00:00:00.000 - 00:00:16.780

So, to begin with, just to get us started, I'd love to hear a little bit about your background and perhaps a little bit about your childhood and where you grew up to begin with. Over to you. Yes, I was born just before the Second World War,

00:00:17.440 - 00:00:36.820

therefore my early childhood was very much affected by the conditions that we were living under at the time. My father was around but not always present. He was a conscientious objector and worked in hospital work, so we saw him fairly often, well, most of the time really.

00:00:37.600 - 00:00:59.880

And he was a very anxious person but a very caring parent. My mother carried a huge burden, really, because she and my maternal grandfather spent most of their time working very hard at maintaining the family home and running a business.

00:01:01.560 - 00:01:26.860

We were brought up as Congregationalists in an independent church, which is one of two in my hometown. My father didn't find it a congenial place all the time because of his stance on pacifism. Some people were very hostile to him.

00:01:28.000 - 00:01:49.040

But I had a very happy childhood and we were very much involved in church life and I appreciated the cultural aspects of this. I was brought up in a musical atmosphere, you might say. My aunt was a music teacher, piano teacher, and taught me.

00:01:50.940 - 00:02:11.060

And so we grew up listening to a lot of music. And my church favoured a rather traditional form of music and the choir would sing excerpts from oratorios and that sort of thing. In the evening sermons particularly.

00:02:13.100 - 00:02:41.800

We heard a lot from lay preachers in church, some of the women. But there was a minister present most of the time. One of my earliest memories was of the minister of our church, John Banks, who died after an accident getting out of a train in the dark.

00:02:42.940 - 00:03:03.580

And I remember my father telling me about that. So I think we had a very, you might say a very religious background, but it wasn't a seriously fundamentalist background, although we did rely a lot on the Bible, as Protestants tend to,

00:03:04.480 - 00:03:24.140

for our sources of authority. But much of what I remember of particularly the New Testament stemmed from Sunday school and church. As far as I can recall, sexuality never entered into this dialogue.

00:03:27.480 - 00:03:45.560

Although I was aware that there were two women in the congregation who were close friends, and we would now call them partners. But women's sexuality really wasn't ever talked about in those days, nor was men's for that matter.

00:03:46.680 - 00:04:11.940

As far as I knew, there was no male gay person in the congregation, but there was in the other church, which was our sort of rival congregation. And I think quite early on I recognized that he was a single male, whereas most people were married.

00:04:12.780 - 00:04:34.100

And therefore I grew up with an awareness that not everybody conformed to the norm, as it were. But since the issue of homosexuality was never mentioned, there was nothing threatening about anything that I discovered

00:04:34.100 - 00:04:51.740

as time went on about my own sexuality. I suppose it was only really when I started to feel anxious about the possibility that if I fancied somebody, they might not reciprocate and they might feel uncomfortable about it.

00:04:52.600 - 00:05:15.860

But I did know a number of boys in school who I'm sure were gay. One of them was quite well known. He's well known in the media these days, Ian McKellen, so there's no harm in mentioning his name.

00:05:17.280 - 00:05:36.020

And I was at primary school with him, and in fact I knew the family slightly. But there was no mention of sexuality in those days, so it wasn't an issue. I think my father recognized that I had a crush on a friend when I got to secondary school, grammar school.

00:05:37.500 - 00:05:57.320

And he never seemed to feel uncomfortable about it. He may have been anxious, but he was an anxious person about most things anyway, so the issue was never raised. He did advise me at one point not to worry too much

00:05:57.320 - 00:06:15.020

if I couldn't fix my friend Joe's bike. But that's the only thing I can recall. But of course you were aware that since sexuality was never mentioned, it was not just a taboo subject, it was a taboo activity,

00:06:15.400 - 00:06:25.740

if you went in for that sort of thing. Because otherwise it would have been talked about and wasn't. And how did that make you feel? When you were aware that perhaps you were different?

00:06:25.740 - 00:06:48.660

I think I just picked up that whatever your feelings were, you didn't talk about them, you kept them to yourself. I think when I got to grammar school, there were occasional uncomfortable moments.

