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My name is Mark Beach, it's the 15th of February 2016 and I'm here talking to the Reverend Doctor Malcolm Johnson for the Lesbian and Gay Christian Movement Oral History Project. Malcolm, thank you very much for being willing to have a conversation with me this afternoon. I wondered if you could just start by telling me something about your childhood and your

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early years as it were. I was born in Great Yarmouth in Norfolk and my father was the managing director of a family firm which was clothing manufacturers and he was in charge of the oil skins and other members of the family looked after socks and things like that. I think he expected me to

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go into the family firm and I never had enough courage to say to him, look I'm not interested, I'm not a businessman. And it was quite a long while before actually I told him. I went to a ghastly public school, fifth rate, called Framlingham College in Suffolk and from there I went to do my national service in the Royal Norfolk Regiment and I was a subaltern and

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I went to Cyprus and I went to Germany and I enjoyed it immensely. No sex, please, we're British, there was no sex at all. But there had been at school of course and in my prep school as well, it was taken for granted that everybody had sex which was not penetrative but just wanking and I enjoyed that no end. So I knew that I was gay early on but in

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the army nothing happened at all and then I went to Durham University where again nothing happened at all. It was a very small university, Newcastle was still part of it but Durham, I forget how many students, it had something like 1,500 and I enjoyed that enormously and became chair and president of the student Christian movement. So of course I knew everybody and they

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all knew me. Then I got my degree, moved to Cudston Theological College, again no sex at all. I was very fond of one of my fellow students but it was never anything physical. He would come and stay in the holidays but nothing happened at all. And from Cudston I went to St Mark, Portsea, which was a very big parish in Portsmouth. There were two big parishes,

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St Mary which had fallen on bad times and St Mark. There were nine of us, the vicar and eight curates. After about a couple of years I was desperately unhappy because I was gay and couldn't express my feelings and so I went to see Chad Vara who was the head of the Samaritans who I knew and he said oh what you need is a nice woman. You're obviously frightened of women so

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I'll get you a woman to take you to parties. Of course I nearly died. I dashed off up to St Paul's and said some prayers and a year later I went back and I said look I don't want a woman thanks but I do need to be heterosexual. I want to get married. So he gave me the name of a psychotherapist called Mrs Phillips who was a Jungian. I used to call her my young lady and twice a week I would

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lay on the couch and she would smoke a cigarette behind me puffing away and let me talk and of course I just lay there expecting something to happen but it didn't of course and she went along with my idea that I ought to be heterosexual and it nothing happened except that I started to have sex when I went to see her in London. In the evenings I'd pick up prostitutes and I'm very

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ashamed of that even now. Pay three quid, take them to my hotel and have a lovely time and I was very very upset about all that. I never told her because the young lady didn't know. Shall we just pause there for a moment. So that's a big stretch of your life. Do you think that any of what happened subsequently in terms of your ministry and so on could be kind

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of seen in your childhood? I mean were there aspects of that that are linked in any way? Well of course when I accepted being gay I realised that part of my ministry must be to help other people accept their homosexuality and I did an awful lot of counselling work and people would come and see me and talk to me when I was chaplain of Queen Mary College in London and I think my

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early childhood obviously had affected that, that it was so unhappy I was determined that other people were not going to be so unhappy. You talk about in your Diary of a Gay Priest you talk about deciding to run your car off the road and the only thing that stopped you was Ben, your spaniel. Had there been previous occasions when you'd felt suicidal? No, no there hadn't. I was depressed of

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course and but on that day I'd been to see the young lady and she really hadn't been much help of course. I just felt so depressed that there was no future for me. I couldn't see myself getting married and I thought well I'll kill myself. I know it all sounds very dramatic but I was at Hindhead, I can see it now, when I was driving along I would drive off the road onto the devil's

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punchbowl it's called and then Ben was sitting there and I thought well I can't kill him as well and so we went on. My vicar of course had to be asked if I could be away from the parish two days a week for this therapy and he had agreed and I had put him under the seal of the confessional not to tell anyone and he told the bishop but the bishop said to me after six months

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how's the counselling going and I felt very angry about that really, very angry indeed. So obviously I had begun to have sex with with men and I enjoyed it, there's no two ways about that in London, but in the parish of course it was a very busy parish, huge Sunday school, massive youth club and I was the one who really, I was the curate who ran it,

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the youth and the children and as I said in the book I'm so glad that I've never been attracted to children or teenagers because they were very fond of me and used to push me around and I didn't feel even slightly attracted to them. Who I did feel attracted to was one of the ordinands who was 19 then, I was very attracted to him and I never touched him but we used to go out

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for drinks and that gave me some warmth in the middle of all this coldness. And the fact that you were gay, you'd never said, you never told anybody? No, nobody at all. All through your adolescence? No, when I made my confession of course I did because the other sins didn't get a look in. I remember Father Martin Knight who was a Kellam father said to me, oh you shouldn't

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worry about this because it's a gift you know and if you feel sexy thoughts coming along go and wash your hands. I didn't seem to do much good, I had very clean hands but I told nobody else at all. And the desire to change, to become heterosexual as you put it, was really quite strong? It was very strong but of course I didn't know how to do it and then on my last day in Portsmouth

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a ring on the doorbell of the clergy house there was this girl who I'd been fond of at Durham. I wasn't attracted to her sexually but I did like her very much and she said she'd been a nun for five years. She'd been fond of me and she's now a nurse and should we go out together? Well of course I thought this was God giving me my answer with her on the doorstep. It just seemed

