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So today's date is the 26th of February. It's Helen Trotter interviewing Michael Doe. Can I ask you, Michael, to spell your name, please? Michael, M-I-C-H-A-E-L, Doe, D-O-E. And what's your date and place of birth, please?

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December the 24th, 1947. And today's interview is being recorded at Grey's Inn for the Christian Voices coming out project. We've got a list of prompts that I'm going to work through, but I suspect that actually what we're really going to talk about is

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Seeking the Truth in Love, which is your book, and what's happened since then, and what you think about the state of the church now. And as I think Tracey told you, I'm one of Jeremy Pemberton's barristers, so I've been involved in his employment trajectory, and I was the employment junior on that, and we're going off to the EAT this year.

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One of the things that the project would like to know is a bit about your background and childhood, and where you grew up and how it was. Right, I think we're just talking about the book, really. All right. I have to say, that was my understanding. I've got some potential prompts here. I think

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it would be much more interesting if we just talk about the book and what led you to write it and where we've come since then. If you'd feel more comfortable, I think that's probably the way forward. You wrote, obviously, Seeking the Truth in Love, the Church and Homosexuality, and as I understand it, at the time you wrote that,

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you were Bishop of Swindon, is that right? Yes. And how long were you Bishop of Swindon for? I became Bishop in 1994, and went to the Lambeth Conference in 1998, and I can talk about that if you'd like, because that really gave rise to the book. Absolutely, yes, please.

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I'm sorry. I mean, if this is also going to be an audio record, I'd better say that again, shall I? That I became Bishop of Swindon in 1994, and went to the Lambeth Conference in 1998. And I was still quite young and quite a green Bishop, but we had to choose which section to go into, and I went into one called Called to Full Humanity, in which there was

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a subsection on human sexuality. And I would have to say that the whole process was not very well organised, or resourced, or indeed in terms of meeting rooms located. So it felt quite unsatisfactory from the beginning, but even more so when it became very clear that in this subsection of a quarter of the delegates, there was a very wide participation from around

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the Communion, which was good, but also some very deep disagreements. And at the beginning there was a lot of unhappiness, some shouting, and I think I would say it was largely due to Bishops from South Africa, and one or two English Bishops, in particular the then Bishop of Oxford, Richard Harries, that we actually managed to settle down and start listening

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to each other, and remarkably produced at the end of the three-week period a report from the subsection, which was agreed unanimously, which was quite a surprise. And then we had at the last minute to put a resolution together, because at that time the Lambeth Conference still worked on a rather synodical model, so everything came into a final plenary,

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lasting two or three days. And we, again, managed to agree a resolution, and it was a little bit, on the one hand, on the other, some people think, others think differently, but nevertheless it was a corporate effort. The problem was that when we got to the plenary, tempers got flared again across the board, particularly from people who hadn't been

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through the three-week process that we'd been through. So they were at the beginning of where you had been three weeks earlier. And also a lot of them had come with quite clear agendas, both conservative and liberal. And on the floor of the plenary, the report was accepted, but the resolution was radically changed. In particular, by the insertion of the now famous,

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and some people might say infamous, homosexuality is incompatible with Scripture. Although if you actually read the resolution, that's simply a qualifying introductory phrase to the main part of the resolution, which is much more positive. And that was what happened there. George Carey was in the chair. It was quite a messy process,

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and in fact, he spoke about the resolution that had been passed even before the Assembly had voted on it. So the tension was quite high. Afterwards, some of us wrote a pastoral letter to gay and lesbian Anglicans, reiterating another part of the resolution, which talked about travelling together and talked about listening to each other. And I think in your

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book you said that had over 200 signatures, is that right? That's right. But nevertheless, I mean, it just felt rather depressing. So I had a sabbatical coming up. Pre-planned, regardless of... Yes. And decided to take this as the subject. And I went off to Berkeley, California, to the seminary there, and wrote what became Seeking the Truth in Love.

