00:00:00.780 - 00:00:23.040

Hello, this is Carmen Mangin. It's the 12th of February 2024, and can you tell me your name, your birth date and your place of birth? So I'm the very Reverend Jane Hedges. I was born on the 6th of April 1955 in Southampton. Terrific. And can you tell me what your parents did for work?

00:00:23.600 - 00:00:48.540

Yeah, so my father was a butcher. Like a lot of people in his generation, he did serve some time in the army during the war, but he was a butcher by trade and he had his own shop by the time I was sort of in my mid-childhood. My mum was a housewife, but she did use to help him out in the shop and she also did some hairdressing part-time, but they were

00:00:48.540 - 00:01:05.980

very much a working class family. And where were you educated? So I went to the local primary school. We lived in a place called Locksheath, which was half way between Portsmouth and Southampton. I went to the local primary school at Locksheath

00:01:05.980 - 00:01:25.600

and then to the secondary school at Salisbury. And I was educated at the time when kids could still leave school at 16, so I did leave school at 16 with just some O-levels and some CSEs. I did a year at the local technical college and then left to work in a bank. And how long did you work in the bank?

00:01:25.660 - 00:01:48.140

And I worked in the bank for three years, but very soon after I'd left school, when I was at technical college, I began to feel that I had a call to the priesthood. So I was 17, I was very lucky, I went to a church where the parish priest had previously worked with a deaconess, and so when I very, very tentatively said, I think God might be calling

00:01:48.140 - 00:02:10.420

me to be a priest, he didn't push me away. He just very gently said, actually at the moment, girls can't be priests, but you could be a deaconess. And he then sort of helped me through those next three years actually, because you probably know you can't begin training until you're 20 anyway. But I was introduced to the head deaconess in the diocese

00:02:10.420 - 00:02:39.620

of Portsmouth. I hadn't taken A-levels at school, so I carried on working at the bank, did A-levels at evening class and through correspondence course. And then at the age of 20, I went to, as it was then, an ACM, which was then the board that did the selection for people going forward for ordination, and I was recommended for training. So at the

00:02:39.620 - 00:03:03.940

age of 20, I then went to university. So I was very lucky and got a place at Durham, that same year at St. John's Durham, to do a theology degree. So I was incredibly lucky, having gone to a secondary modern school, actually then to end up at Durham University was quite something, something I never dreamed of really.

00:03:04.280 - 00:03:30.740

Can I take you back just a little bit? How in your family, how was faith lived in your family? Okay, so my mum was always, you know, a practising Christian. She went to church regularly and we were encouraged as small children. I had two brothers, two older brothers. We were encouraged to go to Sunday school and to church. My brothers were choir boys at our local church

00:03:30.740 - 00:03:48.920

and I, we all went to this funny little Sunday school actually, which was a sort of free church. We used to be picked up on a Sunday afternoon in sort of sharabang and taken to Sunday school. But then when I was, I don't know, probably eight or nine, I started going to the Church of England Sunday school. I wasn't very keen on it, to be honest. I found

00:03:48.920 - 00:04:08.480

it all a bit boring and, you know, didn't like having to dress up on a Sunday to go to Sunday school. And actually, my parents were very relaxed about all of that. And I think about the age of 10 really, I stopped going and used to find rather more interesting things to do on a Sunday. And then when I was 12, I had a, my close friend was in the

00:04:08.480 - 00:04:32.480

choir at church and there was a new vicar and I was sort of encouraged to go. I joined the choir and it was sort of from there I got very much, you know, kind of involved with, with church life. And so my dad didn't ever go to church. He was a very, very keen cyclist. So on a Sunday he used to go cycle racing. So that's, so yes, so I, so I grew

00:04:32.480 - 00:04:54.180

up in a family that was very sympathetic to all of this, but they weren't overly religious. And at the stage when I first said, oh, I think I want to be ordained, my mum was slightly horrified. I mean, she, she, she said, oh, I don't think girls can do that. And then she said, and what would dad say? You know, so we had all that, but actually my father

00:04:54.180 - 00:05:13.920

was really very supportive. Once, once it was all explained to him, you know, the process by which I would, you know, go, go through all this training, because they were very much of that generation and background where they thought girls really left school and perhaps had a job for a little while and then got married and had babies. Didn't really

00:05:13.920 - 00:05:32.460

believe in girls going to, you know, to college or whatever. So the idea of me going to university was really quite, you know, a very, very new thing in our family. But my, my parents were very supportive. Once, you know, once they knew I was really serious about this, they were incredibly supportive. And of course I was at Durham for five years because I did

00:05:32.460 - 00:05:48.740

three years as an undergraduate and then went straight on to Cranmer Hall and did two years postgraduate training. So it was a long, quite a long haul. So I was then made deaconess at the age of 25. And throughout that time, you're, were you a part of the deaconess congregation at that

00:05:48.740 - 00:06:09.040

time or the, the deaconess community? No. So, so at that stage, when I went to, to selection conference at the age of 20, the, the rule was at that stage that any women being trained had to be parish workers for two years before they could be a deaconess. So I was, I was selected to go forward for

00:06:09.040 - 00:06:34.020

training to be a parish worker. But actually by the time I finished my degree in 1978, the rules had changed and they decided that women could be deaconesses immediately they came out of college. So during the time I was at Cranmer Hall, I went to a second select, very short 24 hour selection conference to be a deaconess and was, you know, went through

00:06:34.020 - 00:06:57.140

that and then yeah, I was, so, so it, it, it was really the, that you were doing exactly the same training as men that were going to be made deacons and priests. But at the end of it, you were deaconess because that was all you could be at that stage. And interestingly, as I was leaving Durham, so that was in 1980, that I finished training and was taken back

00:06:57.140 - 00:07:19.540

to the, to the Portsmouth Diocese, which had been my sponsoring diocese. I was offered a post in the Fareham team ministry. At that stage, there were hardly any other, I mean, there weren't any other deaconesses in the Portsmouth Diocese. So it was all kind of, it was very interesting and, and as I say, you did everything alongside the ordinance.

