00:00:02.420 - 00:00:22.660

Okay, we're ready. Can you tell me your full name, please? Frances Anne Jackson. Known as Peggy. Where and when were you born? I was born in Loughborough, in Leicestershire. 1st August, 1951.

00:00:24.880 - 00:00:41.940

Where did your mother go to school? Croydon High School. Girls' Public Day School Trust. Did she go on to further or higher education, or to vocational training? Yep, she went to Holloway College, London. She did a general science degree.

00:00:43.320 - 00:01:01.580

And then she became a nurse, trained at St Thomas', nightingale nurse. Then she got married and stopped nursing for 20 plus years, like many women of that generation did. Thank you. Did you have any women relatives in full or part-time work?

00:01:05.860 - 00:01:34.820

I didn't have many women relatives. Uncles, two uncles. My grandmother didn't work after she got married. My father's mother was a vicar's wife. Married relatively late and had been a missionary before that. This isn't in the big script. Where to? Where was she a missionary?

00:01:34.840 - 00:01:49.140

Oh, South India. Madras, as it then was. Did you have any siblings? Two older brothers. And you told me where you went to school?

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No, I went to the local county primary and then on to the local grammar school. What about your brothers? They went to local state primaries. And then there was some family money from the church, a trust through the church,

00:02:13.520 - 00:02:28.980

from my vicar grandfather. And they were paid through the local grammar school, but fee-paying. They neededn't have been, they could have just taken the 11 plus like I did. In fact they were fee-paying.

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Did you all go on to further higher education after grammar school? Yeah, my older brother was a civil engineer at Liverpool University. My second brother went to Edinburgh and trained as a vet. What about you?

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And I went to Oxford to do history. And then I moved down to London and trained as a chartered accountant. Were you a church-going family? No, not by the time I came along.

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Only when I was a little one, up to age 10 or so. Right, that's the end of that. The family never went. Did your attitudes to religion change in adolescence?

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Yeah, I just told everybody I was an atheist. I was taken to church with my mum when I was tiny. I remember sitting wondering what she was doing when she sat with her head down. She had a funny expression on her face.

00:03:44.900 - 00:04:01.240

Didn't take much notice of it. Sunday school was just like school school and I enjoyed it well enough. And then somewhere around the time I went to secondary school, I announced I was an atheist and I, as it were, they breathed a sigh of relief

00:04:01.240 - 00:04:17.640

and we never had to go to church again. When did you leave your childhood home? Really when I went to university. I never went back to live permanently after. And what was your first job?

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My very first job was a temporary one working for Oxfam for a year, filling in time, and then I went up to train for a chartered accountant in London, in the city. Were either of your parents, or both, interested in politics? Not really, no.

00:04:42.220 - 00:04:53.520

What newspapers were read? The Daily Telegraph. My parents read the Daily Telegraph so my dad could do the crossword. My mother did the crossword. That was the reason she took it, yeah.

00:04:55.140 - 00:05:14.480

Can you describe your experience of being called to ministry? And what do you think drew you to the ministry? Oh, right. Well, there by hangs a bit of a tale. I married straight from university. We moved to London.

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He worked for the FT. I trained as a chartered accountant. He's a Scot, so he wanted to go back up to Scotland, so we moved to Edinburgh. I had my daughter up there after a few years. When she was 13 months, he left, and that was the big trauma.

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I became a single parent at age 29 or so. That was, well, everything changed. A conscious decision not to return to the parents, which was one option, in other words, to surround, and to say, well, wherever I am, I'm in Edinburgh now, this is where I live, this is where I make a home,

00:06:03.320 - 00:06:26.920

and find out how I can cope. Horrible time for a couple of years, really horrible. And then, somewhere in the depths of that, crept into the back of the cathedral in Edinburgh, the Episcopal Cathedral. And I think I wondered, well, it was a sort of last resort.

00:06:27.120 - 00:06:45.060

I thought, well, maybe God could make it all right. If I say sorry enough times, maybe that will sort things. Well, it didn't in that way, anyway. But what I did find there were people who were very unlike any church people I'd ever met before,

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and this was 20 years since I'd been to church, really, or 10 years, I don't know. No, nearly 20. And I had a conversion experience, I suppose, actually. So I was very embarrassed about it all.

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Didn't tell anybody. Didn't tell anybody. And started going to church, you know. I just kind of wept my way through the first six months.

00:07:08.240 - 00:07:21.600

Then was confirmed as an adult. Much to my family's embarrassment, really. They didn't know what to make of it at all. And 18 months after that,

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well, there was a sense of things have got to change. I've got to change what I'm doing with my life, really. And I went to talk to the provost, who said, well, you've told me now.

00:07:42.520 - 00:07:56.560

Let's just let it all sink away and see what emerges. And I thought I might... I tried thinking what would be a chartered accountant if I was a different sort of chartered accountant,

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instead of making money for other people, trying to do something good with it. Investigated that. And then, by chance, the curate in Edinburgh said...

00:08:06.520 - 00:08:16.560

The curate in Edinburgh said... And I thought, well, I might go to a new college, do a theology degree and teach theology. That would be a change of direction.

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Couldn't get any money. I got a place, but I couldn't get any money. Curate said, why don't you go down to England? Because they've got educational trusts.

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Try where your parents are, and see if they've got any trusts that can pay money. So I went down there, met the vicar, on the low Sunday, the weekend of low Sunday,

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when you shouldn't... Vicars shouldn't be at work anyway. He happened to be the DDO for Leicester Diocese. I sat down in the room with him and said,

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I was thinking about this money thing, and he said, I think we should send you to Ackham. And I genuinely had not even asked. But that was the selection conference

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from the neighbourhood at the time. So I went back up to Edinburgh and said, they're going to send me to Ackham. They said, what?

00:09:05.760 - 00:09:11.740

I said, well, if you think I shouldn't go, I won't go. I actually didn't ask. I wasn't expecting that at all.

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I didn't know even what it meant, really. And they were very wise, these folks in Edinburgh. They were very lovely. And the provost said, no, go.

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Go, why not? Go and see what happens. So this was 1980? 85.

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85. And I said, well, should I do some preparation? People smile these days. And he said, no.

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Just be your best self. And so I went to this conference. I told my work I was going to leave. I gave a year's notice.

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I didn't know what I was going to do. I just knew I was going to leave the job. I mean, that was God, really. Now I can say that.

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It happened while I was praying. And I just thought, no, leave your job. I know I'm going to leave the job. I went to the selection conference

00:10:05.540 - 00:10:13.560

not pretending at all because I was woefully ignorant. I really didn't know why I was there. I was only there because this guy sent me there,

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which is what I said to them. And they sort of strewn me out on the carpet and sent me home again. And I thought, well, that's it.

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There's no problem there then. And I went back to Edinburgh and said, no way they're going to do it. And they just said, well, wait and see.

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And they gave me a provisional discernment to start training. And I'd had to get a place lined up in a college in case I got through this thing.

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So I had Cudston, Rippon College, Cudston. So I went to this conference at the beginning of September. In the middle of September, I heard that I was going to go forward.

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Two weeks later, I left my job on one day and went to Cudston the next. There you go. Crazy.

