00:00:00.000 - 00:00:38.700

Could you tell me a bit about your background, like childhood and growing up in Nigeria? Yes, I remained in Nigeria after my birth until I was eight when I was sent to school in Britain. But I think before I was eight, I did accompany my parents back to the United Kingdom on three or four home tours or home visits. To England, so they were leave for my parents involved coming back to Britain every two years for three months I think.

00:00:40.140 - 00:01:08.760

But I was and am an only son of my parents' first marriage, in fact my mother's only marriage. My father subsequently remarried. I have a step or half, I never know the difference. Siblings, but they're much, much younger than me and they don't live in Britain. So I see very little of them and have never seen very much of them at all.

00:01:09.260 - 00:01:38.860

Because by the time that my father remarried, I'd really begun to move away from home. Although I still carried on seeing my mother and his second wife, my stepmother, from time to time. And they remained in Nigeria? Well, as with any family ever, there are complications along the way.

00:01:39.040 - 00:02:07.480

But no, my father stayed in Africa, in Nigeria until independence in 1961. In fact he came back in 1962. He worked in Britain for a while, about five or six years. Hated it, wanted to go back to Africa where he'd been all the time since the end of the Second World War. He then found a job working in Lesotho, his first job after leaving Britain.

00:02:08.480 - 00:02:36.780

He was in Lesotho, formerly Bekuana land, which meant that he was travelling around the former British territories. Although Lesotho had only just become independent, he travelled to Botswana and Swaziland in his capacities, working for the Ministry of Finance for the Lesotho government on a British aid programme. But that meant, because of his move there, there was a period in which, during some of the school holidays,

00:02:38.160 - 00:03:10.480

I would go to Lesotho and I travelled around southern Africa a considerable amount, hitchhiking from the age of about 16, 17, until my last visit in, which would have been in 1972 or 73, I think after I'd come back from working myself in Pakistan for a while. So I have Africa in my blood, having spent my formative years, their childhood and formative years,

00:03:10.820 - 00:03:39.840

well part of my formative years up until I was 13, 12, 13, in Nigeria. So I identify very much with various aspects of African history and culture because all my friends were black and I was a very odd creature being white in an almost exclusively black environment. Yeah, yeah. So you were mainly living with your mother?

00:03:40.320 - 00:04:11.480

Well, once they divorced, the deal was half the holidays with each. Oh, okay. So, unless they agreed otherwise, so some of the time I would spend my school vacation holidays with my mother and some with my father. But I've travelled an enormous amount during my adolescence, well prior to and after my adolescence,

00:04:11.660 - 00:04:36.300

but travelling backwards and forwards from what we call a prep school here from the age of 8, three times a year from Lagos to London and London to Lagos. Clocked up the air miles in the days when there were, well I began flying regularly four jets, so they were propeller journey flights, propeller driven flights.

00:04:37.860 - 00:05:17.300

And I just can remember being in an aircraft an enormous amount of time in my younger years from the age of 8 until my early 20s. I was in the air three, four, five times a year, well no, six or eight times a year sometimes. But they subsequently became jets and rather faster, but it meant that I travelled, or at least stopped over in places en route between Nigeria and then more latterly southern Africa and Britain.

00:05:17.820 - 00:05:40.960

Oh, okay. How was, I mean from the earlier ages and your parents, was there much of a religious background? No, they didn't contaminate me with anything approximated to Christianity. I acquired that bad habit from elsewhere. Okay. May I ask where you acquired that bad habit?

00:05:42.840 - 00:06:09.220

I can't put my finger on the answer to that very clearly, other than the fact that just by a gradual and almost imperceptible process, I became acquainted with or interested in or had contact with Christianity in various forms. Principally I suspect it was through public school religion,

00:06:10.100 - 00:06:45.640

which meant that because I was incarcerated in a boarding school from the age of 8 until I left age 19, it could not but rub off on you that the environment was one in which there was a claim or a veneer of Christian ethos and Christian values. Was it Catholic?

00:06:45.920 - 00:07:11.900

No, no, no, no, I'm an Anglican. But that term really didn't mean very much to me until the latter part of my school days, if at all. I only began to identify with Anglicanism and Anglican values right towards the end of my school days and early and soon thereafter when I began to explore the Christian faith

00:07:11.900 - 00:07:36.040

beyond the context of what had been possible in a school environment. I really rebelled against religion actually at school, although I clearly had been given something to rebel against. But that was part of the adolescent rebellion against everything and everybody, I suspect,

00:07:36.280 - 00:07:54.380

because the rebellion didn't last very long. I was won over or returned to an interest in Christianity, but nobody's ever made any effort to make me into a Christian or to overtly teach me any form of Christianity, for which I'm immensely grateful.

00:07:54.840 - 00:08:11.800

I've been able to discover in my own way, in my own pace, what it is that drew me to an interest in Christianity. But I think one of the formative factors, in fact, alongside the regular diet of public school religion worship

00:08:12.800 - 00:08:44.700

and the opportunity which I did take to help a bit in religious services and chapel was my interest in politics, which I soon began to see was articulated by people much older than me in places such as southern Africa, where I became aware of the struggle against apartheid and having been brought up in a country, Nigeria,

00:08:44.940 - 00:09:13.320

where I never thought for a moment that there was any difference, essentially, between the people I played with and became friends with of my own age and myself, although there clearly were, in retrospect, many differences of class and income and status at the age that I had all my friends that I can remember,

00:09:13.440 - 00:09:32.580

with the exception of half a dozen that the very most were black. I was taught respect for people regardless of their colour from the outset, or at least, if not deliberately taught respect, I soon found that it was the natural thing to do,

00:09:32.760 - 00:09:50.480

to play with a person who was black, statistically speaking, far more than it was to play with a person who was white, because there simply weren't white people of my own age to play with. So the shock of going to a culture, namely southern Africa,

00:09:51.160 - 00:10:08.660

or South Africa, in which I spent a considerable amount of time, although I was never officially resident there, was one in which I was simply appalled at the horrible, grotesque and repulsive degree of racism and contempt for black people

00:10:08.660 - 00:10:33.600

that I encountered for the first time as a 15 or 16-year-old, I think, when I first went to southern Africa, after a gap of only three or four years from when I was regularly in contact with black Nigerians. And I reacted very negatively against what I experienced far too frequently

00:10:33.600 - 00:10:46.060

at the hands of white people in southern Africa, which was their racism. I just found it wholly and utterly repugnant, and I began to wonder why this should be,