00:07:19.680 - 00:07:41.180

So I, you know, I was, I went on retreat with them, but was made, made deaconess in a separate service in the parish church where I was going to serve, but then did post-ordination training with. So that was really at that stage when it became very clear that this was so unjust, really, you know, I ended up, you know, I had a good degree. I got, you

00:07:41.180 - 00:08:04.120

know, a merit at, at, in the post-grad training and all the rest of it. So you were alongside the men doing just the same training, but at the end of it, you couldn't be a priest. And yeah, so that's when I joined Mo. Good move. Did the, did the men who were training with you, who were studying with you, did

00:08:04.120 - 00:08:25.480

he, obviously you were aware of the injustice of it, were, were they, would, would they have even thought that there's something awkward about this? Yeah, some of them did. I mean, it was quite interesting. At Cranmer Hall, you probably know, I mean, at the stage when I went to college, there were only three residential

00:08:25.480 - 00:08:50.180

training colleges that took women. There was the Durham, Bristol and Lincoln. And both Durham and Bristol were from an evangelical tradition, although Bristol was much more conservative than Durham. And Durham, because it was very much integrated with the wider university, was a good place to be really, anyway, to train. So because of the nature

00:08:50.180 - 00:09:11.600

of Cranmer Hall, there was quite a good mixture of churchmanship. There were quite a lot of people from an evangelical background, but there were quite a lot of other people from either a liberal Catholic background or sort of middle church really, and quite a, quite an age range too. So there were people there that I would have regarded in those days as

00:09:11.600 - 00:09:36.720

quite old, that were in their mid-forties. And we were terrible. We used to call anybody over 30 a geriatric. So, but there were, there was a good range of sort of views. And so there were certainly quite, what I call quite mature people who, who did actually quite get it in terms of this isn't right, this shouldn't be happening. There were other people

00:09:36.720 - 00:09:58.100

from a background that actually were still saying, well, women couldn't possibly be priests. So if you think you've got a call to the priesthood, you've got it all wrong. You know, you're deluded. So, so sort of quite a mixture of, of things really. And while I was at Durham, I think it was in 1978, that there was one of the big votes in General

00:09:58.100 - 00:10:18.860

Synod. And I remember that was, that was just at the time I would have been coming up to graduate. So I was still in John's Hall at that stage, an undergraduate. I can remember some of the women in Cranmer Hall at that stage being incredibly upset, you know, really, really upset. And I don't think I quite got it at that stage. I was still really, I was

00:10:18.860 - 00:10:36.920

still at the stage of being so excited about the possibility of being a deaconess that I wasn't that worried about not being able immediately to be a priest. And it wasn't really until I'd gone right the way through the training. And then thinking, actually, this isn't right. You know, this is, you know, the fact that, you know, in a year's time,

00:10:36.920 - 00:10:54.420

all these young chaps have been training with me, are going to be made priests, and I'm not. And so that's when I, you know, I got quite, quite sort of militant, really. These other women that were with you, were there a lot of women? I mean, they would have been training for...

00:10:54.420 - 00:11:13.980

There were quite a few women training because, as I say, because there were only the three places taking women. And also at that time, there weren't all these local courses, people like, people went, you know, if you were going to train, you trained, what they call properly in a college. So, you know, so yeah, there were quite, at Cranmer Hall, there was

00:11:13.980 - 00:11:36.820

quite a, quite a large contingent of women. And quite a few of them, though, were older, you know, they'd done other jobs, they'd been teachers or missionaries, all sorts of people. And there were occasionally people that came and, you know, spent some time in Cranmer Hall because they were doing a PhD or whatever. So yeah, there was quite a good mixture of

00:11:36.820 - 00:11:54.940

people. If they, I mean, did most of them want to be deaconesses or were there other... No, they were mainly, they were mainly people either going to be parish workers or deaconesses. So I think the colleges really, in subsequent years, have broadened out to take people on

00:11:54.940 - 00:12:19.720

other courses, just really in order to kind of fill their places. But at that stage, Cranmer Hall was definitely, it was quite a small college. I mean, it was, I think, probably St John's College overall was, you know, divided in the two halls. St John's Hall, I think, had about 200 undergraduates. And I think there was somewhere between about 55 and 60

00:12:19.720 - 00:12:46.540

in Cranmer Hall. It was quite small. And in John's, there were very few women because it only, that had only become a mixed hall. I was the third year women and there were only 11 women in our year. So yeah, we were quite unusual. Were you, were there Christian organisations to belong to while you were there? I'm thinking,

00:12:47.720 - 00:13:04.380

you know, like, well, youth groups sort of things. Were there those sorts of things to belong to at the time? Well, most of the people in St John's belonged to the Christian Union, because of the sort of tradition it was. Now, I wasn't, I came from a liberal Catholic background. So actually,

00:13:04.560 - 00:13:25.440

landing up in St John's College was quite an experience for me, because I was pretty ignorant, really, about the evangelical sort of tradition. And so coming up against youngsters that suddenly started asking you if you were really a Christian, because you came from a, you know, church that was, that didn't do the sort of things that they did, was interesting.