00:11:06.000 - 00:11:13.140

Tumbling in. Literally tumbling in. I'd never seen the old alternative service book in the Church of England

00:11:13.140 - 00:11:22.100

because I'd never been to the Church of England. And when I arrived at the Theological College to start training for the ministry, I didn't really know what I was doing.

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And I was, in theory, going to be a deaconess then because that's all women could be. So I thought, okay, I'll be a deaconess, whatever that is.

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I'll be it if you want me to. It seems extraordinary now. But at the time, there was a hand at work in it

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because I was available. I was perfectly sensible. If the thing had come apart, I'd have gone off and been an accountant again somewhere.

00:11:54.600 - 00:12:09.180

It wasn't nearly as dramatic as it sort of sounds. In today's church, it just sounds completely crazy. It couldn't happen. Were you inspired by any women in the Bible

00:12:09.180 - 00:12:22.980

or by a passage in the Bible that made you think that this would be a good path for you? No. Fine.

00:12:23.600 - 00:12:32.220

Didn't know my Bible well enough. I don't know my Bible very well. There were some... I was trying to think

00:12:32.220 - 00:12:41.680

if there were any women in the ministry. There were some very nice women around who I talked to. But it wasn't...

00:12:41.680 - 00:12:50.960

No, it wasn't like that at all. Now this question isn't entirely new. Which college did you go to and was it for men and women?

00:12:51.920 - 00:13:00.480

Well, yes, of course, yes. Rippon College, Cudstone. Okay. This was 1985 when I went.

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The very first woman to go to college had passed through in 1980. She was an American because there were no English women.

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And what I knew... Well, there was six of us arrived in college out of a year group of 25 or something like that. What I didn't realise

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that we were numbers... something like numbers 6 to 12 of the women who'd ever been there. But of course, you arrive,

00:13:40.600 - 00:13:52.260

you find the world as you find it. You don't realise how near the beginning of the story we were. But Rippon College, Cudstone, it had a reputation of being very high church

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and it would have opposed any women's development at all. But it was changing, radically changing, and changed while I was there. By the time I left,

00:14:03.040 - 00:14:14.640

the women were a third of the college. That's interesting. What did your studies and training there involve? Well, I came with a history degree

00:14:14.640 - 00:14:27.880

so in a sense I got my academic credentials to be able to study. But I was also well aware I was a single parent. Because I was over 30,

00:14:29.700 - 00:14:41.100

they only allowed me two years to do the training. So I made a conscious decision not to do a theology degree but to spend the time finding out

00:14:41.100 - 00:14:51.100

what it was like being in the Church of England and what ministry was all about. So I did the general ministerial examination, which was six terms,

00:14:51.880 - 00:15:14.220

basically a term on New Testament, Old Testament, ethics, pastoral, theology, liturgy. I can't remember what the sixth one was. We had a term of essay writing and seminars

00:15:14.220 - 00:15:27.900

and wrote a paper at the end of it which was marked for the general ministerial examination. When you finished, how did you apply to become a deacon?

00:15:29.340 - 00:15:40.020

Oh well, by the time you were in college. While I was at college, they passed the legislation to allow women to be deacons.

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So I arrived at college thinking I was training to be a deaconess, whatever that was. When I left,

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we were the first year to not be deaconesses. We were the first year we came out alongside the men as deacons. So it wasn't a matter of applying.

00:15:57.700 - 00:16:09.020

Basically the college ensured that its students had places to have a title. And so the college prepared you and the qualifications were adequate

00:16:09.020 - 00:16:18.180

for the post of deacon. Oh yes, the college training. Well it was exactly the same as the men's of course. The men were all going to swan on through.

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It was exactly the same as the men's. It wasn't easy to find a place to serve my title as a deacon though because, well I came from Edinburgh

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so I didn't have an English diocese and the English diocese where I was sponsored from technically was Leicester which had Richard Rutt

00:16:40.800 - 00:16:49.220

who didn't appoint any women to anything. I think that's why the DDO in Leicester was quite happy to have a woman on the books actually. I think that's probably why it was.

00:16:49.960 - 00:16:59.720

So Leicester hadn't got anything to offer me and the college principal just rang round until we found somewhere that would take me. Derby diocese is where I ended up.

00:17:01.080 - 00:17:10.580

What sorts of questions were you asked to establish whether you were called to the ministry or how you had been called to the ministry? None?

00:17:13.580 - 00:17:27.480

Too personal? No. The DDO never asked me because I wasn't asking to go into ministry.

00:17:29.680 - 00:17:44.760

At the selection conference they must have asked me but they wouldn't have phrased it so crudely because I never asked to go into ministry.

00:17:44.760 - 00:17:56.660

And I do remember saying that the chair of the conference who was meant to do the vocational questions I think she said quite early on

00:17:56.660 - 00:18:08.560

I'm not even going to ask you what a deaconess does because I don't see how we can possibly recommend you. So I thought well you're not supposed to say that. You said at the beginning of the conference

00:18:08.560 - 00:18:17.060

that you weren't going to say that to anybody during it so I thought well I'm so far out the park clearly we're not going to bother about this so if I said anything to anybody

00:18:17.060 - 00:18:26.460

it was only what had happened to me which is really what I've just said here. So it was quite extraordinary. I think this is a really important interview.

00:18:26.900 - 00:18:40.400

Well if I look back now if I heard anybody else talking as I was talking they must have seen something going on in me and I can believe it does happen

00:18:40.400 - 00:18:52.880

when you see other people and what they did say in the feedback from the conference was she's clearly very confused but she's honest

00:18:53.940 - 00:19:02.560

and so we'll send her to college and if it's wrong we know she'll say so which is quite true, that was quite true and after a year in college

00:19:02.560 - 00:19:10.580

I did have to go and have an interview with a nice lady somewhere or other who asked me a few questions she said what's your greatest fear?

00:19:14.280 - 00:19:24.280

I don't know, I haven't remembered this for years she said what's your greatest fear? and I said my greatest fear is that it may all be nothing at all and she said I thought you'd say that

00:19:24.280 - 00:19:34.760

I don't know what that means quite but anyway, basically she was quite happy and I never had any doubts from college onwards

00:19:34.760 - 00:19:47.620

so I was clearly in the right place doing the right thing much to my surprise can you describe the ordination ceremony and how you felt

00:19:47.620 - 00:20:05.100

what it made you feel was that a scared or was that achievement in actually getting there eventually? not in that sort of a sense

00:20:05.100 - 00:20:19.020

because it wasn't an ambition so it didn't feel like I've made it because I wasn't really expecting it it felt entirely right

00:20:25.700 - 00:20:34.940

during college, the second year of college the last year when we were finding out where we were going to go or trying to find a job we were going to go to

00:20:34.940 - 00:20:43.900

to serve our title as deacons everybody I know, including myself had a huge wobble about what on earth are we doing

00:20:45.200 - 00:20:58.160

because, and I was very aware I had Alison in tow she was then 7 no, she was 7 when we went 9 when we left, she was 9 years old

00:20:58.720 - 00:21:09.100

and I thought what I am doing is launching her on a life which is going to be very strange because we're going to move house

00:21:09.100 - 00:21:14.600

she's going to have to move she's going to have to be a vicar's kid live in a vicarage what on earth am I doing

00:21:15.140 - 00:21:24.120

and it was more about an awareness but not much of an awareness about what it's going to be like living in role in a vicarage