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And I remember coming back to Swindon and saying to my diocesan bishop, I've written a book which may be a little controversial. And he said, well, while you've been away, I've done something a little controversial. And that was to accept that one of the parish priests in Swindon, Peter Stone, was going to transition to a woman,

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but would remain the vicar of his parish, mainly because the congregation were very clear that they wanted to welcome him back as carol. And that would have been in what sort of 1999, 2000? The book was published in 2000. So at that stage, your diocesan bishop was quite forward thinking in terms of accepting who this priest was, the parish priest was, and accepting the parish's

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wishes in terms of keeping that priest. Yes. And because there had also been quite a bit of work done within the House of Bishops on those issues. And he was clear that there were no theological or canon law barriers to carol coming back. And so how did you anticipate that your diocesan bishop would receive the news about your book? Did you feel quite confident that he would be supportive,

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or were you a bit more concerned? Oh, I mean, I think we were both within the liberal Catholic tradition. Right. And I mean, that really takes us on to talk about the content of the book. Yes. Because in many ways, it's not terribly radical. And one of the interesting parts of its reception was being criticised, both by conservatives, and also by, well, LGCM. And

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I mean, when it was published, the Daily Express, well, let's first of all establish what the book contains. Because what it attempted to do was to summarise the history of the issue within the life of the Church, within a more general context of how the Church has dealt with, or failed to deal with, sexuality generally. And what I tried to do was to set out a summary of what had been

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said and written, and then in each area, like scripture, tradition, experience, to offer some kind of continuum, whereby people could identify where they stood along the line. And although I guess the book indicated that I was at the more liberal end of the line, and simply being open to having a continuum is liberal, it certainly wasn't as radical as some people felt it should

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be. And so was it that you were being criticised by the more conservative, with a small c, for being too radical, and being criticised by groups like LGCM for not being radical enough? Precisely. And it wasn't helped by the fact that the Daily Express misquoted, misrepresented it. Which led to some very unfortunate stuff, and some death threats, and so on.

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And it was my poor secretary who had to cope with that, she had to open the letters and take the phone calls. And how long did that continue for? Not for long, because the book then became available and people could read it. And of course Rowan DLT, who agreed to publish, they approached Rowan Williams, who was then still in Wales, and he very gladly wrote the

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foreword. And of course he's been criticised for that, but then been criticised for many other things. Again, a poor man, he also has suffered slings and arrows from both right and left. Because I felt that his foreword really was an acknowledgement of the work that there is to be done, and the fact that one has to move forward and talk about these issues before they're going

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to be resolved. So I talked to him no more or less than that, and I was pleased to see that he'd done it. But it didn't seem to me it was particularly controversial, foreword, I was going to say, misread it entirely. No, no, although of course it was some years ago, and I mean everybody, well not everybody, but a lot of people have moved forward since then.

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Yes, 16 years ago. The other thing that wasn't helpful at the time, and I must be careful at this point, is that there were two Careys involved. Yes. The message from Lambeth, I'm not attributing this to George Carey, but there was a very clear message to be relayed to me from Lambeth, which was summed up as, well that's the end of him then.

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Right. And I was clearly meant to hear that. Yes. And how was that message transferred to you? Via another bishop. Right. In the meantime, a journalist on the Church of England newspaper, who happened to be George Carey's son, wrote a piece which was I think supposed to be a review,

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but I thought was a total misrepresentation of what I'd said. Right. And to be fair, the editor of the Church of England newspaper agreed to publish an equal length rebuttal for me. Good. Helped of course by the fact that the Church of England newspaper is always grateful for anything that will fill up the space. Yes, quite fair. And

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yes, one could say certain things about Andrew Carey's own situation, which makes it a little bit hypocritical to enter into this area in such a critical way, but there we are. Did you feel that he was the puppeteer or the puppet master? Oh, I think the puppet master. Yes. Because he was then at least, he's gone quite quiet now,

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but then at least he was part of that media focus linked to David Virtue in the States and Christopher Sugden here, who have really, and they've moved quite a bit from print media into social media, have really been trying to sharpen the sharp end. Yes. And so all of this is around 2000. What was your Diocesan Bishop's reaction after publication

