00:00:01.860 - 00:00:15.600

That one I'm much more confident with. Yes, that one's going too. Lovely. So, good afternoon.

00:00:15.740 - 00:00:35.640

This afternoon I'm with Reverend Janice Price, who's kindly agreed to be interviewed by me, Mandy Barry. And we're in a wonderful church in Serberton. Janice, I'd like to start with a little bit about your early life. Absolutely fine.

00:00:35.960 - 00:01:02.440

Can you tell me when and where were you born? I was born in Exeter in June 1958. And it was quite accidental that we were in Exeter. My mum was a single parent, so she had gone away to her home to have me.

00:01:06.580 - 00:01:23.340

But later we went back to Worcester, which was then my home, effectively, until I moved away in, let's think, when I was 19 and went to university. So your early life was spent in Leicester? Worcester, yes.

00:01:24.580 - 00:01:48.620

And could you tell me a little bit about your mother? Where did she go to school? She went to school in Worcester. She was somebody who had limited access to education because of both social class and finance.

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And I think from that came her determination that I wasn't going to suffer the same sort of limitations. And of course, between when she was in the 40s and in the 60s and 70s when I was growing up, there had been a social revolution. So life for her was a struggle in 1958, bringing a baby home.

00:02:23.380 - 00:02:37.580

On her own? On her own, yeah. My family were... Some of the women were very supportive, the men were less so.

00:02:37.580 - 00:02:53.240

But we came home and she bought us a house and that sort of thing. So she was a brave woman. It sounds like she was incredibly strong. Yes.

00:02:53.320 - 00:03:16.020

How did she manage to get the money to bring you up and to have a home? Well, she had an agreement with my father. And so I think some of that went into the home. Also, my grandmother looked after me for a lot of the time so mum could go to work.

00:03:17.920 - 00:03:37.280

So it was hard. What work did she do? She was a secretary and she worked for various companies. And ended up working as a civil servant in London.

00:03:37.420 - 00:03:56.340

She came down to London. But I think she found in the church somewhere that was accepting. Because I think once a month there was a service for children. And she used to go to that.

00:03:56.340 - 00:04:15.700

And there was a very, very impressive man who was the curate. And he obviously picked up very perceptively. Perhaps she may well have spoken to him, I don't know. But he gave us a lot of support and encouraged us to come along to church.

00:04:15.880 - 00:04:34.800

And would I like to go to Sunday school and the children's party and that sort of thing. And so we became more and more involved. And she was a very sort of prominent member. And so I think for both of us church became a safe space.

00:04:35.320 - 00:04:40.680

Right. Was she a regular church goer before you? Not really. Interesting.

00:04:40.820 - 00:04:53.220

No, none of our family were. And I mean they would go from time to time, weddings and funerals and that sort of thing. But no, not at all. They weren't active.

00:04:54.080 - 00:05:01.600

Interesting. Yeah, it was. It was. And it was all to do with that connection made with the curate.

00:05:02.160 - 00:05:10.220

And you just think, yeah, got it. Oh, yes. So good that he was there. Yes, he was.

00:05:10.340 - 00:05:18.680

Yeah, yeah. Doing his job, you know. And what about other female relatives? Were they around?

00:05:19.280 - 00:05:48.080

They were. They were, yes. And when we first came back to Worcester, my mother lived with her sister who sort of opened her home to us before we got our own home. And then she and her husband, later on when there was a family crisis with two other twins, they had them in their home too.

00:05:48.080 - 00:05:59.560

So it was very, very much, very, very supportive by her sister. So it sounds like you were surrounded by a lot of strong women. Absolutely. That's exactly it.

00:05:59.880 - 00:06:09.420

Exactly. And my grandmother too. I mean, I was frightened to death of my grandfather. But my grandmother was very, very different.

00:06:11.400 - 00:06:34.640

And, yes, I mean, a lot of strong women and, you know, a lot of supportive women. And the constraints on them were enormous, you know. But, yeah, and I always say that there were three matriarchs in my life. So it was my mother, her sister, and my godmother.

00:06:35.160 - 00:06:52.260

And between the three of them, you know, I was, at my 50th birthday, I gave them each a present because, as you do know, there have been three people who have been absolutely constant throughout my life. And here they are. How lovely, they were all there. They were.

00:06:52.520 - 00:06:57.640

They were. They're all dead now. But, yeah, they were there then. Yes.

00:06:57.820 - 00:07:06.760

What about your father? Did he, apart from financial support, did he play much part in your early life? None whatsoever. None whatsoever.

00:07:07.740 - 00:07:34.900

So he wasn't around at all. He did, my birth certificate says that father unknown, but my mother, with legal support, got him to sign a further document that says, yes, he was my father, to acknowledge paternity. Did he live in Worcester? No.

00:07:34.900 - 00:07:46.240

No. By this time, he'd moved away. Right. And so, had anyone in that generation of your family been to university?

00:07:46.400 - 00:08:18.160

You said that your mum had not had a strong education, but was there anyone else? There was one person, and he was my grandfather's younger, one of his younger brothers, because they were a lot, they were a family of 11. And he was Uncle Freddy. And Fred had won a scholarship to Worcester Grammar School, and he then won a scholarship to Emmanuel College, Cambridge, to do, and he did modern languages, so French and German.

00:08:19.720 - 00:08:32.940

And he very much sort of held up as the icon of the family, was Freddy. Yes, yes, yes. Did you have much to do with him? I had a lot to do with him, yes, a lot to do with him.

00:08:34.100 - 00:09:03.480

And, you know, my mother would ask him advice on my education and that sort of thing. And funnily enough, I mean, when it was coming up to the point, mum asked him whether I should try for Oxbridge, and he said, you know, I wouldn't go there again if I had a choice. And if I had the choice of all the universities that we do now, he said I wouldn't do it, because of classism. Really?

00:09:03.640 - 00:09:11.580

Yes, yes, yes. So you'd have been having these conversations in the 70s? That's right, that's right. Yes, he thought that then.

00:09:11.820 - 00:10:02.580

And he said, you know, when he was there in the 30s, then it was, you know, just riddled with classism, and his best friends were people who were also sort of on the edge of that. There was one particular Jewish man that he was great friends with, who of course was also on the edge, but for different reasons, didn't fit the mold yet. So I didn't, you know, I didn't actually, I think my mother was being a bit ambitious, I don't think I was clever enough, but, you know, that doesn't matter. But she, yeah, so there was, he was the only other person before me who'd been to university, and since then there have been two others.

00:10:03.040 - 00:10:08.200

Right. So, my cousins. Two others, plus you? Yes.

00:10:08.300 - 00:10:17.800

Yeah, yeah. So, but they were in university in the early 2000s, so, you know, a long time since. Yeah. Yeah.

00:10:22.160 - 00:10:40.880

So can you tell me, I'm going right back now, did you, you went to school in Worcester? Yes, yes. And what was that, what sort of school was it? I went to a local primary school, and I wasn't very bright then at all.

00:10:42.480 - 00:11:44.320

I really came into my own when I went, I failed the 11 plus, when I went to secondary school. And I went to a Church of England secondary school, and it was, you know, it was really, really a very significant place, and it was when I could get, when I could start to grasp ideas. That's when I sort of came to the fore, educationally, before then, that sort of maths and everything, I wasn't very bright, you know, but it was ideas that captured my mind, and where I just sort of flew, really. So things like English, history, geography, all of that sort of stuff, which you don't meet in primary school, and then I got a scholarship to a direct grant public school in Worcester, King's Worcester.

00:11:45.380 - 00:12:23.360

And then did an awful lot more, you know, of that, and I didn't discover theology until much later, but I certainly discovered philosophy, you know, when I was in secondary school and then at King's. That's fantastic to hear that, because, you know, it doesn't always happen now, does it? We're talking about the late 60s then, early 70s. Yes, that's right, that's right, that's right. And so, going forward to your university career, you said you discovered theology later, so what did you do?

