home because I was there

00:51:35.160 - 00:51:41.120

fully as a lesbian and fully as a child of God and nothing was

00:51:41.120 - 00:51:47.980

left on the doorstep within six months I had become a member I was then

00:51:47.980 - 00:51:52.460

on the board because I could give all of me again as I had done

00:51:53.180 - 00:51:56.740

when I was at the Baptist Church working in the you know

00:51:56.740 - 00:52:01.660

for the Sunday school and the summer clubs

00:52:01.660 - 00:52:05.660

and everything you know I could give all of me again

00:52:05.660 - 00:52:10.200

and that's when I started to also

00:52:10.200 - 00:52:15.740

know that God was calling me back into ministry that that call

00:52:15.740 - 00:52:19.300

had never gone away I'd been given the time and the space to

00:52:20.040 - 00:52:24.100

learn about myself and who I was and what God really wanted for me

00:52:24.760 - 00:52:29.280

and now God was saying you know okay now we need to take it

00:52:29.280 - 00:52:36.280

to the next level and one day I was in the shower

00:52:37.000 - 00:52:41.600

minding my own business at this point in time I had finished my degree

00:52:41.600 - 00:52:45.720

in psychology and was working in the prison

00:52:45.720 - 00:52:54.320

as a forensic psychologist thoroughly enjoying my work really happy to push my career forward

00:52:54.320 - 00:52:58.920

as a psychologist and then I'm standing in the shower and

00:52:58.920 - 00:53:07.020

as clearly as us having a conversation now I heard God say to me it's time

00:53:08.160 - 00:53:14.800

you know it's time for you to be ordained and do my work properly I got out of the shower

00:53:14.800 - 00:53:19.800

and I went to my partner and I said to her how do you fancy being a vicar's wife

00:53:20.800 - 00:53:26.660

and her response was do I get to make the cucumber sandwiches with that

00:53:26.660 - 00:53:33.720

I applied to go back to uni and do a degree in theology and spoke to my minister

00:53:33.720 - 00:53:41.300

and started the process towards being ordained which I then was so I

00:53:41.300 - 00:53:47.740

had to I left the prison service left my work as a psychologist studied

00:53:47.740 - 00:53:55.580

completed my training for ordination I then because within the Metropolitan Community Church

00:53:55.580 - 00:54:01.540

there's very few of our churches can actually afford a full time pastor so

00:54:01.540 - 00:54:07.980

and in fact a lot of us work completely pro bono as pastors within the church

00:54:09.360 - 00:54:15.440

so throughout the end of my training and when I was first

00:54:15.440 - 00:54:21.600

the assistant pastor at the Metropolitan Community Church in North London I was also working

00:54:22.540 - 00:54:27.460

as a manager of a charity working with children with disabilities

00:54:28.260 - 00:54:33.880

and which was great but I really wanted

00:54:33.880 - 00:54:38.540

to do something that was full time ministry that

00:54:39.320 - 00:54:45.500

really where I could be a pastor where I you know

00:54:45.500 - 00:54:49.700

be a minister the whole time not just part time even though

00:54:49.700 - 00:54:54.780

the work I was doing was very pastoral in lots of ways working with families

00:54:54.780 - 00:54:59.540

with children with disabilities it wasn't I knew that wasn't where

00:54:59.540 - 00:55:06.420

I was supposed to continue and so I started looking for where God wanted me to be

00:55:06.420 - 00:55:12.280

what other work I was supposed to be doing I started looking at possible chaplaincy posts

00:55:12.280 - 00:55:20.040

and this sort of thing and whilst I was doing that I had I had also joined

00:55:20.040 - 00:55:25.720

the lesbian and gay Christian movement become a member of that I'd done that actually when I was

00:55:25.720 - 00:55:31.880

still at uni doing my degree in theology and through the post

00:55:31.880 - 00:55:37.740

with the latest info and everything was an advert that they were looking for

00:55:37.740 - 00:55:44.720

an assistant chief executive which was a nine month post with a view to that person

00:55:44.720 - 00:55:48.800

then taking over as chief executive on the retirement of Richard Kirker

00:55:49.720 - 00:55:56.400

the current chief at the time and everything in this job description

00:55:56.400 - 00:56:02.500

I just tick, tick, tick, tick, tick, tick and I thought well

00:56:02.500 - 00:56:06.460

okay I spoke to my partner and she said you know

00:56:06.460 - 00:56:12.440

why don't you apply for it so I did not wanting it I applied for it

00:56:12.440 - 00:56:15.760

because somehow or other I don't know it just seemed like

00:56:15.760 - 00:56:19.680

the right thing to do and I was looking and I do believe in laying out

00:56:19.680 - 00:56:24.900

the sheet and see what God lands on it you know

00:56:26.320 - 00:56:33.160

and so I sent this off and I remember so clearly I had an interview

00:56:33.160 - 00:56:40.080

for a chaplaincy post on the Wednesday I had an interview for the LGCM post

00:56:40.080 - 00:56:45.200

on the Thursday both jobs said they would let me know on the Friday

00:56:47.240 - 00:56:52.220

and I thought okay I want the chaplaincy post

00:56:52.220 - 00:56:57.060

what a nice job you go in you say a few prayers with people

00:56:57.060 - 00:57:01.960

you're nice to people and you come home and feel good about yourself this is the sort of job

00:57:01.960 - 00:57:05.500

I want how wonderful 9 to 5 great

00:57:07.560 - 00:57:10.880

but I said to God okay God

00:57:11.620 - 00:57:15.980

whatever job you want me to do I will do so

00:57:16.460 - 00:57:20.220

make sure it's either the only one that offers me the post

00:57:21.000 - 00:57:23.880

or it's the first one that offers me the post I will take

00:57:24.400 - 00:57:27.700

whatever job offers me a post first and obviously if neither of them

00:57:27.700 - 00:57:33.700

are what you want me to do then neither will offer me a job so I get a phone call

00:57:34.440 - 00:57:40.100

and the phone call is from LGCM and they offer me the post so I accept

00:57:41.060 - 00:57:45.800

I had barely put the phone down when it rang again and the chaplaincy

00:57:45.800 - 00:57:50.260

child phoned to offer me the post I thought I can't do it

00:57:50.260 - 00:57:56.760

I just accepted the other one and so that's then

00:57:56.760 - 00:58:01.020

how I I got to start working for LGCM

00:58:01.020 - 00:58:09.440

as the assistant chief exec and obviously leading up to this I'd started

00:58:09.440 - 00:58:12.500

to have to really consider obviously in doing my training

00:58:12.500 - 00:58:17.920

to be ordained within the Metropolitan Community Church I had to know about these texts

00:58:19.360 - 00:58:22.720

because I've just realised that it was a very long-winded answer to your question

