00:00:00.000 - 00:00:39.600

If you could start, Cecilia, by telling me a little bit about your childhood, where, when, siblings, parents. I am the sixth of seven children. My parents are very leisurely and we had 24 years between the oldest and the youngest. Brought up Catholic and very active in the Catholic church growing up. We were one of the big parish families in Sheffield. I loved church. We had a really fantastic parish priest called Father Putman. I was part of the youth group. I read on the altar.

00:00:40.780 - 00:01:11.280

Of course, in those days, I couldn't serve on the altar because it was only altar boys. Certainly, as is now, no chance of becoming a priest. Although, from very early on, that's what I felt called to do. So, interesting. But it went all the way through the Catholic education system and that equips you very well in lots of different ways. I was talking with someone else who was brought up Catholic the other day. We were talking about going on retreat.

00:01:13.160 - 00:01:32.020

That's something that you do from being very young. You have retreat days. I didn't know that. That notion of having spiritual discipline, of taking time to be with God, all those sorts of things. Those are all good things that I learned from being brought up Catholic.

00:01:32.620 - 00:01:57.000

So, it feels to me that you had a very clear living faith as a child. Yes, absolutely. We'd have assembly and all of that. I can remember seeing a dead blackbird and wanting to say to the headteacher, could we pray for the blackbird who died? My teacher catching me and asking me where I was going because I was heading to the front and I explained.

00:01:57.000 - 00:02:22.880

She said, well, maybe we could just pray for it together, just she and I. But yes, God's always been there. Okay, great. So, involvement in church. You said you were involved with a youth group. Yes, very much so. The parish was very vibrant. There were lots of things that you could do. But also, going to Catholic school, you had the opportunity. There was a chapel.

00:02:22.880 - 00:02:45.380

There would have been services on a regular basis. Certainly, when I was older, we would take assemblies. We would have to craft assemblies. I can't remember now, but probably sixth form. I can't remember. So, again, that whole idea of thinking about scripture reading or the time of year that we were at

00:02:45.380 - 00:03:08.260

and having to articulate that in front of a group of people, that was all part of what we did at school. Okay, so all the kind of public speaking skills. Fantastic. At what point did you have a sense of a sexual identity and what was that? Oh, primary school. I was falling in love with girls from very early on.

00:03:08.600 - 00:03:24.520

Primary school, as in what age? Ten, eleven. Yes, very clear. I can remember saying to one girl when we were playing netball, if I was a boy, I would marry you. Okay.

00:03:24.860 - 00:03:51.520

And so I was very clear about that. I came out to my parents when I was about 13. There were other things going on in the house that I wasn't aware of, being 13, so my timing wasn't very good. But, you know, that was it. And at the time, you know, both parents were very upset and there was talk about taking me to the doctor,

00:03:51.760 - 00:04:18.020

but that never materialised and it never got spoken of until much, much later on. My father died by then and my mother and I had a conversation about it once and I took home one girlfriend who actually then became my first life partner. What age were you then?

00:04:18.320 - 00:04:33.520

I was in my early 20s by then. Okay. I thought that she and I were going to be together forever and took her home. I didn't really talk to my mum about that, but one of my brothers came to the little blessing that we had.

00:04:33.520 - 00:04:58.020

My siblings, you know, have all been supportive, so that's been fine. And, yeah, you know, it's interesting how times change, you know. So Monica, who's – I'm a widow. Monica died four years ago. But, you know, when we had our civil partnership, you know, that was a very public affair

00:04:58.020 - 00:05:23.760

and, you know, family members that could come came, you know, and it was wonderful. And, you know, my eldest sister was saying how she'd explained it to one of her grandchildren who was asking what it was and, you know, had she explained it right, which, of course, she had. And, you know, so life has just changed a huge amount, you know, in my lifetime, which is fascinating.

00:05:24.600 - 00:05:55.920

Yeah, it has. Going back, what language did you use to come out to your parents? I said I thought I might be homosexual. Oh, OK. Quite formal. Yes. And I don't know where I'd picked that up from, but one of my sisters-in-law was a psychiatric nurse

00:05:55.920 - 00:06:17.840

and I'd started off talking about it with her. OK. Because I felt like she might have been a safe person to talk to about it. I can't remember ever hearing it condemned in church or talked about in church.

00:06:19.180 - 00:06:44.240

Clearly, I'd picked up very strongly the message that this was not a good thing and that I was going to go to hell or, you know, nothing good would come of my life. But I really don't know how I'd picked up that information other than whether it was just the culture or what you heard in the playground or that kind of thing.

00:06:44.400 - 00:07:08.580

So, you know, I hear other people, you know, talking about sermons they heard in church and that sort of thing and I never heard it in church. I never recall hearing it in church at all. But I knew it wasn't good and I knew it was problematic. And so I talked to my sister-in-law about it and then got into some kind of argument with my mother

00:07:10.080 - 00:07:24.080

and it came out in the context of the argument. So it wasn't like, please sit down, I have something to tell you. So it wasn't great. What did your parents do job-wise? Did we cover that at the start?

00:07:24.220 - 00:07:40.720

No, my father was an export manager for a tool-making company in Sheffield, you know, the City of Steel. Yeah. And my mum brought all of us up. Yeah, well, yeah. The whole gang of you.