00:13:26.360 - 00:13:44.720

But even in John's, there were, there was a smattering of other youngsters that came from, you know, other traditions. And so I used to go to church at St Oswald's, which was over the other side of the river, and it was high church. And I loved, I mean, so in some ways, I got quite, I always felt that I got the best of both worlds, really,

00:13:44.720 - 00:14:08.520

because actually, John's gave a very, I mean, it gave a very, very good training in biblical studies. And, you know, and I really, by the time I left, really, I had a pretty, pretty comprehensive, you know, knowledge of the Bible. And, you know, and quite really very good, they did, I mean, Cramwell did a very good sort of preaching

00:14:08.520 - 00:14:33.080

ministry and all of that. At the same time as actually during my time at Cramwell Hall, I was supervised by the vicar of St Oswald's, where I did a placement. And so he was brilliant. I mean, he became the Bishop of Huntingdon, just as I was leaving Durham. But he was also the chair of the trustees of the Samaritans. So I actually, I trained to be a Samaritan

00:14:33.080 - 00:14:54.380

during the time I was at Cramwell Hall. So because I'd done a theology degree, I was I was able to do all of the academic stuff in a year at Cramwell Hall. And in my second year, they were sort of trialling that sort of pastoral studies, when it would have become an MA, if it eventually wasn't while I was doing it. But we, a few of us did this sort

00:14:54.380 - 00:15:17.960

of extended dissertation, and also twice as much sort of practical work. So in fact, I was doing, as I say, I trained to be a Samaritan and spent several nights a week actually on duty. But then I was also doing a pastoral placement at St Oswald's. So in fact, actually really my second year at Cramwell, I wasn't doing very much academic work, I was just

00:15:17.960 - 00:15:48.340

actually writing an extended dissertation on counselling. So it was interesting. So yeah, so it was an interesting time. And in terms of, I'd say, I didn't, I wasn't really very, I didn't really know much about Mo until in my second year at Cranwell. I was, you know, we had to do residential placements. And I did a placement in London at Cricklewood,

00:15:48.900 - 00:16:11.820

alongside a deaconess who'd become involved with Mo. But it was all a bit secretive at that stage. She used to go up to me, she wouldn't take me because I was just a student. So it's But it was obviously taking off at that stage. That would have been 1979, I was doing that placement. And then by 1980, when I, as I say, when I, when I left, you know, left college

00:16:11.820 - 00:16:39.000

and I was made deaconess, I joined Mo at that, I joined and then I used to go, I can remember, you know, doing talks at PCCs and getting, getting a whole PCCs to join. And then when I moved to Southampton in 1983, I think I became the chair of the local Mo group at that stage, or certainly very involved in it, and in due course became the chair.

00:16:39.840 - 00:17:04.660

Just to take you a little bit back to the deaconesses. So, so you become a deaconess. Is, what is deaconess like, life like for you? I mean, how long were you a deaconess? So for seven years altogether. So when I, so, so I was made deaconess, I became the, you know, joined the team ministry in Fairham. Now, Fairham at that stage, it was a market

00:17:04.660 - 00:17:28.220

town, not very far from where I grew up. And it had a team ministry of a team rector, two team vicars, a curate and a non-stipendry priest serving, I mean, it was quite a big population. It had two churches. Now, I was the first deaconess they'd had, so they'd always had a curate up until that point. So in fact, I was just treated like any other curate.

00:17:28.820 - 00:17:51.360

So I did, you know, in the first year, they would have been used to having a deacon who couldn't preside at the Eucharist. So I, I just did all the things that a curate would have done. So I, I, you know, ran sort of youth groups and baptism classes for people and confirmation classes for kids. And I used to run a play scheme in the summer and

00:17:51.360 - 00:18:11.440

I was very, I mean, it was a very active parish. And one of the, one of the team vicars was team vicar for education. So he used to, used to, used to devise all these courses, which of course, then I used to help run those courses and, and became quite sort of involved with the whole sort of adult education movement during my time as the curate there. Also got

00:18:11.440 - 00:18:33.700

quite involved in community stuff because that was the kind of, that was the philosophy there. You, you know, you got, you got really involved with, with community groups. So I was involved with a, a group that would run bereavement training. So I'd got very much into that sort of thing, but also I trained to be a counsellor for, for young people.

00:18:33.700 - 00:18:54.400

They ran a sort of, you know, it was called in confidence. So kids could come, you know, drop in and talk about anything. So I was involved with that. So I also used to run these play schemes, which were actually those in those days funded by the local authority. You know, so, so I was, I was there for three years, which would have been the normal curacy

00:18:54.400 - 00:19:15.900

length time. And I had wonderful colleagues who were completely in favour of the ordination of women. So I used to be kind of able to do as much as legally I was allowed to do. So, you know, took a full part in leading the liturgy on a Sunday right up until, you know, it got to the Eucharistic prayer, which wasn't allowed to do. And then I, I got

00:19:15.900 - 00:19:41.860

married during my time in, when I was at Fairham. And, and then, you know, three years in, you know, the norm was to move on. And I moved to Southampton to the city centre team ministry. And I was appointed as a team vicar, even though I was a deaconess. So, and, and once again, the team ministry in Southampton at that stage had 16 vicars

00:19:42.460 - 00:20:00.760

when I was one and a team rector, and they all did really interesting jobs. There were three of us that did neighbourhood jobs. So we were looking, had pastoral care of the neighbourhood within the city centre. And then there were three team vicars that were looking after, you know, areas of ministry. So one was, was very much involved in social