00:58:22.720 - 00:58:26.680

which was how did I reconcile the Bible verses with being

00:58:27.460 - 00:58:30.760

LGBTQI and Christian and

00:58:30.760 - 00:58:33.880

it really was at that time when I started to

00:58:34.520 - 00:58:38.580

do my training for ordination that I had to really understand

00:58:38.580 - 00:58:43.480

what this was all about because if I was going to serve God

00:58:43.480 - 00:58:47.620

I had to know that I was serving God in the right way

00:58:48.280 - 00:58:52.500

so I had to look at these texts and think about them and part of

00:58:52.500 - 00:58:55.860

my study because I have combined obviously

00:58:55.860 - 00:59:01.660

my psychology and my theology and so part of part of my

00:59:01.660 - 00:59:05.500

studying was I did some research into denominational

00:59:05.500 - 00:59:09.120

prejudice and discrimination and

00:59:09.120 - 00:59:11.740

so again I was looking very much into

00:59:13.500 - 00:59:19.300

the discrimination towards homosexuality as well as also discrimination

00:59:19.300 - 00:59:24.320

on gender grounds on race grounds age grounds

00:59:24.320 - 00:59:27.580

etc and so it was during this time that

00:59:27.580 - 00:59:32.320

I really got into the text and realised that

00:59:32.320 - 00:59:36.260

you know what there is not one single text

00:59:36.260 - 00:59:40.040

in the Bible that says that God

00:59:40.040 - 00:59:44.560

has an issue with two people of the same gender in a mutual

00:59:44.560 - 00:59:48.560

faithful loving relationship there are

00:59:48.560 - 00:59:51.840

a few texts that talk about same sex sexual activity

00:59:51.840 - 00:59:56.180

that is done on the grounds of lust and the use

00:59:56.180 - 00:59:59.980

and abuse of other people and heterosexual people

00:59:59.980 - 01:00:03.540

having sex with people of the same gender

01:00:03.540 - 01:00:07.040

just because they can't control themselves but there is

01:00:07.040 - 01:00:10.520

nothing nothing at all that says

01:00:10.520 - 01:00:16.820

that it is wrong to love have you been

01:00:16.820 - 01:00:20.160

questioned a lot about your sexuality and your

01:00:20.160 - 01:00:25.060

faith oh absolutely it goes with the

01:00:25.060 - 01:00:30.680

job and it is very much

01:00:30.680 - 01:00:32.720

part of the territory it goes

01:00:32.720 - 01:00:36.000

with both jobs both as chief executive

01:00:36.000 - 01:00:37.340

of the lesbian and gay Christian movement

01:00:37.340 - 01:00:40.200

and as a pastor within the metropolitan

01:00:40.200 - 01:00:43.640

community church being questioned

01:00:43.640 - 01:00:45.900

about faith and sexuality is a

01:00:45.900 - 01:00:49.560

daily occurrence almost and I

01:00:49.560 - 01:00:52.500

think it is important because

01:00:52.500 - 01:00:56.140

there are LGBTQI Christians out there

01:00:56.140 - 01:00:59.360

who do struggle with what they have

01:00:59.360 - 01:01:03.320

been told about the text in the Bible

01:01:04.160 - 01:01:07.440

who really struggle therefore to reconcile their

01:01:07.440 - 01:01:09.520

faith and sexuality they feel they have to

01:01:09.520 - 01:01:11.180

choose they have to give up God

01:01:11.180 - 01:01:16.200

or who they are in order to be

01:01:16.200 - 01:01:18.840

faithful to one or the other and of

01:01:18.840 - 01:01:22.280

course the reality is not that but it is

01:01:22.280 - 01:01:24.200

very difficult for people also obviously I

01:01:24.200 - 01:01:27.720

get questioned by people who believe that homosexuality

01:01:27.720 - 01:01:30.680

is completely wrong and believe that I am leading

01:01:30.680 - 01:01:34.660

people astray and I get questioned by people

01:01:34.660 - 01:01:38.880

who are LGBTQI who don't understand

01:01:38.880 - 01:01:42.340

why anybody would want to be part of a faith

01:01:42.340 - 01:01:45.680

and have a belief in a God who they are told

01:01:45.680 - 01:01:49.420

believes that they are an abomination and so it

01:01:49.420 - 01:01:53.400

works on both sides of the equation in being able

01:01:53.400 - 01:01:57.780

to point out to those people who are gay,

01:01:57.940 - 01:01:59.400

lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer,

01:01:59.500 - 01:02:02.280

whatever, that actually God does still love

01:02:02.280 - 01:02:04.120

them and that they are acceptable and that

01:02:04.120 - 01:02:06.560

there isn't an issue and also pointing out

01:02:06.560 - 01:02:10.260

to people of faith that being LGBTQI

01:02:10.260 - 01:02:12.840

is not an abomination, that God really does

01:02:12.840 - 01:02:17.220

love us. It's the same conversation but just from

01:02:17.220 - 01:02:20.700

opposite sides of the coin. How do you feel when

01:02:20.700 - 01:02:23.960

they do question you about your faith and

01:02:23.960 - 01:02:31.560

sexuality? It depends on the approach of

01:02:31.560 - 01:02:34.980

the individual. Some people are genuinely wanting to

01:02:34.980 - 01:02:38.460

inquire, to learn. They may be struggling

01:02:39.340 - 01:02:42.820

with the concept because of what they've been

01:02:42.820 - 01:02:46.040

told but then they may know some gay people and

01:02:46.040 - 01:02:48.980

think well hang on, the way these people are

01:02:48.980 - 01:02:50.540

doesn't match up with what my church has been

01:02:50.540 - 01:02:53.080

telling me about them. Some people are just

01:02:53.080 - 01:02:56.280

genuinely wanting to inquire and learn and

01:02:56.920 - 01:03:00.240

they're really productive conversations. Some people

01:03:00.240 - 01:03:05.220

are very aggressive and do not want to learn,

01:03:05.300 - 01:03:08.280

do not want to listen, do not want to even

01:03:08.280 - 01:03:13.140

start to think about accommodating any alternative

01:03:13.140 - 01:03:15.680

point of view. They are right,

01:03:16.020 - 01:03:20.120

they know the truth and everybody else is wrong

01:03:20.120 - 01:03:25.360

and needs to change their ways. And within

01:03:25.360 - 01:03:29.060

the LGBTQI community, there are those who

01:03:29.060 - 01:03:34.100

have been so hurt by religion that again are very

01:03:34.100 - 01:03:38.660

aggressive and don't want a conversation. And those

01:03:38.660 - 01:03:42.140

who are just open to it and those who genuinely

01:03:42.140 - 01:03:45.760

are searching and want to find a way that they

01:03:45.760 - 01:03:48.520

can come back to their spirituality,

01:03:49.040 - 01:03:51.020

to their relationship with God. So,

01:03:51.370 - 01:03:55.970

it really does depend on how the other

01:03:55.970 - 01:03:58.950

person is approaching it as to how I feel about

01:03:58.950 - 01:04:03.870

it. Sometimes I feel incredibly honored that

01:04:03.870 - 01:04:08.170

God is choosing me to be a catalyst to

01:04:08.170 - 01:04:10.790

help people along that journey from either side

01:04:10.790 - 01:04:14.110

of the spectrum. You know, very honored

01:04:14.110 - 01:04:18.990

and very humbled that I can be used in that

01:04:18.990 - 01:04:25.750

way. Sometimes I feel abused, you know,

01:04:25.790 - 01:04:29.170

when people are being very aggressive, it can feel

01:04:29.170 - 01:04:33.670

very abusing. But there is still underneath

01:04:33.670 - 01:04:37.350

that, still that sense of honor and humility

01:04:37.350 - 01:04:43.130

in the fact that whilst these people are sharing

01:04:43.130 - 01:04:47.230

their anger at me, then they're not doing it

01:04:47.230 - 01:04:49.790

to somebody else who perhaps isn't so capable

01:04:49.790 - 01:04:52.970

of taking it. And who knows, maybe

01:04:52.970 - 01:04:57.650

by them sharing that anger at me, they

01:04:58.250 - 01:05:02.470

may have an inbreak themselves into what they are

01:05:02.470 - 01:05:05.310

doing. And I do believe that the angriest

01:05:05.310 - 01:05:08.170

people are those who are struggling the hardest.

01:05:09.810 - 01:05:12.890

And this is why their anger comes across, you

01:05:12.890 - 01:05:14.650

know, why they come across in that way.

01:05:15.470 - 01:05:20.030

And so it is those people who need somebody to

01:05:20.030 - 01:05:24.070

be available to hear them and to offer them

01:05:24.070 - 01:05:27.350

grace and opportunities to engage with it.

01:05:28.550 - 01:05:30.850

Perhaps even more so than those who are struggling

01:05:30.850 - 01:05:33.070

to find an answer. Because these are the people

01:05:33.070 - 01:05:34.770

who don't even know that they're struggling.

01:05:35.890 - 01:05:39.630

They are hanging on so tightly to their

01:05:39.630 - 01:05:42.070

belief. And again, both sides of the coin,

01:05:42.210 - 01:05:45.270

whether it's an LGBTQI person who's hanging on

01:05:45.270 - 01:05:48.070

that all religion is bad and abusive and

01:05:48.070 - 01:05:49.850

terrible and there's no way you should be

01:05:49.850 - 01:05:52.750

Christian, or whether it's a Christian who's

01:05:52.750 - 01:05:54.770

saying all homosexuality is bad, there's no

01:05:54.770 - 01:05:57.170

way you can be homosexual, whichever

01:05:57.170 - 01:06:00.610

side. I think they are the people who

01:06:00.610 - 01:06:02.990

need love and grace more than anyone.

01:06:04.410 - 01:06:08.350

Could you tell me about how you became involved in representing

01:06:08.350 - 01:06:13.510

and campaigning for LGBTQ issues? Yeah,

01:06:13.750 - 01:06:16.250

well, I've covered that partly, I guess, in

01:06:16.250 - 01:06:19.130

talking about how I came to work for LGCM.

01:06:20.050 - 01:06:23.510

But I often do reflect on this because

01:06:24.510 - 01:06:29.550

I would never have said that I was a

01:06:30.070 - 01:06:34.170

campaigner before I became involved with LGCM.

01:06:35.410 - 01:06:38.190

Having said that though, when I look back, I

01:06:38.190 - 01:06:41.770

know I've always had a strong sense of

01:06:41.770 - 01:06:45.890

justice and not being afraid to stand up for

01:06:45.890 - 01:06:50.070

what I believe. And would never sit

01:06:50.910 - 01:06:54.130

back and watch somebody else be discriminated

01:06:54.130 - 01:06:58.070

against or abused. Right back to the

01:06:59.290 - 01:07:02.750

question, when I was even 13, I don't think

01:07:02.750 - 01:07:08.270

I was even a teenager, I remember a conversation

01:07:08.270 - 01:07:14.510

at dinner. My family, we always came together

01:07:14.510 - 01:07:18.170

for Sunday lunch. No matter what, we

01:07:18.170 - 01:07:20.470

all sat around the dinner table and had

01:07:20.470 - 01:07:22.390

Sunday lunch together. And yes, I must have

01:07:22.390 - 01:07:25.250

been only 11 or 12 because my father was at the table

01:07:25.250 - 01:07:27.830

as well. And so, you know, we were sitting

01:07:27.830 - 01:07:30.790

at Sunday lunch as normal. Now, my

01:07:30.790 - 01:07:33.730

grandmother was a strange commodity. I mean,

01:07:33.770 - 01:07:36.730

she was such a wonderful woman in so many ways

01:07:36.730 - 01:07:41.070

and very strong woman. You know, been through

01:07:41.070 - 01:07:43.550

some horrendous things and yet still survived.