00:12:23.360 - 00:12:27.820

I did English and Drama. And where did you go? Huddersfield. Huddersfield.

00:12:27.880 - 00:13:12.740

Yes, yes, yes. And what do you remember about those years? Actually, it was rekindling, I mean the academic stuff was great, and we regularly sort of two plays a term we had to put on and that sort of thing, so you know it was a huge amount of fun. But at that point, I got into, just because of the friends that I made, I got into Evangelical Christianity, and actually quite a sort of conservative part of that.

00:13:12.740 - 00:13:44.840

And, I mean, reflecting back on that now, I was looking for security. I made a lot of friends who were sort of believing in a very, very different way to me, and so I went along with that. Later, 10 years later, that comes all apart, but we can come to that. So this was when you were at university?

00:13:45.600 - 00:14:03.720

And I think you said to me that you didn't come from a particularly church-going family. No. But this really important church service and the support that your mother got through the priesthood was so helpful. Yes, that's right.

00:14:03.920 - 00:14:11.180

And no one else in the family had any sort of particularly strong, constant links to the church? No. No? No.

00:14:11.180 - 00:14:26.780

So I think it started from there. It started from there. And, you know, education. My mother valued education, but I'm not sure that anybody else really did. Yeah.

00:14:26.780 - 00:14:55.420

And, yeah, I mean, once I got into education and that sort of thing, there were certain people in the family who thought this must be put down. Because you were a woman? Or because it just didn't fit with what your family expected you were going to be doing? Both. Both?

00:14:55.880 - 00:15:09.440

I think, yes. Yeah. Yes, yes. So one of my uncles, who was my mother's brother, he was so misogynist, homophobic, everything.

00:15:09.660 - 00:15:22.020

I mean, he just said to me one day, he said, I hate educated women. And I said, oh, thank you. What do you do with that? Not my problem, mate.

00:15:23.100 - 00:15:27.660

Precisely. Your problem, not mine. Absolutely. Yes, yes.

00:15:27.800 - 00:15:46.340

So that wasn't, I think that was an undercurrent. And also in our family mantra was, you know, you must never get above yourself. So to get to go to King's, oh dear, she's getting above herself, that sort of thing. Yes, yes.

00:15:47.140 - 00:16:04.100

I definitely recognise that kind of pressure on you to stay in the box. Very much so, very much so. Can I just pick up on something you said a moment ago about the Evangelical Christian group that you met at university? Yes.

00:16:04.120 - 00:16:18.880

Which was your particular approach at that time. Yes. You said maybe it was about security. Could you say a little bit more about that? Yes. I mean, I'd gone to university, away from home for the first time, met some nice people.

00:16:20.300 - 00:16:48.480

And what I didn't realise is what their belief system carried. And so I think that was a lot to do with security. I was also sort of battling with the knowledge that I was gay. And so, you know, to go into a conservative place was almost safer than being open to relationships and that sort of thing.

00:16:49.200 - 00:17:09.520

And so I think it was, yeah, I mean it was, although actually when I got involved I didn't know that their anti-gay stance was part of backage. Okay, so you didn't know that. No, no. I don't want to paraphrase you, but you were saying that you were trying, almost trying to deny your sexuality.

00:17:10.020 - 00:17:27.720

Yes, that's absolutely right, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was too difficult. I'd had, in my sixth form, I'd sort of had a couple of forays, you know, into seeing what it was like. And I think I just sort of didn't like it very much.

00:17:28.760 - 00:17:46.660

That wasn't because of the people I was with, it was because of my own internal homophobia. My family had always been very, very homophobic. It does have a piece of not breaking the mould, doesn't it? It does, exactly, exactly, incredibly.

00:17:47.040 - 00:18:04.760

Oh my goodness, I mean, can you imagine, you know, for somebody in our family to be like that? As well as everything else. Yes, yes, that's right, that's right, that's right, so yeah. Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense.

00:18:07.380 - 00:18:32.160

So you were at university and met this group, and then were you involved with the church? Was that a major part of your university life? It was, yes, it was, it was. And in the third year, because there were, there's a group called University Colleges Christian Fellowship,

00:18:32.580 - 00:19:02.320

and they definitely are against women's leadership, but in my third year in university, I was elected president of the CU and Christian Union, and yeah, I mean, that was very, very much against what they would advocate, but, you know, I was voted in, so I did it.

00:19:02.320 - 00:19:35.580

So I think that was my first sort of experience of leadership as a woman, and, you know, this group is against you, that group is against you, that group you think are for you, but actually they're not, you know, and I made many, many, many mistakes, you know, I hadn't learned how to get the best out of people,

00:19:35.940 - 00:20:09.980

and that sort of thing, and so I was pretty mixed up myself, personally, you know, but I did that, and it was an incredible sort of year to live through, and some many, you know, highs and lows, but yeah, I mean, sort of, I don't know why, how it happened, really, but it was an election, so it happened, you know.

00:20:11.980 - 00:20:22.140

Well, obviously, those people voting for you. Yeah, absolutely, yeah, they must have done, they must have done. They saw something in you that you didn't see in yourself. Yes, I think that's probably true, yeah.

00:20:22.140 - 00:20:38.440

Can I just take us back a little bit to your family for a moment? I've asked you about their views on religion, the people that you were, you know, your close family, were any of them interested in politics at all? Yes, they were.

00:20:39.060 - 00:21:05.700

And can I ask you about that? Yeah, indeed, indeed, very, very strongly. My grandfather was a trade union official at his factory, and they were very, very strongly Labour, and so, you know, political awareness I grew up with very, very strongly.

00:21:06.140 - 00:21:12.720

Right. Yes. I'm just going to look at this to make sure it's still playing. I'm sure it is, but it's just my…

00:21:12.720 - 00:21:24.800

Yes, I'd be exactly the same. No, we're all right, we're all right. Yes. So, a grandfather, a trade union official, all of the family Labour voters?

00:21:25.180 - 00:21:30.220

Most of them, most of them, yes. And the women voted as well as the men? Yes, they did. Yeah.

00:21:30.340 - 00:21:44.520

They did, they did, yeah. And they weren't stopped by the men from voting or anything like that. And what about newspapers at home? I grew up with the Express.

00:21:45.540 - 00:22:02.360

Right. And, yes, exactly, exactly. And so, yes, we had the Express. There was no, you know, sort of, what was it, the communist one or something like that?

00:22:02.380 - 00:22:14.900

The Daily Worker. Yeah, the Daily Worker. No, nothing like that, nothing like that. But mostly it was, I learned sort of political comment from television

00:22:14.900 - 00:22:33.640

and hearing my grandfather and my grandmother's reaction to television and what might be said. Right, yeah. So you were aware of their political views, it was something that was debated in the House? Yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:22:34.460 - 00:22:59.680

Can we, you said about this evangelical group that you got involved in and then you said later that changed. Yes. So I think what I'm really wanting to know is if you can tell me more about where your spiritual beliefs started and how they've moved on, so however you best want to tell me about that.

00:22:59.680 - 00:23:20.720

Yes, I mean, I think, I mean, I'm somebody who's always had a sense of the other. As a child? As a child, yes, yes, yes. And always had a sense of God.

00:23:22.340 - 00:23:55.620

And I loved church because of the rituals and the things that it sort of spoke to in terms of the other, something bigger, something outer. And something that, you know, wasn't me but was that which was beyond. And my grandfather died when I think he was 61 and his body was in the front room.

00:23:56.220 - 00:24:11.360

And I remember going in there and thinking, he's not there, he's in heaven, you know. But really, so at age seven. That was fantastic. Yes, yes, he died when I was seven.