00:10:46.660 - 00:11:11.060

what, if anything, was being done, who was resisting, how one could resist against something as contrary to the belief that all were created equal and should be treated accordingly. So that drove me to read around the lives and the political movements

00:11:11.060 - 00:11:32.280

that were taking place in the 1970s, particularly in the late 60s in South Africa, which of course then was in the throes of being run by a white supremacist government whose ideological foundation was Calvinism

00:11:32.860 - 00:11:52.260

and the tradition of the Dutch Reformed Church, which had been taken to southern Africa by some of the original Dutch settlers. So I became very aware that there were Christians who thought that apartheid was an inevitable right, just and fair,

00:11:52.600 - 00:12:13.180

and I became aware of other Christians who thought the total opposite. And it was the lives and the arguments, the witness of those who were challenging apartheid in southern Africa, who were Christian, that gave me a sense that there were good Christians

00:12:13.180 - 00:12:31.580

with whom I could readily ally myself without becoming thought of as an apologist for a Christian faith, which I found totally unacceptable, which was the Dutch Reformed Church's interpretation of Christianity

00:12:31.580 - 00:12:53.360

and how to use and interpret the Bible and Christian tradition. So it was people like Alan Payton and Arnold de Tully and the Kairos Institute and many very strong Christian leaders who were predominantly Anglican in southern Africa, Trevor Huddleston being another,

00:12:53.940 - 00:13:12.560

who risked everything, including their lives, to try and dismantle the edifice that was apartheid, which of course remained in place for another 25 years. So could this mark the beginning, I mean you were 15 at the time you said,

00:13:13.080 - 00:13:34.380

the beginning of your interest in campaigning? Yes, I identify it in so far as having had no awareness of being gay when I was in Nigeria, although I was aware of an attraction to people of the same gender even at my own age. Even at eight?

00:13:34.380 - 00:13:53.440

Oh yes, long before that, or even before that, yes. The first boy I ever had what we'd call same-sex with, although not, we didn't use words like gay, it was an American boy actually, from an American family working in Nigeria.

00:13:56.100 - 00:14:27.180

But I had good reason to rebel against racism, and even more to rebel against the idea that it could be justified in the name of Christianity. So that when I began to emerge as a gay man in my early twenties, with at first a faltering and rather unsure level of self-acceptance,

00:14:27.900 - 00:14:52.980

I don't think it took a great leap of the imagination to realise, as I by then made a commitment to train for the ministry of the Church of England, and had been accepted as a prospective clergyman and ordinand, that there had to be a lot of intellectual work done by myself to square the circle,

00:14:53.700 - 00:15:21.640

which was that I felt as Christian as every other of those that I found myself training with, but my sexual orientation was at variance with the majority, although I was certainly not the only one of my theological college at the time who was gay. But we were clearly part of an institution whose outward appearance and official policies

00:15:21.640 - 00:15:41.360

were what we call now deeply homophobic, and that was clearly unsatisfactory. If you were going to make a commitment to an ideology or a faith which had it in for you, and had devised various means, some of which were very insidious,

00:15:41.360 - 00:16:07.820

and others which were pretty crude, to try and keep you in line, and if not make you into a heterosexual, at least make you into a silent and invisible homosexual. And I didn't find the attraction of being invisible or silent at all compelling, therefore I was becoming increasingly unsilent and increasingly more vocal.

00:16:07.820 - 00:16:28.700

Did you stay within the ministry? Were you allowed to at that time? Or were you just studying to be in the ministry? No, we were, many of us, many, I would say more than 50% were some of the theological colleges, and the early 70s had 90% of their intake who were gay.

00:16:29.480 - 00:16:53.940

The one I went to, we had about 40% who were gay, and that was 40% of the next generation of clergy, and the cumulative statistical impact of that on the church would clearly be felt over time, if they stayed within the church and didn't either choose to leave it,

00:16:54.340 - 00:17:15.940

because they found it so unpalatable, or if they weren't forced out of it because their employers became intolerant or unaccepting of the presence of people who were gay. And the whole terms of engagement were altering in the 70s,

00:17:16.020 - 00:17:42.680

because gay liberation was having an impact on British society, which inevitably was felt even within the churches. So some of us began to identify with that then predominantly secular movement towards creating equality, although we would like to think we did bring to it insights from the Christian faith theologically,

00:17:43.580 - 00:18:15.920

to stand alongside those who owed no allegiance to Christianity, but owed total allegiance to the concept of equality and queer rights. So you realized early on that you were gay, or at least not fitting the norm of male-female, but when would you say the story of your coming out, when would you say you actually came out?

00:18:15.920 - 00:18:44.040

You realized so early, I know it's very different, because it can take a lifetime to come out. Yes, well I'm glad I didn't have that disadvantage. There's so much that can be said obviously, because uniquely, through a set of circumstances which I certainly could not have foreseen,

00:18:44.040 - 00:19:15.840

but clearly I was a willing participant for the most part. It was only eight years after being selected as a potential clergyman in the Church of England, that having spent four years trading, and then three years in parishes, that I ended up, and those three years working for the Church of England officially,

00:19:16.980 - 00:19:49.280

that I applied for a job which was for working for the gay Christian movement, which had been formed in 1976, which was about 18 months before I needed to look for another job, having been declared unsuitable by the Church of England for further employment, because I was becoming vocal and unprepared to play the game of pretending to be somebody that I wasn't,

00:19:50.620 - 00:20:11.660

which the powers that be thought they could probably live with, so long as they managed to mould me into the shape they'd successfully moulded all previous gay ordinands or gay curates or gay vicars into, namely people who kept their sexuality entirely to themselves,

00:20:12.040 - 00:20:36.360

or shared very circumspectly with a carefully controlled and totally trusted group, an inner friendship circle, and I saw no need to do either of those. Having learnt that black people couldn't carry favour by pretending to be white, I wasn't going to start carrying favour with heterosexuals by pretending to be heterosexual.

00:20:36.900 - 00:20:43.680

No, no, and that's what the Church was trying to make you do? Yes. Even though they knew in the beginning? Oh yes, yes, yes.