00:07:40.780 - 00:07:59.040

That's right, exactly. My mother was very bright, you know, in other circumstances. You know, she would have gone to university and those sorts of things, but, you know, the time my parents were brought up, you know, they both left school when they were 14, both served in the Second World War,

00:08:00.020 - 00:08:21.420

and, you know, got married during the war and then started this family. So my mother was very bright, had a great love of literature, and I think a lot of my wordiness comes from my mum. Yeah, yeah. My dad was quite a quiet man and quite, yeah, quite, quite, quite gentle.

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My mother definitely ruled the roost at home, you know. So you didn't always know what my father thought about things, really. Okay. And where are they from originally?

00:08:34.580 - 00:08:46.260

From Sheffield. They're from Sheffield as well. Yeah. Okay, so you came out to your parents as a teenager, and you remained involved in church stuff.

00:08:47.440 - 00:09:16.860

Yes, until I, all the way through, I still, I was very involved in school and I contemplated becoming a nun. I was taught by the Notre Dame sisters, and I used to go and see Sister Patricia when I was in the sixth form about my vocation and all of that. And then I went to university, to Liverpool, to study geology, and I came out at university, as in started going to the Gay Soc and all of that.

00:09:16.900 - 00:09:29.040

Yeah, yeah. And was still really struggling with sexuality and spirituality, and I went to see the Catholic chaplain, who told me that kleptomaniacs couldn't help it either, that it didn't make it right. Okay.

00:09:29.220 - 00:09:45.800

So that was helpful. I haven't heard that one before. He gave me this rather bizarre leaflet that was all about homosexuals. But first of all, it was about homosexuals, and then it was all about how some homosexuals had drink problems,

00:09:45.920 - 00:10:07.400

but that meant that they were more like other people who had drink problems than other homosexuals, and some homosexuals abused drugs, but that meant they were more like people, other people who abused drugs. He was trying to say that, you know, he was trying, I suppose it was trying to be positive, in that just because you were a homosexual, you didn't necessarily have all these character flaws,

00:10:07.720 - 00:10:22.280

but in terms of me, wasn't very helpful. So I kept plodding on, and we had the, we had the, you know, the annual fisticuffs with the Christian Union about whether you could be gay and Christian. Yeah.

00:10:22.580 - 00:10:49.680

And, you know, I ended up co-chairing the gay sock with my friend Chris Chalepi. Then came down, then I moved to Bath to do teacher training, and I was still going to Mass, and, you know, still going to confession and saying, I'm confessing this, but I'm not confessing it, because it's just who I am, and the priest there was very understanding,

00:10:49.680 - 00:11:11.180

and that was the one that gave my partner at the time and I the blessing, and it was, you know, done on the understanding that if the bishop ever saw the liturgy, it was a blessing between friends, but for us, you know, it was a marriage as far as we could make it. That's really quite courageous.

00:11:11.620 - 00:11:15.440

Yeah. Yeah. It was very private, and we didn't tell people. Where did it happen?

00:11:15.640 - 00:11:33.100

In our home, yeah. Wow. And then we discovered Metropolitan Community Church, and we used to be part of a social group down in the southwest called Gay West,

00:11:33.240 - 00:11:51.640

which was big. It had about 200 members, and we used to do all sorts of different activities, and we'd gone down to Bournemouth for a weekend, my partner and I, and picked up a leaflet about this mysterious church that was founded in

00:11:51.640 - 00:12:08.520

and reaching beyond the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender community, and so we invited the pastor of the Bournemouth church to come and talk to Gay West, you know, as one of the social activities. We couldn't actually be there for the talk, but afterwards,

00:12:08.840 - 00:12:28.760

Reverend Frank Scott got back in touch with us and said they'd been quite out of interest, and he thought there was the possibility of starting a church in Bath. So he came up, and we had discussions, and we had a little service in our lounge, and people came, and so we were supported by MCC Bournemouth

00:12:28.760 - 00:12:48.520

to start Living Springs MCC in Bath, which is still going. There's still a church in Bath. And so we co-led that for quite a while, and then the fantastic thing about Metropolitan Community Churches

00:12:48.520 - 00:13:05.560

is the huge amount of lay empowerment and lay involvement, so there were all sorts of things you could do, and for me it was fantastic because I started serving on different committees within the structure, and we have our own training programme for clergy,

00:13:06.120 - 00:13:24.260

so I did some of the teaching on that, and gradually was elected to a paid position where I was responsible for serving our congregations in Europe. So I did that for several years, and then we had a restructuring,

00:13:25.260 - 00:13:38.920

as all great organisations do, and then I was elected to become an elder, which is the spiritual leaders of our denomination, so my full title is Reverend Elder Eggleston,

00:13:39.660 - 00:13:56.360

and I served our congregations in Europe and in Africa as well, so that was the area that I was responsible for. So all in all I did that for nine years, and during that time was when I answered my call to ordination

00:13:56.360 - 00:14:10.980

because the fantastic thing about MCC is you could become moderator, which is the global leader of the whole denomination, and be a layperson, there's no requirement on you to be clergy because they're looking at experience and qualities.

00:14:13.120 - 00:14:27.540

But during that time I finally answered my call to ordination, which had been lurking forever, but I just hadn't answered it yet. Because you're a child really. And so I trained for ordination and was ordained while I was an elder,

00:14:27.760 - 00:14:39.420

and then I stepped down from being an elder and came to serve as pastor here in Northern Lights MCC, so I've been here about nine years. Okay.