00:24:12.260 - 00:24:28.280

So, you know, that was, that was quite significant. You had those feelings that there was something beyond what we can know. Yes, yes, definitely, exactly. Something beyond that we can know, you know, in part.

00:24:31.400 - 00:24:55.940

And so, and then it was sort of a sense of belonging in church. You know, this was okay because I did find relationships with peers somewhat difficult. I didn't fit in, I didn't feel as though I did. And this is a sort of common theme.

00:24:55.960 - 00:25:08.520

As a child and as a teenager, yes. Yes, yes, yes. And, you know, in church I didn't sort of have to, you didn't have that backing. So in that sense it was very, very, very attractive.

00:25:14.200 - 00:25:33.140

And, so yes, and this sense of other, something bigger. I think that was very, very powerful, very powerful. Were you able to share those thoughts with anybody in your life in those early years? Yes, I think I did.

00:25:33.140 - 00:25:56.920

I talked to my mum about them quite a lot. And she was very receptive to those. So, you know, to those thoughts. So that was good, a very good part of our relationship.

00:25:59.180 - 00:26:30.300

But then it all sort of focused in when I was at college. And that was actually quite a breakthrough, you know. But the cost, what happened after a while was that the cost of belonging, I deny myself, was too great. Can I ask you to say a bit more about breakthrough?

00:26:31.080 - 00:26:43.140

That's a very powerful word. Yes, it is, it is. I think it was a consolidation of my beliefs. But also a breakthrough in my sense of self.

00:26:45.940 - 00:27:10.380

And, you know, some of those very negative feelings that I'd had about myself were actually lifted. You know, I remember through an experience of praying with somebody. And, you know, I was changed. I felt as though I could lift my head up and look at the world.

00:27:10.380 - 00:27:29.960

And so that was, you know, massively, that was the breakthrough in my sense of self. So you can actually feel quite a moment then. Yes, yes, yes. And I remember waking up the next day and thinking, oh, it feels as though all weight has gone.

00:27:30.820 - 00:28:06.340

And it feels as though my life feels different. So I had those very, very powerful experiences all through that group. So there was a lot of reason for me to continue to belong when I realised what their position was on homosexuality, on being gay. And at various points I sort of went for, sought to deal with being gay.

00:28:07.100 - 00:28:23.580

And, you know, and to what some people would say, you know, deal with the evil of it. But of course that didn't work. Because it was an essential part of myself. It wasn't what somebody else had put on me.

00:28:23.580 - 00:28:32.600

Precisely. You know, it was core. Yes. And, you know, God made core of my being.

00:28:32.800 - 00:28:52.620

Of course. And so, no, so that didn't work, funnily enough. But things like shame and guilt, I remember that, you know, those very, very powerfully went away. So my sense of self, you know, I was much, much more confident, not so shy.

00:28:53.660 - 00:29:01.900

Might that have been what gave you the strength to move on from this particular group? I think so. I think so. Some years later.

00:29:02.380 - 00:29:05.100

Right. Yes. Still at university? No.

00:29:05.600 - 00:29:14.700

No, this was later. So this was when I was 30. Yeah. And was this before you started your theological training?

00:29:15.040 - 00:29:32.720

Yes. Well, almost at the same time, because I started my theological training at, in 1985. And so that was definitely contributory to my breakdown. Okay, so let's fill in the gap in the middle, okay?

00:29:33.880 - 00:29:40.900

So through the university, you were involved with this evangelical Christian group. Yes, yes. And you were doing English and drama. Yes.

00:29:40.920 - 00:29:56.280

And then what did you do after that? And then I graduated, and I came to London, and I just worked. I got a job for a publishing firm, being a sort of office dog's body, really, you know, for the first job.

00:29:57.680 - 00:30:39.180

And then I went to a big church in central London called Holy Trinity Brompton. And that was great socially, but it perpetuated the negative view of sexuality. So I got to 30, and I'd left Holy Trinity at that time and was involved in a local church in Wandsworth. And I was also working at the House of Commons.

00:30:39.700 - 00:30:50.480

So I was a researcher for an MP. And I had, so it was a huge job. It was a very difficult job. And who was it?

00:30:51.080 - 00:31:11.240

What was his name? A chap called Bernard Brayne, yeah. And I worked with him on human rights issues, particularly to do with Eastern Europe. And it was at the time of, you know, Glasnost and Perestroika and that sort of thing.

00:31:11.700 - 00:31:40.560

And he was chair of a human rights organization. And so there were big things, big things going on. And I think that what happened is that my psyche sort of became overloaded with this tension between religion and sexuality.

00:31:43.980 - 00:31:50.040

And I... You haven't mentioned this to your family at this point? No. Or to your friends?

00:31:50.040 - 00:31:54.940

No, to my mother, no, no, no. Definitely not. Something you were completely holding in? Yes.

00:31:55.320 - 00:32:11.860

Yes, yes, yes. It was just too scary even to name it. You know, I couldn't. And so that went on for, and I think it was July 1988.

00:32:12.760 - 00:32:38.860

Parliament had gone into recess. And it was at that point that I just sort of, I think, just couldn't take any more. And, you know, my mind was, you know, I couldn't think properly. Concentration, all of the classic signs of depression.

00:32:39.240 - 00:32:53.320

Yes. That's what it was. And so I went to the doctor and was put on antidepressants. That was 1988.

00:32:55.180 - 00:33:25.780

Nineteen, that's right, I think, well it definitely was, it was two years that I started to realise that I couldn't do what I had been doing before. And so that was the beginning of a very, very new chapter and a big transition. I started to look at some of the things I believed and I think,

00:33:27.840 - 00:33:38.780

oh, that's ridiculous, particularly about women. That's ridiculous. Why would I think that, you know? And what sorts of things?

00:33:39.320 - 00:33:55.600

Well, about what women could do and what women couldn't do. Okay, yeah. So at Holy Trinity, for instance, at Holy Trinity Bolton, somebody said, well, if we had a Bible study social group

00:33:55.600 - 00:34:08.900

and they wanted me to be the leader and the leadership said, no, you can't be the leader because you're a woman, and it says this in the Bible. And I started to think, that's rubbish, you know, absolutely rubbish.

00:34:11.480 - 00:34:34.320

And so it was very much a sort of throwing off of things, but not entirely throwing off Christian faith because I then discovered a very different way to be a Christian. And I went to a conference of the Diocese of Southwark

00:34:34.320 - 00:34:56.260

and there somebody said that they were thinking of starting up a group for LGBT people who would want to go along. And they invited everybody to go along and I went along. And the guy who was running it had been in a small group that I'd been in

00:34:56.260 - 00:35:05.440

and I went up to him at one point and I said, you know, I'd really like to come along. He said, yeah, that's great. And it was sort of, ooh.

00:35:05.760 - 00:35:20.500

And then I went to this group and saw these people were just like me, you know. It was actually very, very ordinary. Yes, it was. It was. And so that was the first point at which I started to make community

00:35:21.360 - 00:35:44.100

and realise that you didn't have to believe all those things about women and about gay people in order to have some sort of Christian faith. And so I started going to a church that wasn't quite so sort of low church and it was focused more on Holy Communion,

00:35:44.560 - 00:36:04.520

which is basically about a broken body and the symbolism around it. And I reconstructed my faith around that, around the fact that Jesus had a body that was broken, he had a body that was, you know, emaciated,

00:36:04.640 - 00:36:18.780

but it was about a body. And it was about the physical because that's what we are. And so that became very, very important. Now, at that point, I had to leave churches.

00:36:20.160 - 00:36:32.780

You know, I had to leave this one church. Was this because of your new approach to your faith? Yes, yes, yes. But I sort of hung on there because I'd got friends and that sort of thing.