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too good to be true. So when I came to Durham, to London, to be chaplain of Queen Mary College I saw her quite regularly. We'd go to the theatre, we never touched one another hardly at all, just a peck on the cheek. And after a while I asked her if she would think about marrying me. And about two weeks before the wedding, which was to be a very big affair, I told her I was

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mainly gay. She said oh don't worry we'll beat that, you know, we'll be all right. And so we got married, which of course was the biggest bloody mistake I have made in my life. And I ruined her life and I wrecked my life. Luckily I didn't have to leave my job because I went to see the bishop who was Robert Stockford, told him that I would resign

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and he said there's no need to, you haven't done anything wrong. He said you've just made the biggest mistake in your life and you must be sorry for the mistake but get on with your life. And because you're a university chaplain I won't sack you because I think most of the students and the staff wouldn't be very bothered.

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That's, where are we, mid-60s, yes? 1967, 1967, yes. That's really quite an enlightened view on the part of the bishop. You're telling me. Stockford was a wonderful man and he was so gentle and loving. He'd been

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Bishop of Peterborough and I remember going to see him at Fulham Palace and trembling, thinking well he's going to get rid of me. Instead of that he said you go back and get on with it, you're obviously a very good chaplain, get on with it. And a month later a letter appeared from him, would I like to preach in St Paul's as one of his nominees. I mean that's

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terrific isn't it? Yeah absolutely, yes. And I then went back to see him again. He asked to see me a couple more times and he was wanting to get information. What was it like to be gay? How many clergy did I think were gay? And I said well I would quite like to work after Queen Mary College with the gay community and be a sort of chaplain.

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And he said well it would be a marvellous idea because nobody else is doing it but where could we put you? Let's talk for a bit about Queen Mary College because that sounds like it must have been quite an exciting time in your life really, I mean not least because of the work that you were doing. Yes. But I think there might be other reasons as well. Well I enjoyed all the

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students of course and one or two of them were very handsome. I fell in love with one of them and I remember saying to him I do love you very much you know, are you worried? Good Lord no, he said if you said you hated me I'd be worried. And he was beautiful. He lived, we had six students living in the chaplaincy with me and I often wonder what happened to him

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and whether he remembers that. But he was very physical with me, he used to sort of throw me around and hug me and as the boy in Portsmouth had done, he used to sort of hold me and wrestle with me and nearly drive me mad. But I did enjoy Queen Mary College because I offered to help the Albany Trust. The law had just changed in 1967, 68, can't remember now. And so I began to have

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people sent to me for counselling. Well I needed the counselling, never mind about them. But I did the work and started a group at the Royal Foundation of St Catherine for people who were being counselled as a social group. And we had dancing and we had a bar and of course I went to work at the Royal Foundation later on

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but every Saturday night 60, 70, 100 people would meet in St Catherine's and I still see people who say I met my partner because of you, which is lovely. And you had Mary Whitehouse to come and speak. I did, yes. And the students regarded her as a bit of a laugh really. Every Sunday night in the halls of residence in Woodford where there about 800 people lived, I would put on a speaker

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and we always had 200 people after supper would come and listen and of course they all came to hear her. And she made a fool of herself of course but I knew she would and I didn't like her at all. And I got one or two other people like George McLeod to come who were much more with students. I used to enjoy those talks very much.

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And am I right in thinking that you met your partner while you were there? Yes indeed. My marriage broke up sadly after only nine months. I couldn't fulfil her needs, her sexual needs and I just, we both agreed to part. And after that my partner was referred to me from the Albany Trust and I fell in love with him and we've been

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together ever since. It's 46 years this year, maybe 47. That's not a bad record for gay people who are supposed to be incapable of long term relationships. Well we had our ups and downs obviously. That's life isn't it? But we're still together and we're very happy together. He came to me by mistake really. He'd heard a talk by Father Fabian Cooper from the Albany Trust

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about homosexuality at his university which was City University. So he went to see Doreen Cordell, the social worker and said, I think I'm gay. Could I go and see that very nice priest, handsome priest? And she said, well I don't think you can because you're an Anglican. You'd better go and see Malcolm Johnson. And so he came to see me and about six months later we

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moved in together in the flat that I was living in as I say and we've been together ever since. And any comment by the university authorities? No, none at all. Just accepted? The students and staff all accepted him as part of the furniture as the Bishop had said that they would. I mean had I been in a parish it would have been very different wouldn't it? I couldn't

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really have had him living in the vicarage I don't suppose, although nowadays people do. I mean did clergy have their partners living in the vicarage in the 60s? I mean did it happen at all? There were one or two but they were very heavily closeted and when I started the group for gay clergy which I started in when it was about 1973 I think

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they were mainly on their own, the clergy. One or two were working partners but it wasn't possible I don't think in parishes in those days to have your partner living in the vicarage. We had two meetings a year it was called the consultation and that's different from the social group that I mentioned. The consultation was for clergy and as there were

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only men in those days they were all men. And was there some overlap between the social and the consultation in terms of membership? Yes there was because it was fun on a Saturday evening, sometimes it was boring but you had a drink and you had a laugh and you met other gay people, you danced, I mean that was amazing really that we had dancing.