00:21:29.600 - 00:21:40.540

so the actual ordination service it was fine because that was in a sense very well prepared for because the huge change of life

00:21:40.540 - 00:21:54.720

style and the whole perception of yourself we'd only had a glimmer of it but what else could you do I was remembering today with colleagues

00:21:54.720 - 00:22:01.280

I've just come from a summer group the bishop at the time preached a sermon there were 6 men and myself

00:22:01.280 - 00:22:08.840

so it was the 7 deacons that year and his sermon was clearly designed for a different service because he said

00:22:08.840 - 00:22:17.040

you are all the wives and daughters of these candidates before you and I thought oh you weren't expecting me then

00:22:21.680 - 00:22:34.900

when you started work as a deacon did you feel welcomed and how difficult was it it was as good as it

00:22:34.900 - 00:22:46.180

yeah it was fine I had a very good training vicar who was very much in favour of women's ordination

00:22:46.180 - 00:22:54.240

and felt I think I subsequently realised he felt as if he was sticking his neck out to say so

00:22:54.240 - 00:22:59.940

but good for him and I appreciated that so I never felt I had to prove anything

00:22:59.940 - 00:23:06.980

for being a woman he once said to me you'll have achieved more by being divorced

00:23:07.780 - 00:23:12.860

and a priest than you will by being a woman and being a priest so that was quite funny

00:23:14.040 - 00:23:21.920

so when were you ordained what year 87 why and when did you decide

00:23:21.920 - 00:23:39.000

you wanted to become a priest yeah I never said to anybody I never felt

00:23:39.940 - 00:23:49.580

as I wanted to be exactly this may be playing with words what I do remember is being on a retreat in Iona

00:23:52.720 - 00:24:04.060

somewhere I don't know between 87 and 92 and realising that I ought to be that's the words that came

00:24:04.060 - 00:24:17.580

I ought to be a priest so it was something about given that I had handed things over to God, straight to church

00:24:18.940 - 00:24:32.860

to do whatever I was supposed to do there was something inadequate about about the diaconate and the reason was because

00:24:36.620 - 00:24:47.040

women being deacons at that time weren't being it wasn't giving the diaconate a good name because it was being used as a device

00:24:47.040 - 00:24:55.440

to keep us out of priesthood and that's not a good way to support your ministers of your church so in a way

00:24:55.440 - 00:25:07.820

it was more about I ought to be a priest and the things about priestly ministry and priestly ordination I guess most of that's come since

00:25:07.820 - 00:25:18.240

actually and preparing for it but very closely preparing for it at the time when it could happen

00:25:18.240 - 00:25:25.800

in between I was just aware that we were in this limbo and people were having conversations with us about permanent diaconate

00:25:25.800 - 00:25:31.440

and we were supposed to have opinions about permanent diaconate well you can't have an opinion about something when you've just been kept there

00:25:31.440 - 00:25:40.460

it's like asking a prisoner to have an opinion about the virtues of being in prison well no, there wasn't any virtue of being there I was there because they were

00:25:40.460 - 00:25:52.640

stopping me being anywhere else To what extent did you feel it was natural when you first began to preach and how did you feel about speaking publicly?

00:25:54.040 - 00:26:07.720

oh scared, scared I was quite good at writing essays being quite academic

00:26:12.060 - 00:26:29.480

I felt really scared because what did I have to offer that was adequate

00:26:34.840 - 00:26:46.660

and the extraordinary presumption of standing up five foot above contradiction or whatever all that sense of having an opinion that people won't answer back

00:26:49.640 - 00:26:57.100

that feels powerful in a way except it didn't feel very powerful at the time but it is a very powerful thing and how dare I really

00:26:58.080 - 00:27:13.760

so that stayed with me ever since actually what right have I to say stuff How has your preaching changed over time? oh

00:27:21.400 - 00:27:36.380

it changed after I was priesthood because all those years of being a deacon in curacy that's what you expect

00:27:36.380 - 00:27:49.480

because you're a curate it's always going to be assistant to somebody but after that I spent some years as effectively a team vicar except that the priesting was in the middle of that time

00:27:50.400 - 00:27:59.320

so when I first took charge of a church within a team I had an NSM who was assigned to do the priestly bit

00:27:59.980 - 00:28:09.100

so as soon as we got to the offertory having led the service, led the church done all the stuff as a vicar would do I had to literally stand to the side

00:28:11.720 - 00:28:22.920

and the preaching then was the biggest thing I could do so the preaching was my preparing for Sunday as it were the climax of my service

00:28:22.920 - 00:28:35.780

in lots of ways was about the sermon I preached because then I stood aside and he got on with it after the priesting all of a sudden those two things coincide

00:28:35.780 - 00:28:56.660

so the sermon is serving the main action of the day which is the communion service most times anyway it's difficult to describe quite how it changes except that a sermon that's got to stand alone

00:28:56.660 - 00:29:05.200

because it's all you've got to give as it were it's very different from a sermon which is drawing people towards

00:29:05.880 - 00:29:20.800

the communion that you're going to share it may not be different in words but I suppose it probably became less academic as time went on

00:29:20.800 - 00:29:43.180

and more courageous I hope in trying to call out or draw out people's faith to awaken people's faith by the story you tell or what you call them to do

00:29:43.180 - 00:29:56.020

whereas when you're not going to carry them all the way through because you're not responsible for the bit that happens later you tend to have to just deliver it and hope that it does its work in itself

00:29:58.160 - 00:30:11.080

that's interesting I think this is something we talked about earlier you met with women clergy of other denominations

00:30:11.080 - 00:30:25.720

or women wanting to be clergy of other denominations and it says did you have significant relationships with women clergy in other countries? no, not particularly

00:30:25.720 - 00:30:36.920

but what about the other denominations? well, yes but that was through Women in Theology I was a member of both

00:30:36.920 - 00:30:52.860

but Women in Theology was the one somebody recommended to me while I was a curate and that was a really exciting place to be so I joined Women in Theology in 1990 probably

00:30:52.860 - 00:31:08.620

no, before 1990 88 or 89, something like that at the time when people like Janet Morley was producing Celebrating Women

00:31:10.000 - 00:31:24.620

and All Desires Known the seminal work and Women in Theology was putting on workshop days and publishing stuff

00:31:25.500 - 00:31:42.200

which suddenly started to give a voice and a vocabulary to express what was true for me in faith so it was really strange

00:31:42.200 - 00:31:54.500

because I came to faith I mean it was this extraordinary tale of tumbling in but then of course in college and in the early parts of the curacy

00:31:55.460 - 00:32:10.040

what I was being given to express that was incredibly male dominated the ASB hadn't got inclusive language properly and it just sort of missed the boat on that

00:32:10.040 - 00:32:24.820

and the daily offices, they were designed for men and I just knew it didn't really express what was going on in my heart it never has actually, it never has but in Women in Theology

00:32:25.340 - 00:32:37.120

suddenly there were liturgies there was theology talk that made sense because it started from an experience of faith the experience of God

00:32:37.800 - 00:32:52.200

and the experience of God in your life, my life and all of a sudden the thing begins to come together and then it starts to make sense but I only discovered that once I was into this curacy

00:32:52.200 - 00:33:07.940

and it was in Women in Theology where I met other women from other denominations so in lots of ways people who were also struggling with the denominations they were in there was a Baptist woman who was also gay she ended up leaving the Baptist Union