00:36:34.020 - 00:36:55.160

But then came the – that's right, I was elected onto the diocesan synod, which is the sort of governing body for the diocese. And I made a couple of speeches and somebody came up to me and said, why don't you stand for general synod?

00:36:56.020 - 00:37:15.320

This was early part of 1990. And I thought – I gave it a bit of thought and I thought, yeah, why not? Can I just ask you, had you had theological training during this period? Yes, yes, I had, yes.

00:37:15.320 - 00:37:32.580

So had that come through your church attendance? It had, yes, yes. And how did – how was that separate from your going to church as a member of the congregation? Did you – were there exams?

00:37:32.980 - 00:37:43.660

Yes, yes, yes. So I trained as a lay preacher. Right. And it was during that time – I mean, that was also part of the build-up

00:37:43.660 - 00:37:55.720

to my rejecting evangelical Christianity. So that training was before this? Yes, that was 1985 to 1988. Okay, sorry, I should have asked you about that.

00:37:55.720 - 00:38:08.300

No, no, no, it's fine, it's fine. And because I started to see the Bible in a different way. Right, and so you trained as a lay preacher? Yes, that's right, that's right.

00:38:08.660 - 00:38:22.860

And when did you do that? That was at Southwark Cathedral, so it was a course run by the diocese and a very, very good course. And it was there that I discovered theology.

00:38:24.380 - 00:38:29.520

And – But you've been a churchgoer for many years. Yes. So what do you mean by discovering theology?

00:38:29.520 - 00:38:42.700

By academic theology. Ah, okay. Yes, yes, yes. And the expansiveness of it and how you could think in very, very different ways

00:38:42.700 - 00:39:01.360

and how God could be perceived in many, many different ways. And that was a key breakthrough. You know, I'm thinking, I've been in a little cul-de-sac and now I want to come out onto the big, broad boulevard

00:39:01.360 - 00:39:20.960

in order to get everything that's going to feed me. But that cul-de-sac, I'm well left. And so, I mean, it took time, it took time. But – and you get to the point, and I got to the point where I thought,

00:39:21.040 - 00:39:45.280

no, this is not sustainable any longer. Was that because the course was too constraining? No, it was because it was so broad and I met so many new ways. And new people of seeing things, including sexuality.

00:39:46.120 - 00:40:13.920

And my tutor group leader was an elderly priest who lived with his partner in the vicarage, Owen. And I found him very, very challenging indeed because he would say, he would talk about Owen

00:40:13.920 - 00:40:33.940

and he would talk about sexuality in the church and that sort of thing. But actually he was a key person because here was somebody who, you know, was living this out. And I was both repelled and drawn at the very same moment.

00:40:35.940 - 00:40:56.740

And when I was very, very ill, he was the one who came along and talked to me and was, yeah, a very, very significant man. Because I thought, why can't these people live like this? And I could too.

00:40:59.520 - 00:41:04.100

Terrifying. Terrifying. But also fascinating. Yes, yeah.

00:41:04.560 - 00:41:11.480

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So... Mind-changing. Yeah, I mean, it was sort of, so it was a mind-blowing.

00:41:14.520 - 00:41:31.720

So, strangely enough, I did get elected onto General Synod. And... I feel we've made a, you were a lay preacher. And then how did you get elected onto General Synod?

00:41:31.860 - 00:41:48.140

What had you been involved in to make that happen? It was suggested, actually, by somebody who was a member of MOW. And he just came up to me and said, you know, I heard your speech. And have you thought, in fact, he wrote me a letter.

00:41:49.400 - 00:42:02.920

He said, I heard your speech. Had you thought about standing for General Synod? You know, very, very, he was a government barrister. He was a very, very prominent person, very highly thought of.

00:42:03.480 - 00:42:16.720

He was chair then of the House of Laity. And he sort of, I've got a sort of hair in my eye or something. Do you want to stop for a moment? There, that's better.

00:42:17.540 - 00:42:40.980

And I thought, golly, if Brandon McKenry is sort of saying, think about this, then I'd better. So I took it further. And I did stand. And I did get elected on the ticket that I was fully supportive of, fully supportive of the ordination of Wynne to the priesthood.

00:42:40.980 - 00:42:57.180

Because in 1990, that was the big issue that you had to declare yourself on. And Brian had said to me, you know, join MOW and be very clear. Don't prevaricate at all. Just be very clear.

00:42:57.260 - 00:43:20.060

And I thought, well, I am very, very clear. Because a lot of the getting to that point was all part of, you know, coming into a new place. And so I did. And I got involved in the MOW Synod Steering Group.

00:43:21.760 - 00:43:40.700

And I did. At that time, I did quite a lot of media stuff, particularly on the day of the vote. And so I did radio. Oh, I did Women's Hour.

00:43:42.860 - 00:44:10.200

I did the Today programme. And there were various others as well, international media things. And the vicar of the church that I was then in, who was very evangelical, he heard me on Radio 4 and was horrified. Because he thought I was against.

00:44:11.120 - 00:44:20.200

You kept it to yourself so much? Not deliberately. And, you know, he hadn't bothered to look. He hadn't bothered to ask me.

00:44:21.440 - 00:44:37.100

And I had, I mean, your election address is a public document. And it didn't occur to me to give him a copy. Why? You know, I'm standing as who I am.

00:44:39.000 - 00:44:46.840

And he was absolutely horrified. Did he contact you? Yes, he did. He said, I thought you were against.

00:44:47.620 - 00:45:10.760

And I said, well, what gave you that impression? And he said, oh, I heard you asking a question at a public meeting about how somebody who was in favour interpreted a particular scripture. And I said, so I was interested in how they interpreted it. That does not mean that I was against.

00:45:11.620 - 00:45:27.900

And he said, well, you can't preach in this church anymore. And I said, well, if that's the case, then. And, you know, he was absolutely livid. He attacked me from the pulpit because he was up there giving a sermon.

00:45:28.060 - 00:45:51.100

And he talked about those who were supposed to be evangelicals and voted for the ordination of women to the priesthood. And I went up to him afterwards and I said, how dare you? I said, you never tried to have a conversation with me properly beforehand. And yet you go and do that in the protected space of the pulpit.

00:45:51.860 - 00:46:11.340

I said, and it could have been meant for no one else because no one else in this church voted for it. I said, you were very careful to say voted. And he said, oh, well, oh, well, oh, well, blah, blah, blah. So this was about 1992.

00:46:12.080 - 00:46:23.440

And in 1993, I left. You left that church? Yes. Yes, I did. I did. And I went to a church where they were fully, fully in favor.

00:46:23.580 - 00:46:43.820

Indeed, there was a very, very prominent person called Reverend Joy Carroll, who I got to know very well. And she was on various commissions and that sort of thing. And I went to the church where she was cured. So, you know, there was no doubt about it whatsoever.

00:46:44.240 - 00:47:04.000

I'll come back to her in a moment. Can I ask you, your initiation into the movement for the ordination of women, you were saying that you were encouraged to apply to the General Synod. And an obvious corollary to that would be to be involved in.

00:47:04.740 - 00:47:15.160

So how did it, how did it manifest? I mean, were there regular meetings? Were there committees? How, how did you, what did you do?

00:47:15.480 - 00:47:41.320

As soon as you got onto General Synod, there was an MOW Synod Steering Group. And so I, I went along to those meetings and that sort of thing. And I'd just finished working at the House of Commons. And I'd learnt a lot about how you put votes together, how political parties do it.

00:47:42.460 - 00:47:59.660

And so I said to Caroline Davis, who was the then General Secretary, I said, look, I've got this experience. If it might be useful, then, you know. And she looked at me and, gulp.

00:48:00.800 - 00:48:14.980

And, yeah, exactly, exactly. When can we meet? So we met for lunch, I think it was the next week. And she said, you know, somebody with that sort of detail

00:48:14.980 - 00:48:44.080

and who knows how to work with that sort of detail is what we need. So we then set up, she then set up something called the Mini Steering Group. So this was in 19, probably January 1991. So, and this was the heart of the campaign, I think.