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So yes some of the clergy came to that and met their partners there. In the book you talk about going to a nightclub, I forget what it was called. Well it was lovely, it was in Archer Street, the rehearsal club. We used to go there quite often. It was mixed, gay and straight men and women and run by a woman called Jo who's still

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around, I've forgotten her surname, but it was a lovely easy club and I used to take young members of the either the clergy or the other group with me, a half a dozen, Robert and I would take them so they could see what a gay club was like and there was dancing there. And had that club existed prior to the change in the law?

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Yes. Right. And had you visited it prior to the change in the law? No I think it was after that. Right. I'm just wondering the impact that the change in the law had, I mean for somebody,

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I'm 54 so I was very young when it happened, and I think it's very hard for us to imagine the impact of the change in the law. Yes it was an enormous change and various groups started like Gay Lib and the bookshop, you know, Gays the Word, and it was much easier to go to clubs and pubs and

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restaurants which were gay and started up in the early 1970s. It was much more relaxing and I'm so grateful that the law was passed. Mm. Were you active in any kind of political way during that period in terms of the change in the law?

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No, not really. It was before I came out really. My job was more counselling after the law had changed to help people to adjust to their sexuality, particularly Christian people, who of course were weighed down with guilt. Yeah, still are.

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Still are, and that I think is a terrible thing. Yeah. Right, so we've got to Queen Mary College and the time comes for you to begin to think about moving on to something else. Yes.

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And there's quite a story there too, isn't there? It was very difficult to know where to go. The bishop had changed, it was Ellison, Gerald Ellison was the bishop, who kept saying to me, why don't you keep quiet? He had a lovely deep voice. There's no need to keep on, because of course GCM had started and we had the first

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service in St Bottles and the first annual general meeting, if you like, in the school. I had a school which I was chairman of and Gerald was very angry. He was more angry that the Roman Catholic priest had actually preached at the service, which was packed of course. He didn't seem to worry about the gay bit really, although later on he told me that he was very angry with

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me for not telling him and he wanted to know who was there. He wanted a whole list of all the clergy and of course I didn't give it to him. He just kept saying, keep quiet, because we had two or three hundred homeless people a day in the crypt of St Bottles every day and he said, you'll wreck the homeless work and we don't want you to be so open about being gay.

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Well, I wasn't banging a drum really, I mean I just did things more quietly. I used to go on the gay pride march, you know, but that was about all that I did. Gerald came round to understanding what I was doing. He was very kind. In fact, he offered me St Bottoff Allgate in 1973 without knowing the full story, although John Hester,

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the vicar of Soho, did tell him. He said, you know what Malcolm is doing, don't you? And Gerald said no. He said, well he's mainly working with the gay community and Gerald didn't say anything. He inducted me and then he came for a confirmation, came to lunch afterwards. About six months later he took me into the dining room and sat me down.

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He said, now tell me all about this. You were married. I said, yes I was. You have a partner. Yes I have. Tell me about the work that you do. So I told him and he was quite understanding. I was very fond of him because again he could have been, he couldn't really sack me because I had freehold of course and I hadn't done anything technically wrong. I suppose having

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a partner was wrong but he didn't sack me. But of course then he retired and I had that ghastly creature Graham Leonard as Bishop of London who was meant to be so wonderful pastorally and wasn't. And he was always telling me off. I've had this letter about you, you know, all that sort of I was area dean and he got George Cassidy to be his archdeacon. Everybody wanted me to be the

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archdeacon of London because I was the area dean but he wouldn't have that. He sent for me and said I can't make you archdeacon. He didn't say why but it's pretty obvious. And George Cassidy found out that LGCM had an office in the tower and so of course told me to get them out. I remember all that and I actually wrote to you. Did you? To thank you for your work and your

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support and all the rest of it. Long before I'd accepted myself that I'm gay and certainly hadn't told anybody else. It was a tremendous publicity because in the end of course George Cassidy won. There was a hilarious consistory court where I was told how naughty I was. The rectum has done terrible harm, something like that the judge said. Silly old man. I saw him in

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Atheneum the following week. I nearly pushed him down the stairs. I wanted to push him down the stairs. So they had to go of course. We had a special service which Ken Leach and Lionel Blue preached at and they moved to Oxford House. Let's talk a bit about the formation of GCM as it was. You were one of the prime movers is that right? Yes I was. And who were you

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working with? Jim Cotter who's just died of course which is so sad. Kennedy Tom, Peter Ellers who I was not very fond of. He was so camp. He was married of course which rather sort of muddled the waters really. But we met at Southwark Cathedral chapter house and said that we really ought to found a Christian

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gay movement. There was one. I've forgotten what it was called but it was absolutely no good at all. And so from that meeting at Southwark Cathedral chapter house we decided that we would form GCM as it was then. And the first meeting as I say was at St Bottles and the first service was at St Bottles. And then I offered them a room in the tower.