01:07:44.090 - 01:07:47.790

And she had fostered children, I say,

01:07:47.890 - 01:07:52.230

when we lived in London. And the

01:07:52.230 - 01:07:55.110

children she fostered when we were in London were

01:07:55.110 - 01:07:58.850

all children who had been, who had

01:07:58.850 - 01:08:01.290

come over, I think, from Jamaica because around

01:08:01.290 - 01:08:05.710

that time, there was a lot of people were being

01:08:05.710 - 01:08:08.790

brought in from Jamaica to fill up the jobs

01:08:09.610 - 01:08:12.790

following on from the Second World War where

01:08:12.790 - 01:08:14.430

we didn't have enough people to to do all

01:08:14.430 - 01:08:19.170

the work that needed to be done. And so,

01:08:19.870 - 01:08:22.550

you know, she was fostering Jamaican children,

01:08:23.150 - 01:08:26.810

African children, no problem whatsoever. And yet my

01:08:26.810 - 01:08:31.470

grandmother was incredibly racist. Incredibly racist. And I don't know

01:08:31.470 - 01:08:34.130

when the point changed. I don't know at what age a

01:08:34.130 - 01:08:38.630

child had to get to before they suddenly became one of

01:08:38.630 - 01:08:42.470

these people that my grandmother didn't accept because she

01:08:42.470 - 01:08:45.590

absolutely accepted all children, no matter what

01:08:45.590 - 01:08:49.410

the color of their skin. So it was a very, very strange

01:08:49.410 - 01:08:52.110

thing with my grandmother. But I know one of the reasons

01:08:52.110 - 01:08:55.270

that she moved from Middlesex was because of the number

01:08:55.270 - 01:08:58.050

of Indian families that were moving into the area.

01:08:58.730 - 01:09:01.710

And she found that, you know, difficult to

01:09:01.710 - 01:09:05.050

handle. So, you know, very different

01:09:05.050 - 01:09:07.790

generation. But I never quite understood this.

01:09:08.190 - 01:09:11.990

But I do remember that, say, we're at Sunday dinner and my

01:09:11.990 - 01:09:15.470

grandmother started on at me and I remember as if she's standing

01:09:15.470 - 01:09:18.330

here now saying this to me. And she says, and don't you

01:09:18.330 - 01:09:20.590

ever think that you're going to bring a black man home here?

01:09:23.450 - 01:09:29.010

And I mean, as I say, I was not a particularly

01:09:29.010 - 01:09:33.470

confident young person. But I remember that I stood

01:09:33.470 - 01:09:37.870

up at this table and I said very clearly,

01:09:38.110 - 01:09:41.030

if I choose to go out with or marry a

01:09:41.030 - 01:09:45.790

black man, then I will. And there is absolutely nothing

01:09:45.790 - 01:09:49.190

you can do about it. And with that, I picked up my

01:09:49.190 - 01:09:52.410

dinner plate and I walked out the room as fast as I could because I knew

01:09:52.410 - 01:09:54.530

that there was likely to be a whooping coming my way.

01:09:55.810 - 01:10:00.690

And I was out of there. But even then, even with my

01:10:00.690 - 01:10:05.410

family, I could not sit back and accept a

01:10:05.410 - 01:10:09.050

racist comment like that. And the ridiculous thing

01:10:09.050 - 01:10:12.370

is that actually later on in my late teens, I did have a

01:10:12.370 - 01:10:17.490

number of boyfriends who were black and took them home

01:10:17.490 - 01:10:20.810

and my family were absolutely fine with them. As I say,

01:10:20.930 - 01:10:23.790

it was a very strange thing that was going on.

01:10:25.350 - 01:10:28.290

And then, of course, I was very heavily involved

01:10:28.290 - 01:10:33.450

in campaigning for, or fighting for rights for

01:10:33.450 - 01:10:37.550

families with disabled kids and things around that

01:10:37.550 - 01:10:42.110

area. And I did work for people who

01:10:42.110 - 01:10:50.270

were deaf. So, I'd always stood up

01:10:50.270 - 01:10:54.910

for what I believed was right. And as I

01:10:54.910 - 01:10:58.530

said earlier, I defended God, not that God

01:10:58.530 - 01:11:03.430

needs defending in conversation. I couldn't sit back

01:11:03.430 - 01:11:07.930

and just let that sort of thing pass. So, there's

01:11:07.930 - 01:11:11.750

always been that element in me that felt the need

01:11:11.750 - 01:11:15.130

to stand up for justice. But I would never have said

01:11:15.130 - 01:11:17.770

that, you know, I'm somebody who will be on the front line

01:11:17.770 - 01:11:23.590

of a picket or campaigning around anything. And so,

01:11:23.650 - 01:11:27.550

when I suddenly found myself in this job at LGCM,

01:11:29.650 - 01:11:32.890

I had to really, you know, really look at my

01:11:32.890 - 01:11:36.370

skills and think, gosh, you know, God, what are you

01:11:36.370 - 01:11:38.170

asking of me? What have you called me to do here?

01:11:39.630 - 01:11:42.950

But it wasn't that difficult because there is that

01:11:42.950 - 01:11:46.890

passion for justice deep within. As soon as I

01:11:46.890 - 01:11:49.530

saw anything that was happening, I couldn't help

01:11:49.530 - 01:11:53.290

but speak out about it. You know, it has to

01:11:53.290 - 01:11:57.110

be done. I didn't wake up one morning and

01:11:57.110 - 01:11:59.650

think, oh, I'm going to be a professional lesbian and a

01:11:59.650 - 01:12:02.170

professional Christian and I'm going to go out there and campaign.

01:12:02.810 - 01:12:06.230

That isn't how it happened. It was just, you know, this

01:12:06.230 - 01:12:10.210

was clearly where God wants me to be.

01:12:11.390 - 01:12:15.290

And I just trust that God will always give

01:12:15.290 - 01:12:19.370

me the words to say, will always give me the

01:12:19.370 - 01:12:23.190

courage to stand up for what I believe in and for

01:12:23.190 - 01:12:26.970

what I feel God is calling me to do. Because on

01:12:26.970 - 01:12:31.250

my own, I couldn't do it. I was

01:12:31.250 - 01:12:33.950

speaking recently at a conference called Taking a Chance on

01:12:33.950 - 01:12:38.230

God where I was very honest and said, you

01:12:38.230 - 01:12:42.170

know, I'm not a public person. I'm actually

01:12:42.170 - 01:12:48.250

quite a shy retiring wallflower. And most

01:12:48.250 - 01:12:51.230

people would never actually believe that of me because

01:12:51.230 - 01:12:54.230

all they ever see is this public persona, this person

01:12:54.230 - 01:12:58.330

who's up there preaching, up there talking, on the television,

01:12:58.550 - 01:13:02.990

on the radio, doing all of these things. But I wanted

01:13:02.990 - 01:13:06.370

the chaplaincy job. I wanted to sit in the

01:13:06.370 - 01:13:09.910

background quietly where nobody knew me and work with people

01:13:09.910 - 01:13:14.310

on a one-to-one basis. God saw something else.

01:13:15.850 - 01:13:19.610

And so it's up to God to make sure that I

01:13:19.610 - 01:13:22.370

can do the things that God wants me to do because

01:13:22.370 - 01:13:24.910

I can't do them off my own bat. I don't

01:13:24.910 - 01:13:27.610

have that confidence. I don't have that

01:13:28.650 - 01:13:33.850

elocution. Yes, I have the passion deep

01:13:33.850 - 01:13:38.270

in my soul. And that's what God then uses to

01:13:38.270 - 01:13:41.070

help me to do the things that need to be

01:13:41.070 - 01:13:44.890

done. But sometimes it's very tiring.

01:13:46.850 - 01:13:50.310

How has your work impacted on you and

01:13:50.310 - 01:14:02.650

others? It's very interesting. I don't

01:14:02.650 - 01:14:05.210

know that I've ever actually thought about how it

01:14:05.210 - 01:14:08.490

impacts. Because you get so caught up with it,

01:14:08.830 - 01:14:11.550

just doing what needs to be done, going from,

01:14:11.630 - 01:14:13.570

you know, this has got to be done and that's got to

01:14:13.570 - 01:14:15.690

be done and getting on with it and then collapsing in a

01:14:15.690 - 01:14:17.870

heap at the end of the day. How has it

01:14:17.870 - 01:14:20.130

impacted? Well, I mean, clearly it's impacted on my

01:14:20.130 - 01:14:25.510

partner. Because she has become part of some

01:14:25.510 - 01:14:27.670

of the campaigning, you know, campaigning around

01:14:27.670 - 01:14:31.190

equal marriage. You know, she's been on television with

01:14:31.190 - 01:14:35.530

me and attended conferences and stuff.

01:14:35.670 - 01:14:39.490

So this has clearly had an impact on her. This certainly

01:14:39.490 - 01:14:42.630

wasn't what she ever thought she would be involved in.

01:14:43.470 - 01:14:47.530

And it does impact on my relationships in that this work

01:14:47.530 - 01:14:49.830

is very time consuming. You know, it's certainly

01:14:49.830 - 01:14:53.350

not nine till five. It's not even, I can't even

01:14:53.350 - 01:14:56.070

say, well, I'll be working 37 hours a week or

01:14:56.070 - 01:15:00.010

whatever. It's 24-7. You know, a news story

01:15:00.010 - 01:15:02.890

can break at any point in time and I will be getting

01:15:02.890 - 01:15:06.470

call after call after call. You know,

01:15:06.590 - 01:15:09.630

and obviously if it breaks around the world in a

01:15:09.630 - 01:15:12.870

different time zone, you know, I can be getting those

01:15:12.870 - 01:15:16.610

calls at any time of day or night and having to then

01:15:16.610 - 01:15:20.750

respond to that. So, you know, there is that

01:15:20.750 - 01:15:24.550

impact that I can never guarantee that we will have

01:15:24.550 - 01:15:26.970

time away. I mean, many times I've been on holiday and

01:15:26.970 - 01:15:29.910

I've been doing press calls, you know, media calls,

01:15:30.630 - 01:15:32.710

sitting at the side of the pool or whatever with

01:15:32.710 - 01:15:35.370

my partner because I can never say I'm

01:15:35.370 - 01:15:39.390

off. And that's the same also as a pastor.