00:06:51.980 - 00:07:14.880

But I think on the whole, you just kept your mouth shut and might have shown interest in people from time to time. But my best friends were very, I felt very comfortable with and didn't show any unusual affection towards them, I think.

00:07:16.300 - 00:07:35.300

One friend that I had at the time is still a friend and he was straight, we'd say. And when he went into the Royal Air Force, we used to correspond weekly

00:07:36.160 - 00:07:51.700

and the letter always ended up with, Love, Joe, John. And I think there was a genuine affection, but it wasn't sexual in the genital sense at all.

00:07:53.980 - 00:08:12.320

The one or two people I recognised as what we might have called puss in those days didn't attract me at all, I found them very unappealing. So there was never any question of uncomfortable encounters with them

00:08:12.320 - 00:08:33.380

because I just had no interest in them. I suppose the first time the issue might have been raised in church, in a church context, was when I went to a conference,

00:08:33.880 - 00:08:56.420

a ministry conference for people who might have been considering ministry in the church. And one of the interviewers who held a position in the church, in the Congregational Union, I think in the Manchester area,

00:09:00.220 - 00:09:15.560

startled me slightly when we were talking about ministry and he told me he thought I would make a wonderful minister, at which point he put his hand on my right knee and grasped it rather firmly.

00:09:16.920 - 00:09:31.140

And I thought that was slightly unusual, but I didn't find it offensive. And I suppose that was the first time I might have been aware that the church

00:09:31.140 - 00:09:46.100

might have had difficulty with the issue. Had you considered then going into some form of ministry within the church? Well I was on the point of thinking about it, I wouldn't say I'd made any decision,

00:09:46.820 - 00:10:01.440

but I was always a rather pious little child. I enjoyed church, I thought church was great. There were some very boring sermons I can recall, but at the same time I thought it all seemed rather worthwhile.

00:10:01.800 - 00:10:21.420

I thought goodness was really a good thing. And to that extent I think any form of love between human beings I would have considered a positive thing. So what was it then that you decided not to go into

00:10:21.420 - 00:10:38.160

the ordained ministry for want of a better expression? I didn't have a strong feeling of vocation. I had an interest in the subject, but not in the role of minister. I don't think I ever saw myself in that role, in that light at all.

00:10:39.260 - 00:10:54.560

Were you aware, and you mentioned it briefly, were you aware of a growing tension between the gay community and the church? Not particularly, because as I say,

00:10:54.680 - 00:11:12.700

the issue was never raised in my church circle in those days. It was just, it was not an issue. Although there was a sort of subtext, when any mention of sexuality came into conversation

00:11:12.700 - 00:11:20.180

or into public discussion, I mean when people talked about marriage for instance, it was quite clear what they were talking about was between a man and a woman.

00:11:20.180 - 00:11:41.500

And the rules were fairly straight. Divorce was frowned upon. And therefore the possibility of having same-sex relationship on any sort of permanent basis was never a real issue.

00:11:42.020 - 00:11:59.260

How did that make you feel? It made me feel that I didn't quite know how I would live my life in the future. It was something that was very much an unknown quantity.

00:12:01.380 - 00:12:18.620

And I don't suppose it was until I actually, although the initial stages of any sort of sexual relationship are the sense of falling in love, but that in itself didn't necessarily lead

00:12:18.620 - 00:12:32.700

to a permanent relationship. Although I suppose one hoped that it would continue. And it was important. And therefore I think I was very careful

00:12:32.700 - 00:12:49.620

not to give any cause for anxiety on the part of another person I'd have said. And I can remember one occasion when I was with my friend whom I mentioned just now,

00:12:51.240 - 00:13:01.840

who wrote to me when he was in the IRA, we went on holiday, there were four of us, and we went off in a very old Ford van and had a trip round the south-east of England.

00:13:03.080 - 00:13:15.440

And we camped out. And I remember on one occasion, and I suppose he was trying to ascertain something about my attitude towards him,

00:13:16.240 - 00:13:29.780

he got into my sleeping bag. But I was so terrified of doing anything that might upset him that I didn't reciprocate, indicate any feelings that he might have shown towards me.

