00:00:00.000 - 00:00:46.020

So, Simeon, I wonder if you could begin by telling me about your childhood, what your parents did, siblings, that kind of thing. Yes, I was born in Henley-on-Thames as a war victory baby in the middle of 1946, so I'm a celebration baby. My father served for six years in the war and after the war he went into business with his brother as a miner building and decorating firm. And my mother, who was in service before the war, came from Wales, a mining family.

00:00:46.400 - 00:01:21.300

Whereabouts in Wales? South Wales, in the Llynfi Valley, north of Maesteg, in a little village called Caedau. And her father was a Barnardos orphan who, after his service in the army at the end and the turn of the 19th, 20th century, went to South Wales to the mines there. That's where he met a Welsh woman and settled there.

00:01:21.580 - 00:01:42.080

I grew up in Swansea. Family from Edinburgh, but they moved to Swansea, so I'm a Celtic crossbreed, I suppose. Yes, well, I've got the Celtic blood in me as well, you see. We've got Irish, Welsh, British, English, no Scots as far as we know.

00:01:42.160 - 00:02:04.760

I only have Scottish and Welsh. My accent goes all over the place. Brothers and sisters? Yes, one sister, three years younger than me, who lives in Henley-on-Thames. She's not married, and at the present, well, she's dying with terminal cancer as we speak.

00:02:05.040 - 00:02:24.520

But, I mean, she's maintaining life at the moment, but she is under hospice care. Oh, okay. And growing up, were you a church-attending family? Yes, my mother had always been church-attending.

00:02:25.040 - 00:02:45.520

My father hadn't, and we did go to church with Mum, but when it was time to be confirmed, my father went to classes as well, and we were confirmed together, and he was baptised one week before me, before we were confirmed. Church of England?

00:02:45.780 - 00:02:59.540

Church of England, yeah. And that was, where was the church? Henley-on-Thames, Holy Trinity, Henley-on-Thames. Okay. And was your faith important to you?

00:02:59.860 - 00:03:27.640

I think it always was, yes. I seemed to have been a rather precocious religious brat when I was little. I was in the choir, I served, and, yeah, so life went on like that, yeah, I maintained my faith. Was it a happy childhood? Very, yes, very warm, loving family life we had.

00:03:28.000 - 00:03:39.760

Okay. I look back on it with great joy and happiness, really. That's good to hear. Boys, girls, who were you attracted to?

00:03:39.940 - 00:04:12.500

Oh, from quite an early age, I think boys, yeah, same sex, really. I didn't know quite what was going on, because everybody else seemed to be attracted to something different from me, but from a very early age, I would say about nine, ten, I think I knew I was going to be different from my peers of the male sex. Yeah. Did you have a name for it in your head? Were you aware of it?

00:04:12.840 - 00:04:39.300

No, I don't think I did, and I think I was rather worried about it, really. Perhaps a little bit older than that, but, you know, because I didn't seem to be going down the normal route of relationships. Was it mentioned or ever mentioned at church when you were growing up, homosexuality? I don't recall it at all. I don't recall the subject being broached at all.

00:04:39.300 - 00:05:19.300

Even in confirmation class, my father came to some, he went to the adult one as well, but they came to us. I mean, the norm was, you know, for married people, male, female, to have a nice family life and have children, etc. And that seemed, I don't recall any other options being mentioned at all. Okay. So, when was your first experience with another boy, just romantic per se, not necessarily a full-on sexual encounter?

00:05:21.540 - 00:05:49.620

I think that must have been when I was, I would say, seventeen. And did you come out as such to your family? No, no, no, no. It was, there was a lot of guilt around having. One was growing up, when I say seventeen, it was interesting, because that was 1963 and the papers were full.

00:05:50.520 - 00:06:13.240

And, do you know, for the life of me, I've lost his name. But there had been an exposure of a diplomat in America, in Russia. And they had taken photographs of him, the Russians, and he had given details away, you know, secrets away. And, I mean, he spent a long time in prison.

00:06:13.440 - 00:06:27.880

I can't, for the life of me, get his name. So, that was all very negative at that time, you know. Was it Guy? No, it wasn't him. No, he was one of the four, wasn't he?

00:06:28.900 - 00:06:40.340

I wish I could remember his name. But, at that time, it was all in the news and over the papers how terrible these queer people were, you see. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're fine.

00:06:40.560 - 00:06:50.000

Are we alright? Yeah, I was just checking it was recording fine, but it is. Yeah, so, you kept it all to yourself? Oh, yes, yeah, yeah.

00:06:50.060 - 00:07:01.060

Okay. Did you feel a sense of conflict between your sexuality and your family? I think I did at that time. I wondered, I would better do something about this.

00:07:01.300 - 00:07:11.720

So, the only way to do it was keep it under wraps and tuck it all away, really. So, I joined a religious order. Oh, okay. Which was the worst thing to do at once.