01:15:39.850 - 01:15:43.370

You're never really off. You never really have

01:15:43.370 - 01:15:47.270

time when you're not working because God's never

01:15:47.270 - 01:15:49.850

off and if you're being called to do God's work,

01:15:50.090 - 01:15:54.470

then, you know, so it does have an impact.

01:15:54.590 - 01:15:58.690

It has an impact on my friends. I don't get to

01:15:58.690 - 01:16:01.390

see them perhaps as often as I'd like or as often as they'd

01:16:01.390 - 01:16:07.430

like. It has an impact in that I'm being

01:16:07.430 - 01:16:15.610

such a professional person. It's very

01:16:15.610 - 01:16:19.290

rare I can go anywhere without somebody

01:16:19.290 - 01:16:22.350

recognising me or knowing who I am.

01:16:24.590 - 01:16:26.810

You know, there's very few places, even the

01:16:26.810 - 01:16:31.090

other week I went to the cinema and I was standing

01:16:31.090 - 01:16:34.730

in the queue to buy the tickets and the person behind me said, didn't I

01:16:34.730 - 01:16:37.650

see you on television last week? And I think, I

01:16:37.650 - 01:16:41.470

just want to watch a film and I don't want to be somebody who you

01:16:41.470 - 01:16:50.450

saw on television. So it does have that impact that I have to be

01:16:50.450 - 01:16:54.210

thinking all the time, you know, I can't just

01:16:54.930 - 01:16:57.950

throw on a dirty old pair of joggers and

01:16:57.950 - 01:17:02.090

pop round to the corner shop because I don't know who I'm

01:17:02.090 - 01:17:07.070

going to bump into. And, you know, all the

01:17:07.070 - 01:17:10.170

time you're thinking about how are people perceiving me,

01:17:10.230 - 01:17:13.970

how am I coming across, am I going to be doing anything or saying

01:17:13.970 - 01:17:17.730

anything that's going to have a negative impact on what it is that I'm

01:17:17.730 - 01:17:23.090

trying to achieve. And it's the same within any of, you

01:17:23.090 - 01:17:26.130

know, not just my, obviously my primary relationship

01:17:26.130 - 01:17:29.450

with my partner but also on my friends' relationships and

01:17:29.450 - 01:17:34.210

things, you know, there's always sort of how I am in

01:17:34.210 - 01:17:40.410

relationship will be seen and commented on whether it's

01:17:40.410 - 01:17:44.730

because of me as a pastor or because of me as the chief exec of

01:17:44.730 - 01:17:49.150

LGCM or because I'm part of this campaign or that campaign.

01:17:50.210 - 01:17:56.690

All of these things do, you know, do have an impact and a

01:17:56.690 - 01:17:59.790

serious one on relationships. You know, my mum would like to

01:17:59.790 - 01:18:03.810

see me more. Her health is failing. Things aren't good

01:18:03.810 - 01:18:07.110

there but, you know, they're an hour and a half, two hours drive away

01:18:08.010 - 01:18:12.230

so I can't just pop in, you know, so it's a case of when do I have at

01:18:12.230 - 01:18:15.790

least five hours free to be able to take the trip down there so I can at

01:18:15.790 - 01:18:18.370

least spend an hour or so with her before having to then drive back.

01:18:21.230 - 01:18:25.990

So, you know, doing this type of work does have an impact on your

01:18:25.990 - 01:18:30.730

relationships and on every other aspect of your life.

01:18:33.770 - 01:18:36.910

You've worked with disabled kids and deaf people.

01:18:37.050 - 01:18:43.210

Can you tell me why you decided to do that kind of work?

01:18:47.190 - 01:18:52.590

Yeah. When I was a teenager, the area of work that I

01:18:52.590 - 01:18:56.310

wanted to go into was speech therapy and that's what I

01:18:56.310 - 01:19:02.750

applied to do at Deakin University. And I'm not quite

01:19:02.750 - 01:19:07.790

sure why speech therapy was the thing for me. It might have

01:19:07.790 - 01:19:11.730

been partly because I have had some issues with my own

01:19:11.730 - 01:19:17.390

hearing as a young child and obviously that affects

01:19:17.390 - 01:19:23.070

speech and I had quite a pronounced lisp when I

01:19:23.070 - 01:19:24.930

was younger which isn't quite so bad now.

01:19:25.050 - 01:19:29.610

So I think perhaps these were the sort of things that

01:19:30.130 - 01:19:33.630

made me think that speech therapy would be a good profession

01:19:33.630 - 01:19:39.030

to go into. But certainly I saw myself in some sort

01:19:39.030 - 01:19:41.750

of caring profession, I guess. Maybe that was

01:19:41.750 - 01:19:44.910

partly to do with the fact that my family had fostered from

01:19:44.910 - 01:19:49.090

when I was 12 years old, 12, 13 years old and therefore

01:19:50.090 - 01:19:54.730

the focus from my family was on caring in some way.

01:19:58.810 - 01:20:01.990

So I guess that sort of led me along that route

01:20:01.990 - 01:20:05.210

and then as I say when I left college after

01:20:05.210 - 01:20:09.650

doing my A levels, I really had to move out of

01:20:10.270 - 01:20:14.310

the home. So as I wasn't moving away to uni, I had to

01:20:14.310 - 01:20:17.130

move away somewhere. So I was looking for a

01:20:17.130 - 01:20:21.670

residential post. I got one as the assistant matron

01:20:21.670 - 01:20:24.050

at a preparatory school. So again, I

01:20:24.050 - 01:20:26.190

was caring for children which was something

01:20:26.190 - 01:20:28.030

which was second nature to me because I

01:20:28.030 - 01:20:29.710

had been caring for children since I was 12

01:20:30.430 - 01:20:32.750

and obviously all my experience in Sunday

01:20:32.750 - 01:20:36.470

school, youth groups, etc., all came in useful there

01:20:36.470 - 01:20:40.270

as well. But it wasn't satisfying

01:20:40.270 - 01:20:45.970

enough and then as I say I left

01:20:45.970 - 01:20:48.110

there and I got the job at the Royal School

01:20:48.110 - 01:20:52.110

for Deaf Children. And I guess that

01:20:52.110 - 01:20:54.090

really started me off along that field because then

01:20:54.090 - 01:20:56.670

I started doing some studying around residential social

01:20:56.670 - 01:21:01.930

work, learnt sign, got more involved in that sort

01:21:01.930 - 01:21:04.950

of thing. And then because all the fostering

01:21:04.950 - 01:21:06.450

that my family had done had been with

01:21:06.450 - 01:21:11.170

children with learning disabilities, it also

01:21:11.170 - 01:21:16.310

I'd been involved with Mencap and so again

01:21:16.310 - 01:21:18.610

my next step then was to be working with the

01:21:18.610 - 01:21:22.850

Mencap in running the day centre. So it was

01:21:22.850 - 01:21:25.470

just sort of a natural progression I guess to be

01:21:25.470 - 01:21:29.090

working within that sort of social work care field.

01:21:29.790 - 01:21:34.430

But I'd always been a very good organiser, manager, and

01:21:34.430 - 01:21:37.450

so again it was quite natural for me to move into

01:21:37.450 - 01:21:42.010

the management side of this type of work as well as

01:21:42.010 - 01:21:46.650

the more hands-on. And then I worked on a

01:21:46.650 - 01:21:49.670

community help and information project. I did have

01:21:49.670 - 01:21:52.270

some time out because I think I got to a point where there was

01:21:52.270 - 01:21:55.970

a bit of a burnout because when you're giving all the

01:21:55.970 - 01:21:59.510

time this is something which can happen if you don't take

01:21:59.510 - 01:22:03.070

care. And so I actually left the care profession

01:22:03.070 - 01:22:07.430

and went into financial planning and was a financial planning

01:22:07.430 - 01:22:11.230

adviser for eight years again though running a branch

01:22:12.270 - 01:22:16.730

of a financial planning company and did that for eight years

01:22:16.730 - 01:22:21.430

before then actually moving back into management of

01:22:21.430 - 01:22:24.510

domiciliary care. I also managed a

01:22:24.510 - 01:22:31.550

home for the elderly and continued on

01:22:31.550 - 01:22:33.830

with my psychological training before going into

01:22:33.830 - 01:22:38.590

becoming a forensic psychologist. And after

01:22:38.590 - 01:22:41.310

having left forensic psychology going back and doing

01:22:41.310 - 01:22:44.390

theology it seemed to be quite a natural thing to go

01:22:44.390 - 01:22:47.610

back into the management and the care side within

01:22:47.610 - 01:22:51.750

disability because this had been the main field that I had

01:22:51.750 - 01:22:54.270

knowledge of and it fitted in with working

01:22:54.270 - 01:22:55.970

as a pastor part time as well.

01:22:55.970 - 01:23:03.430

So I guess it's been quite a natural progression but

01:23:03.430 - 01:23:07.550

it has brought out what was I guess

01:23:07.550 - 01:23:11.130

inherently in me was this need to pastor,

01:23:11.370 - 01:23:14.010

this need to care, this need to protect

01:23:14.010 - 01:23:17.310

which I think are all things that God has

01:23:17.310 - 01:23:20.410

implanted in me as part of my calling

01:23:20.410 - 01:23:25.850

to God's ministry. Apart from working with

01:23:25.850 - 01:23:29.210

elderly people and working with disabled kids and

01:23:29.210 - 01:23:31.670

deaf kids, is there any other work you have

01:23:31.670 - 01:23:35.470

undertaken and why? Well as I said the financial

01:23:35.470 - 01:23:39.630

planning was the main thing, eight years in that and then

01:23:39.630 - 01:23:44.210

also as forensic psychologist. All of these things I think

01:23:44.210 - 01:23:47.410

have been really useful because obviously working in

01:23:47.410 - 01:23:51.950

financial planning meant that I then studied about pension

01:23:51.950 - 01:23:55.210

provision, insurances, learned how to read spreadsheets

01:23:55.210 - 01:23:57.930

and accounts and everything because I did a lot of corporate

01:23:57.930 - 01:24:02.010

financial planning which again has then been very very helpful

01:24:02.010 - 01:24:06.410

in the work that I've done since then because the

01:24:06.410 - 01:24:09.730

management roles that I've taken on have required me to be involved

01:24:09.730 - 01:24:14.450

in fundraising and budgeting so when I look back

01:24:14.450 - 01:24:18.430

everything that I've done has been another step along

01:24:18.430 - 01:24:21.850

the route to give me the knowledge and understanding

01:24:21.850 - 01:24:25.570

and expertise that I need to be using in my work

01:24:25.570 - 01:24:29.510

today. So it all falls into place very nicely.