00:48:44.080 - 00:49:05.180

So there was Brian McKinley, who'd encouraged me to come on to this, to stand for Synod. There was Sally Barnes. There was Donald Barnes, who was a bloke in, you know, he was a priest who just about knew everybody in the hierarchy.

00:49:05.520 - 00:49:23.260

I didn't know anybody in the hierarchy. Then there was somebody called Christina Reese, who was a communications expert and various others. And we used to meet every month to six weeks.

00:49:24.820 - 00:49:52.800

And what, there was no organisation at all about who to approach, who to, who to, who needed to be gently lobbied, you know. So we looked at, we got, I can remember it now, it's a table bit like that, probably a bit bigger.

00:49:53.300 - 00:50:07.360

And we put out the lists of all the general Synod members. So I said, right, we start off by saying, who's totally prone? Because we don't need to lobby them, we need to nurture them. And there are all sorts of ways to do that.

00:50:08.260 - 00:50:31.260

And what we would do is sort of get people to just encourage, keep on board, counter the arguments that are being put out by spurious people, many spurious people. So we had those and we'd identified those. We also then identified those who were totally against and who, you know,

00:50:31.500 - 00:50:45.840

short of a miracle, were never going to vote for the ordination of the priesthood. In fact, were going to oppose. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. So again, you write them off.

00:50:46.080 - 00:51:00.780

Yeah. The key people we had to identify were the people in the middle. And so for those, we went through every person. Now, who knows such and such?

00:51:01.700 - 00:51:14.720

Oh, yes, I know them. Oh, but I know such and such. What's an approach that they would value? I mean, there was going to be no sort of bombarding people,

00:51:14.900 - 00:51:25.060

but, you know, a gentle encouragement. Because we had actually got time, because we knew that the vote was probably not going to happen until November of 92. But we needed to keep on top of it.

00:51:26.600 - 00:51:44.620

We also, and so we went through all of those. And on the day of the debate, there was one person that we were unsure how they were going to vote. And the key was not to get the majority, it was the two thirds. And so you've been doing the maths to see?

00:51:44.680 - 00:51:57.940

Yeah, all the way through. Really interesting. All the way through. And every time we met, we would have a big chunk of people reporting back what they knew about such and such.

00:51:58.120 - 00:52:15.100

Such and such is going a bit wobbly because blah, blah. You know, okay, so what do we do to strengthen them? And we were as focused and as detailed as that right the way through for about that year. Fascinating.

00:52:15.100 - 00:52:24.080

Fascinating. Because this is how the political parties put together votes. So you didn't try to do megaphone, you know. I mean, we had meetings.

00:52:24.400 - 00:52:31.720

Yeah, we had meetings. And we had. You were saying about the media. Yeah, yes, yes.

00:52:32.040 - 00:52:44.040

Yeah, we had meetings and that. But the purpose of the meetings was to assess where people were. And then there was lots of work outside those meetings. That's right.

00:52:44.360 - 00:53:13.040

That's right. That's right. Without giving names away if that's inappropriate, are there any particular sort of maneuvering that you remember that you feel, you know, worked very well to, you know, what kinds of arguments, I suppose, is what I'm saying, would help those wavering support you? I mean, the arguments, the wavering people was basically, look, what's the future of the church if we don't do this?

00:53:13.400 - 00:53:37.880

Right. The Church of England is irrelevant enough as it is, though we like it, you know. But what's the future? For quite a few people it's how those who are opposed are going to be looked after and how they're going to be cared for.

00:53:38.280 - 00:54:13.280

Because it was livelihoods that were at stake, you know. That's the bit of it I regret, voting for what they called an act of synod, which put into law the fact that there would always be those who oppose the ordination of women. Could you say a little bit more? Why do you regret? Because I think we, many people were very surprised, the bishops were surprised that it went through.

00:54:14.840 - 00:55:02.660

And so they, and straight after the vote, which was bitter, bitter, bitter, you had many, many people who were basically haranguing bishops about what the future of the Catholic part of the church was. And certainly there was a lot of feeling that they had to, you make a big decision and then you realise quite how big it was and you almost go back on it. And I think that's what synod did in order to preserve in law the place of the Catholic group.

00:55:03.160 - 00:55:53.360

Right. And I think that's what we did and I wished that I hadn't voted for the act of synod. Now I, and I've apologised to various women, particularly women who've become bishops and said, you know, your job would be an awful lot easier if those of us on synod at the time would not have voted for the act of synod. But it hasn't stopped there being a huge flourishing of women's ministry in the church despite all the things that hold it back.

00:55:53.760 - 00:56:32.680

That's what I was going to say, maybe you're being a bit hard on yourself because it was a huge step. Yeah, it was, it was, it was, yes. And perhaps for those of us who knew the figures, it was, it was still a bit of a surprise. You know, I mean, we knew that there were two votes in it. There was one person who I'd got to know very well and her marriage was at stake over whether she voted for or abstained.

00:56:34.080 - 00:57:41.460

And her husband was very much against and she had come to a place through some very, very careful, I think, pastoring really, of, she came from the Catholic tradition and she suddenly saw Mary, the mother of Jesus, as the first priest. And she changed her mind, but her husband hadn't. Yeah, so literally there were marriages and relationships at stake. And in the end what Valerie did is that she alone abstained, she abstained and she sat, because you had to sit in the body, because you go through the various doors for what you were to be counted, and she sat in on her own whilst everybody else went out through the doors sobbing. So, so, so, so terrible.

00:57:41.860 - 00:58:21.080

Because she knew, actually, her marriage has survived, but the stakes were really big, you know, and yeah, I mean an amazing person. But to sit there on your own, I mean talk about courage, you know, and yeah. This is a very broad question, but those men that were in that third group, totally opposed, you know, we haven't got time to try to turn them round. No.

00:58:22.700 - 00:58:36.840

Were their objections purely theological? What were their objections? You can dress up an awful lot of things in theology, and I think it was dressed up misogyny. You do? Yes.

00:58:37.740 - 00:58:57.440

Yes. Without, without any doubt. There were those who said they'd like to vote for it, but, I'm sure I believe them, if you really want to vote for something, then you will. Yeah.

00:59:00.060 - 01:00:07.000

There was a very strongly evangelical Protestant professor of English from York University, and he changed his mind in the last few days, because from his tradition, it was, you know, no, this mustn't happen from where he was coming. And we met in the corridor at one point, and he said, you know Janice, he said, I'm going to have to vote for this, and I, oh Arthur, and I said, why? And he said, because even though it goes against what I've thought for so long, I honestly believe that the Holy Spirit is behind it. And he said, that's purely the ground on which I'm going to vote for it.

01:00:08.000 - 01:00:26.540

And he was a man of great integrity. There were an awful lot for whom it was pure misogyny. So he said, although I've not believed in it, the Holy Spirit has told me that this is how it should be. Yeah.

01:00:27.460 - 01:00:36.640

And he was not able to articulate a shift in, you know, in reasoning. Not really. Not really. No.

01:00:37.060 - 01:00:53.060

I mean, I would imagine that out of the febrile atmosphere of the General Synod meetings, that he would do so. But for him at that point, it was a gut. It was what was happening. Much deeper.

01:00:53.080 - 01:01:13.160

Yes, much, much deeper. And, you know, he said, it goes against. And, you know, yeah. But he said, I just sense.

01:01:17.340 - 01:01:43.560

Thinking back, there were people who, when Valerie was sat in the chamber on her own, she put her head down. And there were women and men around her who were saying, come this way, come this way. And it was into the no lobby. And I don't know, but she just said no.