00:33:07.940 - 00:33:18.720

I don't know what she went to do but there were hymn writers and there was Janet Wooden who was a very important person for me

00:33:20.420 - 00:33:35.720

coming out of Congregational Federation and it was very exciting because they and I were talking the same language and across the denominational divide so it was far more important to find the theology that we shared

00:33:36.260 - 00:33:49.380

than it was to see the differences as dominations that was the thing so actually women are natural ecumeniacs really There's a question about that later on but you've already answered it, that's brilliant

00:33:51.460 - 00:34:05.160

So how were you involved with the movement of ordination for women? Well I signed up to it When? I went to stuff when it happened

00:34:05.740 - 00:34:17.060

because I was up in the Midlands I didn't go to these London things I wish I had, I'd love to have been there I remember a very big service in Coventry Cathedral

00:34:17.060 - 00:34:28.080

that people still refer back to just before the vote, I think it was and that was really important and women in theology events

00:34:28.080 - 00:34:44.820

they were the things that started to awaken stuff So in 1990 I got my next job which was a team bicker but not a team bicker there's quite a tale about that

00:34:47.340 - 00:34:58.920

in Hemel Hempstead so that put me within reach of London much more easily and there was a group of women in theology there who were a very lively group

00:34:58.920 - 00:35:15.440

they had a local group that met there and so I think it was largely because of them and being within reach of London that I was outside Church House when the vote was happening

00:35:15.440 - 00:35:26.220

and I went along and that was an amazing day really What did it offer you? Mo?

00:35:37.860 - 00:35:59.320

Access to people who felt like I did Like women in theology, only women in theology would be more so This thing about discovering how what I felt inside

00:35:59.320 - 00:36:14.180

and why the Church's traditional talk about itself didn't really fit I knew it didn't fit and it wasn't that I thought what I was feeling was not legitimate

00:36:14.180 - 00:36:28.060

because it had been legitimised because they let me through interesting enough so I hadn't got any vocabulary at all for it but in my inarticulacy

00:36:28.900 - 00:36:41.480

the folks at the discernment and the college and so on clearly we were talking about the same thing except I hadn't got the language to talk about it in any language when the male language didn't fit

00:36:41.480 - 00:36:51.560

I knew it didn't fit but I was in a sense honest enough or confident enough actually by having been let into the institution in the first place

00:36:51.560 - 00:37:05.520

that I kind of was waiting to find a way to express it and both Mo and particularly Wit gave me that vocabulary in a sense that well I belong to these people

00:37:05.520 - 00:37:17.100

this is where I belong in the Church and I always say that the women I met in Wit the Anglicans and some of them in Mo

00:37:17.100 - 00:37:23.240

well they were in Mo as well many of them were on their way out of the Church they'd just had enough they'd had a bellyful

00:37:24.140 - 00:37:33.360

the last 20 years they'd been fighting these battles I didn't know anything about any of this didn't know nothing about it but I hadn't been anywhere near the Church either at the time

00:37:33.360 - 00:37:47.540

and suddenly here's me coming in a fresh face but coming in from a completely different story and I swear we met in the doorway and these are the people who feel about God

00:37:47.540 - 00:37:53.180

like I feel about God but I didn't know I didn't have their baggage so I was coming into the institution

00:37:53.180 - 00:38:00.120

we met in the doorway and that's where I found a belonging that's the Church I belong to that's the God I know

00:38:00.120 - 00:38:08.500

and I came on into the institution and many of them left just gave up on it they'd had enough

00:38:08.500 - 00:38:19.240

so sad I know nothing about this did you participate in the wilderness liturgies? no

00:38:19.240 - 00:38:29.280

that's why I wouldn't get that one why do you think the Church of England was slower to ordain women than other countries such as Canada, the US, Hong Kong and New Zealand?

00:38:31.740 - 00:38:48.440

hmm that's an interesting question I I think because it's slower to do most things something about being the established church

00:38:49.160 - 00:39:06.960

gives it a gravitas and a weight of inertia so what factors do you think helped it ultimately to pass each of the decisive votes to ordain women as deacons, priests and then bishops?

00:39:08.680 - 00:39:17.980

well that's complicated because it's three different stages yes I think the deacons and the priests is easier that probably hangs together

00:39:18.760 - 00:39:31.480

I think the nation was moving I think it was tied up with the theology

00:39:31.480 - 00:39:41.640

because after all women in theology started as a way of getting women into theological education so women so they were certainly equipped in every sort of

00:39:41.640 - 00:39:56.120

you know, technical sense you need to know more about feminist history than I know really as to why it should have happened then

00:39:56.120 - 00:40:05.420

but the 1980s was when it was all happening and it seemed to be part of the equalities legislation that was 70 wasn't it? 76 was it?

00:40:06.180 - 00:40:15.780

so the nation was moving and I think actually the Church of England at that stage was still quite responsive to the nation

00:40:18.560 - 00:40:31.900

that's a very interesting interjection as opposed to where it is now so I think it was ready to listen really okay

00:40:31.900 - 00:40:43.260

yeah women bishops I don't think it really has done it frankly but I'd better not go there

00:40:44.120 - 00:40:50.280

Ghouli has done very well do we say? Ghouli she's very famous

00:40:50.280 - 00:41:00.440

yes she's great too do you know anything about the women ordained abroad measure in 1986?

00:41:08.780 - 00:41:15.900

no short answer is no except I have heard of it it either said that they could or they couldn't

00:41:17.380 - 00:41:25.560

be priests when they came into this country I think it said they couldn't okay except that Suzanne Fadjour came didn't she?

00:41:25.920 - 00:41:39.400

the St Hilda community and she used to celebrate for them but they met in one of the London churches but there was a point at which the Archdeacon

00:41:39.400 - 00:41:55.980

suddenly decided that it couldn't happen in the church so St Hilda moved themselves out into the courtyard outside and did it there she said where were you and what were you doing

00:41:55.980 - 00:42:06.000

when you heard the news that the vote had been passed for women to become priests in 1992? I was outside I was outside in Dean's Yard

00:42:07.020 - 00:42:17.560

we sang we sang we'd been there because we thought it was going to fail and there was just nowhere else to be

00:42:18.120 - 00:42:27.160

and I'd arranged for Al to stay overnight with a friend in Hemel and I arranged to stay with my friend in London after this vote because I thought

00:42:27.160 - 00:42:38.340

I'd probably be just so devastated I was ready for the whole thing to go down but it was just important to be there and it was amazing

00:42:38.340 - 00:42:47.260

we couldn't work out the sums and then we realised and then we just sang sang

00:42:48.000 - 00:43:03.860

and as we came out of the Dean's Yard that night the news was just coming through because it was 5 to 5 and taxis stopped in the middle of Victoria Street to say we'd just heard the news, it was great

00:43:03.860 - 00:43:13.160

we were wearing cassocks, we were told to wear cassocks people in bus queues were saying gosh great, what's happened and we went into the pub for a drink

00:43:13.160 - 00:43:19.780

and the people in the pub were saying ah it's wonderful news, great and for the first time ever and it's never happened since

00:43:20.360 - 00:43:28.340

people in the street appreciated what the Church of England had done and that it had made a good decision I mean it was just an amazing moment

00:43:28.340 - 00:43:37.780

absolutely incredible So how where did you go from there to your own ordination?