01:24:30.490 - 01:24:33.490

What's your view on changes that have taken place

01:24:33.490 - 01:24:37.490

in the church and society over the last 40 years?

01:24:38.730 - 01:24:43.270

There's been some huge huge changes. I mean

01:24:43.270 - 01:24:46.310

you know during that time, well just

01:24:46.310 - 01:24:49.710

prior to that time of course it was still illegal for

01:24:49.710 - 01:24:53.110

for men to be homosexual obviously there's been no legal

01:24:53.110 - 01:24:57.870

restraints put upon women but it was for men.

01:24:58.970 - 01:25:02.910

So you know we have gone from a time where people

01:25:02.910 - 01:25:06.630

were completely closeted to a time when people

01:25:06.630 - 01:25:09.410

can now be completely open if they so wish

01:25:09.410 - 01:25:14.790

in a very short period of time and I think

01:25:14.790 - 01:25:17.350

we sometimes forget how short a period of time that

01:25:17.350 - 01:25:22.650

really is for people to be able to work

01:25:22.650 - 01:25:25.150

through and change their understandings

01:25:25.770 - 01:25:31.270

and their perspective. You know our life expectancy

01:25:31.270 - 01:25:34.790

nowadays is around 80 years so 40

01:25:34.790 - 01:25:40.270

years isn't even a lifetime and yet

01:25:40.270 - 01:25:43.990

we've had these major major changes going on.

01:25:46.690 - 01:25:50.130

You know the reason is that the reality

01:25:50.650 - 01:25:54.330

LGBT people have been sitting in church pews

01:25:55.130 - 01:25:59.990

forever but either it was ignored

01:25:59.990 - 01:26:02.110

and not spoken about or it was unknown.

01:26:03.010 - 01:26:04.970

You know two women would go along and

01:26:04.970 - 01:26:07.210

they would either be seen as sisters

01:26:07.210 - 01:26:11.050

or as friends and nothing would be

01:26:11.050 - 01:26:15.310

said. Two men it would have been

01:26:15.310 - 01:26:19.050

more difficult you know they may have got away

01:26:19.050 - 01:26:22.550

with being considered brothers but it would

01:26:22.550 - 01:26:24.430

have been far more difficult for men

01:26:24.430 - 01:26:27.950

and obviously men going into the clergy

01:26:29.090 - 01:26:32.850

this was often I'm not saying they

01:26:32.850 - 01:26:34.710

weren't called to that but this was often

01:26:34.710 - 01:26:37.210

a safer option for them because then they

01:26:37.210 - 01:26:40.590

didn't have to face all the questions about

01:26:40.590 - 01:26:42.190

well why aren't you married and having a

01:26:42.190 - 01:26:44.830

family. You know they could use their

01:26:44.830 - 01:26:49.010

calling to ministry as their reason even if it

01:26:49.010 - 01:26:50.690

wasn't within the Catholic Church and so they

01:26:50.690 - 01:26:52.850

were allowed to get married. They could

01:26:52.850 - 01:26:54.830

use that calling as well not having time

01:26:54.830 - 01:26:56.610

for being totally devoted to their work and

01:26:57.350 - 01:27:02.690

so this was opportunities for people

01:27:02.690 - 01:27:06.750

to hide in some respects. But the

01:27:06.750 - 01:27:10.270

church has come a long way but it's

01:27:10.270 - 01:27:14.750

still got a long, long way to go and I

01:27:14.750 - 01:27:19.090

guess one of the saddest things is that initially

01:27:19.090 - 01:27:22.410

the church was at the forefront of

01:27:23.630 - 01:27:27.230

changing the law of offering pastoral

01:27:27.990 - 01:27:30.990

care to the LGBT community.

01:27:31.390 - 01:27:33.570

You know they were part of the

01:27:33.570 - 01:27:38.470

Wolfenden report in saying that homosexuality

01:27:38.470 - 01:27:42.070

should be decriminalised etc. And the

01:27:42.070 - 01:27:44.810

sad thing is that now the church is

01:27:44.810 - 01:27:48.410

lagging so behind society. It hasn't been able

01:27:48.410 - 01:27:50.830

to keep up with the pace of the

01:27:50.830 - 01:27:55.070

changes that have taken place and so we

01:27:55.070 - 01:27:57.250

now have a lot more discrimination within church

01:27:57.250 - 01:27:59.530

than we have in society whereas as

01:27:59.530 - 01:28:01.930

I say it used to be the other way around.

01:28:05.670 - 01:28:09.790

I mean you know the issues that people

01:28:09.790 - 01:28:11.930

are facing have also changed throughout

01:28:11.930 - 01:28:18.190

that period of time whereas you know

01:28:18.190 - 01:28:20.410

not fearing going to jail

01:28:20.410 - 01:28:23.710

or losing your job or your

01:28:23.710 - 01:28:25.950

home if people found out you were

01:28:25.950 - 01:28:31.110

gay has now moved to can I

01:28:31.110 - 01:28:34.590

get married in my church? So

01:28:35.990 - 01:28:40.490

whilst these are all still equality issues

01:28:40.490 - 01:28:44.170

you know some people would probably rightly say

01:28:44.170 - 01:28:47.090

they're not quite such an issue of life and

01:28:47.090 - 01:28:50.730

death as they used to be and that's

01:28:50.730 - 01:28:54.890

really positive but it does mean though that in

01:28:54.890 - 01:28:58.510

some respects it's become harder for LGBT people

01:28:58.510 - 01:29:01.390

to have a faith and hold on to their

01:29:01.390 - 01:29:05.450

faith now than it was when they were having

01:29:05.450 - 01:29:09.450

to be in the closet. You actually could find

01:29:09.450 - 01:29:11.510

often a safe space in the church

01:29:11.510 - 01:29:13.630

as a gay person whereas you couldn't find

01:29:13.630 - 01:29:16.590

it in society. Whereas now it's the

01:29:16.590 - 01:29:18.350

other way around. You know you can be

01:29:18.350 - 01:29:21.530

totally open and out in society but have

01:29:21.530 - 01:29:22.850

to go back into the closet when you

01:29:22.850 - 01:29:24.830

go into the church and the church

01:29:24.830 - 01:29:27.170

isn't a safe place and this is why we've

01:29:27.170 - 01:29:29.590

seen a lot of LGBT people leave the

01:29:29.590 - 01:29:34.210

church and reject faith because of this

01:29:34.210 - 01:29:38.650

and also why we have seen different denominations

01:29:38.650 - 01:29:42.190

and churches spring up. You know the Metropolitan

01:29:42.190 - 01:29:46.490

Community Church came into existence in 1968

01:29:48.310 - 01:29:51.470

and you know less than 50 years

01:29:51.470 - 01:29:54.730

ago and this is because of the

01:29:54.730 - 01:29:58.210

fact that LGBT people were being thrown out of

01:29:58.210 - 01:30:02.110

churches and especially ministers within churches.

01:30:02.130 - 01:30:05.090

They were discovered to be gay. They would be

01:30:05.090 - 01:30:08.950

thrown out of the churches not allowed to perform ministries

01:30:08.950 - 01:30:12.070

not allowed to do anything. You had to remain in the

01:30:12.070 - 01:30:15.670

closet to remain in the church and so it

01:30:15.670 - 01:30:20.050

became clear back in the late 60s that there was

01:30:20.050 - 01:30:23.270

a need for a safe place for people who were LGBT

01:30:24.050 - 01:30:27.110

to be able to come together and to

01:30:27.110 - 01:30:30.050

worship God and to be able to celebrate their faith

01:30:30.050 - 01:30:35.210

and promote their faith within the LGBT

01:30:35.210 - 01:30:39.350

community and it's quite sad really that

01:30:40.050 - 01:30:43.310

that had to happen and that is still

01:30:43.310 - 01:30:46.730

the case. You know I believe in a God of

01:30:46.730 - 01:30:50.910

love. A God that opened his arms on

01:30:50.910 - 01:30:54.690

the cross to embrace everyone the whole

01:30:54.690 - 01:30:56.730

world and that includes the LGBT

01:30:56.730 - 01:31:00.330

community and therefore to have churches that

01:31:00.330 - 01:31:04.810

are saying no you're not welcome to me goes

01:31:04.810 - 01:31:08.870

completely against the gospel teaching

01:31:08.870 - 01:31:13.310

and against a God of love. So there's

01:31:13.310 - 01:31:16.250

some sadness for me that you know

01:31:16.250 - 01:31:18.870

there has to be a metropolitan community

01:31:18.870 - 01:31:22.250

church even though I'm a minister within that

01:31:22.250 - 01:31:26.510

denomination and even with all the changes that

01:31:26.510 - 01:31:29.590

have gone on within churches there is still

01:31:29.590 - 01:31:32.410

a desperate need for metropolitan community

01:31:32.410 - 01:31:36.150

churches and for a couple of different reasons.