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And what was the reaction among gay Christians to the foundation of the movement? Well it was wonderful because the first meeting, the first service people turned up who I didn't know were gay. Right. And there they were sitting there in the pews and I thought go this is terrific. And people were obviously very glad that there was a Christian

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voice because there were lots of other voices like gay live. So yes I think they were very pleased. And what was the, what were the kind of founding principles? What did you hope that the organisation would achieve? Well I would have to look up the, whatever the statement was for LGCM but it was that they would,

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we would try and affect churches views on gay people and also support gay people. And I was very keen that there should be worship so that gay people could worship together. And we had a gay carol service which does sound terribly funny now doesn't it? But there were hundreds came. And we had a gay lib service in June. And I wanted us to worship together

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because the gay clergy consultation, the most moving thing about that was the service, the Eucharist at the beginning. There would be something like 70 or 80 of us all standing in a circle and we received communion together. It was very moving. Just thinking about where to take the conversation next. And all this was happening at the same time

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as St Bottles was continuing work among homeless people. Yes and expanding. We had no staff when I went there. Only volunteers. So I had to get some staff. And I got the most wonderful social workers led by a man called Daley Maxwell. And then an administrator. I left that too late. A man called Richard Bash came along.

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I was keen to get the social workers in the crypt with the men. Morning, afternoon and evening. And we rather went upside down with the administration. So I then hired an administrator and that was Richard. And everything evened up again. And where was the funding coming from?

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Well I had to go around with my hat begging money from parishes. A lot of parishes sent us harvest goodies and money. Then I went to the City Corporation and they gave us a good slice thanks to the director who was Elizabeth Crowther, who I'm still in touch with. She was very helpful. And then I went to the DHSS

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and said please cough up. And we started founding hostels. We had four hostels. And so we then had to have special appeals for the hostels as they were opened. I don't think that our work with the gay community affected the homeless work. One or two people withdrew. But the two main...

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In terms of supporters withdrew, yeah. Two people withdrew who then came back to us again. And I had to go and explain to them what we were doing. They just didn't know what we were up to. And I don't think it affected the homeless work at all. And it was a disaster. After I left, the man who took over called Brian Lee,

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let it all collapse. The homeless work. I haven't forgiven him for that. Because it meant the hostels went back to their housing associations. But the work in the crypt finished. And if you go in the crypt today, it's empty. It's a stall. Gosh. I'm still thought of St Botolph as a centre of social action.

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No, it all finished. I was terribly upset about it. I'd moved on to be master of the Royal Foundation of St Catherine, which was a conference house. The Queen Mum was the boss. She would come twice a year. She was very keen on us working with the East End. I would go to lunch. But I, of course, had left St Botolph. And my successor just let it go.

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So how long were you at St Botolph for? 18 years. Oh, right. Gosh, a long time. 18 years.

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And what might you describe as the highlights during those 18 years? We had the Queen turn up. She came to a service. And she was very flattering about the work in the crypt and asked to meet some of the customers and some of the volunteers. That was a big highlight. And Princess Alexandra came twice.

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There was the flower seller from... Nilly Ellis. She was lovely. She'd been at the siege of Sydney Street. And she came into the church during the Queen's service, went up into the balcony and fell over the drums and sat in the choir.

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And the Queen said to me, who is that wonderful woman? Well, I said, that's Nelly Ellis. I told her all about her. Nelly then came to the reception in the school, without a ticket, by the way, went straight up to the Queen and curtsied and said, I'm Nelly Ellis.

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The Queen said, I know you are. And I've heard all about you. Wonderful. So could you say something about how the gay Christian movement developed and what your involvement was with that?

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Well, I was never on the committee. I decided that I'd be the host at St Bottas. We shared a secretary called Fiona Morgan. And then when Richard Kirker came, we had our own secretary and he looked after LGCM. I mean, my job really was more counselling and supporting Richard Kirker, really.

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So the counselling, did that... ...did it increase with the issues over the period? Did it increase? What kind of issues were people bringing? Well, a lot of gay people who couldn't put their faith and their sexuality together.

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So I decided to hire a full-time counsellor. John Lee appeared, who is a counsellor, fully trained. Is that the John Lee who's the appointment secretary? That's right.

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Yes. And his marriage had just broken up. And I did know him. I'd known him as a student. And he came to me and we talked. And he said he was going to get remarried. And he introduced me to Sue, the wife.

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And he started workers' counselling. And that took a lot of stuff off me. Except, of course, he'd always say to me, I'm always being chased around the room. He said, people think there's more on offer than counselling.

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Because he wasn't gay, you see. He isn't gay. And I used to say to him, well, you're so lucky. Nobody chases me around the room. So there's the issue around bringing together faith and sexuality.

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Yes. Any other kind of issues that people were... No, I think that was it. Because we were a church. And people would assume that we would be able to help them

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put their faith and sexuality together. No, I think that was the main thing. John helped enormously because, of course, it gave me more time to... We had two schools. I was chairman of both the schools.

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And so I had quite a lot of work on, from the education point of view, and I'm very fond of John. He's more like a brother to me than anybody else. And we still meet regularly.

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He's just retired. Has he? Yes. I'm just thinking about the emergence of the Metropolitan Church, for example,

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as a kind of alternative church for gay people, many of whom have been quite wounded by their experience of the Church of England. What's your... How would you react to that? I mean, would you have encouraged somebody...

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Because the Metropolitan Church started back in the... Yes. I had Troy Perry come to St Barthol's, and then he sent along a priest who was actually Anglican, but he was working with the Metropolitan Church.

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And he said to me, what are we going to do? I said, well, you can use our premises. I made the fatal mistake of asking Bishop Gerald Ellison if the Metropolitan Church could use our premises,

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say, in the Sunday evenings when we didn't have anything. And he interviewed... I've forgotten who he... What the name of the priest was, but he came with very good references from his bishop.

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And Gerald said, no, I don't want Metropolitan Church in St Barthol's. I shouldn't have asked him. I learned very quickly... Because he couldn't really have told you not to, could he?