00:20:00.760 - 00:20:20.580

services and social work. Another one was involved in industrial mission. And then the other one in education. The team rector was very much involved in the political life of the city. And then, as I said, then there were three of us that looked after residential areas. So I had what was called the polygon area and, and St Michael's. And they were,

00:20:20.760 - 00:20:44.960

the polygon area was a, it was an area that were lots of, lots of multi-occupied dwellings. So lots of people at that stage who'd been discharged from hospital, you know, and they were living, living in bedsits and quite a lot of them had mental health issues. So it was quite an eye opener, actually. I was quite, I was 28 when I went there. And, and

00:20:44.960 - 00:21:05.120

I was also a hospital chaplain. So it was a, it was a huge learning curve for me. And then the house that Chris and I lived in, St Peter's House, was designated as a pastoral centre because it was in an area where the church had been closed down, sold off to be a nightclub. So, and that's, the city centre team rector was like that. There were

00:21:05.120 - 00:21:26.840

lots of these closed down churches and it had two churches serving this big area. So it was quite radical. And actually I had some pretty radical colleagues who actually would have probably broken the law in those days in order to let me do things that I shouldn't do. But, but we didn't break the law, but they used to push the boundaries to the

00:21:26.840 - 00:21:52.160

absolute limits. And what was, I'd say, quite interesting really at that stage is that the Bishop of, it was the Bishop of Winchester. He was, he was charming, but he was, he was very, he was very anxious about the ordination of women. And I think, you know, you never quite knew where these bishops stood as whether we, whether you'd got their support or not.

00:21:52.180 - 00:22:14.520

And I can remember having, you know, some quite hurtful, in those days, kind of correspondence with the bishop. But it was during my time in Southampton that of course the legislation went through to allow women to become deacons. So in 1987, there were about, there weren't very many of us. There were about, I don't know, six or seven of us in the whole Diocese

00:22:14.520 - 00:22:34.460

of Winchester were made deacon in the, in the Winchester Cathedral. Now did you need to go through a particular training? No, because we'd already, not only had we trained, but we'd had years of experience. So we, there was a sort of general, I think, interview with the bishop, but it was, it

00:22:34.460 - 00:23:04.000

was, you know, just a natural, there was no, no, no question of there being extra training. As I say, I was already being paid as a, as a team vicar by that stage. And, and I'd been in ministry for, well, how long? Seven years already. Now, when you, so just to back up a bit, with regards to being a deaconess, were you associated

00:23:04.000 - 00:23:22.540

with the community at all? Only in as much as the, the deaconess order of St. Andrews, we, we all, we were all, you know, under ordination, receipt, or it wasn't called an ordination, it was called the laying on of hands, you know. Yeah, so I mean, they didn't, they didn't like to

00:23:22.540 - 00:23:41.920

call it an ordination, although you had hands laid on you, you were not in the holy orders. I mean, it was this, you know, this, this really kind of odd thing. So we all had deaconess crosses, which were the deaconess order of St. Andrew crosses. And they, and they as an order used to send out these little cards, you know, on the, the anniversary of my ordination

00:23:41.920 - 00:24:01.160

was the 28th of June. And, and so we had that association, but that was it. There was no other, there was no other connection. No community life, no meeting up every year? No, no, no, there wasn't. So all of the, all of the kind of your kind of meeting up

00:24:01.160 - 00:24:23.280

of stuff was within the diocese. So there were, there were, there were a small number of women in ministry when I was in Portsmouth, but they were mainly very elderly. And there was one woman that was a, was a parish worker that was, you know, in full time ministry at the same time. I think there were just the two of us in full time ministry in Portsmouth.

00:24:23.460 - 00:24:41.840

And then as I say, when I moved to Winchester, that by the time we were made deacon, there were, there was, I got a photograph of our ordination, so I think there were six of us, I think, at that stage. One of whom was a university chaplain, another one was a hospital chaplain, and then there was me in Southampton, and I can't quite remember what the others

00:24:41.840 - 00:24:59.300

did. Just back to Southampton for a moment. So you are ministering in Southampton as a deaconess. Are you ministering to other church, are you ministering to Church of England people or anyone?

00:24:59.760 - 00:25:20.320

Oh no, to Church of England people. So I was, so I was licensed. So the Southampton City Centre team ministry had, you know, it covers, it covers the centre of Southampton, which as I say, got these sort of three areas of quite dense population. One of which was kind of, was clustered around the Southampton Hospital, which was a big hospital, and I

00:25:20.320 - 00:25:44.740

became the chaplain for that hospital, in addition to looking after my two neighbourhoods. But the, but the two churches, the two Anglican churches, which serve the whole area, were St Mary's, Southampton, and St Michael's. So, so on a Sunday, we were ministering to the congregations that worshipped in those two churches, and St Michael's was a very

00:25:44.740 - 00:26:02.420

high church. So that was quite interesting, because when I first there, they'd had, they'd had a woman on the team for a long time, but the previous woman had been a parish worker rather than the deaconess, so they kind of got used to there being a deaconess, and then of course to me being a deacon and wearing a dog collar and being called the Reverend.