00:43:40.420 - 00:43:52.620

They'd agreed that it could happen so what happened next for you to get your ordination in place? Right, I was in St Albans Diocese by this date

00:43:56.420 - 00:44:03.880

when I arrived it's worth telling you this I arrived home the next day stayed overnight with my friend

00:44:03.880 - 00:44:11.620

and we got all the papers and just enjoyed the moment arrived home the next day, collected our stuff drove back home outside my vicarage

00:44:12.400 - 00:44:21.940

people had plastered banners and balloons and I drove up outside the vicarage and suddenly realised everybody was really pleased about this

00:44:21.940 - 00:44:31.500

and I was going to change my life and the thought hit me I'm glad that I'm a woman and it was the 12th of November 1992

00:44:31.500 - 00:44:40.200

and I swear I had never thought that or felt it before and at that moment I thought I'm glad I'm a woman it was absolutely

00:44:40.200 - 00:44:53.760

you know, you don't forget these things I wasn't sure I wasn't sure how the rest of my congregation would be and whether people would be really smarting and difficult

00:44:53.760 - 00:45:01.420

so I actually had to go into church and ask people just to be careful the next morning or two days later

00:45:02.820 - 00:45:09.740

in fact they were fine they were absolutely fine but I wasn't absolutely sure we then had this business of

00:45:11.000 - 00:45:20.020

then we were told not to be not to celebrate yes, the bishops told the women not to rejoice too much

00:45:20.020 - 00:45:26.400

and not to be too triumphant of the pain they were causing to others what a cheek I know

00:45:27.540 - 00:45:36.840

the bishop of one of the bishops in St Albans not the local area bishop he'd been lined up

00:45:36.840 - 00:45:44.000

to meet us on Saturday so this was Friday Thursday, Friday wasn't it so the Saturday

00:45:44.940 - 00:45:51.620

we'd arranged the time again because we thought it might very well go down and bless him he was there to minister to us

00:45:51.620 - 00:45:57.980

if it did of course we were very pleased but we spent the whole time discussing and the head woman

00:45:59.020 - 00:46:05.520

was saying well we'd better give some flowers to the bishops of St Albans and we thought because we were so thankful

00:46:05.520 - 00:46:13.640

but we weren't to celebrate so we could be thankful so we duly did that and behaved like very good girls

00:46:13.640 - 00:46:20.540

all of us then of course we had all the nonsense about the Act of Synod

00:46:33.780 - 00:46:41.320

the preamble to the Act of Synod says in order to discern the rightness or otherwise

00:46:41.320 - 00:46:50.520

of the decision to ordain women as priests these measures will be put in place and basically it's established flying bishops

00:46:50.520 - 00:47:00.040

who would operate around the country to minister to those who decided they didn't think women should be priests

00:47:02.660 - 00:47:08.900

it's a scandalous invention put together very hastily

00:47:09.600 - 00:47:16.940

within six months I suppose having taken twenty odd years to decide

00:47:16.940 - 00:47:25.060

to ordain women as priests to take the decision that had gone right down to every deanery synod had discussed it and debated it

00:47:25.060 - 00:47:32.400

and gone all the way back up through all the dioceses and all the deanery synods to the general synod where it required a two thirds majority

00:47:32.400 - 00:47:39.480

which it got in six months they decided they would have to discern the rightness or otherwise

00:47:39.480 - 00:47:52.920

of the decision they'd just made that's the scandal of it it came about because there was a

00:47:52.920 - 00:48:01.040

plot there was a discussion at some point very in the choir there's only rumour but I'm sure it's true

00:48:01.040 - 00:48:08.660

that it might be possible that York would stay anti-women and Canterbury would ordain women

00:48:08.660 - 00:48:16.460

because that would enable somewhere for people to know John Hamgood was no friend to women although all the bishops said he was very supportive

00:48:16.460 - 00:48:23.780

but he wasn't really his heart wasn't in it the ecclesiastical committee of the House of Commons

00:48:23.780 - 00:48:33.180

is the filter by which legislation from the general synod reaches Parliament and has to be passed by Parliament to change canon law

00:48:34.000 - 00:48:40.800

that had been packed in advance by people like John Gummer and Anne Whittacombe, two prominent

00:48:40.800 - 00:48:48.780

Anglicans opposed to the ordination of women who got themselves onto the ecclesiastical committee so that when this legislation came from the general synod

00:48:48.780 - 00:48:57.160

to Parliament they could say in the ecclesiastical committee we'll never pass it it's not expedient

00:48:58.380 - 00:49:05.240

that's the technical word so on the threat that they would not find it expedient

00:49:06.760 - 00:49:13.480

the bishops then went into a huddle and I don't know who they huddled with but they went into a huddle to say

00:49:13.480 - 00:49:21.180

we'd better change what we've just passed because otherwise we'll never get it through Parliament now that was never tested

00:49:21.180 - 00:49:28.180

the scandal of it was it was never tested and I'm quite sure had they tested it Parliament would have said

00:49:29.260 - 00:49:37.400

forget the ecclesiastical committee Parliament would have passed it Parliament would have said don't be so silly because more than the majority of Parliament

00:49:37.400 - 00:49:45.400

was already in favour but these people were on the ecclesiastical committee so they went into the huddle and obviously

00:49:45.400 - 00:49:53.380

very powerful voices in the Church of England who were utterly opposed on the Catholic end, I don't think the evangelicals were around

00:49:53.380 - 00:50:01.280

particularly, well they weren't very prominent then, it was from the Catholic end oh we'll leave

00:50:01.280 - 00:50:08.760

oh we'll walk out, oh we'll do this, oh we'll do that, we'll split the church blah blah blah and basically they

00:50:09.400 - 00:50:17.400

gave them the Act of Synod they then went back to Synod the Act of Synod, had to go back to Synod

00:50:18.340 - 00:50:25.840

where there was just the most appalling pressure put on Synod members to say

00:50:25.840 - 00:50:33.420

well if you want this legislation to go through you'll have to pass this Act of Synod and the Act of Synod basically provided

00:50:33.420 - 00:50:44.640

flying bishops for those who weren't going to accept what they'd already done it's just dreadful oh dear

00:50:47.340 - 00:50:54.920

do you want to hear all this yes no we don't think they need to hear this because this is about the politics of it

00:50:54.920 - 00:51:04.640

and how people objected should I say a word about when I got my job in Hermel Homestead

00:51:04.640 - 00:51:14.460

because that's part of the tale I was coming out of my curacy in Derby and of course the chaps had all

00:51:15.080 - 00:51:23.880

gone off to be priesthood so they were all going to be incumbents the woman couldn't be an incumbent but I was absolutely determined

00:51:23.880 - 00:51:30.340

that I wasn't going to be a curate I was really stroppy about that

00:51:31.200 - 00:51:38.240

I felt so strongly about it I would have probably been prepared to leave and go back to being an accountant somewhere

00:51:39.940 - 00:51:47.600

rather than just go and be another curate but there were some job ads that came up in church times

00:51:48.860 - 00:51:55.800

for members of teams and for women to be in charge of things but they were all in other dioceses so I applied for this

00:51:55.800 - 00:52:03.560

job that described a member of a team team vicar really but because it was clearly a member of a team they were looking for women