00:14:40.380 - 00:14:52.260

Yeah, so interesting times really. So what's the time scale, what age were you when you started, when you had the group in your home that then became...? It was probably about 26, 27.

00:14:52.620 - 00:15:01.480

Right, okay. Something like that, yeah. And what year were you ordained? Ish.

00:15:02.020 - 00:15:08.680

I'm just trying to get an idea. No, that's it, I've been ordained at about 14 years, I think. Yeah. I can't remember.

00:15:08.800 - 00:15:22.040

Okay. And when you were involved in Africa, was that in more LGBT-affirming countries of Africa or South Africa? Yeah, at that stage we had four congregations in South Africa.

00:15:22.480 - 00:15:36.140

Yeah. And we had one congregation in Nigeria and an emerging congregation in Nigeria, but also it meant that if anybody made inquiries about MCC from anywhere in Africa, then they were directed to me.

00:15:36.440 - 00:15:45.100

Okay. So at different times you would get inquiries, and they were genuine inquiries often, but they were asking for things that we couldn't provide

00:15:45.100 - 00:16:02.460

because as a denomination we have limited resources like any denomination. So I used to go to South Africa once or twice a year and spend a weekend at each of the four congregations to provide training and support and that sort of thing,

00:16:02.520 - 00:16:17.040

and then I'd keep in regular contact with them throughout the year, you know, through email, et cetera. Okay. Talk to me about being involved in a church congregation in Newcastle.

00:16:17.900 - 00:16:29.060

What's your links with other churches? Clearly you share a building with URC. Is it Methodist as well? St James' URC has hosted several different congregations while I've been here,

00:16:29.140 - 00:16:44.280

so at the moment there is us and the St James' congregation. There's a Chinese Christian student fellowship, but there has been a Korean church and a French-speaking African church. The Russian Orthodox met here for a while.

00:16:44.420 - 00:17:03.240

The traditional Anglicans met here for a little while. So the elders of St James' have a very positive attitude towards encouraging other congregations to meet and use the building. I'm currently the chair of Newcastle City Centre Churches Together,

00:17:03.240 - 00:17:24.740

and we've just had the clergy breakfast here. We have a clergy breakfast once a month. So when I first came here, the church had a profile board in the city, but it wasn't very high just because of the time,

00:17:25.140 - 00:17:39.540

and they'd had lay pastoral leaders before, but they hadn't had a clergy person, and that just means, you know, I've got the time to do things that if you're already in patechular work and doing church work on top, you just don't have the time.

00:17:41.440 - 00:17:55.840

Generally, the churches that we work with are very affirming because we wouldn't be able to work with them otherwise. There are some churches in the city that would not be affirming of our ministry. Jesmond Parish Church is one of the leading voices

00:17:55.840 - 00:18:14.340

that would take a more traditional view of what family life can be. Interestingly, we have referrals from within Jesmond Parish Church. We've had two, so someone at Jesmond Parish Church knows we exist. So that's interesting for us.

00:18:16.820 - 00:18:34.120

But when I first got here, there was a discussion in the community. They'd had some funding to do some research about what they might want to do about pride because they had had pride, but it had fallen away a little. So I went to this community meeting, and there was loads of groups there.

00:18:34.140 - 00:18:48.760

I was really impressed, but there was genuine fear from about half the people about having a pride parade. They genuinely were fearful of this, and it was fascinating to me because I'd been working in South Africa and places

00:18:48.760 - 00:19:05.460

where violence and homophobia is still rife. I had colleagues who were working in Eastern Europe and Russia and were being arrested, et cetera, et cetera. Here we were in North East England, and people were afraid.

00:19:06.360 - 00:19:21.040

But it was agreed that there would be a pride parade and that there would be a community festival. And it's just gone from strength to strength. It's really big now. I think it's one of the biggest prides that's free entry.

00:19:22.100 - 00:19:38.340

There's like 32,000, 40,000 people there. I've led the pride parade twice. I've spoken on the pride stage. The last two years, the church has done the candlelit vigil at the end of pride,

00:19:38.440 - 00:19:56.160

and that's been very significant as a community event because it's an opportunity to remember our history. It's also an opportunity to remember those people that we've lost. And for this pride committee, they've lost two committee members.

00:19:56.720 - 00:20:19.180

So for them, it's a remembrance of colleagues that have died. Both times have been surprising deaths, unexpected deaths. So it performs quite a valuable function, I think. We have a presence in the family zone because we have a family service here once a month,

00:20:19.580 - 00:20:36.960

and so that's great, and we're part of that team. So we're very integrated into all of that. We have a brilliant radio station here called Pride Radio, which you can hear on the internet all the time,

00:20:37.100 - 00:20:54.320

but it gets community FM license in July. So we have a paid advert on there that goes out on the hour. So our profile in the city is quite high now, and we bill ourselves as the church for our community,

00:20:54.860 - 00:21:07.580

and that's what we offer. I speak at the AIDS vigil. If we have a Holocaust memorial event, I'll often speak at that. I do training around what the Bible does actually say

00:21:07.580 - 00:21:22.840

for sexual health workers and other people. So our profile has got much better in the city, I think, and in the region generally. People know that we exist and that we're a resource.