00:20:43.700 - 00:21:02.020

But they thought they could change you? Yes, well that's what they've done for 2,000 years. I mean it's only since the 60s, 70s that any institution has really had to deal with the phenomenon which is historically unprecedented of people saying,

00:21:02.140 - 00:21:23.040

no, stuff your rules, stuff your regulations, stuff your demands, you've got to learn to live with me on my terms. I'll take what I want from the institution and my culture, my history, my family, and what I consider to be good and healthy and righteous,

00:21:23.040 - 00:21:53.900

and I will reject all that I consider to be unhealthy and spiritually damaging. So the Church, just as teachers, the teaching profession is just as bad as the Church to this day. I mean you can count more out clergy than you can out teachers, and yet teaching is upheld to be an environment in which you flourish and learn,

00:21:54.700 - 00:22:10.100

and in which you can be yourself, and the whole point of education we're told is to encourage people to flourish, but the minute anybody flourishes in a way which is deemed to be socially unacceptable, in other words coming out as lesbian or gay or bi or transsexual,

00:22:10.240 - 00:22:25.980

then the whole institution has a way of telling you you're unwelcome, and the very least you should do is shut up, and probably the best thing to do if you know what's good for you is to leave, because you'll cause us fewer problems and you'll probably cause yourself fewer if you decide to leave.

00:22:26.260 - 00:22:49.820

So I don't single the Church out for being particularly obnoxious in the way it deals with gay people, but I do think it has a particular reason for not treating people in a discriminatory and unreasonable manner, but it in fact does the very opposite. It goes to extraordinary lengths to try and on the one hand say we love you,

00:22:50.000 - 00:23:09.500

but on the other hand say that we hate you in reality, and it's the hate which often wins out in the life of the Church, because it hasn't learnt how to love all irrespective of sexual orientation, and despite many protestations that it is not a homophobic institution,

00:23:09.500 - 00:23:27.700

it is at its very core, I think, profoundly homophobic. Are you talking present as well? Oh yes, I'm talking present. I think it's become more determinedly homophobic. It's homophobia in past generations has been passive.

00:23:29.060 - 00:24:05.120

It's been more or less just a second thought. It's just been able to take any sense of self-worth out of gay people long before they even knew that they were gay. So the sublimation and the denial was that deep and lasted an entire lifetime in almost all cases. But the Church as an institution, since its leaders have felt it's had to defend itself against the charge that it was,

00:24:05.680 - 00:24:32.720

in part if not even significantly homosexual, because of the type of people it recruited and was using and was happy to use, it's put a huge amount of effort into trying to silence dissent. And where it's not been able to win the argument by rational discourse,

00:24:32.900 - 00:24:57.800

it has resorted to seeking legal justification to do so, which is why in the late 1990s the Church, led by the Church of England in Britain, sought and disgracefully in my opinion was granted dispensations, concessions, opt-outs from key equalities, anti-discrimination and employment legislation,

00:24:58.040 - 00:25:24.500

which has had the effect that in 2014, for instance, gay people and lesbian people in faith communities have far fewer rights than they had before the so-called arrival of equalities legislation in Britain. This is a fact which many people tend to overlook and ignore and are not aware of,

00:25:25.020 - 00:25:45.680

because until the Church invokes its legal entitlements to discriminate, you think you're never going to be on the receiving end of being told that you can't live the type of life you wish to, not just in the name of Christianity but in the name of the law of the land.

00:25:46.260 - 00:26:09.580

And the law of the land now permits the Churches and all faith groups to discriminate quite blatantly and brazenly on grounds of sexual orientation. I think that is as great an iniquity as apartheid, and it's one which Christians and many people in the gay rights movement

00:26:09.580 - 00:26:30.200

and many lobbying organisations don't wish to address. It's too problematic for them. And there are people who don't have to go very far without seeing stories in the newspapers of people whose lives have been blighted by the fact

00:26:30.200 - 00:26:48.580

that the Churches now have a legal entitlement to discriminate, whereas it was very unclear whether or not if they'd overtly discriminated in the past, they'd have simply been enforcing Church teaching, against which you might have stood next to no chance of being victorious

00:26:48.580 - 00:27:10.000

if you attempted to sue or to seek redress legally. But now it's very clear that in certain circumstances if the Church doesn't want to hire you or wants to fire you or wants to deny you the opportunity to seek a change of employment on equal terms

00:27:10.000 - 00:27:25.060

with anybody else who might be wishing to apply for a job, then you are ipso facto, by being gay, at a disadvantage because you would either have to prove that you are not a practising homosexual, you don't want to be one,

00:27:25.060 - 00:27:46.240

or if you were, you've repented of that period in your life where you were in one. It is absolutely frightful what the Church has done. It's closed all its loopholes, not just by refining and making clear its own abhorrence for gay people,

00:27:46.760 - 00:28:02.140

most particularly those who are in same-sex relationships, but it has managed to obtain opt-outs from the law of the land which apply to everybody else other than those in faith groups. What do you think of the American, I know it originated in America, but the MCC?

00:28:03.480 - 00:28:21.520

Do you think they've made their own rules or have they changed it a bit? Being, one, not an outsider anymore, but not being that knowledgeable of the background. In Britain. In Britain, even in America. I learned about MCC over here.

00:28:21.520 - 00:28:35.760

Oh, did you? Well, I've been aware of MCC from the earliest days. I met Troy Perry way back in 1971, 72, 73, I think. It might have been a bit later than that. But I've never been a member of MCC

00:28:35.760 - 00:28:56.480

and I don't think that MCC is the answer to the Church's problems. I understand that there is a need for something called the MCC and its existence is an indictment on all the other churches who've made MCC necessary in the eyes of some.

00:28:56.860 - 00:29:15.980

But I happen to believe that if you wish to change the dominant ethos and values and direction of policy of the mainstream churches, you have to stay in the mainstream churches because the MCC is essentially an irrelevance in Britain statistically

00:29:15.980 - 00:29:33.260

and in terms of its culture. It will not ever have an impact or win arguments on the scale and at the depth which matter if you're going to effectively dismantle institutional faith-based homophobia.