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happened and, you know, the slings and arrows are being thrown at you? Did he continue to be supportive or not? Yes. And how long did you remain as Bishop of Swindon after publication? So this is probably since 2000. I did 10 years. And at that point, I decided that I would want like to do something else. And at the time, I think it's right to say that during the whole

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of the Caries Archic Episcopate, no single man became Diocesan Bishops in England. Jeffrey became Bishop of Europe. Yes. And I'm not saying I would have made a good Diocesan, but I think it was clear that that was not going to be an option for anybody who wasn't married with two kids and a dog. So, and the job at USPG came up. I'll talk a bit about

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that in a moment, if you like. Yes, please. The other thing to say, because I mean, your question suggested that there might have been hostility. I mean, we were at that point meant to be, as we are supposed now to be in a different way, in a process of conversation. Yes. We'd had the House of Bishops. I was an elected member of the House of Bishops.

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Suffragans elect a certain number of their own. And I sat in the House of Bishops for most of my 10 years as Bishop of Swindon. And we had issues in human sexuality, which was meant to be the beginning of a debate. Nothing much had happened. The House, therefore, commissioned the Faith and Order people to do a second resource document called Some Issues

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in Human Sexuality. And some of us rather wickedly thought in another 10 years we'd have a document called Some Other Issues in Human Sexuality. But to be fair, and it was written by a conservative evangelical theologian, but he quoted large chunks from my book. And in fact, a couple of chapters actually take the structure of two of my chapters. So there was a debate going on, and the book

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contributed to it. Do you think it would be fair to say, certainly in light of the veiled or not so veiled warning that you had from, apparently from Lambeth, that whilst there was this conversation that was supposed to be ongoing, its parameters were rather transcribed by what the boss wanted the outcome to be? Yes, I mean, they were transcribed by two things. I mean, firstly,

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the Archbishop's own theological position. But secondly, what Rowan inherited and struggled with and never was able to deal with, which is the way that these issues impact upon the wider Anglican Communion, and the way that they have been used, I would have to say, often by both sides, as a weapon. And obviously now we have

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the Archbishop of York, who I think it is fair to say is less liberal than one might hope. But equally, justice seems to be rather more open and liberal and prepared, actually, to have a conversation with some substance to it. In terms of where they are now, and where things were as you saw them in 98 and after the publication of your book in 2000, what do you

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think has changed, if anything? I'd happily talk about that, and particularly from the context of USPG. Before I do that, I should just perhaps finish off the other section by saying that there was indeed criticism from the Conservative side. I mean, not just about my book, but about those bishops. Michael Bishop of Wolverhampton got it in the neck, I think, even more than I did.

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He'd moved the amendment at the Labour conference about listening to the experience of gay and lesbian people. He moved that on the floor of the plenary and got it through. But there was also criticism from LGCM. And I've had one or two problems with LGCM, which perhaps we won't go into. But that certainly led me to think that I was going to put my support with changing attitude.

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Right. And I was and I remain an Episcopal patron of changing attitude. Yes. But where have we moved on, you ask? Yes, when you were saying, so you were bishops from then until 2006. 2004.

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So 2004, forgive me. Ten years. And then you moved on. I moved to USPG.

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Yes. And I had another sabbatical and produced that. Now, that is not about human sexuality. It's about the Anglican Communion and world mission. But clearly, those two things are very much bound up with sexuality issues.

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My experience, more generally, first, about the Anglican Communion is from the USPG perspective. And I have to say that because it means that the people you meet, and I travelled a great deal, the people you meet tend to be in the more liberal Catholic churches. And although I would go to all Africa bishops meetings in Nigeria and Uganda,

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generally speaking, our partners were those, some of whom had a more liberal understanding of these issues, obviously, South Africa. Many of whom actually, I would say particularly in Asia, didn't think it was an issue they really needed to spend much time talking about.