00:52:03.560 - 00:52:13.560

they were looking for women and I applied and I got the job and it was because they were looking for women

00:52:14.980 - 00:52:23.560

and Sir Norman's diocese and a very good team rector who's a lovely guy and they'd planned

00:52:24.380 - 00:52:32.380

how do we get a woman into this post and they'd gone to kind of lawyers up and down the country

00:52:32.380 - 00:52:40.200

who said no you can't have a team vicar you can't have a team vicar if there's a woman so they had this thing the teams had this thing you could have a member

00:52:40.200 - 00:52:48.500

of a team which didn't specify whether they were priests or not so they had this member of the team thing and appointed me

00:52:48.500 - 00:52:58.320

as a member of the team so I really appreciated that, loved it, was ready to do the job one of my

00:52:58.320 - 00:53:06.200

parishioners the lawyer the diocesan lawyer then started to lose his nerve on the

00:53:06.200 - 00:53:14.740

way to this thing between my appointment and actually being licensed and he said I can't call the team vicar

00:53:14.740 - 00:53:23.620

I can't put her in charge she can't sit in the vicar's stall to which my

00:53:24.940 - 00:53:34.700

team rector bless him, said and I lived in a house which was called the vicarage

00:53:35.360 - 00:53:45.800

so I said I lived in the vicarage which is true and I sit in the stall but I'm not the vicar somebody in the congregation

00:53:45.800 - 00:53:54.160

then appointed some solicitors to try and prove that they had not been provided with a vicar, a team vicar

00:53:54.160 - 00:54:01.660

and the constitution said they should have a team vicar in that church the case was dropped but he went to court

00:54:01.660 - 00:54:10.780

he tried to go to court to stop it and all this is going on in the background all the time in the diocese

00:54:10.780 - 00:54:19.460

two other people were given licenses as members of teams one of them

00:54:20.140 - 00:54:27.460

had been a deaconess in the a deacon in the team they decided she she was senior to me

00:54:27.460 - 00:54:36.380

they were going to give her a member of the team license we'd got the service lined up we all went along to support her and so on

00:54:37.500 - 00:54:44.520

somewhere in that afternoon of the service the lawyer lost his nerve again and said no we're not doing it anymore

00:54:45.780 - 00:54:54.380

the service went ahead and the bishop very nice bishop but he gave her back the license she'd already got

00:54:55.520 - 00:55:07.580

one didn't tell anybody heavens above and the details, it's always in the details every single license I had

00:55:07.580 - 00:55:15.640

had to be sent back to be corrected my first license as assistant curate they called me parish deacon I said I'm not a parish deacon I'm an assistant curate

00:55:17.500 - 00:55:25.440

my second license as member of the team came as assistant curate I said I thought of that my priesting

00:55:28.880 - 00:55:35.820

my priesting license I was a priest alright but they gave it to me as a member of the team I said I'm not a member of the team I'm a buddy of the team

00:55:35.820 - 00:55:47.440

so when were you priested? 94 23rd of April was that the first cohort?

00:55:48.440 - 00:55:55.780

oh certainly the first cohort the first people there was a little flurry about whether it should be before or after Easter

00:55:59.080 - 00:56:05.460

most of the bishops wanted just didn't want women to celebrate Easter Day

00:56:06.480 - 00:56:14.340

so they arranged them after Easter we were all after Easter one diocese, Barry Rogerson in Bristol diocese said

00:56:14.340 - 00:56:28.840

I'm not doing that he ordained his women before Easter good heavens did you stay on as team vicar

00:56:28.840 - 00:56:40.500

in your Hemel Hempstead once you were priested we then go on to the no names

00:56:40.500 - 00:56:48.700

have you encountered people male colleagues superiors of laity who were opposed to the ordination of women

00:56:54.020 - 00:57:08.680

I think you've already said how you feel about the considerable provision that was made for those who were opposed but it's true that most people

00:57:08.680 - 00:57:15.440

as soon as they met you as soon as you were in the post doing the job they really did

00:57:15.440 - 00:57:25.440

was the one we have talked about off record was that the most significant you have come across yes yes

00:57:25.440 - 00:57:32.120

because that was pretty serious yes in terms of the duration and

00:57:34.420 - 00:57:40.340

persistence of it yes because it was largely done for a start

00:57:40.340 - 00:57:48.580

it was begun in secret it was not really disclosed to me before I got here I think people didn't expect it to be

00:57:49.580 - 00:57:54.280

that long there was support coming from elsewhere outside

00:57:57.420 - 00:58:03.640

cronies from outside were supporting him we had quite a flurry you know I

00:58:03.640 - 00:58:11.160

said this thing about arranging that I would decide because I was a team rector I would decide where this person

00:58:11.160 - 00:58:19.380

would be every Sunday so that I would not give him discretion to decide to pick and choose

00:58:20.100 - 00:58:26.200

who was celebrating he would be with whoever celebrated and if he didn't receive he didn't receive but it wasn't going to be underhand

00:58:26.200 - 00:58:34.880

but at one point I had to insist that he wore Eucharistic dress

00:58:34.880 - 00:58:42.820

he started appearing in clothes differently in different vestments when there was a woman celebrating from when there was a man celebrating

00:58:42.820 - 00:58:50.980

I never noticed that no, no, no all in the detail and we had

00:58:50.980 - 00:58:59.280

an instance about servers and it was really all saints servers where the person who drew up the rota for the servers

00:59:00.400 - 00:59:07.160

would ask the clergy team who's going to be on duty so that I know who to rota, we said why do you need to know

00:59:07.160 - 00:59:14.880

who to rota, he said well because so and so won't receive and there were some people who wouldn't receive the chalice and we just said

00:59:14.880 - 00:59:23.020

well that's up to them to look after their conscience so we're not going to tell you you draw up your rota before we do

00:59:23.020 - 00:59:30.160

our rota and if the person finds themself with somebody they don't want to be with, okay they'll have to change their position on the rota

00:59:30.160 - 00:59:38.520

but they must take responsibility for their own conscience not you the rota preparer decide to do it for them

00:59:39.240 - 00:59:46.480

and that's a really important point your own conscience which is the point about the person we've been talking about

00:59:46.480 - 00:59:54.460

it was not for him to decide it's not for us to decide oh we'd better rota him away from so and so because he'll

00:59:54.460 - 01:00:02.780

find it difficult, no we rota him like a human being across the board and if he wants to be, he'll then have to work out how he behaves and whether

01:00:02.780 - 01:00:10.640

he does or doesn't turn up or whatever but it's for him to protect his conscience and adjust his behaviour because he's the one with the problem

01:00:11.580 - 01:00:18.620

and that's what the act of synod failed to do because the act of synod said oh the church will make provisions so you

01:00:18.620 - 01:00:26.680

don't have to, you know well the next question is about the act of synod which we've talked about when I think it was more relevant

01:00:26.680 - 01:00:33.780

but could you tell me about grass please yes grass was founded almost immediately the act of synod appeared

01:00:34.660 - 01:00:42.540

the group for the rescinding of the act of synod and it was just in response to that that it was

01:00:42.540 - 01:00:49.720

clearly a mistake in the view of grass Monica Furlong was one of the key

01:00:50.600 - 01:00:58.860

players in that, she's a very important woman for me, she's a very very bright very holy actually