00:21:23.620 - 00:21:34.860

It was interesting this morning at the clergy breakfast, there's a new member of staff at the cathedral, and she was talking about what they might do for Pride, but she didn't want to clash with what we were doing,

00:21:35.020 - 00:21:49.840

which is fantastic. So it's that whole idea of collaborative working. Next to where the Pride parade starts is a church, St Thomas'. They flew the rainbow flag,

00:21:50.540 - 00:22:03.660

and again it was wonderful for people to be able to see that, and because I was starting the parade, I drew attention to that and let people know that God loves them. Our T-shirts, every year we have a different design T-shirt.

00:22:04.380 - 00:22:25.700

This year it said, God loves you, and then we were handing out badges and stickers. We handed out 1,000 stickers that said, God made me fabulous on them. So the congregation is quite diverse in age and in background.

00:22:28.220 - 00:22:50.320

We're not too diverse ethnically, but we're not bad. Large number of people that are involved in ministry, and very friendly, welcoming, embracing congregation. So how many members do you have?

00:22:50.380 - 00:23:07.840

It sounds like you're so integrated within the community and within other churches, it's almost irrelevant. MCC has a formal membership process, so we formally have, at the moment, about 14 members.

00:23:07.840 - 00:23:21.480

On a Sunday we get about 35 in worship. Is that adults? Yes, the family service runs once a month, and we get between 10 and 20 people at that, including children.

00:23:23.140 - 00:23:37.040

I would say that our congregation size is about 65, but at the carol service there were 81 people, which was fantastic. So if everybody turned up, who considers themselves to be part of the church community,

00:23:37.040 - 00:23:48.440

there'd be about 80 people. But I would say, if you were calculating who comes over a month, because people travel and they've got shifts and things, you don't get the same people each Sunday.

00:23:48.940 - 00:24:09.220

So I would say our congregation size is about 65. And people come from all sorts of different church traditions. Do you have the full range of LGBT, or do you have more of a sector of...?

00:24:09.220 - 00:24:35.860

No, we have straight people and people who identify on the whole spectrum, I think. More recently we have more people who identify as trans or gender-fluid. And I think, certainly with things like gender-fluid,

00:24:35.900 - 00:24:58.020

I think some of that is just having the vocabulary to articulate how you feel about yourself or how you identify. But certainly we're seen as a safe place for trans folk to come. We've struggled in the past to get students.

00:24:58.020 - 00:25:09.840

We've just not somehow been able to access students. But the last couple of years we've got quite a little influx of students, which is great, because we sit right in the middle of the Northumbria University campus

00:25:09.840 - 00:25:21.100

and we're not far from Newcastle University, so we've got students from both campuses. Do you actually go into the universities on bonfires and stuff? Well, one of the challenges is we haven't been able to do that,

00:25:21.160 - 00:25:42.580

and some of that is having the right people in our congregation to do that, and some of it is that the universities have their own policies around that. One of the Anglican chaplains was explaining to me at Newcastle University was that they'd had some difficulty with some other churches

00:25:42.580 - 00:25:59.920

whose evangelising methods perhaps weren't very appropriate or they weren't... Subtle. So they'd made the decision that no churches were allowed on campus during Freshers' Week, etc. So we haven't done any formal work through that.

00:26:00.020 - 00:26:14.580

But there's a website called Fusion now, we registered on that, and that's for students who are moving away from home and want to find a church. But also, you know, it's that sort of subtle irony really. There's the whole internet and social media,

00:26:14.980 - 00:26:34.620

but actually we put a poster outside the church and we find that's very effective. Because students are walking up and down the precinct and they see it. So there are different ways of finding people. When I first came here there was...

00:26:35.560 - 00:26:50.420

You would have one family who would have children and then they would leave because it was a Sunday evening service and that just wouldn't work, especially with younger children. And then a combination of things, one of which is the advent of gay adoption

00:26:50.420 - 00:27:08.280

becoming much more straightforward and more people wanting to have children and also just some people in our congregation who came as young people maturing and being ready to have children. So now we have several families and in fact we picked up another family

00:27:08.280 - 00:27:20.300

from Pride this year, just gone. So, you know, that's pretty amazing and wonderful really. Yeah, I find it very encouraging because that's personally the thing that has been a bit off-putting for me.

00:27:20.420 - 00:27:34.880

I mean there's nothing where I am, to be honest. I'm a bit of a dark hole for LGBT affirming stuff. No, it's fantastic. Clearly there have been massive changes in society

00:27:35.760 - 00:27:51.560

and also in the church in the last 40 years Could you maybe tell me some of the things that you have seen change and the things that have maybe surprised you the most? I think one of the things that surprised me the most

00:27:51.560 - 00:28:07.440

is sadly how far there is yet to come. I went down to London to a network gathering of women leaders and these were Christian women from all sorts of walks of life and all sorts of traditions.

00:28:07.440 - 00:28:25.100

And to hear some of the young women talk about it being a male-only leadership team and how they couldn't get their voices heard at all and the woman's place still being in the home. So I was really quite shocked about that sort of thing.

00:28:25.240 - 00:28:38.720

So to actually come out as lesbian or gay in that sort of environment I would imagine is just quite shocking. I follow Diverse Church on Twitter which is a group for young LGBT Christians

00:28:38.720 - 00:28:49.080

and hearing some of those stories you just think, oh my goodness. For all the wonderful things that have happened there are still ways to go in certain churches.

00:28:51.820 - 00:29:08.120

Being able to hear clergy colleagues from all sorts of different denominations be affirming. The letter that went to the primates. The Dean of Newcastle Cathedral signed that.