00:13:30.300 - 00:13:42.200

But I think it showed that he was a kindly, intolerant, understanding person. So I think that was affirmative for me. It was a good... it wasn't a bad experience.

00:13:42.940 - 00:13:59.000

Even though, as I say, it didn't go any further. And as time went on, did you become more aware of... I mean, with the advent of channels like Channel 4, where they were focusing on LGBT issues a lot of the time,

00:13:59.700 - 00:14:11.400

and with conversations within the church around sexuality, did you become more aware of the conflict between... sometimes between church and society together, and human sexuality?

00:14:11.880 - 00:14:24.860

Yes, it did surface from time to time. Usually in the form of a scandal of some sort. A public scandal. Some figure in public might have been...

00:14:26.240 - 00:14:37.440

might have been targeted by the media. But it wasn't really until I got to university that I got to grips with the thing. And of course, until I was 29 years old,

00:14:37.480 - 00:14:45.420

it was illegal to be gay. Well, I don't think that. Sure. But at university, I came across people

00:14:45.420 - 00:15:03.080

who were obviously very sympathetic and understanding. Particularly one woman whom I still know, who seemed to accept it as perfectly normal. She had a boyfriend who had mixed in circles in London

00:15:03.080 - 00:15:09.520

where homosexuality was not considered anything out of the ordinary. So she was very tolerant and understanding. Well, more than tolerant.

00:15:09.920 - 00:15:16.860

I think she was in love with me. She met up with somebody else, and she fell in love with him, and I fell in...

00:15:16.860 - 00:15:25.720

No, he fell in love with her, and I fell in love with him. So it was a very curious, triangular situation. But it was very productive,

00:15:26.020 - 00:15:37.440

and lasted quite a long time. He died some years ago now. But she and I still converse from time to time, although she's very disabled.

00:15:38.440 - 00:15:54.260

They had one child who was female, and is now male. So we're talking about university, and your friendships that you had there.

00:15:54.720 - 00:16:07.100

Yes. I met the Anglican chaplain in the university. Although I was still Congregationalist, I was feeling I wanted to spread my wings a bit,

00:16:07.100 - 00:16:21.020

and through the student Christian movement, I met more people, including Franciscan friar, who became a very good friend.

00:16:22.040 - 00:16:33.060

And he was one of the first people I met who seemed completely open and willing to befriend me. I didn't have any inhibition about that.

00:16:33.700 - 00:16:48.320

There was nothing sexual about it. On the surface, anyway. But it became quite clear that he, under any circumstances,

00:16:48.380 - 00:16:57.440

would be very supportive, and I told him about my sexuality. So I think that was the first time I'd really got to grips with the whole issue,

00:16:57.580 - 00:17:07.300

in the context, in a sort of theological context. And how old were you then? I would be about 20.

00:17:13.540 - 00:17:24.300

And did that kind of journey of self-understanding or acceptance and acknowledgement continue after university? Was there a kind of progression in that?

00:17:25.760 - 00:17:35.720

Well, I maintained contact with him after I left university. I'd already visited the friar in Alnmouth, in Northumberland,

00:17:35.940 - 00:17:47.740

when they were setting that up, and felt very much at home there. And I realised that for a lot of people, the religious life, as it was understood,

00:17:48.180 - 00:17:59.440

was the answer. And probably had been throughout the Church's history, although it was never publicly acknowledged.

00:18:00.680 - 00:18:09.920

And of course, that's continued till the present day, and is still causing problems for some parts of the Church.

00:18:11.060 - 00:18:19.100

But we're getting to grips with it now. Is that something you had considered then? Were you considering potentially sort of a monastic...

00:18:19.100 - 00:18:30.840

Well, inevitably, I thought of the possibility. But I felt fairly certain that I wanted to be free to make relationships

00:18:31.480 - 00:18:46.500

apart from any sort of Church-sponsored institutions. I did develop friendships with a number of people

00:18:48.100 - 00:18:58.540

at that time, and was very grateful of that. Although I wouldn't have said that I pursued them.

00:19:00.500 - 00:19:18.840

The person who first made a beeline for me, who is still a friend, actually, didn't appeal to me in that way. So, although he helped me

00:19:18.840 - 00:19:29.480

to overcome some inhibitions, it wasn't great. It didn't lead to any sort of permanent sexual relationship.