00:07:13.820 - 00:07:31.500

And which order was that? They were Franciscans. The Society of Anglican Franciscans. And I joined when I was, well, I explored it when I was 18, 19, and actually joined when I was 20.

00:07:32.380 - 00:07:44.560

And for 20 years, I was in, as a friar, Franciscan friar. 20 years? Yeah, I left when I was 40. Okay.

00:07:45.440 - 00:08:06.000

And did you suppress your sexuality? Yes, more or less, yes, yes. Occasional flutters and sort of emotional involvement, but nothing really to, you know, beyond that. Feelings more than actual physical contact.

00:08:06.500 - 00:08:28.680

Did it make you ill, in a sense? It probably did, but I don't think I was aware of it. Ill, ill. I mean, it was a gradual realisation over those years that I'm not going to be able to continue this until the day I die, which is what I promised when I made my life vows.

00:08:30.040 - 00:08:42.780

But I think that was a gradual process. And, yeah. Okay, so what year was that then when you left? 1986, so I joined in 1966.

00:08:43.460 - 00:08:53.380

Yeah. And I left in 1986. I'd spent half my life in a religious order by then. I was 40.

00:08:53.780 - 00:09:08.280

Oh, gosh. The whole thought of that just fills me with all sorts of negative emotions. Does it? Yeah. So what, talk me about the end bit of that.

00:09:08.480 - 00:09:40.320

What was the one final thing that pushed you? Yes, I mean, I had, I did, during that last year, I met somebody that I really felt very close to and wanted to pursue that. And I, it came to a crunch that I, as I said to you, I didn't think I could continue really living a celibate or trying to live a celibate life for another 40 years. So.

00:09:41.280 - 00:09:58.220

And how do you have that conversation when you leave the orders? Did you just say, I've met a nice chap and I'm... Yeah, I was quite honest. I said, I don't think I'm going to be able to fulfil these vows I've taken 13 years ago.

00:09:58.220 - 00:10:40.620

I think I've moved on in my life and my, my, my personhood and more accepting. I think things were beginning to open up a bit, not very much at that time, but things were changing. And there was the possibility to talk more about how one's in a self really, you know. And so with talking to people and coming to the conclusion that it was probably best now to go rather than risk being a liability to the order.

00:10:41.300 - 00:11:09.300

Yeah. And doing something silly or becoming a nasty piece of work who's so bitter and twisted, which one did see in some elderly brethren who were cold and had died many years before. Yeah. But continue to live an unfulfilled existence really.

00:11:09.300 - 00:11:17.320

Yeah. Yeah. So what happens next? After that?

00:11:17.340 - 00:11:31.080

Yeah. Well, I've been ordained in my, while I was a little brother. I was ordained a priest in 1979. So this is 1986.

00:11:32.160 - 00:11:57.100

And so I, and I, that ministry was expressed within the community, within the society. So I was told where to go. Okay. But at that point, of course, on the decision to come out of the order, which coincided really with coming out as, as was possible.

00:11:57.100 - 00:12:15.940

I felt possible at that time in 86, because there were other things that started happening then. But I, so I wrote to the Bishop of Birmingham and said, look, I really want to leave. I can't continue. Have you got any work for me in your diocese?

00:12:16.120 - 00:12:41.560

I was in Edinburgh at the time in Pilton, North Edinburgh. And my parents were in Oxfordshire. So I thought Birmingham would be a good, reasonable distance from them and yet close enough to, to care for them should they need me. Edinburgh's a long way away, which I find Durham my sister at the moment.

00:12:41.980 - 00:12:55.280

So, you know, so anyway, he gave me a job. But I was interested in deaf people because of an experience that I'd had when I was in Edinburgh. And I then worked with deaf people. Deaf, not dead people.

00:12:55.400 - 00:13:13.000

Not deaf. That's right. Deaf people who use sign language. So I learnt sign language and spent the rest of my working ministry with deaf people until I retired. So that's what happened then. Okay.

00:13:14.000 - 00:13:34.280

And I did that in Birmingham. I had a brief interlude in Portsmouth in a hearing church. When you work with deaf you call it the hearing church, you see. And then went back to it because I missed using my skills in signing really, in Lincoln.

00:13:34.840 - 00:13:56.720

Okay. And you were out? Out in your sexuality? Out, yeah, out in the sense that I met somebody and we lived together. But it was not broadcast at all. It was the time, I don't know whether the name Tony Higdon means anything to you.

00:13:56.780 - 00:14:18.800

Stephen mentioned it, yeah. In 1987, he wrote the General Synod to issue an ultimatum to all these peculiar people. But they weren't really very nice. And so we got a lot of negativity at that time.