00:29:11.880 - 00:29:24.480

To have that conversation with clergy, Anglican clergy about flying the rainbow flag and about what they might do for pride. Those sorts of conversations are very heartening.

00:29:26.240 - 00:29:46.400

I think hearing... When I first started doing blessings for same-sex couples often they would be tiny because there were so many people that they couldn't tell

00:29:46.400 - 00:30:01.040

or there would be lots of friends but not many family. That sort of thing. Now we have legal marriage. Like I said, my wife died about four years ago

00:30:01.040 - 00:30:18.660

but to be able to say, my wife, what an extraordinary thing. When Monica died, to be accorded all those rights because we were in a civil partnership and a straight friend who was in the same...

00:30:18.660 - 00:30:30.500

We were in the same carer's group together. Her and her partner had been together as long as Monica and I had but for very sensible reasons they weren't married and she had a terrible time sorting out his affairs.

00:30:31.280 - 00:30:47.300

Those sorts of things are just quite amazing. I think the number of people who are willing to say this theology that we used to believe we don't anymore or this doctrine that we used to believe has to be more accurate

00:30:47.300 - 00:31:02.080

we don't anymore and we're sorry for the harm that it's caused. We have huge conferences once every three years and the last one was in Chicago. What's WE? MCC?

00:31:02.480 - 00:31:14.440

MCC. It's like the Synod. It's called General Conference. It happens once every three years. The last one was in Chicago. Pride was on so we marched in Pride which was fantastic.

00:31:14.940 - 00:31:36.240

The Marin Foundation was there and they just had big signs saying we are sorry. Having Fred Phelps congregations picketing and doing things to have Christians who are willing to say we're sorry for the harm that we've done.

00:31:37.580 - 00:31:57.440

People were so thrilled to see them and were glad to see them and there were still people there who were saying we were going to hell but overwhelmingly there's this sea change which is just fantastic. So all of that is really wonderful to know about.

00:31:57.940 - 00:32:12.380

I think it's that funny mixture though observing other denominations where the hierarchy is wanting to say one thing but the local parish is saying quite another. I had a couple come to see me.

00:32:12.600 - 00:32:28.240

They're in an Anglican church in the city which is part of Inclusive Church. They are out as a couple, very engaged in the church, very welcome in the church. There are other gay people in that congregation who are equally supported and affirmed

00:32:29.480 - 00:32:50.340

but they couldn't get married in their church. So half the congregation, the choir, the choir master, the organist and the clergy came here and I officiated at their wedding because the priest in charge did not want to go against the will of the bishop

00:32:50.340 - 00:33:16.740

which is appropriate to the obedience of the authority that you are under and it also meant that he could not serve his congregation. So the congregation all rocked up and I did their wedding. So those sorts of things are sad because I understand it

00:33:16.740 - 00:33:34.620

and also it's about at some point there needs to be a recognition and a shift and a change. Which leads me on neatly to my next question. The Church of England, obviously the established church, how do you see that panning out?

00:33:34.800 - 00:33:53.780

How do you see the future of the Church of England? Well I think that when Rowan Williams came into position that would have been the time to make a seismic shift because people knew that he was more liberal in his views

00:33:53.780 - 00:34:09.220

and yet he was given the position. So that would have been the time to do it. I think that Justin Welby's being very pragmatic and I think there will be a division of the church

00:34:10.060 - 00:34:28.520

or looser ties within the broad scheme of things because if I was in that room I'm very firm in my belief that God made me and God loves me and that my sexuality is a gift from God.

00:34:29.240 - 00:34:45.120

And so I wouldn't want to be shifting my position and I'm sure that those who hold completely the opposite view to me are sincere and trusting in God and faith in their position. I don't think they're bad Christians because they don't believe the same as me.

00:34:46.220 - 00:35:04.300

And so all I can see is that two different bodies will emerge. Ruth Hunt wrote a very interesting article because she said that's bad news for LGBT people because that means there will be no protection

00:35:04.300 - 00:35:24.820

in some countries and in some places for LGBT people. What I think it also means though is a lot of people can stop hiding and they can start living their lives properly where there is freedom. Because at the moment, for example, what's going on where clergy are not allowed to marry.

00:35:29.080 - 00:35:54.120

What I feel about that is first of all it's ridiculous but secondly I feel really strongly that you can't take away a legal right from someone who doesn't belong to your organisation. So if I was an Anglican priest and I loved and lived with a person who was not an Anglican

00:35:55.180 - 00:36:15.220

but they're still having to live under Anglican rules and you are denying them a legal right of the land to marry and I think that is untenable really. And I guess for me the recent guy in Winchester Diocese where I live

00:36:15.220 - 00:36:33.220

who was PTO removed because he married his partner what message are you giving out that I'm showing commitment and honesty towards someone but would rather you didn't know basically. Would you agree that to me it seems there can't be a middle ground anymore.

00:36:33.460 - 00:36:53.040

You're either affirming or you're not. I can't see we can have this fudge anymore. So in a way there is inevitably going to be a split. Thinking about the last few years I mean this is probably my personal view

00:36:53.040 - 00:37:12.960

but it seems to me there's a move of the spirit when you have a US president who's very LGBT affirming leading figures in Jodie Foster coming out of the Oscars Steve Chalk, Rob Bell, Vicki Beeching prominent Christian figures in media coming out as affirming or coming out indeed.