01:01:46.160 - 01:02:17.400

Because she had of course been declared to be completely persona non grata because she'd been very involved in women against the ordination of women. And, you know, had been subject to verbal rebukes and that sort of thing. From men and women. Yes, yes, yes.

01:02:20.400 - 01:02:37.940

And she just stuck there. But, yeah, I mean, there were people, come this way. And... How did you feel about the women who were involved in the against side of the movement?

01:02:38.700 - 01:03:03.340

This became very personal because at the time of the vote, my mum had a very good friend of hers who was staying who was dead against it. We hadn't realised. And she said, oh, can't you just leave the men their altars? Their altars.

01:03:03.500 - 01:03:16.560

Their altars, yes. And I said, no. And she didn't speak to me. That was 1992.

01:03:17.580 - 01:03:32.560

And she didn't speak to me until 2010 when my mother was dying. That's how strongly she ended up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was my mum in the middle of it, you know.

01:03:33.580 - 01:03:57.420

There were also people who I had been quite friendly with as civil members who were against. Women included. And, again, all of that was lost. There was no friendship after the vote.

01:03:59.280 - 01:04:28.340

Were they able to articulate? Were there a variety of reasons why they were against? The big one, the big theological one that was articulated was that unless the Church of Rome, we didn't have, the Church of England didn't have the right on its own to make this decision. This could only be made as part of the greater church, so Rome and the Orthodox.

01:04:29.880 - 01:04:47.760

And I remember it was, oh, there was a chap called George Austin. And he came out with this argument. And this was on Breakfast TV. And he came out with this argument.

01:04:48.560 - 01:05:09.040

And I said, so the Church of England can't do anything then in its own governance of itself before Rome and the Orthodox do it? We're going to be waiting a long time. We've got to go ahead. And we had to share a taxi back to church because, that's right, that was the morning of the vote.

01:05:09.460 - 01:05:22.700

It was the most uncomfortable taxi ride that I think I've ever been in. And it was from White City, so television centre, to church house. Yes, exactly. Exactly.

01:05:23.380 - 01:05:35.300

I think we've passed pleasantries, but really not much more than that. There's no point. But so that's what they think. So unless Rome does this, then we can't do that.

01:05:35.400 - 01:05:57.580

Well, I just didn't believe it. So he would say, you know, our ecumenical relationships with Rome are going to be so severely damaged that we can't do this. And I said, but what about ecumenical relationships with Methodists, you know, with the reformed tradition, with Baptists and others? Why is this all about Rome?

01:05:58.280 - 01:06:25.200

You know, and that was because they weren't interested in any of the other denominations who were going ahead with this. And, you know, it was, and had done many years previously. The church will lose its credibility if it has women at the altar. I mean, that is just so unbelievably stupid and laughable.

01:06:26.300 - 01:06:46.380

That sounds like one of the misogynistic arguments. That's right, it is, it is. And, you know, I don't, and there was the famous comment by the then Bishop of London, you know, a woman at the altar and he might feel attraction to her. Well, again, pure.

01:06:46.380 - 01:07:10.540

That was probably misogyny. Precisely, pure, that's pure misogyny. And so, I mean, the ecumenical arguments, they're right, but I always felt that it was, that there was an awful lot of misogyny that was being dressed up. Very, very interesting.

01:07:10.560 - 01:07:27.200

Dressed up. So, if I can just, one or two questions that I've got here. Were you involved in the Women Ordained Abroad measure in 1986? No, I wasn't.

01:07:29.780 - 01:07:48.860

And then you've spoken about the day of that vote. Can you, you know, can you describe what happened when you heard the news? Where were you? Well, I was sat in the, sat in the General Synod, you know, in the chamber.

01:07:50.420 - 01:08:17.380

And we did some very quick maths and realised that the measure was carried. And we'd been told to greet the decision in silence. And I nearly clapped, but I didn't. How did you feel about that, that you were specifically told don't clout or, you know, show too much joy?

01:08:17.640 - 01:08:41.980

Yeah, constrained beyond words. You know, we, nothing was going to make it better for the people opposed. If we had lost, then again, nothing would have made it better. So, you know, it was supposed to be a mark of respect.

01:08:41.980 - 01:09:06.520

I forgot to put something in earlier. In July, at the July group of sessions in York, we had not got the two-thirds majority. And it was the best thing that could have happened. Because if we'd have got the two-thirds majority, we would have thought we'd got it in the bag.

01:09:07.240 - 01:09:22.380

Ah, so you continued to work hard. We continued to work hard. I don't think those of us who were sort of directing operations would have thought that. But there would have been many people who would have thought it's in the bag.

01:09:24.900 - 01:09:53.060

And so, you know, we went to the November vote very, very hopeful. And in the end, our figures were absolutely right. How's your political training? I mean, we didn't have whips or anything like that.

01:09:54.120 - 01:10:09.580

But, no, I mean, in that sense, it was done very, very differently. But in order to get that level of organisation. Because the Catholic group didn't. And they didn't know that we had either.

01:10:10.160 - 01:10:24.080

Because we just worked. I mean, I think it was the best group I have probably ever worked with. Because we were totally focused on one thing. And bringing that about.

01:10:24.980 - 01:10:47.880

And we were putting our all into it. And, you know, there was no sort of division about what we do. If we had a disagreement about tactics, we had a jolly robust discussion. And then respected each other to come back and to make a decision.

01:10:49.940 - 01:11:03.860

And people whose views we trusted. That sort of thing. And those sorts of discussions were about how we came to approach. And how we would manage media.

01:11:04.280 - 01:11:19.320

And that sort of thing as we came towards the vote. So you got it through. But then it was another 22 years before women became bishops. Or allowed to become bishops.

01:11:19.940 - 01:11:32.220

Were you involved in the movement? I was, yes, I was. But not in a prominent capacity. Because by then I had changed.

01:11:32.380 - 01:11:45.060

I had become a general synod civil servant. So I wasn't able to be involved in campaigning. Ah, okay. So I just used to meet people.

01:11:45.380 - 01:11:56.280

And we would have a chat and that sort of thing. But I wasn't at the centre of it. Like I was for Ordination of Women to the Priesthood. So how did you end up becoming a civil servant on the General Synod?

01:11:56.360 - 01:12:06.360

Was that up to 1992? Yes, this was in 1994. And I applied for a job in their mission in communications. Right.

01:12:06.520 - 01:12:25.860

Yeah, yeah. And then I have been involved in various roles at regional and national level for the CAB until 2021. So from 1994 to 2021. So it was quite a long time really.

01:12:27.400 - 01:12:45.600

Okay, certainly, yes. The Ordination of Women as bishops, I know that you were seeing it from a different position. Yeah. But was that fought on similar lines with this sort of lobbying synod members?

01:12:45.820 - 01:12:50.440

Or were you not privy to that? I wasn't privy to that. No, no. It might have been.

01:12:50.660 - 01:13:05.680

I don't know. And of course there were a couple of times when it didn't go through. Yes. And I remember sitting in the tea room with Sally Barnes and it didn't go through.

01:13:06.080 - 01:13:19.620

And, you know, it was gutting. So were you surprised that it took as long as it did? Yes. You were.

01:13:19.780 - 01:13:29.860

Yes. Yes. I thought it would take, I didn't think it would happen instantly, but I thought it was going to be around about 10 years. Right, yeah.

01:13:32.600 - 01:14:09.780

Because theologically there's no reason at all why somebody who's ordained a priest can't then go on very quickly, as happens, to be a bishop. And so there was this sort of block and you had a growing, and I think this was one of the big influences, you had a growing number of women in very, very senior roles at Archdeacon and that sort of thing. But they had nowhere to go. And, you know, I think people looked around and said, but why is it such and such a bishop?