00:29:33.660 - 00:29:50.260

It provides a sanctuary and a safe place for those who have either never been a part of a mainstream church or have been and no longer wish to be or who look at the mainstream churches

00:29:50.260 - 00:30:12.700

and think that they are hotbeds of heterosexual prejudice and patronising contraception. I understand all the reasons why some people find MCC a comfortable and helpful place to be themselves

00:30:12.700 - 00:30:27.380

and to follow Christ. But in terms of what I consider to be most important which is structurally altering the churches so that they can no longer obtain state resources

00:30:27.380 - 00:30:40.740

or the backing of the state's laws to discriminate then I prefer to put my energies and when I was the chief executive of the lesbian and gay Christian movement which I was for 30 years

00:30:40.740 - 00:30:59.880

we put our energy into trying to ensure that the mainstream churches to whom 99.99% of the population belong in one form or another and for whom the media consider to be the manifestations of Christianity for the most part in the British Isles

00:31:01.280 - 00:31:22.200

it's important that those bodies are challenged repeatedly because they employ 35,000 or 40,000 people depending on how many you include and the state through various ways puts a whole host of money in their direction

00:31:22.200 - 00:31:39.100

directly or indirectly through granting charitable status almost by right and entitlement. So the MCC for me, it's never held a personal attraction although I've always worked with the MCC

00:31:39.100 - 00:31:54.460

so far as it seemed to be compatible with the overriding objective of the lesbian and gay Christian movement which was to effect change theologically and politically where it mattered most

00:31:55.100 - 00:32:10.180

which was where the power resided in British Christianity. Yeah, interesting. Go backtracking a little bit when I know you said you realised

00:32:10.180 - 00:32:22.300

Are you alright for water? that you realised and came out pretty early and all that how about within the family? Were you able to open up with your family?

00:32:23.080 - 00:32:47.060

Well, I chose to open up after about a year of exploring my sexuality as an adult which took place principally in my first year at a theological college where I happened to meet a person who I intended

00:32:47.060 - 00:32:59.540

and he intended to be a lifetime partner with and because the experience of his loving me and my loving him and being amongst others of a similar age

00:32:59.540 - 00:33:18.440

who supported us totally as we were learning to be lovers and learning to be prospective clergy in the Church of England I didn't feel that there was any need to

00:33:18.440 - 00:33:30.360

or any shame, any need to be silent about or any need to be ashamed of the existence of Michael or the existence of Michael in my life so I told my mother

00:33:30.360 - 00:33:38.820

after about a year of being in a relationship with Michael I told my father and stepmother who by that time were back in Africa a short while afterwards

00:33:39.800 - 00:33:58.260

My mother's initial reaction was not very encouraging but it so happened that without it having been planned on the occasion that I'd said to myself whatever my mother's doing on that day at that time

00:33:58.260 - 00:34:10.720

at the beginning of my college holidays I was going to tell her I didn't want to lead a double life any longer I must have been probably 20 at that stage I told my mother

00:34:10.720 - 00:34:29.560

but she was in the presence fortuitously of a friend of hers who was a Samaritan who, if you're familiar with Samaritans in this country is an agency that takes telephone calls

00:34:29.560 - 00:34:41.240

essentially from anybody on any issue and offers a sympathetic ear to them and was set up, as it happens, by an Anglican clergyman in the early 1950s

00:34:41.240 - 00:34:54.300

who was absolutely appalled about a young woman taking her own life because of her period pains and who was unable to find anybody who would explain to her or accept that what was happening to her was natural

00:34:54.300 - 00:35:05.840

so she committed suicide and the clergyman in question who knew about what had happened and why this young girl had committed suicide

00:35:05.840 - 00:35:16.820

set up the Samaritans but by the by, the presence of the Samaritan with my mother at the same time, who I also knew enabled my mother to

00:35:19.120 - 00:35:27.900

to take some comfort and receive some comfort from her friend because once I'd said to my mother something she ought to know there was really very little I could

00:35:27.900 - 00:35:44.500

yeah, yeah so she was, my mother was shocked, unprepared for and there was no reason why she should have been either unshocked

00:35:44.500 - 00:35:56.560

or prepared, particularly for what I told her but having said what I did I really had no more reason to

00:35:56.560 - 00:36:07.160

or need to speak because the person who was present was my mother and was able to say all the things that I would have said because she was a non-judgmental

00:36:07.800 - 00:36:16.940

and trained and compassionate counsellor oh, so the Samaritan was supportive yeah, very supportive if she'd been a Samaritan or not

00:36:16.940 - 00:36:28.160

even though she wasn't on duty as a Samaritan she'd have been clearly acting out of the character that Samaritans were expected to act and believe, which was total acceptance

00:36:37.580 - 00:36:50.060

so I didn't say very much for the rest of that evening and although my mother was in tears and completely confused and distressed about what I had told her

00:36:52.500 - 00:37:01.780

she was calmed down and some of the realities of life that she obviously needed to come to terms with quite rapidly were passed on to her

00:37:01.780 - 00:37:10.180

and accepted because they didn't come from me but they came from somebody of her own generation who was also a mother

00:37:10.180 - 00:37:20.660

and had sons one of which or a son whom I was friendly with so my mother, it was very fortunate

00:37:20.660 - 00:37:29.740

my mother was not on her own when I told her I would have gone and told her if she had been on her own

00:37:29.740 - 00:37:42.300

but I didn't stop telling my mother what I'd set out to say simply because she wasn't on her own so she came around after a while

00:37:42.300 - 00:37:53.100

she came around after some years she's still alive, she's 91 and I'm probably her best friend now so I've had a very good relationship with her

00:37:53.780 - 00:38:04.300

over the years a very good relationship I've been able to identify with some of the difficulties the dilemmas of her life

00:38:04.300 - 00:38:15.240

which hasn't been straightforward or easy in many respects and she's been able to identify with some of mine which has not been entirely straightforward

00:38:25.880 - 00:38:37.760

My father, I told a short while after that he was never reconciled to it until his death well, even up to his death he was not reconciled to my being gay

00:38:37.760 - 00:38:52.480

and I rarely ceased to have any meaningful relationship with him from the point that I told him I was gay I thought that was very regrettable, very sad but it was his decision

00:38:52.480 - 00:39:09.680

and most of my friends experienced, and older and more experienced people than I just said, don't let it worry you he set his mind on rejecting you

00:39:09.680 - 00:39:24.960

and he'll probably never come around you can try as hard as you like which I, and I did for several years but after being rejected time and time and time again

00:39:24.960 - 00:39:42.860

I just said, well, I'm not going to let him his inability to accept his son in a humane or realistic way I wasn't going to let that hang over me

00:39:43.420 - 00:39:57.780

and my mother more or less came to the same conclusion she tried, although they were divorced they still remained friends of sorts she tried to get him to become a human being who didn't reject his offspring

00:39:58.320 - 00:40:13.760

but he chose not to take any notice of her or other people who prevailed upon him not to maintain his hostility to his death towards me but it was his loss he could have had a very good relationship with me

00:40:13.760 - 00:40:28.160

just as I've had a very good, continue to have a very good relationship with my mother but he was of a mindset which considered everything and anything homosexual to be utterly and totally although he wasn't a Christian

00:40:29.880 - 00:40:44.040

he accused me of all sorts of completely irrational things like undermining the monarchy and the empire and law and order by being gay so once you begin at that point you've really got pretty much of a challenge

00:40:44.040 - 00:40:57.580

a pretty huge challenge on your hands the children he produced, I'm glad to say once they realised their significant elder brother was gay made it clear they had no problems with me

00:40:57.580 - 00:41:19.200

so the generation that he undermined and that his second wave of children didn't inherit their father's homophobia although they're very absent and far removed geographically but you're still in contact?