00:19:32.340 - 00:19:44.600

Although, he was pretty keen, pretty persistent in love, so to say. But that wasn't a bad thing. It was very good.

00:19:45.240 - 00:19:53.780

And he was also sympathetic to my religious point of view. And I, in fact, met him through Brother Michael DeFrancisco,

00:19:54.020 - 00:20:08.820

whom I mentioned just now. So, one thing leads to another, and I became more open and accepting of the possibility of a

00:20:09.820 - 00:20:22.340

longer-standing relationship. But I still wasn't sure whether there was any future in what we might regard now

00:20:22.340 - 00:20:29.600

as a partnership or a marriage between people of the same sex. I was always interested in the sort of biblical aspects of this,

00:20:29.720 - 00:20:40.680

and didn't find anything in the Bible that really put me off at all. I mean, I occasionally came across negative views in the New Testament,

00:20:41.340 - 00:20:53.400

but they didn't seem to me crucial. And as far as I could see, I've been brought up to pay most attention to the teaching of the Gospels

00:20:53.400 - 00:21:10.480

and the recorded words of Jesus. I found nothing in that to deter me. Okay, great. Is there anything else sort of in that period,

00:21:11.040 - 00:21:27.340

sort of maybe from childhood into university, that I should have asked you about, or that sticks out in your memory? I was a fairly private person,

00:21:27.520 - 00:21:36.160

and I didn't share my inner thoughts much with other people. I mentioned Brother Michael. I mentioned the chap at the University of Greenville.

00:21:37.200 - 00:21:51.260

He died, well, they both did, now. But Graham's wife, Sue, was a very close friend of mine. And she was quite a considerable writer and feminist at the time.

00:21:52.200 - 00:22:08.400

And I'm still in touch with her many years later. So I always felt that there were people around who supported me. But I never felt that I wanted to be

00:22:08.400 - 00:22:22.000

particularly militant about it. I would have probably stood up for my beliefs if anybody challenged me. But, as I say, there was very little public discussion

00:22:22.000 - 00:22:36.820

in those days. I mean, in church circles. Okay, so then moving perhaps into more recent times, or perhaps when you left university,

00:22:38.540 - 00:22:48.480

you're heavily involved in 3F. Do you want to talk a little about that and the journey you've been on with 3F and how long that's been going on for

00:22:48.480 - 00:23:02.820

and your involvement, and just talk around that perhaps a little bit? Well, 3F came about through LGCM, which I joined at the beginning of the organisation.

00:23:03.620 - 00:23:13.620

I was there at the first meeting. And that came about really because I'd moved to London, because I felt that was the only way I could really live the life I wanted to lead.

00:23:14.540 - 00:23:23.860

And it coincided with the fact that I'd fallen in love with somebody else who wanted to work in the film industry and came to the London Film School,

00:23:23.980 - 00:23:38.520

so he spent quite a lot of time in London. And I'd realised by then that probably the best option for me would be to get well away from my roots

00:23:38.520 - 00:23:50.780

and live a life of my own. And that's what I did, in fact. But that was after I'd already spent some time teaching in Lancashire.

00:23:53.780 - 00:24:20.140

In fact, the experience of teaching made me realise that I wasn't going to shed the sense that if I was going to find anybody to share my life with, it wasn't going to be a woman, that was for sure.

00:24:21.080 - 00:24:35.380

And I met people whom I became fond of, and in fact had several casual relationships with people at the time. But the person I mentioned just now

00:24:37.020 - 00:24:54.540

with whom I wanted to set up home in London, I met quite by accident, as it were. And he was 11 years younger than me, the same age now, I think, as my younger sister.

00:24:55.540 - 00:25:14.300

And I think now that age difference I would have considered to be fairly important at the time. It was one of those magical moments when you, I wouldn't say throw caution to the wind,

00:25:14.400 - 00:25:35.140

but you realise that that became a major factor in my thinking about my future and so on and so forth. So eventually, as I say, we set up home in London. That didn't last.