00:26:03.240 - 00:26:23.040

And actually, it was quite interesting at St Michael's that they gradually came round to the fact that I was, you know, I was there and quite in favour of actually women being ordained. St Mary's was much more, you know, liberal, middle of the church, middle of the road church, and most of the people there would have been very much in favour

00:26:23.040 - 00:26:44.620

of the ordination of women. But what was interesting in Southampton was that most, in the week, I would be all ministering to all sorts of people in the community, you know, in the hospital, and to all these people that used our house. We had all sorts of groups coming into the house that were, again, some of them funded by social services, so there was

00:26:44.620 - 00:27:10.260

a lunch club and a toddler group, and there were social workers who used to come in for meetings and all sorts. So I had a very sort of outward-looking ministry, but it was kind of rooted in, you know, obviously being in church on a Sunday, and having colleagues that were all ordained, and we used to meet regularly, we used to meet every week for a team meeting,

00:27:10.360 - 00:27:37.060

but we also met for worship during the week as well. So it was, you know, it was rooted in that, but actually very much out in the community. It was a very, I have to say, it was tough. It was a really tough time. And although I had fantastic colleagues, it was such hard work, really, really physically hard work, because I was always out and about

00:27:37.060 - 00:27:56.860

doing stuff. And we had only got married a year before we went to Southampton, so we were, you know, we were young marrieds. We didn't have, we weren't planning to have children and didn't while we were in Southampton. We had a dog, we had two dogs, we had two dogs and a cat living in our, in this house, so it was always all these people in and out

00:27:56.860 - 00:28:20.240

of it. But by the time I left Southampton to go back to the Portsmouth Diocese to become the stewardship advisor, I was fairly worn out, I have to say, by just simply having to kind of give, give, give, really. But it was fantastic training in lots of ways. And sorry, just one last question, because this is the late 70s, early 80s.

00:28:20.240 - 00:28:48.580

So we're into the, by the time I, so I moved to Southampton in 1983, and I was there till 1988. So I moved back to the Portsmouth Diocese as then a deacon, so fully, you know, in orders, but, but I, but I, I had funnily enough thought that I might be called to be a hospital chaplain full time, because I really enjoyed the hospital chaplaincy work in Southampton. But I applied

00:28:48.580 - 00:29:09.620

for several jobs, and that didn't, nothing came of that. And then I was encouraged to go back to Portsmouth. And then this post came up as a stewardship advisor, which is, you know, kind of, as you probably know, he's kind of teaching me about giving and all of that sort of thing. But I got that post and moved, moved to a parish, we lived in the parish of Waterlooville,

00:29:10.580 - 00:29:28.600

which again, had a very high church priest, and the bishop at that stage said to me, I don't think that you'll necessarily get a welcome at that church, you know, because I was ministering across the whole diocese, but it was thought it would be quite good to have somewhere that was a bit anchored. And my husband and I sort of went to one or

00:29:28.600 - 00:29:48.520

two churches in the area when we first moved into Waterlooville, didn't really find anywhere we particularly liked. And then we went to St. George's, and liked it. And the vicar, as I say, Father Malcolm, he, he was very keen, actually, for me to go and be there, even though I was, you know, I was a woman. So, you know, he was all right about women

00:29:48.520 - 00:30:08.280

deacons, he didn't believe in women becoming priests, but he was all right about me being a deacon. So he was also, I have to be careful what I say, but he was one of these people that he was very happy for me to do all sorts of things. And so we ran the youth group, I used to do lots of baptisms and, and weddings, because I could do weddings and did all sorts

00:30:08.280 - 00:30:34.240

of pastoral work for him, even though I was working across the diocese at the same time. So, but St. George's was a great, it was a lovely church, we enjoyed being there. And actually, during that time, we had children. We had a baby in 1991. And, and by that time, well, we still weren't priests, we're still deacons. And then I was having another baby

00:30:34.240 - 00:31:03.240

in which, which was born at the end of 1992. So just after the vote, that was all very, it was a very interesting time. And actually, by that time, the bishop had asked me to, to move again. And I'd been asked to go to be a residential canon at Portsmouth Cathedral. So I was pregnant at that point. And, and so it was, yeah, so the vote went through.

00:31:04.480 - 00:31:27.220

And, and then we moved, we moved to Portsmouth Cathedral in 1993, beginning of 1993, with a brand new baby and a two year old. And I was installed on the sixth anniversary of my ordination to the diaconate, because you have to be in orders for six years to be a residential canon. I was put in on the anniversary of my ordination. And then was

00:31:27.220 - 00:31:57.140

a deacon for a year at Portsmouth Cathedral, and then priesthood in 1994, when I was already there on the, you know, as a canon. So it was fascinating, really. So tell me what kind of reactions there were to a pregnant deacon in a dog's collar. Well, interesting, really, because, as I said, when we had Johnny, our first baby,

00:31:57.400 - 00:32:21.500

when I was still at Waterlooville and doing the stewardship job and moving about the diocese, our bishop, when I went to see him and said, I'm expecting a baby, was absolutely thrilled. He was just so excited about it. And, and so when Johnny was born, he came in to see me in hospital, while I was in the maternity unit, and he came in to see me

00:32:21.500 - 00:32:40.820

and came in this casket, came into this small room and said, looked at him and said, oh, what a beautiful newborn, because they're not all beautiful, are they? But he was, he was so delighted. But he once again, you see, came from, he was again, came from that tradition that was very iffy about whether women should be priests.

00:32:41.240 - 00:33:09.720

So although, you know, he was, we loved him dearly, Bishop Tim, and we're still in touch with him. He's still alive. And he, he was very supportive at that personal level. And in the diocese, there was, you know, we were sort of very much, you know, it was all lovely. But Portsmouth diocese was one of the diocese that at Diocesan Synod voted against women being priests.

00:33:10.940 - 00:33:25.300

So it's quite hard, you know, there was that sort of dual thing, you know, that people were lovely at one level, but come to the vote. And quite often people wouldn't, you know, you got a surprise, you think, I always thought they were going to be in favour and they're not.