00:41:19.340 - 00:41:30.760

just tangentially well the oldest of my father's second marriages children I have the closest relationship with she lives in Egypt

00:41:30.760 - 00:41:46.260

she's 15, 16 years older than me I think so we live four and a half separate lives but I do know that the two daughters and one son

00:41:47.440 - 00:42:09.080

who my father had relatively later in life haven't become standard bearers of their father's prejudices moving ahead again you didn't start what it was at the time GCM

00:42:09.080 - 00:42:32.880

the LGCM, but you joined them within the year they started? well I was one of a group of people it's a very long time ago the first entity, the first phenomenon that hit the public's consciousness

00:42:32.880 - 00:42:57.700

that things were changing after the reform of the sexual offences act which created a semblance of fairness towards gay people in 1967, although it did not, absolutely did not fully decriminalise homosexuality

00:42:59.100 - 00:43:12.960

a mistake often made by commentators and historians who say that homosexuality was decriminalised in 1967 it was only partially decriminalised and a lot of people remained criminals in the eyes of the law

00:43:12.960 - 00:43:28.660

if they were gay right until the early part of the current century and you're speaking of Britain I'm speaking of Britain rather complex to speak of the whole globe

00:43:28.660 - 00:43:49.600

in any comprehensible manner so the 1967 sexual offences act partially decriminalised homosexuality and very soon thereafter, thanks to the Gay Liberation Front and the ideas that began principally in America

00:43:49.600 - 00:44:00.800

were brought over here and the press tagged on to the fact that something which gave them good copy and a chance to talk about sex

00:44:01.480 - 00:44:17.120

from either a disinterested but benevolent point of view or from a hostile and aggressively prejudiced point of view began to get a lot of coverage so people, they had half their mind

00:44:17.120 - 00:44:31.980

began to wonder which side of the argument they'd like to be on whether gay liberation or all it stood for or was thought to stand for, portrayed as standing for was something they welcomed or which they'd applaud

00:44:35.020 - 00:44:52.320

clearly, unless you were a deeply self-loathing gay person gay liberation was something you would at least be interested in even if you felt you couldn't afford to be publicly associated with you might even have ideological reasons for thinking you didn't really welcome it

00:44:52.320 - 00:45:06.860

because it shone a spotlight on a part of your life or your very being which you'd got rather used to nobody noticing other than the people you wanted to notice and the ways that you wanted to interact and socialise

00:45:06.860 - 00:45:39.000

so I couldn't but help to try and understand for myself what GLF meant for me and for wider society and the Christian faith The Gay Liberation Front, GLF very potent symbols and letters which struck home deep into the psyche of people

00:45:39.000 - 00:46:06.300

who were susceptible to the ideology, the ideas of the Gay Liberation Front but some of us in Christian contexts and Christian environments were asking questions about where does Christianity relate to the Gay Liberation Front the ideas of equality and removing patriarchy and heterosexual power and normativity

00:46:06.300 - 00:46:30.840

we were challenged by GLF and thank goodness we were otherwise a Christian theology of same-sex relationships and same-sex loving would have been even longer in appearing and would have been even more delayed so I think GLF should be given credit for acting as a catalyst

00:46:30.840 - 00:46:58.600

not just within secular environments but also within Christian circles so those of us who were open to new ideas and receptive to seeing how an ideology which basically said queer is as good as straight to use common parlance, we had to work out how we react as Christians

00:47:00.160 - 00:47:18.480

let alone whether we were gay or lesbian ourselves so we became networked, we began to relax, we weren't the only people there were people in this college and that college and this place and amongst reforming and progressive Christian organisations

00:47:19.880 - 00:47:47.300

who were busy looking at other issues of justice around race and trade and income distribution and poverty and housing and so on we began to network and realised that it would be in our common interest to form alliances if pre-existing liberation organisations were open to forming alliances

00:47:47.300 - 00:48:14.840

and if they weren't then it would seem good sense, notwithstanding that to have an organisation devoted specifically to looking at the theology of same-sex relationships and the implications for that on the lives of the institution of which we were likely to be very much a part within a matter of weeks, months, years

00:48:17.000 - 00:48:43.820

so to cut a long story short, the gay Christian movement came into existence it was formed just within a mile or so from here, its first meetings were held in the city at Aldgate its inaugural meeting was held in Aldgate and its first planning meetings were held at a church in the city, Orsaints, Margaret Street

00:48:45.460 - 00:49:07.760

but it became associated with a church in the city called Aldgate where we eventually had an office but my time as initially a licensed lay worker and then as a curate working in a church parish in Hertfordshire came to, as I explained earlier, an enforced end

00:49:07.760 - 00:49:32.020

an end not of my own choosing, I was sacked essentially and told that I was no longer thought to be suitable material for the ministry of the Church of England and that I ought to find another job, well I needed to find another job they'd help me if I wanted to apply for jobs for the elderly

00:49:32.020 - 00:49:50.520

which was their way of saying this, we noticed you got on well with elderly people you liked working with elderly people, which was fine, but it wasn't actually it was just a part of what I was doing, it wasn't what I felt I had a primary vocational skills to do indefinitely for the rest of my life, so I said thank you very much

00:49:51.380 - 00:50:11.620

I'll look around for other jobs which I feel I'd be better equipped for and probably feel more fulfilled in and the job at the Gay Christian Movement came along but I had actually been part of its creation, I'd been on its committee right from the early days

00:50:11.620 - 00:50:35.860

but I resigned from being a committee member, a policy maker obviously at the point at which I applied for a job, I couldn't both be a policy maker and an employee or prospective employee, so the organisation was only 18 months old when it employed me, it had employed somebody on a part-time basis for a few months previously

00:50:35.860 - 00:51:01.540

but she'd left, and I applied for a job which thankfully was given which I was chosen for on the grand salary of £1500 per annum in those days, and it was a half-time job and I was told, well if you want to make this a full-time job