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And others in Africa, who, for cultural reasons, more than anything else, felt that they were still, they were very unhappy. I mean, my quotation is in the book, is, we wish, we don't like what the Americans have done.

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This is Gene Robinson. We wish they hadn't done it. But in the end, all of us have to get on with being in the church, wherever God has called us. And we've got more important things to worry about.

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And it only ever emerged where it could be used as a political weapon. So we had it, for example, in the province of Central Africa. We were meeting on the shores of Lake Malawi. And I and the representative of the Episcopal Church in the States

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were denounced as going round Africa, stirring up homosexuals. And the splits in Zimbabwe were, it was used in the same way there. And at one point we lost the Anglican Church in Zimbabwe, but got it back into the communion. But more broadly in the communion, and insofar as this book touches on all of these issues,

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this is where I try to do some analysis. And my argument, I think, is that from North America, both the conservatives and the liberals have used this issue as a way of trying to exert power, not unrelated to their availability of money.

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Around the rest of the communion. And both have tried to impose their own agenda on the rest of the communion. And all of that's been very sad. And again, this book in the States, I'm a fool to myself, really.

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I mean, this book in the States has been criticised from both sides. Right, right, right. And... But my much stronger criticism, and the book is much clearer here than perhaps the previous one,

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my much stronger criticism is the way that the conservatives in the States, having lost the battle on the home ground, went out seeking allies in the rest of the world. And I put that down to the fact that the rest of the agenda was not available to them. Because you're going to get nowhere in the United States if you are anti-women.

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And you're going to get nowhere even now if you're anti-divorce. Yeah, yeah. And the only issue available was the gay issue. Yeah.

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So that became the main focus. And it's interesting that the alternative Episcopal Church in the States, which Justin seems to be wanting to draw now into the communion, actually makes provision for the ordination of women, despite what Scripture says about it,

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seems to me. It actually makes provision for marriage after divorce, despite what Scripture, and indeed Tradition, say about it, seems to me. And yet it will nevertheless shout about Scripture and Tradition

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with regard to sexuality issues. And why do you think that is? Because certainly one of the things that struck me when we were doing Jeremy Pemberton's case at first instance was

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there has been actually quite a quick change in church thinking, particularly about divorce. And we looked at the canons, and we looked at where they were, and then we looked at the changes that have been made.

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And it's taken 40, 50 years, but actually it's moved quite quickly. Why do you think it is that there appears to be this sticking point in respect particularly of same-sex marriage and same-sex unions? I mean, I suppose it's the global thing, and culturally.

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I mean, I'm not going to fall into the trap which the American liberals so easily fall into, which is saying, well, the rest of you will grow up and agree with us one day. I have to accept that there are fellow Anglicans in parts of Africa who, on the basis of how they read Scripture and Tradition,

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come to a different conclusion. But nevertheless, I have to say that another reason is the cultural one. But you see, I mean, you have to do the same analysis of Britain. I mean, you say, why, I mean, have we not moved?

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I mean, the remarkable thing about British society as a whole is how far we have moved in a relatively short time. Yes, so it may well be a question of the church catching up. Yes, yeah, yeah.

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I was in Portsmouth Cathedral on the night when it all changed in the Navy Dockyard. At one minute to midnight, it was illegal, it was a disciplinary offence to be gay. At one minute past midnight, it was a disciplinary offence to discriminate against gay people. So, I mean, the world has changed, hasn't it?

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Oh, absolutely, and society changes apace. And certainly where we are now in terms of same-sex marriage, I'm sure a lot of people wouldn't have thought that would ever happen 20, 30 years ago. Perhaps not even that long ago.

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And it may well be that it's just that the church needs to make up ground. Do you think that will happen? Well, I don't know. I mean, some people think that, in fact, we might go back.

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I don't know. I mean, I've come, it took me a long time, but I've come now to support equal marriage. I've always been in favour of the blessing of same-sex partnerships. But the question of marriage, I think it's so interesting, because I get this,

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I don't encourage them. I mean, I didn't say it because I say it. Amongst the benches, amongst the senior people here, I think that would be the commonly held position now.