00:14:19.960 - 00:14:48.240

And so it was not an easy period. You couldn't be really honest with people who you were responsible to like the Bishop of Birmingham and those that had the power because I had no rights as such as an incumbent of a parish or anything. I was purely on a contract in the job I was doing.

00:14:48.580 - 00:15:18.720

Which happened all my working life after the Franciscans. I've never had a living where you get the freehold, where you get security of tenure and you've really got to oblige your copy book to be thrown out. So it may have been difficult for me to get another job if people had not wanted to employ me.

00:15:18.920 - 00:15:39.580

So there were those difficulties, there were those things going around in the church at that time. A lot of negativity, a lot of nasty comments being made about certain people. How did the AIDS crisis fit in with that? That was coming up.

00:15:41.440 - 00:16:01.680

That had started while I was in Edinburgh. And while I was there I did some buddying in Edinburgh. With the knowledge of the Bishop of Edinburgh at that time who was very supportive of work with people with AIDS. Which was very good.

00:16:01.840 - 00:16:20.240

And I continued that in Birmingham as well. All these things because that compounded the Higdon thing really. That these wicked people, this is God having his own back on... You've heard all this before I expect.

00:16:20.620 - 00:16:34.580

The judgement of God on... Yeah, I grew up with it. I was about 17 when all the horrible adverts were on TV with tombstones. And I know that my mother said it was a divine judgement from God.

00:16:34.680 - 00:16:47.940

And I said well he spared the lesbians. And my mum didn't know what to say to that. So yeah, I'm very aware of it. I was probably too young to be fully aware of it.

00:16:47.940 - 00:17:05.080

But I certainly remember it, being freaked out and frightened by the adverts. Isn't that interesting you say that. Because you see those leaflets came through every letterbox in the United Kingdom. I think 86, 87.

00:17:05.120 - 00:17:11.800

Yeah, we got them through the door. Because we used to get rabies ones through the door. And it was very similar. These kind of scary, this is what to do.

00:17:11.800 - 00:17:32.380

The front of the AIDS one was don't die of ignorance. With all these great stones and tombstones. And at the Centre for Deaf People in Birmingham where I was chaplain in the diocese. And based at that centre, along with the social workers, interpreters and everybody else.

00:17:33.560 - 00:17:51.060

I used to do my turn of, I wasn't a trained social worker. But seeing deaf people who might need help filling in forms and that. When I was in the centre. And I do remember very early on while I was doing that and very bad at signing at that time.

00:17:51.700 - 00:18:17.880

This young lad who came in, absolutely petrified with this leaflet. And he couldn't, he had no speech particularly. It was very deaf, it was profoundly deaf and there was hardly any speech. But he was petrified because what it said on the front, don't die of ignorance.

00:18:19.100 - 00:18:35.960

Because at deaf school the teachers had called him an ignorant bastard. Ah, so he thought he was next in line, how awful. And he knew the word ignorant. Ignorant.

00:18:36.660 - 00:18:51.840

And he thought he was going to die because he was ignorant. Because his teachers had told him. You know, lovely education isn't it. A dominant language group again, suppressing a minority.

00:18:54.740 - 00:19:10.820

So that really shook me. That this poor. And you know, I was determined more and more then to get sign language under my belt. In order to be able to perhaps be of use to people.

00:19:11.920 - 00:19:44.260

This minority group, within a minority group, deaf gay people. And so I did that and got involved with the rainbow group that the deaf organised nationally for deaf gay people. So it became supportive of deaf gay people in that context. Have you been involved in a sort of activist work at all for LGBT rights?

00:19:45.360 - 00:19:56.200

I'm trying to think, no. No, I'm rather lazy when it comes to that. I'd like it to come to my door rather. You know, that's the nature of the beast that I am really.

00:19:56.880 - 00:20:13.780

Sorry? In Durham. No, all I do remember was going to the 20th anniversary bash service in St Martin in the Fields in the 90s. I can't remember when it was actually founded now.

00:20:14.380 - 00:20:19.040

About GCM? Yeah. It was GCM when it was founded. Yeah, it was 1976.

00:20:19.640 - 00:20:38.980

So it would have been 1996. There was a, in St Martin in the Fields. And there were postcards published of that event. Muggings here is, my mug shot is right in the middle of a postcard that was produced.

00:20:39.980 - 00:21:12.140

But no, I haven't been that. I've been on a couple of pride marches in a dog collar when I was around. And I did the World AIDS Day helped at that commemoration in Birmingham City Centre and did part of the service and got the cathedral to open its doors at night to allow this motley group of people carrying candles into dirty the cathedral floor. And they were very good at that, very welcoming.

00:21:13.180 - 00:21:33.680

Good dean, good chapter who were very open and welcoming there. But that's really the limit, not much more than that. Being available, doing what I can, but I'm not much of a placard carrier. Yeah, I'm not either.