01:14:11.120 - 01:14:34.860

And there was no answer to that. Because once they've been ordained priests, then, yeah. Yeah, you've moved that. Absolutely, and that's why, I mean I think there were people, every step had its own significance.

01:14:35.680 - 01:15:12.260

You know, without having women deacons in 1988, we would never have got, well, it wouldn't have been possible to have women priests. But those four years were very, very significant because people saw women doing what had been exclusively the job of men up until that point. And for a lot of people it was, well, they're doing it rather well. Absolutely, absolutely.

01:15:12.260 - 01:15:57.100

And actually we'd rather like our deacon to become vicar, but she can't for some reason because she's not a priest. And so, you know, all of those things, the changes in perception of women's ministry between 1988 and 1992 were a big mover in why women were priests on our side. Going back to your own experience, you told me that you did your training at Southwark and you were a lay preacher. Did you, you then came on, went on to be a deacon?

01:15:57.760 - 01:16:23.240

That was a lot, lot, lot later. I mean I, I was a lay, I mean I was only ordained in 2021. Ah, I didn't know that. Yes, yes, yes. And the, that, and the reason for that is why I didn't go forward earlier is because of the church's position on sexuality, not on women.

01:16:24.280 - 01:17:21.160

Ah, right. I had been in the process in 2003, but had come out of it because at that point there was a gay man in a partnership who was made a bishop, Geoffrey John, and he basically had to stand down. And, yeah, it was, it was just horrendous and I was in the middle of the process and I just thought, how can I put myself in the hands of this organisation who will do this, you know, and also I hadn't had a relationship at that point. And at the point where I came out of the process for ordination, I let my partner down, so it was 20 years ago.

01:17:21.980 - 01:17:55.680

So, you know, I, and that wouldn't have happened if I'd have been ordained, you know, at that point. So, I decided to go forward for ordination when I was in a position to do it part time and not to be reliant on it for my whole income. Right, yes. Basically as a, I mean, as a protection against oneself, really.

01:17:57.560 - 01:18:22.580

You know, if you're living, people have lost homes over the sexuality issues and that sort of thing. So, yeah. And I, there was something, I just wasn't prepared to do that, but to come to it later. So, that was why you waited until 2021, for, almost for practical reasons.

01:18:22.940 - 01:18:49.300

Practical reasons and also I think an emotional, you know, how do I, and I had to be pretty, I had to be kicked pretty hard in order to go forward for it anyway by people. Why did you need to be kicked hard? Because I was risking myself to this organisation that is not... You still felt that it was homophobic?

01:18:50.220 - 01:19:08.360

Yes, yes, yes. And do you still feel that? Yes, yes. What I have been able to do is to find a diocese and a church where I can be myself and I can be open without having to be secret.

01:19:09.300 - 01:19:37.420

You know, private but secret, not secret. And this church, we have a lot of gay people here and we long to do the blessings when we can. And we would be delighted to do those. And so I found a place where I can belong as myself.

01:19:38.960 - 01:20:05.920

Goodness, what a journey. It's been exhausting. But yes, I mean, yeah, it has. And, you know, it's been difficult for my partner as well because you've got somebody who, I mean not all the time, but for whom these are real issues and can be distracted by them.

01:20:06.420 - 01:20:14.600

Is your partner involved in the church? No. Does she have a religious faith? No, no, no.

01:20:15.600 - 01:20:34.680

Jan has a faith in humanity and in women. And so our values are together. Sure. You know, but the way we've got to them is very, very different.

01:20:35.020 - 01:21:00.480

Yeah, yeah. How do you feel about people that have stood in your way on, you know, both on the ordination of women and on accepting gay rights as part of the church? As a Christian, how have you found it? That's a difficult one to answer.

01:21:02.120 - 01:21:24.280

At times, deeply frustrating. More painful than I can ever imagine. That sense of exclusion, of not fitting. So, you know, these issues about belonging that go way back for me, you know, are still around.

01:21:26.980 - 01:21:45.500

But what do I feel about them? I think I feel most angry at times about the gay people who have stood in my way. The gay people who have stood in your way? Yes, yes.

01:21:45.980 - 01:22:25.280

Because I've decided to be out and not have any secrets. And there are other people who don't do that and who withhold information that I would never withhold from somebody in a position who was making a decision about my future. But there are certainly gay people who do that. And, you know, okay, you could say that's my choice, but...

01:22:25.280 - 01:22:33.480

I completely hear what you're saying. Yeah, do you? Yeah, I mean, the church is about honesty, isn't it? You hope.

01:22:33.480 - 01:22:43.480

Shouldn't it be? You hope. Yeah, yeah. And so then you did become a priest in 2021.

01:22:44.360 - 01:22:51.480

Yes, yes. And how do you feel about your work now? I love it. Absolutely.

01:22:52.920 - 01:23:13.800

It fits like a glove. You know, in many ways I'm in my element. I'm also a hospital chaplain. And that's something that, again, it fits like a well-fitting glove.

01:23:14.420 - 01:23:33.740

And it's me. And so there's a sense of, my goodness, if only I could have done this earlier sometimes. But I didn't, and I didn't for very good reasons. And so I'm just delighted that I've got the chance to do it anyway.

01:23:33.860 - 01:23:58.180

I absolutely love it. You know, being around people in the extremes of life and then the ordinariness of life as well. And you get both. Do you think that this tension about women's place in the church is still there?

01:23:59.700 - 01:24:12.060

You know, we've got women bishops. Yeah. But how does it feel? Is there still this sort of underlying feeling that, you know, I'm not sure that that should ever have happened?

01:24:13.400 - 01:24:33.500

Yes, there is. And there are people who believe that this is, we're only in what they call a stage of reception. And that at some point the church will decide that it's got it wrong. Really?

01:24:33.700 - 01:24:49.100

Yes, oh yes. I didn't know that. Yes, yes, yes. And so people like Judith Maltby have done a lot of work on the way that the theology of reception has been misused.

01:24:50.400 - 01:25:15.600

However, you know, I mean, this is very esoteric. And it's only sort of discussed and hung on to by a small group of people. The majority, I think, of people in the majority of parish churches decided not very interested, actually. Yes.

01:25:15.660 - 01:25:24.400

You know, what we want is a good vicar who's going to care for us, who's going to love us, you know, and that sort of thing. Yeah, it's done. It's done. Yeah, excellent.

01:25:24.900 - 01:26:03.820

And that's the majority. Yes. You know, these are the peddling of specious arguments that will go on. But what really hurts is when really good priests are put under enormous pressure, who are excluded from roles because, or are made to feel second best.

01:26:03.820 - 01:26:20.680

And that still goes on, most definitely. Women are made to feel second best. Yes, yes, yes. I mean, watch, document such things.

01:26:23.400 - 01:26:50.980

And, you know, I've got friends who've, people who won't, who don't get jobs because somebody somewhere is putting up a block. People who won't receive the Holy Communion from a woman, you know, and that sort of thing. Yeah. It is.

01:26:51.180 - 01:27:07.220

It is. And, I mean, I think it will always be there, as long as that, the act of synod is there, the law is there. Yeah. Now, that's been largely superseded, I'm not exactly clear on it, by the women bishops measure.

01:27:07.660 - 01:27:35.920

But when you're going through training, you have to say that you will work within the five guiding principles. And other people are far better to explain those than me, because I can't even remember them. But these five guiding principles as to working with those who are opposed. And in this deanery we have one person who's opposed, I'm not sure about some of the evangelicals, don't know.

01:27:38.380 - 01:28:23.740

But, you know, you have to agree to go with the five guiding principles. And then we have the situation where a diocesan bishop is appointed who doesn't believe that women should even be in holy orders. And yet, he's got women priests under his jurisdiction again. I don't... I mean, this person had to withdraw from the diocese of Sheffield because the objections in a Sheffield diocese were so strong.