00:25:37.080 - 00:26:02.140

And it was the time of a major AIDS epidemic. And when I recall the course of events that followed, it was a very worrying time. Although I was teaching in London,

00:26:02.560 - 00:26:13.340

and that was my major preoccupation, I was also very nervous about making any contact with anybody because of the possibility of infection. And so I didn't,

00:26:15.240 - 00:26:28.900

except on one or two very rare occasions. After I'd been teaching for a time, I realised I needed more qualifications, and I did an advanced course

00:26:28.900 - 00:26:43.220

in the Institute of Education in London. And therefore, I'd been already exposed to, well, exposed to, I'd already experienced something of London life.

00:26:44.200 - 00:26:54.280

Although I was preoccupied and spent most of my time with the course I was doing, it was a one-year course, and therefore that was a major issue.

00:26:54.740 - 00:27:04.800

But I did get around in London, met people and went to different churches. I should have said, by the way, that when I was at university, I became an Anglican.

00:27:06.780 - 00:27:24.160

But still maintain, to this present day, a very independent point of view about things. And can be highly critical of the institutional churches where we're carrying on in all sorts of ways,

00:27:24.480 - 00:27:38.020

liturgically, biblically, and in personal relations too. So... I had a taste of London life.

00:27:38.220 - 00:27:50.460

I went back to my job. I met this friend, Geoff, and after a year, I decided I needed to make a move. So that was...

00:27:50.460 - 00:28:00.760

that was where I stood. When I came to live in London, I was already thinking along the lines of, I wouldn't say being militant,

00:28:01.000 - 00:28:16.720

but of being freer to express my point of view in church circles. And having found LGCM, I felt that that was the thing I should be concerned about.

00:28:17.460 - 00:28:29.360

Finding a church which... where I felt at home was not easy. There weren't any. Every church at that time was pretty careful

00:28:29.360 - 00:28:47.680

about expressing a radical view of this. But I did meet people from time to time, including clergy who were quite clearly gay and were prepared to risk their reputations

00:28:47.680 - 00:29:00.860

by pursuing a gay relationship. So that gave me a sort of certain confidence. But the irony of this, of course, is that subsequently I never, in fact,

00:29:01.440 - 00:29:16.300

made the sort of relationship, found the sort of friendship which would have led to... what you might call a permanent partnership. But I still felt that the church had...

00:29:16.300 - 00:29:27.720

needed to get its act together about this. So LGCM seemed important to me. And being in touch with people who were similarly minded was important.

00:29:28.660 - 00:29:41.900

And so through that I met Richard Kirker and became friends with him. Other people I particularly remember were Malcolm Johnson, who was the director of St Lothar's.

00:29:44.440 - 00:29:57.560

And one or two other clergy who were quite clearly gay. And as an organist I got around quite a number of churches and met clergy who were fairly openly gay

00:29:58.300 - 00:30:15.660

amongst people they felt were sympathetic. And so it seemed as if the church was on the move at least, even though there were still issues. I think one thing that I was determined about,

00:30:15.660 - 00:30:27.900

and perhaps this was a bit naive on my part, was to make this an issue that could be discussed in educational circles. And since I was teaching religious education

00:30:27.900 - 00:30:43.600

it seemed to me that that was a possible line of debate, inquiry and so on, when it came to the freer expression of opinions amongst pupils at school.

00:30:43.600 - 00:30:59.280

And things were changing. There was something at the time called Gay Liberation Front, which was, I thought, a bit scary because these people seemed to be rather ostentatious

00:30:59.280 - 00:31:11.140

and it wasn't my style. They weren't particularly religious and they seemed to be more interested in... It wasn't a question of whether you had sex.

00:31:11.140 - 00:31:26.760

The issue was how often, how much you could get involved in that side of life. But it didn't appeal to me. I thought I was a bit more mature than that.

00:31:27.220 - 00:31:44.520

I think I was just a bit scared really. But I did invite some of them to come along to school and talk to some of the pupils who used to have a sort of free debate once a week.

00:31:45.160 - 00:31:59.120

And one of the tasks I inherited from a predecessor was to arrange for speakers to come and talk on topics of general interest, politics and so on, and major issues.