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And he knew that as well as anybody else, yeah. So, would you have urged people to stick with the Church of England? Oh, yes, yes, yes. I think that's what I was trying to do, was to say,

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we are welcoming, some are not, but we are, so come and join us. Right, so after 18 years at St Barthol's, what year does that take you? 74, I'm sorry, no, no.

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74's? Sorry, that's when I went to St Barthol's. 74, 84, 88, 89. Right.

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I went... the Bishop of London, who by then was David Hope, thought the only place for me would be St Catherine's because it was like a conference house. But the governors and I didn't get on at all.

00:40:14.760 - 00:40:29.060

They were very classy and they didn't understand the gay thing at all. But I didn't, I tried very hard not to make it a gay centre. We used to have lots of funerals because HIV had started. Yes, yes.

00:40:29.140 - 00:40:47.700

And we had lots of funerals at St Catherine's in the chapel. But the governors were never, ever supportive and they used the fact that I didn't live in, because I only lived up the road about a mile away, to get rid of me.

00:40:48.420 - 00:40:59.000

Oh, right. And after, I think it was about five years, Richard Charters sent for me. Well, he didn't send for me, he said, I want to come and see you.

00:40:59.340 - 00:41:05.500

And came one morning at half past seven. And he said they... On his way to work? They want you to leave.

00:41:06.260 - 00:41:18.740

Right. So, I mean, it was like, I knew that something was going on but I didn't know they wanted me out and they wanted me out. And it took nine months to get me out because I got my lawyer

00:41:19.300 - 00:41:36.260

and I said, John Underwood, please, get a good deal. The alternatives were to give me 70,000 quid and go, so they must have wanted me to go, or to give the diocese 70,000 quid

00:41:36.260 - 00:41:49.100

and I could go to another church and do counselling work. And that, of course, is what happened. Richard Charters said, I don't want you to give up being a priest. I did apply for two jobs.

00:41:49.260 - 00:42:05.600

One was to be in charge of Christmas. But I didn't go through with the interview because Richard Charters said, go to St Martin's in the Fields, have a room there.

00:42:05.780 - 00:42:16.620

Nick Holtam was the vicar. And I could see people there. It also meant that I could start writing books. And I wrote a book about St Bottles.

00:42:17.420 - 00:42:34.420

Then I wrote a book about a Bishop of London, Blumfield, who was a reformer in the early 19th century. I loved doing that because all the research was terrific, you know. I wondered why, when you went to Fulham Palace,

00:42:34.540 - 00:42:39.540

and you record this in the diary, Yes. you talk about Stopforth. Stopford, yes.

00:42:39.540 - 00:42:46.780

Stopforth, looking up at the picture of Blumfield. Blumfield, yes. And saying, what would he say? And I thought to myself, as I read it,

00:42:47.060 - 00:42:56.560

well, why did the Bishop ask that question? Now I know the answer. I mean, Blumfield would have been horrified, of course, but that was a different era.

00:42:57.180 - 00:43:06.800

But he was always unpopular. He reformed the Church of England, top to bottom. Founded the church commissioners. Oh, right.

00:43:07.720 - 00:43:24.760

And has been neglected. Was that what your PhD was on? No, the PhD was on crypts and graveyards in London. How much did the church get from funerals?

00:43:25.280 - 00:43:38.360

Oh, right. And we found nearly 40% of the income up to 1852 came from funerals. So what happened in 1852? The law was passed that there was no one was to be buried

00:43:38.360 - 00:43:49.440

in a churchyard in London anymore, nor in the crypts. Right. All finished. So my PhD was to try and discover what happened then.

00:43:50.560 - 00:44:04.260

Well, of course, some of them made homeless centres. Some of them made restaurants. And I enjoyed doing that very much indeed. I was really too old to do it, but I did enjoy it.

00:44:04.300 - 00:44:17.280

I think you've got the pink dressing gown. Then, you know, you clearly weren't too old to do it. My supervisor was a man called Arthur Burns. He was terrific.

00:44:18.720 - 00:44:33.300

He really encouraged me and helped me to... And Robert decided in the end what the thesis should be. Because what Arthur said was we don't want history of the churches. We want a thesis.

00:44:34.300 - 00:44:45.540

Robert said, well, the thesis should be that the church benefited financially from burials. And then suddenly it all stopped. So what happened?

00:44:48.700 - 00:44:57.940

So let's just think about the St Catherine's bit for a moment. Yes. It doesn't sound like it was a particularly easy time. No, it wasn't.

00:44:58.740 - 00:45:14.380

I was meant to form a community of nuns and friars. Three friars came, who I knew, and four nuns. The nuns were never happy. Quarrelled with the friars, quarrelled with me.

00:45:15.280 - 00:45:25.360

And it was a very unhappy time. I tried very hard. We had a support group to try and help people to talk to one another, you know. But it didn't work.

00:45:26.120 - 00:45:35.280

And I had to ask the sisters to leave. Well, of course, the governors were furious. Why have you asked them to go? I said, well, they don't do anything.

00:45:36.300 - 00:45:48.600

They just sit around and groan and complain. So they've got to go. So they were very angry at that. So then I had to go.

00:45:49.080 - 00:45:58.800

Now there's no community. They were obsessed by St Catherine's having a community. Well, the Murfield fathers had been there before, hadn't they? Yes, yes.