00:21:34.860 - 00:21:45.380

And when did you meet Stephen? Oh Stephen, I was now after Birmingham. I went briefly to Portsmouth. And that was enough.

00:21:46.440 - 00:21:56.760

I'm from Southampton, I'm very rude about Portsmouth. I loved Portsmouth. Yeah, I really did love Portsmouth. I enjoyed living there.

00:21:57.460 - 00:22:15.760

But I realised about a week in after I got, I didn't want much responsibility. I wanted a breather within just a different sphere of work. But very soon I realised I'd made a mistake. I wasn't happy.

00:22:16.900 - 00:22:40.060

And the vicar then, nice as ninepence before I came, but as soon as I got there I saw his true colours. And especially his attitude to gay people, I thought I'm not going to put up with this. So after about a month or two, I started looking for, I thought I'll go back to deaf ministry. Well I really loved it.

00:22:40.860 - 00:23:03.160

And so I moved on to Lincoln after 18 months actually. And that's a huge area, the Diocese of Lincoln. Lincolnshire is a big, big county. So I lived in Lincoln but I had congregations 45 miles away in different directions.

00:23:03.360 - 00:23:30.580

I had eight worshipping groups of deaf people. And all that entails with all that travel. But Stephen and I went to a day organised by the bishop. Because my arrival, the bishop's arrival was within a month or two.

00:23:31.360 - 00:23:46.760

And a very open bishop we had at Lincoln. And he said, look I've got all these queers in the diocese. And he said nothing's being done for them. I'm a trustee of changing attitude.

00:23:47.440 - 00:23:59.840

And we haven't got a branch in the diocese. Was he straight or? Oh he was straight as a die. But such an open, warm, John Saxby his name was.

00:24:00.720 - 00:24:14.260

And he was bishop for 10 years. He retired before I retired. But our period in Lincoln was coterminous really you see. And yeah so we got round the huge dining room table.

00:24:14.420 - 00:24:30.220

All these gay people that he knew of in the diocese. He invited us all by name. It must have been like one long dating session. But it was lovely to be and to have a bishop that you could actually sit down.

00:24:30.360 - 00:24:37.640

He said everything's confidential here. You say what you like. And that was so refreshing. Yeah.

00:24:38.560 - 00:24:59.200

And so, that's too hasty. I've got to go back because that wasn't the first time. I met Stephen the first time which he's probably said I beg your pardon. Bishop Doe of Swindon, the suffragan of the diocese I think of Salisbury.

00:24:59.600 - 00:25:08.160

Came to talk to his book. I can't remember the name. It's terrible getting old. I can never remember it.

00:25:08.440 - 00:25:21.800

We've got it on the bookshelf there. But it was about homosexuality in the church. And he spoke to this book and led this day for us. And Stephen was one of the people.

00:25:22.040 - 00:25:31.440

It was one of the things put on by the diocese. And this was about homosexuality you see. With somebody who'd written a book. A bishop who'd written a book about it.

00:25:31.440 - 00:25:39.960

Very positive. Bishop Doe. Bishop Doe. What was his first name?

00:25:40.880 - 00:25:48.520

How do you spell Doe? D-O-E. Doe it is. Bishop of Swindon he was.

00:25:48.660 - 00:26:08.020

He became chair or head or whatever they called it of the United Society for the Propagation of the Gospel. A missionary society after that. But he's now I've noticed one of the signatures on the letter to the archbishops. Bishop Doe is one of the people.

00:26:08.960 - 00:26:16.640

So he's on there. As I've just signed it as well while I went in there. Yeah, Tracey's email. I need to do it.

00:26:17.280 - 00:26:25.580

I had to read it to approve Tracey signing it. But I haven't actually signed it yet. So I will do. There's nearly £4,000.

00:26:25.580 - 00:26:33.140

Oh good. So she's quite good. And it's interesting to go through the list. I've just gone through the list very quickly.

00:26:33.280 - 00:26:46.360

All 4,000 names. Scanning it as I go. It's always good to see who's signing these things. So that was the first time that I met Stephen.

00:26:46.980 - 00:26:57.140

And I saw him across a crowded room of about 50 people. And I thought now he looks rather nice. Did she go up to him? Yes.

00:26:57.300 - 00:27:11.800

And I said look this is me. I gave him an able label with my name and address on. I said when you're up in Lincoln. Because he came from the border of Cambridgeshire and Norfolk.

00:27:12.680 - 00:27:22.140

Way down south. 50 miles from Lincoln. But when you're up I said go out for a coffee or a drink or something. Or meet a little.

00:27:23.080 - 00:27:39.280

But he never did. He never did. And the next time was when the Bishop had called this meeting. And that's when I said you never contacted me.