00:31:59.920 - 00:32:10.080

And that was one of them. It was also a bit of an eye-opener to me to realise that although I mixed with people who were free and easy about things,

00:32:10.820 - 00:32:30.020

there were a lot of people around who were very tight-lipped and not so tight-arsed about it. And when several people came along to speak from GLF, two of them were seen by a senior member of staff

00:32:31.100 - 00:32:49.560

walking off the school premises, holding hands. And this was reported to the headteacher and he banned them from coming ever again, which made him look rather foolish

00:32:49.560 - 00:33:07.700

because the pupils who hadn't heard the speakers were furious and contacted the local paper, the Hornsey Journal, and it became a sort of public issue. So I'm sure that the head felt that he was doing the right thing.

00:33:09.100 - 00:33:31.800

But it then became an issue in the public view. And it was around the same time that Haringey was getting in the neck from Maggie, actually, and they'd been accused by the Sun of promoting homosexuality.

00:33:33.300 - 00:33:50.100

They weren't doing anything of the sort. The book whose title always escaped me was a children's book about a gay couple who adopted a child. It was available through the teacher centre,

00:33:51.100 - 00:34:23.700

but they implied that it was being forced down the throats of pupils in Haringey. Haringey didn't have a particular campaign about it, but it was one of the equality issues that they did recognise at least. So that was far from frightening me off.

00:34:24.220 - 00:34:51.420

I'd always been a bit cautious about the issue in school, but perhaps I was a bit bolder than I would have been in Lancashire. This was London. It was recognised as part of human nature.

00:34:52.380 - 00:35:10.760

So it didn't deter me at all, although we didn't ever have a public issue. We didn't have a debate about it in school after that. So tell me, then, did that run...

00:35:11.300 - 00:35:21.120

Was this at the same time as... You mentioned LGCM and getting involved with LGCM and doing this in schools. Was this all a similar time? It was.

00:35:22.880 - 00:35:33.760

I wasn't very churchy at the time. I was a bit fed up with the church and didn't feel very... Not just on this issue. I wasn't sure what I really thought about God and the church.

00:35:33.760 - 00:35:55.160

I think I was much more willing to consider other ways of being. But I'd always maintained an interest in church, and I suppose one of the things that kept me going was church music. People always assumed that my main interest in church was through music.

00:35:55.160 - 00:36:15.160

It wasn't, but it did help. Because worship had always appealed to me, I'd always enjoyed being in church, as it were. And in the times when I'd gotten rather fed up

00:36:15.160 - 00:36:33.000

with the church's official attitude on sexuality, I could always remind myself that quite a lot of church musicians were, in fact, gay. And that, I suppose, helped me over quite a lot of difficult situations.

00:36:33.380 - 00:36:48.440

I think the human contact with individuals whom I got to know helped a lot. Some of them were clergy. And that's how you sort of stayed...

00:36:48.440 - 00:36:56.180

Or you got back involved with church. Yes. And, of course, LGCM too. That came along.

00:36:56.940 - 00:37:20.840

And I became... I wouldn't say I became a keen soldier for the cause, but at least I felt that having an opinion about it was a worthwhile thing to do.

00:37:21.140 - 00:37:42.000

And it was worth being prepared to take risks for the sake of what I consider to be truth. So could you tell me a bit about 3F over the last few years and the group and what you've all been doing

00:37:43.000 - 00:37:58.700

Well, I first went along to the meetings that were held at the Grosvenor Chapel out of curiosity. I didn't always find gay Christians particularly appealing

00:38:01.920 - 00:38:15.620

for various reasons. Some because I thought they had a rather toughy nose and a sort of academic approach to the whole thing. I felt a bit out of my depth

00:38:15.620 - 00:38:29.300

because I didn't have any formal theological training, although I'd been interested in the Bible. I'd done a course at the university and so on and so forth. And at the same time,

00:38:30.160 - 00:38:40.740

they didn't seem as attractive as some of the people who claimed not to be religious, not Christian. But at the same time,

00:38:41.640 - 00:39:05.820

I wasn't very keen on mixing in the sort of gay venues that some people thought were the major aspect of being gay. When my partner left me, which was quite soon after I'd arrived in London,

00:39:08.580 - 00:39:23.860

he mixed with a number of people, some of whom I got to know. But he caught the virus and so did a number of other people that I knew.