00:37:14.180 - 00:37:37.580

Do you see that as a sign of God affirming us as people and the move of the spirit towards greater inclusion? Yes I think it takes great courage in these circumstances when you have such a high profile to do something like that

00:37:37.580 - 00:37:54.440

because you're not only risking your own life but especially someone like Steve Chalk who's a church pastor you know then there are implications for your congregation etc etc. Yes I think it's fantastic.

00:37:54.440 - 00:38:10.860

Nancy Wilson who is our moderator read one of the lessons at President Obama's inauguration church service. Oh did she? Yes so you know that also speaks to his desire to show

00:38:12.000 - 00:38:34.340

what it is to be a fully inclusive nation and to be an inclusive church. I think it is a powerful movement of the Holy Spirit. And I also you know I wonder if God's just finally lost patience you know said something about yeah you know now it really is time

00:38:34.340 - 00:38:53.620

but you know all of these journeys take tiny steps you know each one of our own coming out story you know is a journey in itself and it continues because we keep having to come out. So there's something about more and more people being willing to take that journey

00:38:53.620 - 00:39:14.120

and being able to be more outspoken about it and you just get to the point where there is a tipping point. Where there are just enough people for this to start to be a non-issue. Yeah I feel to me that there's more people on the whole on the side

00:39:14.120 - 00:39:27.820

which is leading to more people feeling able to publish books and to speak out publicly. Well you know the other bit of it is that for a vast majority of the population church is completely irrelevant.

00:39:28.400 - 00:39:44.200

Yeah. So it really doesn't matter what you're talking about because it doesn't impinge on people's lives. You know you think about the Catholic teaching on using non-natural means of contraception

00:39:44.200 - 00:40:00.660

and I think if you went into any Catholic parish you would find some people who absolutely adhere to the church's teaching but there are many couples who do not. And so there's a mismatch between the lives of people

00:40:00.660 - 00:40:12.940

and the doctrine that traditional churches can espouse and it's actually making those gaps further. My mother used to say if you would know she'd say the priests go on and on about sex

00:40:12.940 - 00:40:22.940

she said but you know when you've had a full day at work or looking after children and then you're worried about you haven't got enough money to make ends meet the last thing you're thinking about.

00:40:23.240 - 00:40:39.640

You know. Yeah. So I think some of it is that what the church has to say becomes irrelevant. So these people who are coming out who are mainstream Christians

00:40:39.640 - 00:40:51.860

and Christians of influence what they say is important but they're only being able to do that because society has changed and so for so many other people this is just a non-issue.

00:40:52.220 - 00:41:06.080

So although it feels massive for us for a lot of places it's just not. You know I think that's interesting. I started my working life as a teacher

00:41:06.080 - 00:41:18.400

and one of the reasons I left was Section 28. And that was vitriolic and I worked in an educational authority that didn't have sexual orientation as part of its Equal Ops policy

00:41:18.400 - 00:41:28.920

and I went into a school recently and there was just Stonewall stuff all over the place and some people are gay get over it and all of this stuff just on the school walls

00:41:28.920 - 00:41:39.880

just like all the other stuff that was on the school walls and for me that was extraordinary. Interestingly my son's 16 and at his school there's nothing anywhere.

00:41:42.060 - 00:41:50.720

But he said to me the other day I don't get it all this LGBT stuff I don't get it. He's like so what?

00:41:51.900 - 00:42:07.220

And I said yeah but that is the point we're trying to make. That's really interesting. What would you say are the things you feel most proud of that you've done in faith?

00:42:11.300 - 00:42:24.100

Well I think just being me and that's a rare privilege I've had in my life is to be me. So many people have to hide some of themselves

00:42:24.100 - 00:42:41.180

so they make the choice to be out as gay or out as Christian but somehow or another can't make those two meet. I've been tremendously privileged to serve in a denomination

00:42:41.180 - 00:42:51.720

that absolutely encourages me fully as a woman, as a lesbian, as a lay person and as a clergy person. That's been extraordinary.

00:42:52.280 - 00:43:01.160

It feels to me that from an early age you felt entirely comfortable in your own skin. Well I knew who I was. I wouldn't have said to be honest

00:43:01.160 - 00:43:12.020

I was entirely comfortable about it but I knew who I was. Probably by the time I was in my late 20s I was comfortable

00:43:12.580 - 00:43:19.360

because one of the things about when you're brought up in any church and then you shift to a different church is you have to rethink some of the things

00:43:19.360 - 00:43:28.860

that you've been taught and whether it's true or not. Being brought up Catholic is you have a whole set of doctrines

00:43:28.860 - 00:43:40.160

which you then sift through and guilt is a big part of being a good Catholic. Guilt about anything. So actually working through all of that

00:43:40.160 - 00:43:51.460

and then the role of women etc. So I think there is that point in your life where you really do accept yourself but I think I've always known who I am

00:43:51.460 - 00:44:06.840

and I've had the luxury of being able to live that out. I'm very proud of what we've achieved in this city because we are the church for our community. People do know who we are

00:44:06.840 - 00:44:20.760

and they may not come on a Sunday but if they need us they know where we are and that feels great. And just every time you could go somewhere

00:44:21.540 - 00:44:32.460

and show people the love of God for them as queer people or queer allies and for them to feel it that's just fantastic.