01:00:58.860 - 01:01:06.100

very devout woman, with a deep understanding of the Church of England and of faith and so on

01:01:08.220 - 01:01:13.940

and it was a national organisation but we actually formed

01:01:13.940 - 01:01:21.120

a southern branch of it as it were that we ran from here for a while yeah

01:01:22.920 - 01:01:30.300

and it was very specific because it was absolutely in response to this, it just said what I've been describing

01:01:30.300 - 01:01:38.240

you know, after 20 odd years of making its mind up about that, within six months they've undermined it but it also was totally

01:01:38.240 - 01:01:46.160

unprecedented, totally unprecedented in the Church of England totally unprecedented in the Anglican Communion, England is

01:01:46.160 - 01:01:54.220

the only province in the entire Anglican Communion which has chosen that way to behave others have put time limits and

01:01:54.220 - 01:02:01.520

codes of practice and all the rest of it, ok fair enough, but only the Church of England chose to make a structural provision like that

01:02:01.520 - 01:02:09.960

I don't know, schism hmm so this goes on to say to what extent do you think the Church is still

01:02:09.960 - 01:02:16.120

in conflict and divided about the place of women in its orders totally, totally, I was getting words

01:02:18.180 - 01:02:26.160

on a more positive note, what have women contributed and what difference have women clergy made in the Church, what specific

01:02:26.160 - 01:02:33.280

gifts do they bring oh gosh, yeah um, well half the human race is not represented

01:02:33.960 - 01:02:40.900

hehehe um balance yes, yes

01:02:41.820 - 01:02:49.940

um, yeah, one of the one of the biggest things that happened early on, and this was in the 90s, and yes it coincided

01:02:49.940 - 01:02:56.580

with the Cleveland thing and so on, but suddenly uh

01:02:57.680 - 01:03:04.580

abuse survivors started to talk to the Church people were knocking on my door, um

01:03:05.780 - 01:03:13.820

one person in particular that I had a lot of, well years of dealing, of supporting and nurturing, uncovered

01:03:13.820 - 01:03:19.880

in her own past a horrific childhood sexual abuse um

01:03:21.840 - 01:03:28.800

and came to me to explain one day why she was likely to get depressed, and I

01:03:28.800 - 01:03:36.480

just sat and talked to her, and over months, all this stuff suddenly, suddenly it appeared, um

01:03:36.480 - 01:03:44.820

now she would never, ever have been able to do that with a male cleric I don't know whether Deaconess

01:03:44.820 - 01:03:52.740

might have had it, I doubt it actually because many of the women in the diocese, when I went to the other folks in the diocese to say

01:03:53.180 - 01:04:00.460

help, this is coming at me now, they said oh, I don't know and they got no experience of it, so

01:04:00.460 - 01:04:08.640

suddenly, and that made a huge difference, that took me into a big strand of ministry for myself which was about, first of all

01:04:08.640 - 01:04:16.320

accompanying her and then a group in the diocese of St Albans, this was of abuse survivors they made contact with

01:04:16.320 - 01:04:25.000

not Helen Kennedy but somebody Kennedy who was the Catholic not the lawyer

01:04:25.000 - 01:04:33.280

the Catholic woman who started raising the issues in the Catholic church about survivors of abuse, about clerical

01:04:33.280 - 01:04:41.200

abuse, we were very involved with drawing up the early safeguarding things um and began

01:04:41.200 - 01:04:47.640

to listen to survivors, so I think that's been a huge change and I think that couldn't have come about if women hadn't been

01:04:50.320 - 01:04:57.180

given the ability to listen as priests, yeah, I really think that made a huge difference

01:04:57.180 - 01:05:04.460

yeah How has your work as a priest influenced Alice and your daughter? How does it?

01:05:04.520 - 01:05:12.160

How has your work as a priest influenced Alice and My daughter? Your daughter Ha ha ha Oh there's a question

01:05:22.540 - 01:05:29.860

She was quite young relatively when we started on this line of going church life

01:05:30.540 - 01:05:37.300

so she was a vicarage kid from the start so something of that has um

01:05:38.400 - 01:05:44.140

affected her I think she's got I think she's got a lot of respect for

01:05:46.600 - 01:05:53.240

for myself in ministry she doesn't have much respect for the church

01:05:53.240 - 01:06:00.420

because of the way the church has behaved so badly, so she didn't go to church, um she has some sort of a faith

01:06:00.960 - 01:06:08.820

so she's okay with God but um uh when

01:06:08.820 - 01:06:16.380

she came to be married she did want to get married in church and I was very glad of that we were married for minutes I think

01:06:16.380 - 01:06:26.880

um so that was quite telling um What advice would

01:06:26.880 - 01:06:38.280

you give a woman deacon starting out today? uh find

01:06:38.280 - 01:06:46.760

good company which is probably going to be good female company and

01:06:46.760 - 01:06:54.120

trust trust what you share together uh because you

01:06:54.780 - 01:07:02.740

it's essential to find the women who will understand what you're talking about um

01:07:03.460 - 01:07:10.840

I've been in and out of teams, well I've been in teams all my ministry but in and out of teams where there was another woman and the change

01:07:10.840 - 01:07:18.600

when the second woman appears is extraordinary you forget very quickly when you move into a team where you're the only woman

01:07:20.440 - 01:07:26.700

you forget that they can't understand what you're talking about most of the time. As soon as another woman is in the room, suddenly you realise

01:07:26.700 - 01:07:34.120

that there's somebody who does understand what you're saying and but that's an extraordinary thing to live with that sort of minority business

01:07:34.120 - 01:07:42.200

of not being heard and the classic thing of um sitting in a meeting with a group of men and you put

01:07:42.200 - 01:07:49.940

forward an idea and it's ignored and then the chap across the way says to the chair, I think chair this is what you're trying to say and

01:07:49.940 - 01:07:58.260

gives him my idea and then all of a sudden it's heard. I mean I've seen it it's absolute classic but women need to

01:07:58.260 - 01:08:08.460

they have to talk to other women to spot that so they need to What hopes do you have for women clergy

01:08:08.460 - 01:08:30.900

in the coming decades? That they will That they will find their voice as women

01:08:32.180 - 01:08:42.480

and their integrity as women priests and therefore will change the

01:08:42.480 - 01:08:50.440

church for the better My worry is, I used to say in a funny way we spent years

01:08:50.440 - 01:08:58.880

trying to make women into priests and then there was a moment in the generation

01:08:58.880 - 01:09:07.880

where I swear all these new women priests who hadn't been through that process forgot to be women

01:09:08.820 - 01:09:17.920

and I wanted to turn them back into women because they wanted to be what they'd seen the chaps being whereas

01:09:17.920 - 01:09:26.120

being of our generation you couldn't be that because you knew you weren't going to be that so it was really important to be a woman who's a priest

01:09:26.120 - 01:09:35.820

a priest is a woman not go into the black because all the chaps wear black and they won't believe I'm a really it unless I wear black

01:09:35.820 - 01:09:45.420

no, I'm a woman who's a priest I think the next three questions are part of a whole so

01:09:45.420 - 01:09:54.100

what are the pressing issues the church faces what changes do you think it needs to make about those