00:39:25.200 - 00:39:42.500

In fact, four ex-partners died of AIDS-related conditions, including Jack, and other people that I knew. And so I think that was a major setback for me.

00:39:43.340 - 00:40:02.820

It was the fear of possibly catching the virus that made me think that perhaps the gay life wasn't all it was cracked up to be and perhaps the best bet was to play safe.

00:40:03.500 - 00:40:15.020

I was very nervous about my own... the possibility of my own attraction, of people being attracted to me. I didn't feel I was particularly attractive.

00:40:15.460 - 00:40:35.380

I wasn't a flamboyant out gay in that sense at all, ever. And so I was fairly careful about it. But at the same time, I was very determined to continue my association

00:40:35.380 - 00:40:48.900

with particularly LGCM, and therefore 3F was the natural way in which I maintained my interest. And I gradually got to know people better and better

00:40:48.900 - 00:40:56.400

at Grosvenor Chapel, and when they finally decided to move from there, it was a rather grim setting, actually. It was sort of a basement.

00:40:56.600 - 00:41:15.380

It was cold and miserable, I thought. And I'd made contact with St Botolph's Old Gate by then, and in fact I was appointed the organist, mainly through the encouragement of Richard Kirker.

00:41:17.320 - 00:41:29.480

I said, oh, they want a proper organist, they don't want me. But I went along and I interviewed with... with the staff there.

00:41:31.020 - 00:41:42.240

And they said, well, perhaps we ought to hear you play. Would you like to play us a hymn? And I did do, and they said, oh, you'll do. And so I was appointed.

00:41:43.180 - 00:42:00.440

So I already knew of St Botolph's reputation through Malcolm Johnson, and I learned very quickly that Brian Lee was the rector there

00:42:00.440 - 00:42:22.280

and he was a sympathetic person. Therefore, I suppose my interest in the church, my commitment was reinforced by that experience. And generally the liberal Catholic background,

00:42:22.680 - 00:42:36.300

which I felt sympathetic towards, sort of came to the fore there. People like Ken Leach, Kenneth Leach, who was a great theologian, a left-wing theologian,

00:42:37.620 - 00:42:51.200

and very tolerant and understanding, appealed to me on quite other grounds, not just because of his attitude towards sexuality. He was not gay himself,

00:42:52.420 - 00:43:11.060

but he took a very liberal view about it. And therefore his political views appealed to me as well. And I suppose, although I was always a bit nervous of revolutionaries, at the same time I felt that

00:43:12.800 - 00:43:32.060

I could never see myself voting Conservative, and therefore I felt the incline towards radical politics. Although I didn't become a member of the Labour Party at the time until some time later.

00:43:33.520 - 00:43:42.880

That lasted for some time, but new Labour didn't appeal to me in the Iraq war finishing. Thank you.

00:43:43.260 - 00:43:57.600

Is there anything else in those periods of your life that you think I should have asked you about or that you'd like to share? I think what I've reflected upon is

00:43:58.900 - 00:44:13.700

being in contact with other people who are like-minded enabled me to think in greater depth about my own background, my roots, not just about the sort of public aspects of it,

00:44:13.740 - 00:44:27.980

which were to do with the law and so on and so forth, but the general attitude in society. And I think I've said before that sexuality was not something that was publicly discussed,

00:44:28.080 - 00:44:42.400

it wasn't mentioned. And in some ways it was easier to be gay in those days because people weren't suspicious. Subsequently, I felt the need for a more overt approach,

00:44:42.520 - 00:44:56.440

a more radical view. And this of course has now come to the fore, the law has been changed, there are new issues to do with adoption and things like that.

00:44:56.560 - 00:45:08.260

In fact, some friends at church who were a gay couple adopted children. So it's a very different story now, it's a very different world we're living in.

00:45:10.200 - 00:45:30.300

And in some ways it's a very much happier world. At the same time, I still think there's a long way to go and I'm still very frustrated by the church's attitude, the over-cautious attitude on the part of some people.