00:33:26.660 - 00:33:48.880

And when the legislation went through in 1992, in November 1992, I was heavily pregnant, so I was four weeks off having Adam. And it caused, Bishop Timothy was in a real tizz, because he, because I mean, he really did genuinely love all his women, but he didn't really want it to go through. And he'd organised this day.

00:33:49.500 - 00:34:05.060

And I can remember it was very highly charged, you know, with all these women that now thought, oh, this is wonderful news. And him thinking, am I going to be ordained? And he didn't know whether he would ordain us. He was in a real, but he did. When it, you know, so as you know, I mean, after the 1992 vote,

00:34:05.380 - 00:34:22.680

it took ages for then all the legislation to get actually put in place. So it was early 1994 before the new, before the first ordinations happened. And it was right up until, you know, right up until that time that he was saying, I'm not sure if I'll ordain you. And then he came to see us all and said, I've decided I will.

00:34:25.600 - 00:34:48.720

And you were asking before about, you know, when we were made deacons. There wasn't obviously there wasn't any extra training again, because by that stage, you know, most of us have been ministering. I've been in orders by that stage for 14 years. But we did have to go through just a very sort of dialysis and level selection procedure.

00:34:48.780 - 00:35:04.420

I think that happened across the whole country. There were just local selectors in place and there were interviews and things. And then there was there was a little bit of preparation in terms of, you know, being able to preside at the Eucharist and those. And we all went on.

00:35:04.520 - 00:35:26.340

We had an ordination retreat. And in Portsmouth, because there were quite a lot of us, actually, to be ordained, it was quite a small cathedral. So we were ordained in two batches. So half of us were ordained on Ascension Day in 1994. And the others, the second half on Pentecost Sunday. So very close together.

00:35:26.600 - 00:35:43.120

But we all went on retreat together. And then the ordination happened. Were you ordained with men? No, it was across the country at that stage. It was all women. And I think that was right, because obviously when men were being made deacons and priests,

00:35:43.160 - 00:36:02.180

they've just come out of college and they were sort of brand new and shiny. Most of us were really by that stage. You know, we've been we've been ministering for a long time. And I think it was recognised that this was a bit of a different thing, you know. So, no, it was we were or it was all women. And yes.

00:36:02.520 - 00:36:25.060

And so most of the ordinations happened ahead of when the Peter died ordinations, the normal ones for people coming out of college. Most of the most of the ordinations, the women happened between March and I would say the middle of June. So ahead of ahead of the people coming out of college.

00:36:26.620 - 00:36:48.220

And then, well, can you tell me a bit about how you felt during the ceremony? I mean, it was incredible. It was incredible. I mean, I can't I I've got some I've got some photographs that were taken, you know, during during this. There was a it was very interesting. There was a man that was doing a project.

00:36:48.500 - 00:37:05.040

He was a photographer and he was very keen to get these photographs of the ordinations. And I think I think what he had in mind at that stage was, you know, some of these women are going to be the first bishops in due course. And he wanted he wanted to get pictures he'd keep.

00:37:05.040 - 00:37:26.700

And I've got I've got these I mean, they're quite arty sort of pictures that were taken. So he's got I've got one of me hold. I got, you know, I was dressed up, you know, ready to preside at Eucharist, but holding Adam on a set of reins, you know, because he was 16 months old at that stage when I was priesthood.

00:37:28.480 - 00:37:55.360

But yeah, so it was the actual ordination itself. I can remember we in Portsmouth, there was the tradition of prostrating ourselves. And so there's this there is this amazing picture of this sort of line of 12 women lying on the floor of the nave. But I can remember as well, by the time that we reached the piece in that service, looking around.

00:37:55.680 - 00:38:09.940

So obviously, as well, I'd been at the cathedral for a year at that stage. So there was some lovely people there that had got, you know, were really so excited about it. And looking across at people in, you know, floods of tears. It was it was amazing. Yeah.

00:38:10.120 - 00:38:34.180

So I can't I it is that it was one it's one of those things you don't ever forget, really. But you and you felt supported at that time. There wasn't any anti's in the. Well, it was quite interesting because there was obviously some anti stuff still around. And there were there were still close friends that were not sure about it.

00:38:34.480 - 00:38:53.040

And so one of my quite close friends didn't come to my ordination. His wife did, but he didn't. And then sometime later, he got in touch and said, well, I want to come. I want to come to you because it's the 30th anniversary this year. He's coming to pre the new dean here very kindly is because, you know,

00:38:53.120 - 00:39:11.600

got quite involved at the cathedral because I was doing the interim dean's job for a few months because he got to know that it was the 30th anniversary. So would you would you like to preside on Ascension Day this year at the cathedral, which I am? And my friend Mike is going to come and preach at that. And we so I was made deaconess when he was made priest.

00:39:12.440 - 00:39:35.560

And so we we've known each other all that time and he's he's our older son's godfather. But as I say, he was he again came from a high church background, wasn't sure to start with, you know. So so it's I think there were there were always those moments when somebody that had been unsure or against the changes. And that's really wonderful. That happened. That happened a lot.

00:39:36.320 - 00:39:58.760

But but you did have moments when, you know, people people could be quite cruel and say horrible things. I mean, it did happen and it carried on happening to some people. I mean, I used to say I've been so lucky over the years. I was so lucky because I was always working with people that, you know, even before we were made priest that wanted women to be priests.