00:51:02.600 - 00:51:22.620

it's yours to do what you will with, because you'll only ever receive a wage which even in those days was far below what was necessary to live on unless you go out and raise the funds and make the organisation grow so there was a selfish incentive to make the organisation successful

00:51:22.620 - 00:51:40.900

and to lead it and enable it to grow, which it did exponentially How has it impacted the time at WCM on you and on others? What kind of impact has it had? Well I'd leave other people to talk about the impact it had on them

00:51:40.900 - 00:52:00.340

Well the impact on the church here? Well I mean enormously, if you read some of the histories about the lesbian and gay Christian movement it was phenomenal, and it's lost its way I think very unfortunately in the last 5 or 6 years and it's in a parlour state at the moment

00:52:01.900 - 00:52:23.140

but when the gay Christian movement came into existence and clearly met a very pressing need because we were overwhelmed with interest and pastorally and from people who were wanting help

00:52:23.140 - 00:52:41.340

to understand how culture was already changing and how the churches were likely to need to change in the face of this entirely new social phenomenon which was homosexuals who would be satisfied with nothing less than total equality

00:52:41.340 - 00:53:03.860

and who would go to very considerable lengths to make sure that their birthright was not denied them and that emancipation would mean what we hoped it should have always meant which was total freedom, both within the Christian family as much as outside it

00:53:03.860 - 00:53:20.240

we saw no reason why Christians who were gay or lesbian should be denied the potential to flourish and if they wish to enter into a loving same-sex relationship as those who were outside the Christian family

00:53:20.240 - 00:53:37.460

in fact we could make a case for there being much more reason why the churches should be the first to encourage and embrace loving relationships and certainly not become an impediment or to penalise those who did, as Christians, enter into same-sex relationships

00:53:37.460 - 00:53:51.640

so we were in the business of turning inside out the whole value system that the church had so within the Anglican, within the Catholic, within all Christians yes, we were entirely ecumenical and set out to be, because not least of all

00:53:51.640 - 00:54:05.560

we thought that there were absolutely no reasons to replicate the divisions of the Christian church within a lesbian or gay organisation divisions between Catholic and Protestant, Evangelical and Charismatic paled into total insignificance

00:54:05.560 - 00:54:20.560

so far as we were concerned, beside the need for the church to demonstrate unequivocally that it loved it understood human nature, first of all and because it understood it, it accepted that

00:54:21.560 - 00:54:43.140

there were people who needed to and would enter into a same-sex loving relationship which, as Christians, would try and reflect their love to one another and God's love to them so that was and remains such a profoundly radical message

00:54:43.140 - 00:55:00.660

that of course the churches acted very defensively and very aggressively towards everything we stood for and have spent the last 40 years trying to undermine and traduce us and to silence us

00:55:00.660 - 00:55:15.020

and without going into all the many occasions on which that is, they've demonstrated their contempt for us some of which is documented most of which there was never the time or the resources to document

00:55:16.400 - 00:55:33.360

because daily at my job I was dealing with prejudice and discrimination sanctioned and initiated by the institution which of course made it very much more important that we remained defiant and as strong as we could be

00:55:33.360 - 00:55:50.140

in the face of an enormous amount of institutional hatred I don't know the history at all Do you think you were successful in reaching inside? Well we were certainly successful in upsetting the status quo

00:55:50.140 - 00:56:08.980

to an extent because nobody could, by the time my 30 years for the organisation left nobody who was an informed Christian could have possibly been under any illusion but that there were people

00:56:08.980 - 00:56:27.300

who were known to be and willingly known to be as gay and lesbian Christians because with so much of the debate in the 80s and 90s particularly when the church was in, or Christianity was in the newspapers or on the airways it was predominantly in relation

00:56:27.300 - 00:56:44.280

to the question of sexuality and sexual orientation we generated a fantastic amount of media coverage which led to our having more coverage than organisations that employed 400 people

00:56:45.200 - 00:56:59.420

and we employed one and a half we were driving the news agenda when it came to Christian issues time and time again because it brought together it was actually a very easy thing to do

00:56:59.420 - 00:57:12.620

once you had the nerve to say that you had a message to convey and you were articulate enough and determined enough to take as much opportunity as you can that were provided to you it doesn't require a great deal of intelligence to work out

00:57:12.620 - 00:57:28.740

that because our message was part political part sexual and part religious those three issues together are invariably volatile and can cause incendiary debates

00:57:28.740 - 00:57:44.100

and strong passions to be heard for and against the political implications, the implications sexually and the consequences in terms of religion so we had a winning formula because we were never afraid

00:57:44.100 - 00:58:01.340

to mix all three together in whatever mix we thought was appropriate to advance our principal case which was Christianity is at fault it is doing damage and harm to people's lives

00:58:01.340 - 00:58:16.160

there's no need for it to do so there's certainly no justification for it to do so and here's how it can stop being a damaging and harmful institution not a message which an institution wishes to hear said of itself

00:58:16.160 - 00:58:31.200

but one in which more and more people began to believe we were right to be saying and needed to be said which is why the organisation had as much influence and drew as many people into its membership

00:58:32.040 - 00:58:49.060

as it was able to do phenomenal, phenomenal impact because of our ability to use the media and to repeat time and time again

00:58:49.060 - 00:59:00.000

a very simple message but one which had not hitherto been heard and thanks to the media's interest which was generally one of being sympathetic

00:59:00.000 - 00:59:16.460

although they had to be as objective and impartial in almost all their coverage as their code of ethics and professionalism required but it was one which met an increasingly receptive audience

00:59:17.460 - 00:59:29.600

taking the British public at large but an increasingly hostile one within the Church which really got worried and perturbed about how often our arguments were being aired

00:59:29.600 - 00:59:45.000

and how much support they were attracting because what the Church has done in the last 40 years is reiterate an increasingly untenable, unconvincing traditional line which doesn't wash for anybody

00:59:45.000 - 01:00:06.040

other than the tiny percentage who control policy at the top who are a very worried group of deeply inadequate leaders in my view, who have been promoted way beyond their ability but have got there because their principal gift

01:00:06.040 - 01:00:20.900

has been one of defending the institution against any criticism rather than leading an institution to respond to credible and convincing critiques

01:00:20.900 - 01:00:34.960

of its shortcomings which if the Churches had changed their policy in response to the clamour for change which has come from all sorts of quarters

01:00:34.960 - 01:00:43.700

for a generation now then it wouldn't be on its back foot in relation to the gay issue and it's perceived rightly but sadly