01:09:55.720 - 01:10:01.820

and are these changes that need to happen for women to flourish

01:10:01.820 - 01:10:09.780

I think if it's a pressing issue it should be for women to flourish yes, the answer is yes certainly to that part

01:10:09.780 - 01:10:22.820

do you think you're just the church of England now or church generally I am church of England I think

01:10:22.820 - 01:10:32.380

what the church of England has to do is to recover its relationship with the nation that's the change

01:10:32.380 - 01:10:42.540

I think I've seen over the 30 odd years dating from the 90s and I think

01:10:42.540 - 01:10:50.420

it's not been a change for the better because I think the church is marginalised now in a way that it wasn't when those folks

01:10:50.420 - 01:11:00.560

on Victoria Street said good on the church of England that wouldn't happen now there was a moment when the

01:11:01.500 - 01:11:11.200

Watch I think it was commissioned a survey a poll organisation to take a survey of the nation's

01:11:11.200 - 01:11:19.920

opinions about women bishops and it was never published and they didn't do anything with it the reason was

01:11:22.640 - 01:11:31.180

what they expected was something like 80% of the nation would say of course, why not because 80% were happy for

01:11:31.180 - 01:11:39.740

women to be priests what in fact the survey said was more than half the nation couldn't care less and that is shocking news

01:11:39.740 - 01:11:46.100

it is that was really shocking so I think it does need to recover that

01:11:47.860 - 01:11:56.400

it's well adrift from the nation on matters of sexuality I think it's well adrift from the nation on matters of women

01:11:57.660 - 01:12:09.000

and that while it stays adrift it's got nothing to say I've had a lot of

01:12:09.000 - 01:12:17.380

dealings over the years in various guises with domestic abuse, sexual abuse survivors, the refuge organisation domestic violence

01:12:17.380 - 01:12:27.200

Cardiff Women's Aid I was a trustee there for a while and I spent my time consciously going there

01:12:27.200 - 01:12:33.840

as a church person because my fear was they look at the church and they think oh there's no help there

01:12:34.680 - 01:12:41.820

so the church has got nothing to say to half the population let alone the huge proportion who are struggling with issues

01:12:41.820 - 01:12:49.400

of domestic violence because they turn around and they say well look how you're treating women look how you can't actually make your mind up

01:12:49.400 - 01:12:55.900

whether women are fully human beings normative for a human being what have you got to say to those who say

01:12:55.900 - 01:13:06.080

my wife I'll do what I like with her they've just got no voice that's a real sadness I think it's something that was lost

01:13:06.080 - 01:13:14.200

I was the faith in the city generation so as I was going into theological college faith in the city was published and that was an amazing document really

01:13:14.200 - 01:13:21.820

an amazing piece of work very courageously speaking to the nation from within the nation because we were in every

01:13:21.820 - 01:13:31.840

Church of England is in every parish they said and this is what we see since then we seem to have separated ourselves

01:13:31.840 - 01:13:39.280

as a church we talk about the nation over there and the church over here which shouldn't be

01:13:39.280 - 01:13:48.060

we are the nation of the church so that's what I would long to see recovered and I think

01:13:49.120 - 01:13:56.200

these obvious presenting issues the immediate ones about sexuality and gender have to figure prominently in that

01:13:56.200 - 01:14:05.680

because until we're back in touch with the nation on those we've got nothing to say then we can deal with slavery

01:14:05.680 - 01:14:15.440

and colonialism and climate change is there anything else you would like to speak about that we haven't touched upon

01:14:16.080 - 01:14:33.400

I think you've just said it gosh um I don't know

01:14:34.260 - 01:14:41.420

it is quite no something else I could just put into the mix which is about the past really

01:14:43.720 - 01:14:50.060

and that is the extraordinary way which I found I went on sabbatical when I was here to South India

01:14:50.060 - 01:14:57.860

to look for my missionary ancestors and found them and found a lot about them

01:14:58.580 - 01:15:06.300

and that's continued since and my grandmother particularly who was quite a feisty woman I think

01:15:06.300 - 01:15:15.420

I never knew her, she died before I was born but that has grown since I came back and

01:15:16.400 - 01:15:25.580

where I was saying that we were effectively unchurched family we were very English about it we know the church

01:15:25.580 - 01:15:32.940

of course we don't go but we know the church but they knew it because of these missionary ancestors and I think I've

01:15:32.940 - 01:15:41.920

been a bit of a throwback in that and as I've gone on since I've found more and more ways in which I belong

01:15:41.920 - 01:15:51.520

and I do love the Church of England God help me I do and I feel a

01:15:51.520 - 01:16:03.740

deep belonging to it for what it is, being the church of the nation in that sense and my missionary grandmother

01:16:03.740 - 01:16:12.120

she wrote four novels or three novels and a story of cameo pictures

01:16:12.120 - 01:16:21.320

and stories of Indian women she was born in 1870 she was in her 50s when she wrote it she was back in this country

01:16:22.220 - 01:16:30.980

and it was published by Sheldon Press to give a flavour of life in India she and her

01:16:32.120 - 01:16:40.440

father who was the big guy in CMS in Chennai in Madras, he was a founder member of the Zenana mission

01:16:40.440 - 01:16:49.960

which was a mission to women she and her sister who was also a missionary trained they did Hindustani exams

01:16:49.960 - 01:16:58.600

and trained and went though I haven't got first hand evidence of what they did but they trained and went to meet women

01:16:59.480 - 01:17:05.660

who the men couldn't touch, men couldn't meet and weren't allowed to speak to but there they were, these missionaries

01:17:08.580 - 01:17:16.540

what's very interesting is that I've had these books and I've talked about her a bit and I've talked about her to Janet Wooden

01:17:17.500 - 01:17:24.400

who subsequently in the last few years two or three years

01:17:24.400 - 01:17:32.180

has produced a book on women and culture in the 19th century and religion in the 19th century

01:17:32.180 - 01:17:39.420

and my grandmother's turned up in this because Janet said, I remember what you said about your grandma, so

01:17:40.100 - 01:17:48.320

lo and behold there's a little bit of a chapter which is all about my grandmother bless her and I went back and I found some of the bits of the Zenana

01:17:48.320 - 01:17:56.020

missionary committee minutes and so on and the family and I'm so proud of her

01:17:56.020 - 01:18:04.320

because she has written some beautiful stuff in these books which I read again now and suddenly realise incredibly

01:18:04.320 - 01:18:12.340

sensitive writing which I've been quoting to curates since about pastoral visiting because it says, a little

01:18:12.340 - 01:18:19.760

forward it says, let us put aside our notions of history and geography for they have no relevance here

01:18:21.500 - 01:18:28.140

let us leave to men she must have had a tongue in her cheeks, you're a bright woman let us leave to men

01:18:28.140 - 01:18:35.760

important matters of politics and economics and come with me and meet the people behind the screen

01:18:36.480 - 01:18:44.160

and sit with them and listen to them and you will find gracious, gentle people and tell them, it's the most

01:18:44.160 - 01:18:52.020

wonderful piece, it's my grandmother and I'm so proud of her and I kind of think there's something so important about women

01:18:52.020 - 01:19:00.060

recovering their own belonging to each other, their own story, rather than having women around you who understand

01:19:00.060 - 01:19:08.140

what you're talking about Peggy that's wonderful, thank you so much I'm going to turn it off