00:27:39.560 - 00:27:49.540

This was about a year later you see. Because the funny thing is that when we'd been up for it. Did he tell you this? This was about three years ago.

00:27:50.260 - 00:27:59.160

We said we must have known. We must have. I think it will be first meet. And he said he got his diary out and said 2002.

00:28:01.880 - 00:28:14.200

But couldn't remember the date. When this meeting with Bishop Doe you see. So we emailed Bishop Doe and said. When were you in Lincoln?

00:28:14.360 - 00:28:28.080

Talking to your book. Because Stephen and myself met at your tour you see. And we think it's about 10 years ago. Whenever it was.

00:28:28.400 - 00:28:38.920

And he emailed back immediately and said. I've got my diary for that year open. And it was. Terrible it was April sometime.

00:28:39.920 - 00:28:53.240

You know my memory. And he said so you've missed your 10th anniversary. But congratulations anyway. Sorry I've diverted there.

00:28:55.760 - 00:29:04.960

So that's where we met. And as they say. The rest is history. So you had your civil partnership.

00:29:05.400 - 00:29:16.500

Yes with the support of the Bishop of Lincoln. Who apologised for not being able to be present. Because there was a meeting of the House of Bishops. Of the Church of England.

00:29:16.860 - 00:29:24.880

Yeah. And he said can you imagine what the Bishop of Winchester would say if I said to him. I can't come. Whenever it was.

00:29:24.880 - 00:29:35.680

Was that Michael Scott joint at the time. Yes very very. Yeah. I was with my aunt and my mother in Winchester.

00:29:37.240 - 00:29:47.840

Walking near the cathedral. And he was coming down the road. And I thought I'm going to have to say something. I don't want to sort of spit in his face.

00:29:47.980 - 00:29:57.200

But I'm going to have to say something. Because he's been so negative. And as he came up he smiled very nicely. And I said homophobe.

00:29:57.840 - 00:30:06.080

Did you. I couldn't stop it. I wish I'd been an ant on the ground. I wasn't in a dog collar or anything.

00:30:06.900 - 00:30:12.980

So he didn't know. He didn't know who you were. No he didn't know who I was. But I must admit he did have a lovely smile.

00:30:13.220 - 00:30:19.720

And these two old ladies I had either side. My aunt and her. My mother and her sister. And.

00:30:20.260 - 00:30:28.220

Was he walking around with a purple dress on. Well not the dress. He had his purple stock and a suit. With a nice bit of gold.

00:30:28.460 - 00:30:37.180

Yeah a bit of bling. Yeah sorry. This is all being recorded you see. The posterity.

00:30:37.400 - 00:30:47.500

I'm not. We're not submitting. I don't have to. I can pick soundbites out for the point of quotes.

00:30:47.960 - 00:30:54.940

Yeah. But we have to put the full transcript in. I don't mind. The poor man's dead now anyway.

00:30:55.100 - 00:31:05.360

He's gone. But I was surprised myself when I saw him. And heard his attitudes. I just couldn't stop saying it.

00:31:05.420 - 00:31:14.300

I thought I've just. Yeah. I mean I live in the Diocese of Winchester. Yes.

00:31:14.840 - 00:31:23.200

It's not significantly better. At the moment. The Deakin is. Not being very nice to people.

00:31:23.460 - 00:31:27.680

Like Jeremy. Yes. Davis. Davis.

00:31:27.880 - 00:31:35.800

Jeremy Davis. The canon of Salisbury. And his opera singer partner. Yeah.

00:31:35.800 - 00:31:42.300

Or husband I think. They're married actually aren't they? Yeah they got married. What's your.

00:31:43.920 - 00:31:58.180

What's your take on the Church of England? Do you see it lasting? I think Christianity will last. Whether the incarnation within the Church of England will last.

00:31:58.380 - 00:32:05.460

I'm not quite sure. But it probably will. Because what everyone says about it. The very fact.

00:32:06.280 - 00:32:13.120

That we can have this conversation. Whereas in the Roman church. They are frightened silly. Of.

00:32:13.420 - 00:32:21.860

Of. People knowing where they stand on things. I mean. You know it may be messy.

00:32:22.060 - 00:32:29.240

And it certainly is messy. But at least we have a voice. And can. And which we which we found.

00:32:29.520 - 00:32:35.940

I mean 30 years ago it was a bit different. But there is. Among people. There is a confidence.

00:32:36.380 - 00:32:43.360

To be able to. If you like come out publicly. And say. Like this letter.

00:32:44.240 - 00:32:52.760

That wouldn't have been possible. 30 years ago. And it is not possible in many. Communions of the Christian church.

00:32:53.260 - 00:33:01.180

Churches. You know there's just not that. So. The dear old CFE is not.

00:33:01.640 - 00:33:08.580

Stupid really. By cricket bats. Iron balls. But I mean goodness me.