00:40:00.140 - 00:40:22.320

But but you still came up against, you know, the occasional person who would say something really hurtful. And, you know, it was and it was really deeply wounding. But you kind of had to. I was just had to kind of get over it in a sense and remember that people put up with much, much worse things than that. And count. And I was always one for saying, but we've got to count our blessings.

00:40:22.320 - 00:40:46.140

I mean, it was, you know, even when we couldn't be priests, I think actually I wouldn't want to do anything other than being a deaconess at that point or being a deacon. It was an amazing privilege and so much of the ministry you could do. It was this business about not being able to preside that is at the heart of everything you do. And that was painful, particularly.

00:40:46.140 - 00:41:17.080

I mean, I look back to when I was at Fairham, you know, in those early years when I, you know, when it was quite raw, I used to get young and so it was kind of, you know, used to get cross. And there were times when, say, you know, that the other priests were on holiday and under normal circumstances as the curate, I would have been able to take the service and preside at the Eucharist. But because I couldn't, they sometimes have to get somebody very elderly in to do it. And often they couldn't, you know, didn't know what they were doing.

00:41:17.420 - 00:41:40.200

And I can remember people in the congregation getting quite cross about it. It's ridiculous that, you know, you've got to stand alongside this, you know, elderly priest that's forgotten what he's doing and you're there to help him through. You know, so that was when you kind of became aware of how unjust it all was. At the same time, you had a kind of, you know, to some extent, you have to kind of keep your sense of humour too.

00:41:41.620 - 00:41:58.880

And even once you're a priest, I mean, I moved from Portsmouth. I was at Portsmouth Cathedral all together for eight years. It was a very, very happy time. I loved it. And it was such a happy time for us as a family.

00:41:58.880 - 00:42:11.900

Our little boys, you know, grew up there and they loved being there and had lots of friends. And the cathedral was great and it was very lively. And, you know, we had lots of other young people around, lots of naval families. And, you know, it was a very happy time.

00:42:12.120 - 00:42:29.720

And actually, you know, the time came when I really needed to move on, you know, because I was still quite young, you know. And so we had, by that stage, a different bishop who was saying, oh, you need to go and run a parish. You've never run a parish. I said, well, actually, I kind of run this parish, you know, this parish church cathedral.

00:42:29.980 - 00:42:41.960

Well, you know, you need to go and prove yourself. And it used to make me cross. But anyway, to cut a long story short, I mean, I applied for, I thought, no, I like cathedral ministry. I'm going to apply for other jobs in cathedrals.

00:42:43.140 - 00:42:52.960

But I never got shortlisted for anything, which was interesting. You know, I thought, well, this is strange. And up until now, I've always got every job I've gone for. You know, why am I not suddenly getting?

00:42:52.960 - 00:43:12.280

Well, it was because the bishop didn't want me to be. You know, he was telling other bishops, no, she needs to go and run a parish. So in the year 2000, our older boy at that stage was eight. And we were really beginning to think quite seriously about what we were doing about his education because Portsmouth.

00:43:13.600 - 00:43:29.800

Portsmouth, in the middle of Portsmouth, there are not very good secondary schools, or at least I don't know what they're like now, but they weren't. The one we were in the catchment area for was in the top bottom of the bottom 10 schools in the country. We can't send Johnny there. We've got to do something about it. What are we going to do about school?

00:43:31.500 - 00:43:46.620

And so we began to think, he was in the cathedral choir at Portsmouth, but we began to think, or perhaps our organists there were saying, why don't you try and get him into a choir school? So we did. He ended up going to Exeter.

00:43:48.420 - 00:44:03.800

We got a place, Exeter, in the choir and boarding school. But we were in Portsmouth still, it was a long way from Exeter really. Anyway, so I began to sort of think, well, perhaps if I'm going to go to a parish, I'll look down there. And lo and behold, I went.

00:44:04.060 - 00:44:20.420

It's funny how these things happen, but I had to go down to a school thing. And while I was down there, I stayed with a friend in Crediton. And I drove through Crediton and thought, it was a big church in Crediton. I thought, I could quite like to perhaps run a parish like this.

00:44:21.520 - 00:44:37.520

And the next week, Honiton, which was in the Exeter diocese, was advertised. And I thought, well, it's team rector of Honiton. I thought, well, perhaps that would be the place to try. And I applied for that job and was appointed.

00:44:38.980 - 00:44:57.240

And so we moved to Devon. And it was an interesting experience really, because obviously I'd loved a cathedral, moved to this parish church. It was a team ministry. And then I became the royal dean, so had quite a lot of responsibility.

00:44:58.180 - 00:45:17.560

But it was tough because it was an area where the town of Honiton had got quite big. It was 12,000 population. So it was quite a sizable parish, but it had these satellite villages around it. But there were some people in the town that didn't like incomers.

00:45:18.940 - 00:45:37.480

And so I got quite – there wasn't opposition about the ordination of women. And they were quite happy to have a woman vicar, but they didn't like anybody that would change anything. And so I had this kind of battle with people that said that they wanted new people to come to church. But actually when they did come, they weren't very nice to them.

00:45:38.080 - 00:45:52.860

And they didn't – certainly didn't like – they said they wanted to have children in church. But then when you had children in church, they didn't like them because they made a noise. And, you know, so we had all of that stuff I had to cope with. And looking back on it, it was – you know, although I'd been saying to the bishop,

00:45:52.960 - 00:46:07.340

oh, you know, I don't need to go to a parish church, I know all about this. You do find that once you're actually in charge of somewhere that actually it was really tough for a while. And I got there and thought, what have I done? Why have I come here? You know, this is really difficult.