01:00:43.700 - 01:00:54.780

to be the enemy now by almost every gay person in the country or an irrelevance and it needn't have become

01:00:54.780 - 01:01:07.280

neither of which is necessary for it to have become it need not have become perceived as the enemy and it need not have become an irrelevance but the institution has ensured

01:01:07.280 - 01:01:18.200

that it has become both because it has not responded to the clamour for justice and equality and fairness in the name of a faith

01:01:18.200 - 01:01:29.860

which proclaims that all are created equal but in reality fails to see us as equal in the eyes of God It's a very simple theological case

01:01:29.860 - 01:01:41.600

very simple idea one which all but those with hang-ups over sexuality or who are too high bound to even concede that theology evolves

01:01:42.900 - 01:01:52.540

which of course they all know in their hearts it always has done and always will do the only people who resist it are frankly the ones

01:01:54.060 - 01:02:07.860

who have got the most to lose ultimately and they are destroying our churches in my view by failing to respond I'd better just deal with that

01:02:07.860 - 01:02:17.560

OK, that's alright So one question I had Yeah, you should ask me more In your time at LGCM

01:02:17.560 - 01:02:26.020

now it's starting out as GCM was it strictly lesbians and gay men or did it incorporate bi and trans people? Oh yes, everybody

01:02:26.020 - 01:02:39.680

We were the prototype inclusive community I've always said that if anybody wanted to look at how a bunch of Christians could demonstrate

01:02:41.660 - 01:02:54.280

given the mental outlook that we were not going to start discriminating having come into existence because we knew what it was like

01:02:54.280 - 01:03:05.460

to be discriminated against so we've always done everything we could to welcome all irrespective of all the distinctions and identities and labels

01:03:06.520 - 01:03:16.600

that people with varying degrees want to have, need to have are given, flourish within I've never been one that's unhappy with labels

01:03:16.600 - 01:03:26.240

I don't like people who go around saying oh I don't want to label myself well frankly they probably do most of the time but they're happy to label themselves

01:03:26.240 - 01:03:32.880

when it's convenient and easy and provides rewards to do so when it's a bit more challenging when you don't know what the results are going to be

01:03:32.880 - 01:03:40.840

and you're a bit fearful then you might so come up with this variant which is well I don't like to be labelled except when it suits me

01:03:40.840 - 01:03:50.940

or I'll label myself except when it doesn't suit me which doesn't seem to be a very credible position to adopt which is why we've never asked questions

01:03:50.940 - 01:03:59.820

about denomination, gender age even sexual identity we've had lots of heterosexual members

01:03:59.820 - 01:04:07.460

we always stress that we welcome heterosexuals are welcome on exactly equal terms although the reasons why

01:04:07.460 - 01:04:14.700

we retained and would have fought to retain I think the identity of the name

01:04:14.700 - 01:04:23.500

the vocabulary of lesbian and gay was that it was out of that particular experience that the organisation came into existence

01:04:23.500 - 01:04:31.940

and our heterosexual members never tried to swamp us by imposing a heterosexual view

01:04:31.940 - 01:04:39.520

or heterosexual values on us so we never really confronted with the need to change the organisation

01:04:39.520 - 01:04:48.000

into the inclusive Christian community which of course some might have chosen to do because what we were trying to say what I hope it still tries to say

01:04:48.000 - 01:04:56.240

is we if you want to look at a Christian community of the future look and what it might look like

01:04:56.240 - 01:05:04.020

look at us but of course that was too hard a message for most Christians to accept because what they would in fact have found

01:05:04.020 - 01:05:10.840

at least superficially at least well very importantly but might not have seen beyond

01:05:10.840 - 01:05:18.900

the fact that most of us are lesbian or gay, what they wouldn't have been able to be reconciled with or to

01:05:18.900 - 01:05:27.000

would have found difficulty to encounter initially would have been the fact that most of us didn't care less

01:05:27.000 - 01:05:34.340

about what your sexual orientation was just so long as those of us who were lesbian or gay or bisexual

01:05:36.500 - 01:05:41.020

wouldn't be disadvantaged but we didn't wish to see anybody else disadvantaged

01:05:41.020 - 01:05:49.760

at the same time which is why when I was an employee I was answerable from time to time to a heterosexual chair

01:05:49.760 - 01:05:57.580

or heterosexual members of our board I'm very happy to be so because I knew those people wouldn't have joined and made a

01:05:57.580 - 01:06:05.460

commitment publicly to a lesbian or gay led organisation or identified organisation unless they'd been very happy being colleagues

01:06:05.460 - 01:06:13.500

on equal terms True I know earlier you said how the church even today

01:06:13.500 - 01:06:20.020

is still not accepted Oh no, it's very unaccepting That's what I mean

01:06:20.020 - 01:06:28.560

It's very hostile, extremely hostile so much so that of course the church has suffered greatly numerically in terms of its public prestige and standing

01:06:28.560 - 01:06:36.460

it's become the laughing stock, the object of ridicule and contempt amongst most people because of its oppositions

01:06:36.460 - 01:06:44.980

to gay and lesbian people Most intelligent people even if they're not Christians cannot comprehend

01:06:44.980 - 01:06:53.020

of an institution now in the 21st century which is to be seen to be a persecuting church

01:06:54.020 - 01:07:01.300

What sense does it make? If you want to attract people to

01:07:02.100 - 01:07:08.960

insist and do so categorically that gay people are not equal

01:07:08.960 - 01:07:17.420

and that is what the churches are saying What are your hopes for the future regarding LGBTQ society?

01:07:17.680 - 01:07:25.180

In terms of this the churches and faith groups although I've used the word churches, it's for convenience

01:07:25.180 - 01:07:31.680

I think all faith groups are more or less equally culpable and all are

01:07:34.620 - 01:07:40.560

all need to be held to account for their unwillingness to

01:07:40.560 - 01:07:49.180

embrace unconditionally the whole human race or if conditionally

01:07:49.180 - 01:07:56.460

at least to do so in the same terms as those who are thought to be or pretend to be or

01:07:56.460 - 01:08:04.100

claim to be heterosexual I don't think it's a healthy I don't think faith groups are

01:08:04.100 - 01:08:16.160

in a healthy position at all largely because they have cornered themselves they've

01:08:16.160 - 01:08:24.420

positioned themselves where in such a way as the wider society now equates Christianity with gay hatred

01:08:27.400 - 01:08:34.540

so from an evangelical point of view to throw your arms

01:08:34.540 - 01:08:42.480

open as a church leader and say you are welcome is met with ribald laughter and guffaws of