00:44:32.860 - 00:44:42.680

Just fantastic. I did a wedding here and talking to people in the line up afterwards and this woman was saying

00:44:42.680 - 00:44:54.200

I felt really uncomfortable coming to church because I thought I would be judged. She said but you're quite user friendly aren't you? Excellent.

00:44:54.880 - 00:45:04.140

And I thought that was very good feedback. So that's it. The fact that you can just help people to know that God made them and God loves them

00:45:04.140 - 00:45:15.480

and that they are welcome in God's house is a really important thing to be able to offer. I'm very envious if I'm honest. When I think of MCC

00:45:15.480 - 00:45:23.120

the only MCCs I've heard of in this country are North London because I know Sharon and Northern Lights. And I've heard of it

00:45:23.120 - 00:45:35.960

and I couldn't tell you the other ones are. So living 400 miles, 300 miles away I had heard of MCC Northern Lights. So speaks for itself.

00:45:39.940 - 00:45:51.500

I'm interested kind of slightly personal but it is relevant to this. As a bisexual person I sometimes feel when I go to LGBT events

00:45:51.500 - 00:46:06.240

that it says be in the title but I don't understand how to fit in and it feels to me that if you are in a lesbian or a male gay couple

00:46:08.020 - 00:46:19.640

to a certain extent you can be transparent about who you are but where you have an extended family or children involved

00:46:19.640 - 00:46:35.200

a husband of the opposite sex it's less easy to be out or to feel at home within the LGBT faith community. From a personal point of view

00:46:35.200 - 00:46:46.060

when I've gone to LGBT faith events it's been lovely and wonderful but I've not really felt very part of it. And I wondered how MCC handled

00:46:46.060 - 00:46:57.140

maybe people who are not in people who are in mixed orientation marriages or that kind of area because to me that's almost the next thing.

00:46:59.100 - 00:47:17.200

I think your observation about being in or being out about it is the challenge because I live in this topsy-turvy world where if a man and a woman come into the church

00:47:17.200 - 00:47:25.500

by and large it is assumed by much of the congregation that that is a gay man being accompanied by a straight female friend

00:47:25.500 - 00:47:33.860

or brother and sister or whatever the first conclusion isn't it's a married couple. Similarly if two women walk in together

00:47:33.860 - 00:47:43.680

the assumption is that's a lesbian couple rather than it could be two friends or two sisters or what have you. There have been people within the congregation

00:47:43.680 - 00:47:52.100

who've identified as bisexual and have been very open about that regardless of the gender of their partner and that's been very helpful

00:47:52.100 - 00:48:06.660

that they've been able to articulate their bisexuality because that enables the congregation and me to understand more

00:48:06.660 - 00:48:13.940

about that particular dynamic because if people don't talk about it and don't identify then it can be more difficult to talk about it.

00:48:14.420 - 00:48:31.660

We ran a worship team called Queer Up North and we took different Bible passages and I preached on David and David as a bisexual.

00:48:32.340 - 00:48:41.240

Yeah I mean to me he's metrosexual, bisexual very much like David Beckham it's something about the name David but I'm doing a doctorate in bisexual

00:48:41.240 - 00:48:53.740

holistic identity for bisexual people and part of my beef is that pro-LGBT biblical exegesis they always focus in on David the gay man

00:48:53.740 - 00:49:02.800

and Ruth the lesbian woman and to me David's behaviour if you're turned on by a woman sunbathing naked on a rooftop

00:49:02.800 - 00:49:16.560

you're unlikely to be entirely homosexual so I'm encouraged that you're saying that because for me we need to have the same degree of integrity about grey areas.

00:49:16.980 - 00:49:22.980

Well and that's what I was talking about because I was talking about me falling in love with Boy George before I knew that Boy George was a man

00:49:22.980 - 00:49:35.260

and about the furore of Tom Robinson who was this gay icon certainly when I was coming out and growing up and then married a woman

00:49:35.840 - 00:49:51.260

and the furore that surrounded him as though he was deserting the cause and absolutely you could interpret David as having raped that woman

00:49:51.260 - 00:49:58.040

because it doesn't say anywhere that she consented and so again how many gay men do you go around raping women

00:49:58.040 - 00:50:11.920

if they are gay men? So yes it's actually seeing those things and celebrating all that there is to find about human sexuality

00:50:12.680 - 00:50:20.560

and the other thing when I'm talking about when I'm running workshops I talk about the George Clooney test

00:50:20.560 - 00:50:34.560

because I would see myself as 100% lesbian but if I was stuck on a desert island with the most appalling, ugliest, unattractive vicious, vitriolic woman in the world

00:50:34.560 - 00:50:44.640

and George Clooney would I end up having a relationship with George Clooney as opposed to this really horrible, revolting woman?