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That they are very happy that there is, that there are legal, civil partnerships. And I don't think they would have, well, there was a blessing of one here at the chapel. Right. And I don't think most of them would have any problem with that.

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The sticking point, I think, is whether marriage as such. That was exactly what I was going to ask you. Is a distinctive thing. What's the difference between, if one is supportive of same-sex civil partnerships,

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what would the difference be between partnerships and marriage? I mean, you say that you were always supportive of civil partnerships, and you are now supportive of equal marriage. What's the tipping point for you?

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The open to reproduction thing has never been an important issue. Again, it is to some of the benches. But that's always struck me particularly around a nun in weddings to be a bit of a red herring.

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I suppose it's to do with the sacramental nature of it. I mean, this is a bit difficult because, I mean, for most heterosexual couples, marriage is not sacramental. It's simply a legal agreement that you can easily break and form another one.

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I mean, you might want to start arguing something different, not about the distinction between gay and straight, but the distinction between legal arrangements and sacramental relationships.

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I've never thought down this line before. But you see, I mean, that then might suggest to you that civil partnerships for heterosexual people are a good thing. But that's the distinction we should make.

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And that's not to say that all civil weddings would not be sacramental. I think that would be a detrimental move. The church has always held that marriage is marriage, whoever does it, whether it's blessed in church or not.

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So I wouldn't want to go down that route. But you might want to start arguing that whatever the sexuality of the people involved, there are now two kinds of relationships, institutions. There's a thought.

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Yeah. And in terms of your work with USP, you started that in 2004. So how long were you out? I retired in 2011.

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Right. Okay. And were you in Africa for the entire time or? No, no.

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I mean, I ran the organization here. I see. Although mission agencies are having a tough time. So I spent a lot of time restructuring and downsizing and so on.

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And partly for that, I was out of the country less perhaps than my predecessors had been. So I suppose I was traveling for a quarter of the year. Normally going to somewhere to speak, preach at a synod. Yeah.

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And then doing visits either side, that kind of thing. I was in the States quite a bit as well. And it says on the back of this book, Saving Power, that you were the Honorary Assistant Bishop of the Diocese of Suffolk.

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I'm going to say that position continues. We're planning to take it because there are now more Honorary Assistant Bishops than Archdeacons and Bishops together. Right.

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And we're a motley bunch. I mean, Richard Harries, Peter Selby, et cetera, et cetera. David Atkinson. Right.

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So fortunately for Bishop Christopher, we don't actually get together very often. I think he's delighted. It would be a trouble sometimes. Basically, I think what marks us all out is that we've all retired in London.

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Yes. Partly because we're still, even though I get paid for coming here, but generally speaking, we're still doing all kinds of stuff. Well, I was about to say, when you say that you're retired,

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but you're now at Gray's as the preacher here. I'm at Gray's. I'm Assistant Bishop of Southwark. Yes.

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I also confirm in London and Rochester. Yeah. And I chair the Church's Council of Corporate Responsibility. That's right.

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I do that probably two days a week. So if you're a retired man, you're doing really quite a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

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That's quite right. How long have you been at Gray's for? I came straight from... Straight from Gray's.

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Yeah, as a matter of fact, I overlapped for a few months. Right. Yeah. I mean, this job came, you know, Roger Eastman?

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Yes. Yeah. Roger Eastman was a trustee of USPG. Right.

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And he also chaired the... But I mean, you know, it's all about the ward. And so he alerted... As I was retiring, he alerted me to this.

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And I'm... I just noticed next week I'm here every day. Right. But quite...

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I do a lot of eating and drinking. You should, it's excellent. And I call it pastoral. Pastoral.

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And I just wanted to gather a celebration of Shakespeare and music. Lovely. And I've given him a chance to play Romeo at the age of 42. I mean, he's just over the moon.

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Besides himself, I suppose. So, I mean, it's all this kind of thing. And I do student stuff. So in terms of what we were discussing earlier,

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sort of $64,000 question is, where do you feel this may or may not go? As an issue in terms of the church and where the church is going to move, if the church is going to move.