01:28:24.200 - 01:29:00.420

But that's not been the case in the diocese that he has gone to in Blackburn. But, yeah. Turning it on its head, now that we've got where we are, are there aspects that only women priests and bishops, you think, or especially women priests and bishops, can bring to the religion? I suppose the question is, you know, how do we move things on? How do we make it better?

01:29:00.420 - 01:29:10.900

Better, yes. No reason why it should be better. No, that's actually quite right, yeah. And we certainly don't have to prove. Absolutely.

01:29:11.060 - 01:30:03.500

That's right. However, there are women who feel, particularly in the higher echelons, who do feel that they have to prove themselves in a way that otherwise they wouldn't if they were a man. You know, one of our big arguments in favour is that God has created humanity, so that all those references to man were actually humanity. And, therefore, nothing bad is going to happen if a woman is behind that altar. And I think just that sense of representation has changed things enormously.

01:30:03.820 - 01:30:40.080

So it has changed perceptions too much. And even for those who were doubting, and a lot of women doubted as much as men, and you sort of think, well, yeah, you know, no, it doesn't make any difference. And, you know, why should the gender of the person behind the altar affect the working of the sacrament? Absolutely.

01:30:42.220 - 01:31:10.320

So people answer that differently now. I also think that both women and men have... I'm not one of those who says, oh, the good thing about having women there is that they've given birth or something like that. You know, you can imagine it, can't you? And I think that gets very close to, you know, women can be there for women. Yeah. No, no.

01:31:11.400 - 01:31:40.480

In my experience, both women and men have exceptional pastoral gifts, and some women and some men have no pastoral gifts. And why should it be any different? You know? So, yeah. I've got a question here about what your idea is of feminist ideology, and has it had an impact on the church?

01:31:42.720 - 01:32:20.500

Sorry, I meant to say feminist theology, not ideology. Yes, yes. I mean, for me, feminist theology is... I'm not going to use the word complementary, because that's too loaded from another debate about sexuality, that women and men together in marriage are complementary. And that has been loaded with a whole load of stuff that I don't want to go anywhere near.

01:32:21.500 - 01:33:19.120

But, I think, in terms of feminist theology, I mean, I came to a position of, by reading, you know, some Daphne Hanson, by reading Elaine Storkey and others, so a whole range of feminist theologians that actually have very, very different ending points. I mean, for me, we are made male and female, and that now is a lot more fluid than it was, because of technological advances, et cetera, et cetera. So, there has to be, for me, feminist theology is about embracing diversity.

01:33:21.540 - 01:33:45.680

And that diversity, though it is our big problem, is God's gift. And we see that same diversity in creation, in, you know, all around us. So, what for us is a problem is actually a gift. And I think that's where I would be in terms of feminist theology.

01:33:45.900 - 01:34:10.060

Yes, it's been hugely influential. I mean, particularly in the 80s and the 90s, you know, to have theologians, and male theologians, saying, you know, this just won't do. But a lot will go for the sort of male and female complementarity. I don't want to go there.

01:34:10.240 - 01:34:34.540

I'd rather talk about human diversity, about diversity in creation, because, you know, the whole trans debate won't any longer let us go to male and female. That's a whole other area, which I find very difficult. Me too. Yes.

01:34:35.260 - 01:34:43.340

Yeah. At least we're having a debate now. Yes. I don't think that both sides were not listening at all.

01:34:43.440 - 01:34:52.500

That's right. There is some semblance of listening. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I'm going to start winding up, because I've taken up a lot of your time.

01:34:52.560 - 01:34:58.460

How long have we been going? For an hour and a half. Oh, have we been going? It's been absolutely fascinating.

01:34:59.680 - 01:35:24.120

And if I may ask you, is there some advice that you would give to a woman deacon starting out today, based on your experience? And I hope you don't say, don't do it. No, I wouldn't. I would say, no, no, no, no, make sure that you do it.

01:35:24.120 - 01:35:54.500

This is what we fought for. And the battles were bitter. So the first thing I would say is don't forget your sisters who've gone before. You know, now it might be a bit easier, but there were so many people who had vocations to the diaconess and to the priesthood who could not fulfil that in their lifetimes.

01:35:55.280 - 01:36:09.860

And we stand on their shoulders. So I would want to say, remember the history and don't discard it. But certainly go and do it. But do be prepared for knocks.

01:36:11.700 - 01:36:27.260

Thank you. And looking to the future, what hopes do you have for women clergy for the future? We've seen these still undercurrents go away. What do you think?

01:36:34.900 - 01:37:16.860

I think that the church will come to a point of realising the gifts that it has of people of faith. Of women that it has not taken. And particularly thinking of young women today who look at the church and think, well, I might have done, but no, I'm not. I can't go there.

01:37:17.460 - 01:37:29.060

Right. Are there changes that you think could be made to overcome those barriers? And if so, what might they be? If we could just change things like that, which we really can't.

01:37:29.140 - 01:37:59.640

And that would be, I think, an attitudinal change with the everyday little misogynists that still exist. Oh, why did you ask him to do that and not me? Why did you ask him to do that and not me? And I've certainly felt that.

01:38:00.580 - 01:38:43.160

And I think it's a whole mixture of things. And the person concerned would, I don't think, is misogynistic for one moment. But I think that there is an unexamined unconscious bias. So if only the unconscious bias could move away from looking only to those who look and think like me.

01:38:43.760 - 01:38:55.380

Sure. It's going to take time. It is. It is. It is. We've covered an enormous amount of ground this afternoon, which I'm so, so grateful for.

01:38:55.940 - 01:39:08.400

Are there areas that I haven't asked you about that you thought that we wouldn't be talking about or you'd like to talk about? No, I don't think so. Obviously, if you think of anything else, you can always let me know. Yeah. Yeah.

01:39:10.100 - 01:39:50.560

No, I don't think so. I mean, I think that we've, I think I probably would say that this took a huge amount of efforts and energies of people over a long time for this to happen. And I would want to acknowledge publicly, you know, that I actually came to it quite late. And I would have liked to have thought that I would have been there earlier.

01:39:51.440 - 01:40:30.200

But you come in at the time that you do. But for me, you know, that time on General Synod was just one of the defining moments, times of my life. And a few years ago, I preached a sermon, I think it was in this church, about being there at the right time. And so I asked various people to talk about occasions when you'd been there that you felt at the right time.

01:40:31.760 - 01:40:54.260

And so we'd have had a hundred plus people in church and a couple of people had mentioned it. And somebody had said about, you know, being at a very exciting cricket match and everything. And I said that I felt I was at the right time there for the ordination of women to the priesthood. And the church erupted in applause.

01:40:54.680 - 01:41:03.720

Oh, fantastic. Yes. How wonderful. I said, I don't know quite how it happened, but I was there, you know.

01:41:03.720 - 01:41:34.880

And my vicar said, well, he said, you know, my being at a cricket match is nothing compared to that. And, you know, and that I think was, yeah, I mean, I just feel such, even though we've still got a way to go. And I never thought then, I didn't even have an idea about being ordained. And so I just sort of thought, yes, I was in the right place at the right time.

01:41:36.360 - 01:41:49.780

And that just was, it was a defining moment of my life. I completely understand that. Thank goodness you were there. Yeah, well, you know, we were all there working, working, working together.

01:41:51.700 - 01:42:00.460

And, yeah. Well, thank you so much. Thank you. It's been such a fascinating afternoon.

01:42:01.020 - 01:42:16.340

Completely exceeded all my expectations, but you're already high. Thank you so much. Well, thank you for all you're doing as well, because, you know, I mean, books have been written, but nothing quite like this. No.

01:42:16.480 - 01:42:20.340

And it is important. Absolutely so. Yeah. Yeah.

01:42:20.640 - 01:42:23.900

Well, thank you. I'll switch this off now.