00:45:58.800 - 00:46:11.780

They were there with some sisters, Deaconess community of St Andrew. Oh, yes, that's right. They were a community. But then you see, if you're not working together,

00:46:12.720 - 00:46:25.520

who else would want to come and be in a community like that? Everybody who turned up was slightly odd. And they didn't stay very long, of course. Yes, well, there's a parable there, isn't there?

00:46:25.540 - 00:46:33.140

Yes, there is. And now it's a very smart conference centre. It is. And I regret that because it's commercial now.

00:46:33.680 - 00:46:43.540

It's not the place that I first went to on retreat. No, exactly. In fact, the first time I went there, it was a retreat being led by Kennedy Tom. Oh, really, yes.

00:46:43.780 - 00:46:57.580

And I went to talk to him and he pointed me to the community house in Nottingham that I was telling you about. Really, yes. So that was a life-changing experience for me then.

00:46:57.780 - 00:47:11.120

Was I the master then? I don't think you were. That would have been 80... Augustine Howey was there and then one of the Murfield fathers, Christopher Lowe.

00:47:11.780 - 00:47:22.160

Yes, I think it was Murfield. It was 82, I should think. Yes, it probably would have been then, yes. I think that's what it was.

00:47:22.620 - 00:47:34.900

I was at university. So you made reference to the number of funerals through HIV. Yes. How did...

00:47:35.960 - 00:47:50.080

It really was a terrible time. And I put in the book that I began to realise what the chaplains in the two world wars had to go through with all the young men dying. They were all young men, of course.

00:47:50.080 - 00:48:02.180

They were... It was terrible, absolutely awful. I got fond of them, of course. And I'd get calls like, will you take my funeral?

00:48:02.940 - 00:48:19.720

And I said, well, tell me, when is it? Well, I haven't died yet, he said, but I'd like you to do it. So then, of course, I would go and see the person. And I would see his other half, who would, of course, usually follow him within a year.

00:48:20.520 - 00:48:34.440

It was terrible. And were these people that you already knew well? No, well, some were. But mostly they just came because they knew that I was involved in counselling.

00:48:36.600 - 00:48:47.640

And I was very angry with the governors at St Catharine's for not realising the importance of the work. Nobody else was doing it. Well, they were.

00:48:47.740 - 00:49:04.040

David Randall was obviously doing some. I felt very angry with them. Yes, I mean, I suppose... It was...

00:49:04.040 - 00:49:16.440

It must have been very difficult for the establishment, as it were, to... Well, it was difficult for everybody to come to terms with what was happening, but... Yes. For the establishment, it must have been even harder, I suppose.

00:49:17.140 - 00:49:31.920

They... All of us had, of course, had to learn what HIV-AIDS was. I remember the first time we had someone to supper who had HIV, Robert said, do we throw the plates away afterwards?

00:49:32.040 - 00:49:41.360

Do we throw the cutlery away? People didn't know. And we had to find out and tell people. There's a...

00:49:41.360 - 00:50:03.400

The first conference for clergy was put on by two of my assistants at St Botolph's, and it was put on at King's College, and about 250 people turned up. And we had the Bishop of Edinburgh came.

00:50:04.400 - 00:50:14.980

He was hilarious. You've probably read in the book. He said, I always thought rimming and frottage were West Country solicitors. It's such a lovely story.

00:50:15.980 - 00:50:33.220

Was that Richard Holloway? Yes. Can you describe the personal impact of HIV? I was terrified I'd catch it, of course.

00:50:33.500 - 00:50:47.540

I have been a naughty boy in my time. Robert and I have a fairly open relationship. And I remember when we went on holiday to Venice, looking in the mirror and thinking that this will be my last holiday.

00:50:48.520 - 00:51:03.260

It was about 1982, 83. I bet I've got it, you know. And I was always frightened that I would catch it. Obviously, once I knew what you had to do,

00:51:03.260 - 00:51:14.660

I took the necessary precautions. But it upset me terribly. The funerals upset me greatly. Because, of course, I did get to know the men.

00:51:15.980 - 00:51:34.260

There were about 50 funerals I took. Because when I left St Martin's, when I retired in 2001, I invited all the parents and the other halves, if they were still alive. And there were 50 people.

00:51:34.700 - 00:51:49.400

And we remembered them in the prayers. Yes, it was a terrible time. David Randall was marvellous. He founded an organisation called CARA,

00:51:50.300 - 00:52:00.260

which helped with people affected by the virus. And then he had the virus and he died. And I had to take his funeral. That was terrible.

00:52:02.140 - 00:52:12.220

I have a distant memory of a television documentary about a priest in Yorkshire. Oh, that was Simon Bailey. Was it?

00:52:12.320 - 00:52:20.360

Who I knew, yes. I didn't know who it was. He wrote a book about it. His sister wrote the book.

00:52:21.000 - 00:52:28.880

But he had HIV. But you see, if a priest had HIV, very often his congregation didn't know. Yeah.

00:52:29.640 - 00:52:41.040

We had one in Kensington who, even today, they blame me for not telling them. Well, I couldn't tell them, could I? And I preached at the funeral and didn't mention it.

00:52:41.320 - 00:52:55.060

We said he had cancer, but he did. But it was HIV, really. And what was the impact of the famous government advertising campaign? Do you have any memories of that?