01:31:37.190 - 01:31:40.110

One is that whilst there are more churches now

01:31:40.110 - 01:31:43.390

who are welcome and accepting of LGBT

01:31:43.390 - 01:31:48.110

people there's very few denominations where you can say

01:31:48.110 - 01:31:50.510

every church within that denomination will be

01:31:50.510 - 01:31:54.110

accepting and therefore for somebody who is

01:31:54.110 - 01:31:57.730

struggling to reconcile their faith and their

01:31:57.730 - 01:32:00.990

sexuality they're not going to want to take the

01:32:00.990 - 01:32:03.790

risk of going along to a church that may

01:32:03.790 - 01:32:06.610

or may not accept them and whilst

01:32:06.610 - 01:32:09.990

they might accept them how welcoming will they

01:32:09.990 - 01:32:13.330

be and will they be accepting

01:32:13.330 - 01:32:15.110

enough to give them the space to work

01:32:15.110 - 01:32:18.190

through their reconciliation or to be all that God

01:32:18.190 - 01:32:20.250

is calling them to be within that community

01:32:20.250 - 01:32:22.770

because there are churches that will accept gay

01:32:22.770 - 01:32:25.390

people but they limit what they can do within that

01:32:25.390 - 01:32:28.670

church they won't be allowed to run the youth group

01:32:28.670 - 01:32:31.310

or read or celebrate communion or whatever

01:32:31.310 - 01:32:36.330

the case may be so for some people

01:32:36.330 - 01:32:39.110

knowing that they can come to a church where they

01:32:39.110 - 01:32:42.330

are guaranteed to be acceptable and to be

01:32:42.330 - 01:32:44.630

able to bring all of themselves into that

01:32:44.630 - 01:32:49.250

church is really important and we do

01:32:49.250 - 01:32:50.870

see a lot of people that come through our

01:32:50.870 - 01:32:54.330

doors that once they've achieved that may

01:32:54.330 - 01:32:57.570

well actually go back to the denomination that they were

01:32:57.570 - 01:33:00.170

brought up in or that they were at home in before

01:33:00.170 - 01:33:02.990

once they've actually been able to get themselves to

01:33:02.990 - 01:33:05.530

that point of having that confidence and being

01:33:05.530 - 01:33:08.550

able to do that so there is still a need

01:33:08.550 - 01:33:12.630

for that there's also I believe a huge

01:33:12.630 - 01:33:16.850

need for MCC for asylum seekers

01:33:17.610 - 01:33:19.930

because what we're finding is that a lot of

01:33:19.930 - 01:33:23.470

people who are seeking asylum especially from

01:33:23.470 - 01:33:25.810

the African and Eastern European countries

01:33:27.330 - 01:33:31.750

they often they have had issues

01:33:31.750 - 01:33:34.750

with their sexuality and the laws in

01:33:34.750 - 01:33:37.630

their country because of the religious right

01:33:38.910 - 01:33:41.930

it has been religious people

01:33:41.930 - 01:33:46.550

claiming authority of God's word

01:33:46.550 - 01:33:50.470

to actually bring in these laws that will

01:33:50.470 - 01:33:54.430

criminalize LGBT people and therefore

01:33:54.430 - 01:33:57.570

taking the chance of entering a church

01:33:57.570 - 01:33:59.250

when you've come from a country where the

01:33:59.250 - 01:34:02.550

church has been at the forefront of discriminating

01:34:02.550 - 01:34:05.350

against you is an incredibly risky business

01:34:05.350 - 01:34:07.710

and so again to be able to go into a church

01:34:07.710 - 01:34:10.790

that you know is safe and to start

01:34:10.790 - 01:34:12.950

that healing journey when you have had

01:34:12.950 - 01:34:17.050

aspects of yourself ripped apart within your

01:34:17.050 - 01:34:20.670

own country I think is very important

01:34:20.670 - 01:34:23.230

and the third reason that I think that there is

01:34:23.230 - 01:34:27.650

still a need for MCCs is for people who don't fit

01:34:27.650 - 01:34:32.610

into the gender binary whilst as I say some

01:34:32.610 - 01:34:34.930

churches are now accepting lesbian and gay and

01:34:34.930 - 01:34:39.370

bisexual people I think churches are still struggling very hard with

01:34:39.370 - 01:34:42.070

people who identify as trans who are

01:34:42.070 - 01:34:45.890

gender variant gender fluid in some way and therefore

01:34:45.890 - 01:34:49.710

for people especially those who even aren't

01:34:49.710 - 01:34:51.650

looking to transition from one gender to another

01:34:51.650 - 01:34:53.450

who aren't fitting into the gender binary

01:34:54.850 - 01:34:58.070

but who are exploring gender in a different way

01:34:58.590 - 01:35:00.590

and wanting to present in a different way

01:35:01.170 - 01:35:04.110

they are finding it very hard to find a

01:35:04.110 - 01:35:06.410

church that will again accept them and embrace

01:35:06.410 - 01:35:08.870

them and allow them to be all of who they

01:35:08.870 - 01:35:12.710

are so you know I think we still have a

01:35:12.710 - 01:35:14.930

long way to go with other churches where that

01:35:14.930 - 01:35:19.350

aspect is concerned so the changes over

01:35:19.350 - 01:35:24.610

the years have been remarkable and across

01:35:24.610 - 01:35:27.330

all the denominations all the denominations

01:35:27.330 - 01:35:29.130

are in different places we can't really just

01:35:29.130 - 01:35:34.710

talk about the church because the church is

01:35:34.710 - 01:35:38.830

or a body with just a thought or

01:35:38.830 - 01:35:42.130

a way of being it's incredibly

01:35:42.130 - 01:35:45.150

varied often people talk about the church

01:35:45.150 - 01:35:46.910

meaning the Anglican church in this country

01:35:46.910 - 01:35:49.530

the church of England because that's the principal

01:35:49.530 - 01:35:52.370

church in this country but even within the

01:35:52.370 - 01:35:54.510

church of England there is huge

01:35:55.130 - 01:35:58.850

diversity you know we hear that the

01:35:58.850 - 01:36:01.490

church of England is opposed to same-sex

01:36:01.490 - 01:36:03.990

marriage is opposed to this that and

01:36:03.990 - 01:36:07.390

the other but while some of the

01:36:07.390 - 01:36:11.190

policies and some of the doctrines

01:36:11.190 - 01:36:13.330

that the church of England are hanging

01:36:13.330 - 01:36:17.270

onto might seem that way individuals

01:36:17.270 - 01:36:19.150

within the church of England don't

01:36:19.150 - 01:36:21.670

necessarily think or believe in that way

01:36:21.670 - 01:36:25.870

and that also includes clergy and bishops

01:36:27.410 - 01:36:29.830

and so there's a lot of work to be done

01:36:29.830 - 01:36:32.390

within the church of England in order for

01:36:32.390 - 01:36:34.810

them to hear the views of all the

01:36:34.810 - 01:36:37.730

people that make up that church and maybe

01:36:37.730 - 01:36:40.210

to start rethinking some of their doctrines

01:36:40.210 - 01:36:44.430

within the Catholic church you know we've had

01:36:44.430 - 01:36:46.070

encyclicals come out from the Pope saying

01:36:46.070 - 01:36:48.770

that we're morally disordered but we

01:36:48.770 - 01:36:51.570

now have a Pope who has recently said

01:36:51.570 - 01:36:53.290

that it's not for them to judge

01:36:53.290 - 01:36:55.470

and a person's sexuality is a

01:36:55.470 - 01:36:59.350

private thing and would not have an

01:36:59.350 - 01:37:02.250

issue with a priest who was homosexual

01:37:03.390 - 01:37:06.990

as long as they you know fulfilled their

01:37:06.990 - 01:37:09.490

vows of celibacy etc but would

01:37:09.490 - 01:37:11.150

not judge you know they would not be

01:37:11.150 - 01:37:13.770

kicked out just for the fact that they

01:37:13.770 - 01:37:17.650

had a homosexual orientation so we

01:37:17.650 - 01:37:21.630

do see movement in all of

01:37:21.630 - 01:37:24.830

the denominations the Methodist

01:37:24.830 - 01:37:27.530

church are currently having a consultation

01:37:27.530 - 01:37:30.630

process around whether their buildings should be used

01:37:30.630 - 01:37:35.310

for same sex marriage and yet on the other

01:37:35.310 - 01:37:37.110

hand they are still holding on that same

01:37:37.110 - 01:37:39.210

sex marriage is not acceptable but they're

01:37:39.210 - 01:37:40.650

still looking at whether they should open up

01:37:40.650 - 01:37:42.950

their buildings for these ceremonies

01:37:42.950 - 01:37:46.710

so there's a little bit of contradiction going on in

01:37:46.710 - 01:37:48.170

a lot of the churches at the moment

01:37:48.170 - 01:37:52.850

because they are trying to embrace a pastoral

01:37:52.850 - 01:37:55.370

way of being even when they're not

01:37:55.370 - 01:37:58.390

ready to let go of some of their

01:37:58.390 - 01:38:01.650

older teachings and doctrines because

01:38:02.170 - 01:38:05.610

what they are faced with the reality

01:38:05.610 - 01:38:09.070

of living the reality of being in relationship

01:38:09.070 - 01:38:13.850

with people who identify as LGBT and the doctrines

01:38:13.850 - 01:38:16.710

that they're trying to hang on to aren't congruent

01:38:16.710 - 01:38:20.830

at this point in time and I think we're in

01:38:20.830 - 01:38:24.210

a very interesting time in our lives

01:38:24.210 - 01:38:28.010

within the churches whilst they actually try

01:38:28.010 - 01:38:30.110

to work these things through and find out how

01:38:30.110 - 01:38:32.970

they can actually bring them together into something

01:38:32.970 - 01:38:36.970

that's more coherent. It's the same within the

01:38:36.970 - 01:38:42.510

Baptist church and there are people within all

01:38:42.510 - 01:38:46.650

these denominations who are speaking out and who

01:38:46.650 - 01:38:49.150

are trying to help the churches to move

01:38:49.150 - 01:38:51.430

forward and be more accepting and welcoming

01:38:51.430 - 01:38:58.330

and open. The United Reformed Church tends to leave

01:38:58.330 - 01:39:03.790

things to the individual a lot more and so again

01:39:03.790 - 01:39:07.990

we see great diversity. I know an area in London where

01:39:07.990 - 01:39:11.390

there are two churches only three miles apart and

01:39:11.950 - 01:39:15.130

if an LGBT person was to go along to the one church

01:39:15.130 - 01:39:19.770

the minister there would very lovingly and politely say we think you

01:39:19.770 - 01:39:23.370

would feel more comfortable if you went down the road because

01:39:23.370 - 01:39:28.350

that particular church isn't welcoming of LGBT people and yet

01:39:28.350 - 01:39:31.450

it's sister church three miles down the road absolutely is.