01:08:42.480 - 01:08:50.400

disbelief because of course for 30, 40 years people have seen time and time

01:08:50.400 - 01:08:57.400

and time and time again how untrue that claim is do you think we've made some headway

01:08:58.220 - 01:09:06.020

since you started? only in exposing only in making clear what was hitherto

01:09:08.660 - 01:09:16.480

just a way of doing things which nobody was challenging if we'd not

01:09:16.480 - 01:09:24.760

come into existence the church would still be discriminating and persecuting and it would be but it would be doing so in a way

01:09:24.760 - 01:09:32.980

which was even more brutal and was even more extreme

01:09:34.980 - 01:09:45.060

and of course the whole ex-gay phenomenon is a manifestation of the lengths to which Christian churches

01:09:45.060 - 01:09:52.620

are prepared to go and even the so-called mainstream middle-of-the-road churches in Britain

01:09:53.840 - 01:09:59.380

who eschewed and never officially or publicly embraced the ex-gay movement

01:10:00.360 - 01:10:08.400

would still have a sympathy for the ex-gay concept even if they

01:10:08.400 - 01:10:15.420

couldn't quite bring themselves to be officially recommending them which was a wholly dishonest position of course

01:10:15.420 - 01:10:23.060

either you don't believe in the ex-gay myth or you do and you should

01:10:23.060 - 01:10:30.240

not try and hedge your bets as so many in this institution have done by saying to you perhaps you'll consider

01:10:30.240 - 01:10:39.440

are you really gay do you think there's an alternative which is in a milder form

01:10:39.440 - 01:10:46.800

what the ex-gay movement begins by saying until it gets you in its clutches and tries to electrocute you and

01:10:47.400 - 01:10:55.200

drive you to your death or seduce you as a lot of the ex-gay leaders were only too proficient in

01:10:55.200 - 01:11:03.300

doing on the grounds that you needed a bit of same-sex loving affection to overcome your desire for same-sex I mean however totally illogical could that be

01:11:03.300 - 01:11:09.900

but it was and remains the standard methodology in many of these criminal outfits True

01:11:11.400 - 01:11:18.540

OK well we've reached the end of the list is there anything you want to add? I don't know I could go on for hours

01:11:21.380 - 01:11:27.500

A definite headway has been made but do you think so? Well I only

01:11:28.200 - 01:11:36.440

headway in terms of isolating the problem but the problem has namely

01:11:36.440 - 01:11:43.900

a church which has power and influence and faith groups which are still given a wholly unjustified degree of deference

01:11:44.440 - 01:11:51.640

in some circles have now got the legal power to discriminate which they didn't have before

01:11:53.000 - 01:12:00.300

they did not have the power in law to discriminate nobody bothered to clarify the law

01:12:00.300 - 01:12:08.220

it hadn't needed the law to say whether you could or could not discriminate it was just assumed that anybody could discriminate

01:12:08.220 - 01:12:15.480

against homosexuals because homosexuals would never have would never be taken seriously in courts or would never be believed

01:12:15.480 - 01:12:25.920

or would never have the temerity or the cheek to stand up and say you're not going to treat me like that anymore but because so many gay and lesbian people came along and said

01:12:25.920 - 01:12:33.740

you are not going to treat me like that anymore if you do I shall sue you but the church has realised that to avoid being sued successfully

01:12:33.740 - 01:12:41.300

they would have to seek legal protection to discriminate which they've got which they've acquired

01:12:42.000 - 01:12:49.860

do you think the fight just continues? oh it must what do you think we need more of? the trouble is there are so few Christians

01:12:49.860 - 01:12:58.320

committed to eradicating the power and the legal privileges that the church has to discriminate

01:12:58.320 - 01:13:05.180

against gay people that unless we draw in our secular allies and unless we

01:13:05.180 - 01:13:14.740

are able to convince them that there are a sizeable number of people who are gay and lesbian

01:13:14.740 - 01:13:23.280

who they share their sexual orientation with even if not their belief system that you have to stand in solidarity with that group of oppressed people

01:13:25.080 - 01:13:32.960

even if you don't like the idea of working alongside on behalf of gay Christians you've got to do so otherwise they are going to carry on being driven

01:13:33.880 - 01:13:41.080

into a place where they have even less rights and even fewer even less security

01:13:41.080 - 01:13:49.620

even less equality and are more and more discriminated against the case of these two clergymen Jeremy Pemberton

01:13:49.620 - 01:13:57.460

and his partner who got married now finding every road that the church can block is being blocked

01:13:57.460 - 01:14:04.900

and that's all being done in the name of the law of the land the church doesn't have to say it's what we believe

01:14:04.900 - 01:14:17.700

it's what the law permits us to do but we do have some very bad

01:14:18.560 - 01:14:25.100

drafting and stonewall principally to blame

01:14:25.100 - 01:14:31.780

for this terrible state of affairs because when this was all being debated we could see this coming

01:14:32.760 - 01:14:40.680

they took no interest in protecting lesbian and gay people of faith they were only solely concerned

01:14:40.680 - 01:14:48.280

with secular people and secular values and defending the majority of people

01:14:48.280 - 01:14:55.000

who of course are not going to be directly affected by a discriminating or persecuting church but that's not the point

01:14:55.000 - 01:15:04.500

if you have a discriminating or persecuting church in a culture which claims to be committed to equality and fairness

01:15:04.500 - 01:15:12.300

there is a canker there is a cancer which has to be removed and until the churches are made to live

01:15:12.300 - 01:15:20.220

by their claim to respect all equally I believe they should be denied charitable status which is this tax break

01:15:22.020 - 01:15:28.900

we're not trying to infringe their liberty but what we are trying to do is to make sure they're not financially rewarded

01:15:28.900 - 01:15:36.420

for discriminating and since British society thankfully has got to the position of agreeing that it wishes to have

01:15:36.420 - 01:15:44.820

equality for all any institution, any body which doesn't wish all people to be treated equally

01:15:44.820 - 01:15:51.860

can continue to say that they dislike us and denounce us they don't want us to be members but they're not going to be given a tax break

01:15:52.460 - 01:16:00.520

on the back of tax payers money to do so they can raise their money without getting the break

01:16:00.520 - 01:16:08.820

which registered charities and churches automatically acquire to do so it just doesn't make sense in public policy terms

01:16:08.820 - 01:16:15.740

to be promoting equality with public money and promoting inequality with public money at the same time