00:52:55.540 - 00:53:08.440

I don't really know. Maggie Thatcher was very keen, wasn't she, to educate people. I'm not sure. I don't know whether it had any effect or not.

00:53:08.460 - 00:53:25.380

Well, I think now it's held up as being the most effective advertising campaign in the world at the time. And people now are saying, perhaps we could do with another advertising campaign.

00:53:25.500 - 00:53:34.360

Yes, yes. Because patterns of behaviour have slipped. And OK, you can live with HIV, but it's not consequence-free. Right.

00:53:36.120 - 00:53:48.580

But that's running forward to today. Yes. I'm not involved anymore, and I'm rather glad I'm not. All I do at the moment is take funerals, but not HIV.

00:53:50.060 - 00:53:57.360

But hash cash is very helpful. Yes, indeed, yes. And I dare say that the Church of England around here couldn't survive without people like you.

00:53:58.940 - 00:54:17.500

So the last few months at St Catherine's must have been quite difficult. They were very difficult. And I had to decide whether I would take the money and run, or whether we'd pay the diocese and I'd have an office at St Martin's.

00:54:17.780 - 00:54:41.440

I'm so glad I went to St Martin's because Nick Holton was very welcoming. I preached once a month, which of course is an experience, preaching at St Martin's. I enjoyed very much being there. And was your counselling work under the umbrella of St Martin's, or was it...?

00:54:41.440 - 00:54:56.320

No, it just... My official title was Bishop of London's Advisor on Pastoral Care. He didn't ever refer one person to me, not one. And didn't ask for your advice?

00:54:57.500 - 00:55:06.340

No. Oh, well. I didn't mind because I've got enough work to do. So tell me, you were busy, were you?

00:55:06.460 - 00:55:21.160

Yeah, very busy, yes. People just knew that I was around. I did a lot of spiritual direction, which sounds very sort of Victorian, doesn't it? But I did enjoy spiritual direction.

00:55:21.880 - 00:55:34.880

And a lot of clergy came and a lot of ordinary lay people came. And I'm still in touch with some of them. But I don't see them now officially, regularly, like I did. People would come, say, every two months.

00:55:36.700 - 00:55:47.900

And I enjoyed that. And the gay aspect of the counselling, did that continue? Yes, oh yes, very much. Right up until the point that you retired?

00:55:48.200 - 00:55:53.680

Yes, it did. Same issues? Sorry? The same issues were being brought?

00:55:53.680 - 00:56:07.280

Same issues, yes, same issues. Feeling extremely... Clergy, of course, had particular problems because, as I put in the book, the church is a dangerous place to be for a gay priest, really.

00:56:09.160 - 00:56:14.920

Yeah. Don't ask, don't tell. That's what they say, isn't it? Don't ask, don't tell.

00:56:15.080 - 00:56:25.000

Yeah. And that's so pathetic, isn't it? When a church should be open about everything. Dear.

00:56:26.400 - 00:56:44.140

I was wondering, when we were talking about your visit to Fulham Palace, was the bishop using a don't ask, don't tell policy then, do you think? I don't think he had a policy on gay people because he didn't know any. Right, okay.

00:56:44.140 - 00:56:57.940

That's why he was asking me all these questions. He had me go and see him twice to say, how do gay people see the church? What do you think ought to be done about gay clergy? He was wonderful, but of course he was near retired.

00:56:58.840 - 00:57:08.340

So then Gerald Ellison... Yes. ...saying to you, you know, don't talk about it so much. Why don't you keep quiet?

00:57:08.460 - 00:57:17.260

Why don't you keep quiet? I don't tell people what Mrs Ellison and I do in bed. Sleep, I should think. I never thought of that. I thought it was so funny.

00:57:17.820 - 00:57:31.720

But I wonder if that's the beginning of the kind of don't ask, don't tell. Could be, yes, could be. Yes, he didn't really want to know, I don't think. He was hoping I'd keep quiet.

00:57:33.480 - 00:57:46.260

Because it'd be much easier, actually, if this whole issue was, you know, confined to the closet. I have no doubt at all that if I hadn't got Parsons Freehold, somehow they would have got me out of St Botol, somehow. Yeah.

00:57:47.700 - 00:58:06.160

I think Graham Leonard would. And he used to get very angry with me. And in Area Dean's meetings, I would say to him, you know, George Cassidy is making a mistake. George would be sitting there as the Archdeacon, you know,

00:58:06.380 - 00:58:20.480

this is not the way to operate. And then he'd go off the handle. He'd say, you don't know what pressure he's under. You won't have me for much longer, he used to say.

00:58:20.760 - 00:58:32.840

I'm going to retire and then you'll miss me. And oh, goodness, the Area Dean's meetings were very interesting. Yes, and then, of course, George Cassidy became Bishop of Southwell. I know.

00:58:32.980 - 00:58:42.860

And I was at that stage an incumbent in Southwell. And we were in fear and trembling of what he was going to do. I know. Coming to Southwell.

00:58:43.080 - 00:58:55.520

So, in fact, he didn't do very much, really. Well, they got rid of him from St Paul's. That's how they somehow or other persuaded someone to make him a bishop because they couldn't stand him at St Paul's.

00:58:55.740 - 00:59:01.580

Shove him upstairs. Sorry? Shove him upstairs. That's exactly what happened, yes.