01:39:34.490 - 01:39:39.970

So you know it's a journey. It's very much a journey and

01:39:39.970 - 01:39:43.410

we've seen similar things similar journeys over other

01:39:43.410 - 01:39:46.110

issues. You know the church went through a

01:39:46.110 - 01:39:48.290

very similar journey with regards to slavery.

01:39:49.490 - 01:39:52.210

We've seen the church going on this journey and

01:39:52.210 - 01:39:54.610

still on this journey with regards to gender.

01:39:55.450 - 01:39:58.810

You know the Church of England is still struggling about having

01:39:58.810 - 01:40:01.950

said that women can be ordained now of course they're going to

01:40:01.950 - 01:40:03.730

be ordained to a certain level and whether or not we should

01:40:03.730 - 01:40:06.790

let them be ordained to become bishops as well and

01:40:06.790 - 01:40:09.590

yet other churches have had women bishops for

01:40:09.590 - 01:40:12.110

years and years and years. And obviously

01:40:12.110 - 01:40:14.110

the Catholic Church won't even allow women to be

01:40:14.110 - 01:40:19.250

priests yet. So you know there is still that

01:40:19.250 - 01:40:22.990

journey going on. And I think the LGBT

01:40:22.990 - 01:40:27.050

journey will go on for a long, long time to come

01:40:28.250 - 01:40:33.390

as we start to understand more and

01:40:33.390 - 01:40:37.390

about God's love and open ourselves up to

01:40:37.390 - 01:40:40.630

actually start to become as big as

01:40:40.630 - 01:40:43.190

God rather than us making God smaller all

01:40:43.190 - 01:40:45.070

the time. And I think that's what a lot of the

01:40:45.070 - 01:40:48.310

problem is. We make God in our image rather

01:40:48.310 - 01:40:50.950

than us being made in God's image and when we do

01:40:50.950 - 01:40:53.730

that we make God very small, very small

01:40:53.730 - 01:40:56.230

indeed. And then every now and again God breaks

01:40:56.230 - 01:40:58.270

out of that tiny little box that we put God in

01:40:58.270 - 01:41:01.690

and we see a breakthrough and people move further down on

01:41:01.690 - 01:41:04.890

the journey and then we start scramming God back into this

01:41:04.890 - 01:41:08.030

tiny little box and then God breaks out again and we get

01:41:08.030 - 01:41:12.950

another revelation. And I think we see this going on all the

01:41:12.950 - 01:41:17.830

time and it's just important that we all carry on on

01:41:17.830 - 01:41:22.610

that journey, that we don't stop. We don't see

01:41:22.610 - 01:41:26.250

clearly now. Paul tells us in Corinthians that we see

01:41:26.250 - 01:41:29.790

dimly now and only when Christ comes again we'll all be made

01:41:29.790 - 01:41:33.890

clear. So none of us have the answers and we have to

01:41:33.890 - 01:41:36.890

learn to walk this path together to find those answers.

01:41:38.750 - 01:41:42.710

And fighting doesn't do it. We're called to be in relationship,

01:41:42.910 - 01:41:47.710

we're called to love and so those organizations that have set

01:41:47.710 - 01:41:55.190

themselves up to fight against homosexuality need to find

01:41:55.190 - 01:41:57.690

ways to be at the table with those people and those

01:41:57.690 - 01:42:02.250

organizations who have been set up to fight against discrimination on

01:42:02.250 - 01:42:06.930

the grounds of homosexuality. To look at, you know,

01:42:07.310 - 01:42:10.890

Christ gave us this law of love, how can we work together under

01:42:10.890 - 01:42:14.310

this law? Even if we believe different things, how can

01:42:14.310 - 01:42:19.910

we work together to promote love and find a way forward that we

01:42:19.910 - 01:42:26.610

can all continue on this journey? And so, yeah, I think there

01:42:26.610 - 01:42:28.690

was just so much more to it than that. more to be done

01:42:30.130 - 01:42:34.330

within all denominations, even within the MCC, you know,

01:42:34.370 - 01:42:36.810

even though this is a denomination that is supposed to be truly

01:42:36.810 - 01:42:41.110

inclusive and, you know, has its main ministry within

01:42:41.110 - 01:42:45.770

the LGBT community. The B and the T

01:42:45.770 - 01:42:49.550

and the Q and the I are still far too silent,

01:42:50.290 - 01:42:54.390

you know, we're still not fully inclusive, we still struggle,

01:42:54.550 - 01:42:57.190

you know, some gay men struggle with lesbians in the

01:42:57.190 - 01:43:00.690

church, gays and lesbians struggle with trans people in

01:43:00.690 - 01:43:04.910

the church. Most of them probably have no understanding of

01:43:04.910 - 01:43:09.670

what intersex is and what we mean by queer. You know,

01:43:10.010 - 01:43:14.490

if we're truly going to be inclusive, how do we embrace

01:43:14.490 - 01:43:16.750

all of those things? And then, you know,

01:43:16.850 - 01:43:20.350

move away from LGBTQI. You know, LGBTQI,

01:43:20.430 - 01:43:26.490

aren't LGBTQI just that independently? LGBTQI people

01:43:26.490 - 01:43:29.730

have mental health issues, are deaf, of different

01:43:29.730 - 01:43:34.570

ethnicities, different abilities and lack of abilities.

01:43:35.250 - 01:43:39.650

How do we embrace all of that and include all of that?

01:43:40.670 - 01:43:44.110

Because it's only when that all comes together that

01:43:44.110 - 01:43:47.210

we truly are the church. Because the church is just

01:43:47.210 - 01:43:49.830

the people of God and it's only when we bring all of

01:43:49.830 - 01:43:51.590

that together that we are the people of God.

01:43:52.750 - 01:43:56.950

Could you tell me about your hopes for the future regarding LGBTQ

01:43:56.950 - 01:44:01.330

acceptance by the society and by the church? I know you've

01:44:01.330 - 01:44:07.150

mentioned a few, but if you've got any other hopes, you can...

01:44:07.150 - 01:44:12.970

Well, my dream is that all denominations will accept

01:44:12.970 - 01:44:18.850

all people regardless. That means that the Catholic Church

01:44:18.850 - 01:44:27.210

will have a female disabled black woman with

01:44:27.210 - 01:44:31.770

three children out of wedlock as Pope. Maybe I'm pushing

01:44:31.770 - 01:44:39.310

it a bit there, but it's... You know, it's about...

01:44:40.350 - 01:44:44.370

Jesus didn't turn anyone away. Jesus looked at the heart

01:44:46.610 - 01:44:50.690

of each person. He looked at the heart of the Samaritan woman

01:44:50.690 - 01:44:54.850

at the well. You know, he looked at the heart of Peter

01:44:55.790 - 01:45:00.610

after Peter had denied him three times. He looked at the

01:45:00.610 - 01:45:05.130

heart of everybody. He looked at the heart of Paul who was going

01:45:05.130 - 01:45:12.050

around killing his followers. And... I just want

01:45:12.050 - 01:45:17.610

the churches to start looking at the heart. Stop judging people

01:45:17.610 - 01:45:23.610

by you know, those outer things, by those labels.

01:45:25.210 - 01:45:28.670

You know, Jesus could have judged the Samaritan woman

01:45:28.670 - 01:45:31.570

by her label of Samaritan and by her label of woman,

01:45:31.950 - 01:45:34.550

by her label of the fact that she'd had more than one husband,

01:45:35.030 - 01:45:41.330

but he didn't. You know, he related to her according to

01:45:41.330 - 01:45:44.570

where her heart was and could see that she clearly wanted to drink

01:45:44.570 - 01:45:49.470

of that living water. And I would just like there to be a church

01:45:49.930 - 01:45:54.610

that looks at the heart of people and says, come and drink

01:45:54.610 - 01:45:59.150

of the living water. And you don't have to leave behind the fact that

01:45:59.150 - 01:46:01.590

you're Samaritan or the fact that you're a woman or the fact that

01:46:01.590 - 01:46:06.590

you've been married more than once because you're welcome as you are.