00:45:31.580 - 00:45:52.500

And when the recent Archbishop's Conference, whatever they called it on this issue, was held, I was disappointed with the outcome. I felt that people should have been more prepared

00:45:53.100 - 00:46:10.980

to condemn the un-Christian attitudes that were expressed by some of the bishops, particularly the Archbishop of Uganda and others. And the rather careful approach to the whole issue,

00:46:11.180 - 00:46:23.120

which seemed more concerned with maintaining a sort of Anglican appearance of unity rather than speaking the truth, that's my non-conformist background coming to the fore again.

00:46:24.300 - 00:46:37.960

Well that segues really nicely into how perhaps it might be best to finish this time together in thinking perhaps about your hopes for the future regarding LGBT acceptance,

00:46:38.800 - 00:46:48.340

particularly in the church but also in society. What are you hopeful for having seen so much change over the last 40 years that LGC has been around, but longer as well?

00:46:48.440 - 00:47:05.860

What are your hopes for the future? Well, the issue of equality is important in a theoretical way. I've never really got too hot under the collar about the possibility of gay marriage as such

00:47:06.580 - 00:47:19.300

because I was never quite sure about marriage as an institution. It didn't seem to me there was anything particularly Christian about it. And to make it a major sort of plank of Christian belief, as some fundamentalists do,

00:47:19.720 - 00:47:33.740

didn't seem to me a mistake. And they needed to read their Bibles, I thought. But my hopes are that people who consider themselves to be evangelical Christians

00:47:34.340 - 00:47:50.480

will come to rely more on the words of Jesus and less on the legalistic aspects of the biblical tradition, especially in view of the way in which the New Testament has quite a lot to say on this subject.

00:47:52.640 - 00:48:03.560

So I wish people would read their Bibles more, particularly the people who knock on my door and tell me that the Bible is the Word of God. And I say, well, how do you know it's the Word of God?

00:48:03.640 - 00:48:16.920

They say, because it says so. And I find this rather naive and frustrating. My background is liberal Protestantism. And I'm very grateful for that.

00:48:18.960 - 00:48:30.020

And I still love the Anglican tradition. I made friends with Roman Catholics. And now I'm getting even more daring and making friends with Muslims.

00:48:30.020 - 00:48:53.260

And I have known Jewish friends for a long time anyway. And coming to realize that while I don't reject the claims that Christianity is, you might say, the best bet, I realize that for other people,

00:48:53.860 - 00:49:04.280

they've been brought up in other traditions which they value. And I would never want to condemn them on the grounds of some sort of biblical quote that women seem to reject.

00:49:06.180 - 00:49:24.560

So I don't know what that means for my hopes for the Church, because I realize that once you reject any claims to uniqueness on the part of any particular tradition, you are not appealing to people who are looking for certainty.

00:49:24.560 - 00:49:45.020

And I don't know what that means in the long term. So I would still say I'm a believing Christian. I believe in God. But I'm not very keen to try and persuade other people

00:49:45.020 - 00:49:57.200

that they're wrong or right or whatever the case may be. When people say, well, are you a Christian? I'm a bit wary of saying yes, because I'm well aware now that that can mean

00:49:57.200 - 00:50:09.280

a variety of different things. Not all the people who claim to be Christian seem to be very Christian. Well, thank you very much for your time.

00:50:09.980 - 00:50:28.720

Is there anything else that you'd like to share? Well, I'd like to say thank you to you. I find it encouraging that there is still a strong Christian presence in the gay movement,

00:50:31.480 - 00:50:42.580

even though things have changed quite a lot. The role of, for instance, 3F, which you mentioned, seems maybe to be changing. Most of the people who come to the meetings

00:50:42.580 - 00:51:03.120

are well on in years, as indeed I am, as I realize now. But I still value the input that is made into Christian thinking by people who have gone through this whole process

00:51:03.120 - 00:51:18.640

that we've been talking about today. Yes, I hope that there will still continue to be religious movements in the church which identify themselves as gay and Christian.

00:51:21.160 - 00:51:25.980

Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time, John. Thank you. It's been really great to hear your story.