00:50:45.200 - 00:51:01.760

So the spectrum of human sexuality is a lot broader than we give it credit for I think and I think there's still a lot of work to be done in educating people around bisexuality

00:51:01.760 - 00:51:09.700

because there's that whole thing of well you're promiscuous or you can't make your mind up or all of those myths that go around with it

00:51:09.700 - 00:51:20.940

That's kind of what I'm trying to do really that's my little contribution it's very specific but there's a gap in the market so to speak

00:51:20.940 - 00:51:30.040

That's right exactly How would you describe yourself? I was a dyke I love the word dyke

00:51:31.260 - 00:51:43.560

I was talking to a friend who's older than me the new vocabulary and the new way of describing gender is very interesting to me and I haven't quite got my head around all of it yet

00:51:43.560 - 00:52:00.680

but I like dyke because when I'm with women who are very very womanly as in how society expects women to be I'm definitely not like that

00:52:00.680 - 00:52:11.080

and yet I'm not a man and so for me I feel I fit in this middle space between the two so I can relate to both groups but I don't belong specifically to either group

00:52:11.080 - 00:52:21.580

I'm definitely a woman in that I don't have any gender dysphoria around my body my body is my body and obviously I'm taller and slimmer

00:52:21.580 - 00:52:32.000

and a bit more flat chested I would be more androgynous looking I think I would like a more boyish figure but God didn't give me one of those

00:52:35.180 - 00:52:47.900

I think there's a real strength in the word dyke and I am a strong woman that's my space in the world and I think as I have got older

00:52:47.900 - 00:53:02.120

I understand that better and I enjoy that which I think is just something that comes with age so yes I would definitely say

00:53:02.120 - 00:53:13.200

and now I'm an old dyke as well so that pleases me too much older better I'm a better dyke

00:53:13.200 - 00:53:32.000

do you feel comfortable describing yourself as a Christian? yes sometimes I'm sitting here with my clergy collar on I think it's something that I've become more passionate about

00:53:32.540 - 00:53:51.320

as I have been able to articulate more clearly what my faith means to me and for me my faith is about changing the world and making it a better place

00:53:51.320 - 00:54:11.760

and bringing a little bit of heaven on earth and I have also become more comfortable with apologising for what the church has done to our people because that's a really important thing

00:54:12.580 - 00:54:28.660

for people to hear and for people to hear it from someone wearing a collar because to them it doesn't really matter where in the spectrum of the church I sit

00:54:28.660 - 00:54:40.980

if someone has been hurt by the church I'm part of it so to be able to say yes the church did you wrong and I am sorry and I will do what I can

00:54:40.980 - 00:55:00.160

to show you that that's not what God wants for you so I think for me that's been a real that's been a real breakthrough in my faith journey I suppose I've always been clear that I'm a Christian

00:55:00.160 - 00:55:08.620

clear that I'm a person of faith and I've always been ribbed very slightly for it in different workplaces so it's always been part of who I am

00:55:08.620 - 00:55:22.100

I think going out into the world and being very clear with people about it is something that I've done a lot more here because I'm out in the community more

00:55:22.100 - 00:55:31.080

I think my previous ministry roles have been working within the church context so you're working within the church structure to support churches and pastors to go do that stuff

00:55:31.080 - 00:55:44.520

whereas here I'm on the front line and I can remember quite a pivotal moment probably two or three years in we used to have an LGBT workers network

00:55:44.520 - 00:55:56.960

so anyone who worked within the LGBT community professionally could come to these meetings and so you would have the LGBT trade union rep for the fire service

00:55:56.960 - 00:56:07.560

or the community liaison police officer a wide range of different people would come to these meetings and I was quite new to the city so they were useful for me for networking

00:56:07.560 - 00:56:17.680

and it was agreed that we would start moving around and have the meetings in different people's offices so we could get to see physically where their projects were etc

00:56:19.620 - 00:56:30.340

and I said we'd have one here and there was a woman who works in one of the other projects in the city who I knew was quite anti-church

00:56:31.240 - 00:56:39.460

and so I was a bit... I didn't think she'd come I didn't think she'd come in the building but to actually sit there with these people

00:56:39.460 - 00:56:52.100

and have to articulate why my faith was important in this context of what we did as a church it was really quite a moment and I can remember being very nervous

00:56:52.100 - 00:57:03.720

and being very sincere in what I said but also wanting not to sound too preachy and all those sorts of things and it's really interesting

00:57:03.720 - 00:57:11.960

because this person that I was worried about we have since... we now work really closely together and we are good friends

00:57:11.960 - 00:57:19.160

and I said to her one time I said it seems to me that I've moved from being the church leader to being a community leader

00:57:19.160 - 00:57:27.020

she said yes you have and I said well how's that happened she said well people didn't like the church Cecilia very much

00:57:27.020 - 00:57:35.300

but they liked the social action Cecilia and once they discovered the social action Cecilia they didn't care about the church Cecilia

00:57:35.300 - 00:57:43.580

and I think that's a really important message for any Christian people don't care there's a phrase isn't there

00:57:43.580 - 00:57:48.780

people don't care don't care what you know until they know that you care and it's very much that

00:57:48.780 - 00:57:58.400

so the fact that I have been out in the city and the church has been very visible in really supporting

00:57:59.040 - 00:58:06.100

the work of other organisations and really standing up against homophobia and transphobia and really supporting people who are

00:58:06.100 - 00:58:13.480

affected by HIV and AIDS working with refugees all manner of things and for me that's

00:58:13.480 - 00:58:21.540

that's what my Christian faith is about it's not about you know making people stand on a soapbox and declare

00:58:21.540 - 00:58:29.340

Jesus as their Lord and Saviour it's about changing the world and you know I might do it in Jesus name but I don't need to tell everybody else I'm doing it

00:58:29.340 - 00:58:36.200

for that reason yeah fantastic okay I'll draw to a close now thank you very much for your time Cecilia

00:58:36.200 - 00:58:37.620

not at all it's been a pleasure