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With our current archbishops or with their successors? There are two questions there. One's about the Church of England and the other's about the Anglican Communion. And I'm obviously, not least because of my last job,

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very committed to the latter. Although I know some people think it's just a colonial leftover and we want to get rid of it. The Church of England...

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It's very difficult to know where the Church of England is going. I mean, you can't just say, you commented earlier about one or two of the leadership. The fact is now that with the exception of Bishop London,

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and this may change when he retires very soon, because most of the money now in the diocese is from Mary Trinity Brompton type congregations. With at the moment, the exception of Richard,

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all the bishops in senior positions and a growing number of people in the dioceses generally are evangelicals. I wouldn't put either the word conservative or liberal in front of it.

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I think the only adjective would be church growth evangelicals. And I don't sense any great antipathy, certainly towards gay and lesbian people, and even against any progress

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on their better incorporation and recognition within the life of the church. And there is, of course, if these people are committed to church growth, there is a strong evangelistic argument in favour of inclusivity and not alienating people.

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And it was very clear that our failure, when we thought we're going to get women bishops, and our failure was very bad for us in terms of reputation. Absolutely.

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And that's bad evangelism. So I would not be pessimistic on a solely Church of England front to us making some progress. And maybe we learn some things after the interminable debates

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about the ordination of women to the Episcopate. Maybe we learn some things about how you make progress without alienating people, even if you have to do some quite un-Anglican and un-Catholic things,

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like creating bishops for special constituencies. And as things become normal in society as a whole, it's more likely that the church is going to move in the same direction. That's not necessarily always a good thing.

00:38:59.560 - 00:39:17.160

The way that we pander to consumerism, I happen to think that economic issues are more important than any other issues, including sexuality issues. That's why I spend two days a week in that area of work.

00:39:18.700 - 00:39:39.580

I recognise that inclusivity is part of the justice agenda, but I think that we are very bad, far worse even, when we try to deal with inclusivity and justice for the poor, globally as well as domestically.

00:39:42.640 - 00:39:51.400

And I mean, we have raised our voice a bit against Cameron Osborne, but nowhere near. Not enough. No, no, no.

00:39:54.820 - 00:40:08.460

So how did I get onto that rant? I was asking you about effectively where we're likely to be and the way forward and the current archbishops. So I was saying that from the point of view in the context of the Church of England.

00:40:08.800 - 00:40:31.620

I mean, globally, the Anglican Communion, it's far less clear. I mean, I'm a great fan of Rowan Williams, but he didn't hack it, partly because he let people run rings around him,

00:40:34.160 - 00:40:58.900

and maybe he's too nice and too lowly, whereas Justin has got the chairman of the board, chief executive approach. And what approach do you think John sent to me, Hans? John is a very difficult person to understand and sometimes even to work with.

00:40:59.980 - 00:41:20.460

He's always been very, very nice to me personally. And I'm going up in a couple of months' time to have lunch. I mean, he just has a different style. And do you think that is cultural because of his own experiences?

00:41:22.080 - 00:41:37.860

It's cultural and temperament. But he also, you see, must be coming up to a time. Yes, yes. He's been in for quite a long time, hasn't he?

00:41:39.720 - 00:41:47.700

When was he cutting his dog collar in pieces? That was years and years ago, wasn't it? Principal Garvey's reign. Yes, yes.

00:41:47.860 - 00:42:12.400

And that, I think, was relatively early on in his tenure. So I would think his time is ticking to an end. How credible do you think it is, in terms of the church in this country, that a priest who has licences in two different dioceses can be rebuked by one

00:42:12.400 - 00:42:36.680

and have the licence stripped by another, in terms of the church's position on equal marriage and priesthood? Well, it doesn't look too good. And it may just be that bishops concerned lack the support,

00:42:38.600 - 00:43:13.480

the personal support within the diocese, the collegial support of the house, and also just the experience to deal with these things. I mean, you can rightly criticise some bishops for saying one thing and doing another. But sometimes you keep leadership effective and you keep processes moving forward,

00:43:13.480 - 00:43:38.760

not by making great statements, but simply by letting things happen in a way that you believe will be, in the long term, fruitful. So, you know, Nick Holtham in Salisbury has not said anything publicly that's going to cause people to denounce him.