00:33:09.420 - 00:33:16.440

It's quite an amazing thing. If you want to believe in God the Holy Spirit. Just look at the Church of England. Because it would never have.

00:33:17.200 - 00:33:25.920

Except for the Holy Spirit. I mean it wouldn't be there. Because it just doesn't work on paper. Doesn't work at the best of times.

00:33:28.500 - 00:33:38.300

Yeah. Have you personally experienced. Prejudice homophobic prejudice. And if so what form did it take.

00:33:40.640 - 00:33:49.760

I personally haven't. Come on. I personally haven't. I mean I know it exists of course.

00:33:50.460 - 00:33:56.100

And if you like that. I've been on the receiving end. But not in a direct way. Yeah.

00:33:57.300 - 00:34:04.560

I've had some really good experiences. Within the church. But I know I do know it's there. And.

00:34:05.880 - 00:34:13.240

There are two or three people. I know who have removed themselves. When I have been. Around.

00:34:13.600 - 00:34:21.280

Because I know that they probably. Can't cope. With having a great big poof. Doing things.

00:34:22.240 - 00:34:30.920

So. But it's not been a direct thing. I know. I am in one sense.

00:34:31.080 - 00:34:40.720

I'm fortunate enough. I haven't had to cope with. Direct homophobia really. Neither has Oscar.

00:34:41.020 - 00:34:51.600

No. Bless you. Yeah. What do you do.

00:34:52.000 - 00:34:57.620

At the moment. I mean talk about your life. These days. Well there we are.

00:34:57.840 - 00:35:04.940

I'm in my dotage really. I'm sort of here. With with Stephen. We came up here because.

00:35:05.880 - 00:35:12.740

Neither of us has got much. Roots home. To talk. I mean I've just got a sister.

00:35:13.240 - 00:35:19.900

Who's not married or. Have any children. He has a non relationship. With his sister really.

00:35:20.460 - 00:35:28.780

Was never part of her family. She just doesn't want to know. And although he's still got cousins. And that there isn't that relationship.

00:35:29.100 - 00:35:34.400

That wants one. That draws you to be down. Near a family. Yeah.

00:35:34.920 - 00:35:42.740

So we thought. Let's go somewhere completely different. Ourselves. So that's why we're up here.

00:35:42.920 - 00:35:51.660

We both like the northeast. And came up. Well. Five years this summer.

00:35:52.280 - 00:35:58.380

Full time. Living up. Sorry. What was the actual question.

00:35:58.380 - 00:36:03.780

No I'm just I'm curious. Are you. Are you involved with. In charge.

00:36:04.080 - 00:36:09.620

I know that Stephen is still. Saying his reader. Oh yes he is. Well I help out.

00:36:10.340 - 00:36:18.400

In parishes where they need cover. Otherwise I'm attached to the local parish. Why go to church. Even if I'm not doing anything.

00:36:19.280 - 00:36:24.980

And. But at the moment because of. My sister's health. Yeah.

00:36:25.180 - 00:36:32.560

And the need to go down there. Once a month for. 10 days or so. And not knowing what.

00:36:33.260 - 00:36:39.660

How. She's going to be. Yeah they are. I don't commit myself at the moment to.

00:36:40.260 - 00:36:49.040

Anything up here because I don't want to say. I'll do that in three weeks time. And find out I've got to. Go down and try and find somebody to cover me.

00:36:49.360 - 00:36:55.320

When I've been asked to cover you season. So I. That's how I'm doing this at the moment. Yeah.

00:36:55.320 - 00:37:02.300

But. So it's a helping our capacity really. Being available. For holidays cover.

00:37:03.060 - 00:37:10.320

Vacancies ill health. Yeah. So. What are the major changes you've experienced.

00:37:12.120 - 00:37:17.940

In your lifetime. So far. What things in society. Have changed.

00:37:20.020 - 00:37:26.940

Well. What one has noticed over the years. I think is that. Changes in society.

00:37:27.640 - 00:37:33.980

Is how different it is. From when one was growing up in. In the sense of. For want of a better word.

00:37:34.160 - 00:37:42.940

I think respect. I. I suppose that may come from also. Coming from.

00:37:43.940 - 00:37:51.040

That period of knowing your. Place within society. And all that has gone. In one sense.

00:37:51.220 - 00:38:02.960

I mean it's a. It's a very difficult society for people. Yeah. It's.

00:38:04.100 - 00:38:08.300

Things that. Happen now. Would never have happened then. The whole.

00:38:08.840 - 00:38:15.220

Openness of society is something. I sometimes think about. You know. Gosh.

00:38:15.460 - 00:38:22.220

That was like that when I was young. Yeah. The opportunities that people have now. I mean I was.

00:38:22.220 - 00:38:30.820

In one sense factory father. When I was little. You know I mean. There was no chance of me.