00:59:03.020 - 00:59:28.460

He was a typical Ulsterman Protestant and he used to use all sorts of nasty tactics. He said to me at a party once, it was a party which John Gladwin was giving. He said, I think you'll have to offer your resignation to Graham. You're upsetting him so much and he's ill and he was ill at that time.

00:59:29.100 - 00:59:40.480

I said, are you saying to me that I've made him ill? Yes, he said, I am. So I went to see Graham and I said, George says I've been making you ill. Is that true?

00:59:40.780 - 00:59:56.820

No, he said, of course not. But they were nasty times. I didn't enjoy those meetings of clergy. And the whole thing about the Consistory Court was terribly high profile, wasn't it?

00:59:56.820 - 01:00:09.900

Yes, it was, yes. I don't know whether it was high profile outside the church. I mean, I was certainly, you know, very aware of... Oh, it was front page on all the Times, the Telegraph, and goodness knows what else.

01:00:10.460 - 01:00:32.620

And of course the diocesan clergy, I forget how many of them, wrote to Graham and said they would not be paying their quota. Oh, yes. And I was told to pay the Archdeacon's fees, which was £17,000, as well as my own.

01:00:33.880 - 01:00:55.340

But the diocese didn't ever come to collect the money from me. That was because of Heywood, Derek Heywood. He was the General Secretary and he hinted to me, I'm not going to trace you for the money. But of course, I received quite a lot of money from supporters, including Rowan.

01:00:55.760 - 01:01:07.660

Oh, right. Rowan sent me £250. Right. And he published a press release, Rowan,

01:01:08.480 - 01:01:18.540

saying the Diocese of London is behaving very badly indeed. And at that stage he was...? Lady Margaret Professor. Right, okay, yeah.

01:01:18.540 - 01:01:30.560

At Oxford. Yeah. Right, so we've talked about St Martin-in-the-Fields, and then you retire. Retired, yes.

01:01:30.660 - 01:01:41.080

And did you stop all...? I did, really, yes. Yes, I did. I told everybody who came to me that really I couldn't.

01:01:41.720 - 01:01:54.540

I was living in Shepparton. There was nowhere I could see them and I did want to finish. Yeah. And I've been very happy in retirement, doing the books, as I've done seven books,

01:01:55.380 - 01:02:13.380

and doing the funerals. Although, you may laugh, the funerals give me a pastoral sort of dimension, because you never know who you're going to turn up with, classy people or people who are very poor. Yeah, yeah.

01:02:13.780 - 01:02:32.220

Who've never met a clergyman before. I get all the ones that, you know, not church. Yeah, yeah. And, I mean, I was certainly enormously grateful of retired clergy who took funerals wherever I was.

01:02:33.480 - 01:02:47.220

Because there's an awful lot of work to do, isn't there? Yes, and I enjoy the work, and I will follow it up if I can. If I can. And I think so often parochial clergy just don't have the time to do that, do they?

01:02:47.560 - 01:03:00.840

No, no. I took Eric Sykes' funeral, which was hilarious. And then we had the memorial service at St Martin's. And I still see his widow every two or three months.

01:03:01.440 - 01:03:12.720

She's lovely, she really is. So I do try and follow up. So... Would you like another coffee or tea or something?

01:03:12.720 - 01:03:27.100

I'm fine, actually, thank you. I think we've nearly finished. I think we've nearly finished, yes. Yes, I just wanted to ask about your reflections over the last kind of 40 years or so.

01:03:27.200 - 01:03:34.500

Yes. I mean, clearly lots has changed. Yes. But quite a lot hasn't changed as well.

01:03:36.260 - 01:04:01.820

Well, you only have to look at the fact that the primates have suspended the church in North America to realise that things haven't changed very much. Because they have openly gay bishops, and they are not bothered about gay clergy. And the times I've been to America, I've been

01:04:01.820 - 01:04:19.520

very impressed by the Episcopal Church over there. They give, they really do give money and time. And for the primates to do that, and well be to agree to it, shows that we really haven't moved very far.

01:04:20.560 - 01:04:37.120

And although we've got six diocesan bishops who are gay, not one of them would dare say they are. Yeah. And if you are openly gay now, you're in trouble, I think, really.

01:04:38.160 - 01:05:08.860

And it's when you want another job, that you're really in trouble. Yes, I did six months in the Diocese of Newark in New Jersey, when Jack Spohn... Oh, he's wonderful, isn't he? The bishop. And it was the autumn of 98, after the Lambeth Conference.

01:05:09.400 - 01:05:21.340

And they'd all come back from the Lambeth Conference, feeling bruised by the experience. I'm sure. And there was a big clergy gathering.

01:05:22.060 - 01:05:37.200

And at the end, I stood up and said, I wonder if I could just give an English perspective on this. Because you can talk openly in 1998 about gay people in the church, whether clergy or not.

01:05:37.680 - 01:05:51.000

We can't even have that conversation in England. No. And I was given a rousing applause, which is quite moving, really. When you think that he was a Virginian, wasn't he?

01:05:51.020 - 01:05:59.140

Mm-hmm. A redneck Virginian. Yeah, extraordinary. He came to stay with Robert and I, and with his wife, and we had a whale of a time.

01:05:59.560 - 01:06:10.460

He invited us for Thanksgiving, but somebody'd already invited us, so we couldn't go, which was a shame. But there we are. Well, Malcolm, thank you very much for having this conversation.

01:06:10.920 - 01:06:13.360

Pleasure, pleasure. We'll turn this thing off.