00:43:39.720 - 00:43:56.920

But he has just let things happen, which is what David did before him. And just to let things move forward. So there shouldn't have been a great storm about Jeremy. It was all happening smoothly.

00:43:58.220 - 00:44:18.780

Now, you may say, well, that's not the way to make a proper witness and to stand up for things that are clearly right and need to be defended publicly. You may well say that. It may be that in the longer processes of time and within this strange thing called

00:44:18.780 - 00:44:47.440

the Church of England, there are ways of doing things which do get us at least travelling in the right direction, if not where we want to be as fast as we might hope. And I mean, I think in both the case you're involved in, but also the Jeremy's case vis-à-vis Winchester and Salisbury, that some bishops have

00:44:49.580 - 00:45:11.500

not really had the experience or the sensitivity to see how these things can be done. Now, you're going to tell me that's a typical prevarication, debauchery, episcopal statement? Wouldn't dream of it. Yeah.

00:45:13.800 - 00:45:30.580

Is there anything we haven't discussed that you would have liked to have discussed? I made some notes this morning. Particularly in respect of the book which we've gone over, but I just want to make sure that you feel I've said everything about that that you wanted to.

00:45:39.440 - 00:46:07.480

No, I think all the things I jotted down this morning we've touched on. Do you feel fairly positive in terms of the Church in the future being able to listen to and embrace everyone regardless of their sexuality, or not? Do you feel a bit jaded about it? Well, I mean the good news is that the progress that we have made

00:46:14.360 - 00:46:41.020

and the fact that Justin, with whom the Board does stop often vis-à-vis CofE and Anglican Communion, is, I think, genuinely trying to find a way forward. That's the good news.

00:46:43.480 - 00:47:08.640

I mean my fear, I suppose, and you don't want an analysis of the Church of England, although I've probably already gone into all sorts of areas which you didn't need to hear about. I mean my problem with the Church of England, I think, is that if we're not careful we become so engrossed with the Church growth agenda that we lose sight of other things,

00:47:09.960 - 00:47:34.600

and in particular other things outside of the life of the Church. I mean it's bad enough simply to measure. I review for the Church Times in Missiology, and I've just done a book which is about global growth of the Church, and where it's grown and where it hasn't grown in the last century,

00:47:35.420 - 00:48:00.540

with not one word of evaluation as to what is the nature of this growth, what is the value, what is the depth. And bishops, I know from my last job, will say to you quietly, stop drawing attention to the fact that our Church is growing in leaps and bounds, because we have breadth but very little depth.

00:48:02.640 - 00:48:33.300

Sorry, so I mean that's bad enough, but it gets even worse if we so focus the agenda on enlarging congregations without an awareness of the need for the Church to be much more prophetic about economic issues, and the fact that we have a role vis-à-vis the nation, bizarrely because of the establishment,

00:48:33.940 - 00:48:57.680

which you can criticise historically, in the same way you can criticise the Church. And so there is a responsibility to be held, and we have a duty, I think, to the life of the nation, whether or not they come to Church, and not simply that they might come to Church. So that would be my sort of analysis of the wider context. Where in that

00:48:57.680 - 00:49:34.060

does the human sexuality set of issues come? Well, we talked about evangelism and that being more inclusive has got to be helpful to promoting the Christian Gospel in all its aspects. Whether those who are now shaping the agenda of the Church of England, and primarily focused on numerical growth, will feel that the human sexuality issue is

00:49:36.840 - 00:50:00.300

a secondary issue. I can't think that they would feel that it's an obstructive issue. So that in itself might be a little bit of encouragement that we might move forward. Touch wood. That's great, thank you very much for that. I think that's going to be really useful.