00:38:31.100 - 00:38:41.100

Going to university. You know. It came from a working class background. It was going to university.

00:38:41.560 - 00:38:48.060

I mean it wasn't. It wasn't even heard of. Within the family you know. Education was still.

00:38:49.000 - 00:38:56.180

11 plus. Creaming off. Which I failed. In spite of always being one or.

00:38:56.700 - 00:39:04.480

First or second in the class. And somebody. 10. Down from me.

00:39:04.740 - 00:39:12.820

It was always middling in the class. Failed. But her parents. How they do it.

00:39:12.960 - 00:39:16.540

I don't know. But she went to grammar school. Money under the table. Yeah.

00:39:16.540 - 00:39:24.080

And I always. And I thought. Go and stick up for me. But it wasn't part of what.

00:39:24.340 - 00:39:32.160

They would have done. This is how things are. And that's society. That's you know know your place.

00:39:32.360 - 00:39:40.240

In one sense. So I did go. Two years later I managed to do. An exam to get.

00:39:40.400 - 00:39:47.740

Because once you were in the secondary. Modern. System. And you were churned out.

00:39:48.120 - 00:39:54.260

For shop assistants. Hairdressing factories. That was. But.

00:39:54.640 - 00:40:03.700

Two years later at the age of 13. I managed to pass an exam. Which got me to a school in Reading. Which actually did GCEs.

00:40:04.440 - 00:40:11.340

And so I did. I managed to get there. And did get GCEs. Which was.

00:40:12.740 - 00:40:20.040

But even then. University seemed to be. Wasn't a thing you really thought of. From my background.

00:40:21.280 - 00:40:28.720

And that's the. That's a wonderful thing to see now. The educational possibilities. For young people.

00:40:28.900 - 00:40:36.980

And I think that's wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. So those sort of things.

00:40:37.200 - 00:40:43.540

I think. In society. And also with. With also the acceptance.

00:40:44.120 - 00:40:52.320

Of difference as well. Back in the 50s and 60s. If you were different. Yeah you didn't want to be different.

00:40:52.880 - 00:40:59.780

You wanted to conform. And that's all part of that. Knowing your place as well. And being a part of.

00:41:00.540 - 00:41:06.000

Society. And. Yeah. Yeah.

00:41:07.320 - 00:41:15.260

I mean I have. Two teenagers. And. They just don't get.

00:41:15.260 - 00:41:21.160

At all why there's an issue. With LGBT things. In the church. No.

00:41:21.500 - 00:41:25.260

Totally nonplussed. Yes. Yeah. They almost don't believe.

00:41:26.660 - 00:41:34.760

That I'm doing this project. And why there's a point to it. So that's. I mean.

00:41:35.620 - 00:41:43.980

Obviously I'm a bit younger than you. But I grew up. In the 80s really was my. Being a teenager was all in the 80s.

00:41:44.000 - 00:41:49.840

Yeah. And you didn't talk about it. No. I mean I certainly.

00:41:50.380 - 00:41:56.840

I identified by I certainly. Did not talk about it. And it was frightening and it was scary then. Yeah.

00:41:57.360 - 00:42:03.560

So. To me things really. For me it's only I think the last 10 years. That things have.

00:42:04.720 - 00:42:07.660

Feels a lot different. Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

00:42:09.980 - 00:42:35.000

Do you think the future is. Bright for LGBT people of faith on the whole. This meeting in Canterbury at the moment. This polarity between these two.

00:42:37.260 - 00:42:48.600

Warring factions. Is interesting because I. Went to Zambia to work. Because I trained as a nurse as well.

00:42:48.760 - 00:42:56.180

When I was a brother. And went around a leprosarium. And health center. In the bush.

00:42:56.580 - 00:43:05.460

In Zambia. And. Although that church. That province isn't.

00:43:07.440 - 00:43:14.840

As vocal. As some others like Nigeria. Uganda Sudan and. Others.

00:43:15.680 - 00:43:24.260

I mean the place of homicide. I. We knew a white farmer on the farm block where we were. You had had a.

00:43:24.880 - 00:43:34.940

An affair with a black. Person and was actually caught. And in prison for 12 years when I was there. A relationship with a black.

00:43:36.320 - 00:43:48.140

So. Yes there would be. But I don't. In a church which is trying to.

00:43:48.680 - 00:43:54.980

Stay together. With. The. Western part of the church for want of.

00:43:55.100 - 00:44:01.520

A better term. The white. American dominated. English dominated.

00:44:01.760 - 00:44:10.640

European dominated. But. I think there's going to have to be some sort. Of break.

00:44:11.520 - 00:44:21.440

Because I don't think we're going to have. The Church of England tries to live with two different. Integrities for all its life. Like women priests and those who oppose them.