01:46:08.570 - 01:46:12.850

And that would be my hope. And regardless of denomination,

01:46:14.490 - 01:46:19.190

you know, the denomination should just be there because people

01:46:19.190 - 01:46:23.990

like to worship in different ways. That's the only reason there should be

01:46:23.990 - 01:46:27.870

different denominations. Because some people like all the bells and smells

01:46:27.870 - 01:46:31.150

and the pomp and the ceremony. Some people want the freedom

01:46:32.070 - 01:46:35.350

where there is no structure in the service, people just do what they want.

01:46:35.710 - 01:46:39.990

And there's something in between all of that. So the denomination should be there

01:46:39.990 - 01:46:43.490

because it offers people different ways of expressing their love to God.

01:46:44.410 - 01:46:48.570

But there should be no difference in the denomination about the fact

01:46:48.570 - 01:46:56.630

that all are welcome because God sees the heart. Would it be okay

01:46:56.630 - 01:47:01.230

to arrange to take your photograph to use on the website and exhibition?

01:47:02.530 - 01:47:07.150

Thank you so much for your time. We've come to the end of our interview

01:47:07.830 - 01:47:14.170

and I do appreciate all you've done today. You're more than welcome. It's been great.

01:47:18.470 - 01:47:30.770

Are there any things I should have asked you about but I didn't? The only thing

01:47:30.770 - 01:47:36.790

I think I can think of might be a little bit more about perhaps some

01:47:36.790 - 01:47:42.450

of the actual campaigns that I've been involved in through LGCM that might be of interest

01:47:43.090 - 01:47:49.970

that have obviously impacted on the church and on people's faith. And I guess the biggest

01:47:49.970 - 01:47:58.030

one of those is around equal marriage, the current one, because marriage,

01:47:58.630 - 01:48:03.970

unlike civil partnerships to such an extent, does have a huge impact on the church,

01:48:04.290 - 01:48:10.830

especially as we manage to get into law the ability to celebrate marriages within churches

01:48:10.830 - 01:48:18.170

and by ministers if they are okay to do this. And I do think

01:48:18.170 - 01:48:22.350

that that's been a huge thing for the churches and has been a catalyst

01:48:22.350 - 01:48:30.590

in getting the churches to really look at this again. And at the same time it's also had

01:48:30.590 - 01:48:36.510

a negative impact on some people within some churches because while some people

01:48:36.510 - 01:48:40.590

have been accepting of civil partnerships and have thought that it was right

01:48:40.590 - 01:48:46.310

that lesbian and gay relationships should be recognised and protected by society, etc.

01:48:47.070 - 01:48:52.630

For some people of faith they haven't though felt that it's right to call it a marriage

01:48:52.630 - 01:48:57.330

because they completely believe that marriage is just between a man

01:48:57.330 - 01:49:04.010

and a woman and that this is how God ordained it and therefore

01:49:04.010 - 01:49:08.130

they struggle with the concept of same-sex couples getting married

01:49:08.130 - 01:49:11.610

even though they didn't have any problem with same-sex couples

01:49:11.610 - 01:49:18.690

having civil partnerships and being fully protected. So I think this has been

01:49:18.690 - 01:49:24.350

a big thing within churches and within people within the pews

01:49:24.350 - 01:49:28.170

and also some people who would accept a civil marriage

01:49:28.170 - 01:49:33.110

who aren't tied up on marriage being man and woman do also struggle though

01:49:33.110 - 01:49:38.010

with marriage taking place within a church. So all of these

01:49:38.010 - 01:49:43.410

sorts of issues have come up with the idea of equal marriage

01:49:43.410 - 01:49:47.370

but one of the things that I find most distressing about the whole thing

01:49:47.370 - 01:49:53.130

again is how the government has weighed in very strongly

01:49:53.130 - 01:49:58.430

on the side of fundamentalist Christians rather than

01:49:58.430 - 01:50:03.430

on the side of liberal Christians who are in favour of it

01:50:04.410 - 01:50:08.410

because whilst they have made it possible for denominations

01:50:09.250 - 01:50:12.950

and clergy to perform marriages and to register their buildings

01:50:12.950 - 01:50:19.450

to perform religious marriages there are so many obstacles

01:50:19.450 - 01:50:24.470

in the way for that to happen. For example if a clergy person

01:50:24.470 - 01:50:28.990

from the Church of England wanted to perform a religious marriage

01:50:29.530 - 01:50:32.950

and if their congregation wanted to register their building

01:50:33.530 - 01:50:39.010

they wouldn't be able to because the authority has to come from

01:50:39.010 - 01:50:43.370

the governing body and the governing body of the Church of England has said that

01:50:43.370 - 01:50:50.850

no this is not acceptable but in a denomination that does want

01:50:50.850 - 01:50:53.670

to do it so for example that's used again in MCC

01:50:54.330 - 01:50:58.330

MCC say yes we want to do it we register our buildings our clergy can do it

01:50:58.810 - 01:51:03.690

if one of our clergy was to say no I don't agree with it I don't want to

01:51:03.690 - 01:51:08.230

perform marriage they would have the right not to do it so there's lots

01:51:08.230 - 01:51:13.190

of situations like that where there's the ability

01:51:13.190 - 01:51:15.930

to not do perform marriage and

01:51:15.930 - 01:51:21.870

not to participate not to register buildings if you don't want to

01:51:21.870 - 01:51:27.190

but if you're within an organisation that's opposed but you want to do it

01:51:27.190 - 01:51:32.930

you don't have the same freedom and I think that's not acceptable

01:51:34.530 - 01:51:37.910

and it's the same with like registering of buildings if

01:51:37.910 - 01:51:43.170

if a church that owns the building wants to register their building

01:51:43.170 - 01:51:47.490

but they rent a room out or they rent the church out to another faith group

01:51:47.490 - 01:51:51.490

once a month for at least an hour that other faith group even though they're just

01:51:51.490 - 01:51:56.750

a tenant has the right to stop that registration and this sort of thing

01:51:56.750 - 01:52:01.630

I feel is really not acceptable but they're all things

01:52:01.630 - 01:52:05.850

that hopefully we can do something about as time moves on but the

01:52:06.630 - 01:52:09.990

you know the campaign around equal marriage I think has been

01:52:09.990 - 01:52:15.290

a really important one because again it puts LGBT relationships

01:52:16.410 - 01:52:21.270

on the same footing as heterosexual relationships and I think this is an important

01:52:21.270 - 01:52:26.730

factor in making homosexuality completely acceptable

01:52:26.730 - 01:52:31.210

within society and also whilst you know

01:52:31.210 - 01:52:34.790

I mean there's horrendous things going on in other countries and a lot of people

01:52:34.790 - 01:52:38.290

may say well why are you spending time and energy into getting marriage

01:52:38.290 - 01:52:41.750

when you have civil partnerships when there's all these other things going on in other countries

01:52:41.750 - 01:52:45.870

but the fact is that all the time there is anything

01:52:45.870 - 01:52:52.050

in this country where there is saying that there is a difference in a negative way

01:52:52.050 - 01:52:55.410

between you know the relationships between people

01:52:55.410 - 01:52:59.710

of the same gender and opposite gender it actually gives credence and justification

01:52:59.710 - 01:53:04.370

to other countries to continue to discriminate against homosexuality

01:53:04.370 - 01:53:08.870

so if this country is going to be a beacon and saying there is complete equality

01:53:08.870 - 01:53:14.610

there is complete acceptance you know we do not view people who

01:53:14.610 - 01:53:18.190

are homosexual in any different way or treat them in any different way

01:53:18.190 - 01:53:23.250

to anybody else only when we are doing that here can we really

01:53:23.250 - 01:53:27.070

put pressure on other countries to do the same and can really

01:53:27.070 - 01:53:31.550

be a beacon so I do think it's important that we continue

01:53:31.550 - 01:53:35.730

to deal with those issues not to mention the fact that even with all

01:53:35.730 - 01:53:38.950

the equality laws in this country people are still being murdered

01:53:38.950 - 01:53:43.530

because of their gender identity or their sexual orientation people are still

01:53:43.530 - 01:53:47.710

being sacked from jobs or not getting promotions people are still

01:53:47.710 - 01:53:51.930

finding it hard to find safe accommodation so even with

01:53:51.930 - 01:53:55.210

all the laws there are these things that are still going on

01:53:55.210 - 01:53:57.850

you know people are still being kicked out of churches

01:53:57.850 - 01:54:01.650

still being excluded from being able to receive communion in their church

01:54:01.650 - 01:54:06.350

all these things are still happening and so we do still need to

01:54:06.350 - 01:54:10.750

continue on with all of that side of the campaigning the other things

01:54:10.750 - 01:54:15.710

of course is the campaigning around all of the anti-homosexuality laws

01:54:15.710 - 01:54:21.870

that are springing up say across Africa and Eastern Europe and this is

01:54:21.870 - 01:54:25.210

really important work that we're doing I mean LGCM has done

01:54:25.210 - 01:54:29.370

some fantastic campaigning over the years under Richard Kirker

01:54:29.370 - 01:54:32.630

and I really do think we would be in the position

01:54:32.630 - 01:54:37.790

we're in today if it hadn't been for all of his hard work throughout

01:54:37.790 - 01:54:40.570

those years and I think we have an awful lot to be thankful

01:54:40.570 - 01:54:45.050

to him for and it has made my job a lot easier because the issues

01:54:45.050 - 01:54:50.470

aren't quite as huge as they used to be so yeah I'd say that

01:54:51.030 - 01:54:56.710

that's the only thing is is to talk a little bit more

01:54:56.710 - 01:54:59.470

about those sorts of campaigns that we've been involved in

01:55:00.130 - 01:55:01.910

okay thank you thank you again Sharon

01:55:02.810 - 01:55:05.130

and may God bless you and you thank you