00:44:22.500 - 00:44:33.960

And that they're both equally valid. I think this meeting in Canterbury is going to. Show that probably. These two integrities of inclusiveness.

00:44:34.520 - 00:44:42.780

And exclusiveness. In this. Southern black. Are not going to be able to be reconciled.

00:44:43.120 - 00:44:49.620

Yes. And that there will be. Some sort of. Shift.

00:44:50.280 - 00:44:58.200

To. Loosening the links. Between the provinces those who want to. Include people.

00:44:58.400 - 00:45:07.040

People. And those who want to. What they say go back to biblical standards. Stoning people.

00:45:08.500 - 00:45:16.300

Divorcing women. By just saying I divorce you. You know I mean if. Women in tents for a week during their period.

00:45:16.780 - 00:45:24.040

Altogether. Yeah. It's that tribal sort of. Understanding of faith which you see in the Old Testament.

00:45:24.840 - 00:45:34.360

Which is prevalent in. Non-Western cultures. Tribalism is very strong. And you know I don't think.

00:45:34.360 - 00:45:42.020

There is. There can be much. Relationship between the two. Well.

00:45:42.580 - 00:45:48.620

You see a divorce. There's going to be as I think. Can well be said. Wasn't it.

00:45:48.800 - 00:45:56.320

You can become. You can remain family but some families. Don't talk to each other. Some members of the family.

00:45:56.500 - 00:46:07.380

Don't talk to each other. But you're never not a member of the family. Okay. I mean Stephen and his sister's case in point.

00:46:07.680 - 00:46:14.880

Yeah. They are family but they're not family. You know. There's no relationship between them.

00:46:15.320 - 00:46:22.780

But they're blood relatives. Yeah. And I looking at it in that way. I can't see.

00:46:23.200 - 00:46:33.880

I think. After this meeting and. Where the true colors are then laid out. I think there's going to become.

00:46:34.100 - 00:46:44.420

There have to be some. Understanding that there's going to be a. Whether you call it a split or. A movement away from.

00:46:45.600 - 00:46:55.620

And that will free the Western. Church I think. Those. That might use in terms like progressive and everything.

00:46:55.880 - 00:47:01.980

Because. But those who. Who are trying to be more inclusive. Of people.

00:47:03.180 - 00:47:11.140

Then. People who want to use a book to. Knock them over the head. You know to condemn people.

00:47:13.040 - 00:47:25.520

There it does stand a chance if that happens. But that will be at the detriment. Of gay people within the tribal churches. Because they will have no voice.

00:47:26.480 - 00:47:38.080

And that would be a bad thing so. Trying to stay together is the best option. For the sake of. Those who live under oppressive.

00:47:38.760 - 00:47:44.300

Yeah. Regime. Yeah. Supported by an oppressive church.

00:47:46.140 - 00:47:53.560

Like Uganda that agreeing with 15 years. Imprisonment for. You know I mean. The archbishop if you.

00:47:53.780 - 00:48:04.200

I have no nothing in common with that. But for the sake of the people who are living. Under that system. I can perhaps.

00:48:04.420 - 00:48:12.700

And we can in this. Freer society. Be a voice for them. On the world stage.

00:48:13.120 - 00:48:21.680

Yeah. Because isn't that in the Commonwealth. Well we got 50 odd countries in the Commonwealth. And 40 of them.

00:48:22.580 - 00:48:29.240

Still have oppressive legislation. Which we exported. With the Empire. Yeah.

00:48:29.720 - 00:48:37.580

And we've moved on. But they're still stuck. And it's reinforced by this. Tribal.

00:48:38.200 - 00:48:46.720

Literal understanding. Of a book. Which doesn't wash with us in the West anymore. Really.

00:48:48.560 - 00:48:54.100

It's the aspects of the Commonwealth. That the Queen never mentions on Christmas Day. Absolutely. God bless her.

00:48:54.340 - 00:48:58.900

And she tries her best. But absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah.

00:48:59.140 - 00:49:07.600

Absolutely right. Just to close. If someone had to describe you in three words. What would those three words be?

00:49:12.120 - 00:49:19.280

You can say anything you like. Flabby. Wishy washy. Wishy washy.

00:49:19.480 - 00:49:23.020

With a hyphen. Yeah that's one word. I'll let you off. Is it?

00:49:27.960 - 00:49:36.020

A third word. Okay. Okay. I think I'm okay.

00:49:36.320 - 00:49:45.980

Yeah. I think you're okay. But the flabby and the wishy washy. And somebody who doesn't really want confrontation.

00:49:46.740 - 00:50:00.800

Particularly even though I did shout homophobe to a Bishop. That's pretty heroic actually. I didn't wait for the answer. Ant and mam on either end.

00:50:02.160 - 00:50:10.260

Thank you very much for your time. Thank you. There Oscar. That's all.