00:46:09.120 - 00:46:25.220

And fortunately, the priest that had been my training incumbent by that stage was older. I mean, he might have even been sort of semi-retired. But I thought, I'm going to get in touch with him and just see whether he would perhaps be – you know, nowadays they give you a mentor, but that's what it was really.

00:46:25.260 - 00:46:35.040

I took him on as a mentor. And he was a bit of a lifesaver, really, because I used to ring him up and say, look, you know, Sanso's doing this now. And he'd say, well, you need to – what you need to say is this.

00:46:35.340 - 00:46:45.400

You know, I had this chap called Cyril. Cyril was so difficult. And he used to come and say, everybody's saying this, you know. They're all moaning because you don't like you're doing this.

00:46:46.120 - 00:47:02.340

And so Bruce said, you need to say to Cyril, who, Cyril? Who said that? And actually, I got there in the end, you know, just standing up to somebody who was basically a bully. And that – and the church grew.

00:47:02.720 - 00:47:18.540

We had a fantastic number of kids started coming to church. We had lots of children in the choir and, you know, big toddler group. And it didn't take very long to kind of get the church quite lively, actually. And it – and both of our boys at that stage then had become choristers at Exeter Cathedral.

00:47:18.800 - 00:47:39.640

So they were both boarding, but they used to come home quite a bit. And I was only there for just over four years. And then by that stage, the bishop of Exeter put me in touch with the archbishop's appointment secretary. And, of course, I got onto that kind of list, as it were.

00:47:39.800 - 00:47:54.080

And then I got his call to go and look at Westminster Abbey. So, yes, that was interesting. Before we go to Westminster Abbey, because that would be exciting. How –

00:47:54.080 - 00:48:18.120

We're okay. How does one – I mean, this is a question for anyone who manages work and children. You know, how – but you're in a role where you're travelling quite a bit. I mean, how is the juggling of your move, your relocations?

00:48:18.380 - 00:48:24.980

Your husband has a job too, presumably. No, he didn't. He gave up his work. So we actually went down that road.

00:48:25.140 - 00:48:49.360

So when we had Johnny, we'd made the decision while I was pregnant – well, actually, probably before I got pregnant – that I would work and Chris would look after the children. So he gave up work because he was an engineer. And he'd always agreed that he would move about with me.

00:48:49.360 - 00:49:05.320

So in our early marriage, he just moved. Every time we moved, he got a new job and moved. So when we were in Waterlooville, he was working Portsmouth. And so he gave up his job and looked after Johnny full time.

00:49:06.300 - 00:49:24.240

And then when we had Adam, and then we'd moved right into the middle of Portsmouth at that stage. So he then got two babies to look after. And then as they got just a little bit older, he did some part-time work again. So he did some work in a local school and then he was quite good on computers.

00:49:24.320 - 00:49:42.220

So he built a database for the diocese and did all that. Then when we moved to Devon, so at this stage, our children were nine and eight. Chris said, oh, I'll go back to work now because they're at boarding school. I can go back to work.

00:49:42.220 - 00:50:00.160

Well, lo and behold, it wasn't very easy to get a job. And so he ended up, he did a job that he really didn't like, which involved him in quite a bit of travel. And after a few months, he really didn't like doing it, so he gave it up. And he then applied for a job as a teaching assistant.

00:50:01.220 - 00:50:15.860

And he got this job as a teaching assistant. Very few months afterwards, the headmistress said, actually, you ought to be a teacher. So he trained to be a teacher on the job. So he qualified as a teacher just at the moment when we moved to Westminster Abbey.

00:50:16.500 - 00:50:36.700

So at that stage, it was possible to juggle boys and having a job. So, yes, that's how we did it. It is hard, I think, for people. And I think one of the things that came up a lot of the time during those years,

00:50:36.700 - 00:50:56.880

you know, I was on various, you know, central bodies that were looking at how women should be deployed. There was always a lot of discussion about, well, you know, women won't always be able to move quite so easily. If they've got husbands, they've got jobs that they won't move. And I do think that's been and to some extent it continues to be an issue, you know,

00:50:56.940 - 00:51:13.700

because and quite often now for women to say move into a really senior post, either to be an archdeacon or a bishop or a dean, you've got to move. You can't just say, well, actually, I'd like to do that, but I'd like to do it locally. It just that doesn't just it doesn't happen.

00:51:14.340 - 00:51:37.120

You know, so you either got to then decide, well, are we then going to have a lifestyle where, you know, we're in two different places and we just, you know, meet up what we can. And I suppose when I moved to Westminster, Chris, Chris was just he was he was by that stage. He was teaching, but he hadn't quite finished his early teaching because I have to do so much.

00:51:37.560 - 00:52:02.800

So so in order to get his, you know, his full teaching qualification, he needed to be another six months in Devon. So he stayed in Devon and I was in Westminster. And actually, Adam, our younger son, had still got the rest of his time at Exeter Choir School to finish as well. So it worked out quite well. Adam and Chris stayed in Devon.

00:52:03.140 - 00:52:16.780

Johnny, at that stage, had gone to Christ Hospital School. So he was quite near London and I was in Westminster. But you sort of manage it like that. And then Chris moved, you know, six months in. And then he was appointed as a science teacher at Westminster Abbey Choir School.

00:52:16.920 - 00:52:32.580

So we were then living in Westminster Abbey, both working within the Abbey. And Adam, our younger son, had then gone to school in London. So he was, you know, just go out to train on the train each day to school. So that's how we did it. But I think it is quite hard for people.

00:52:32.700 - 00:52:49.500

And I and that's why I think, you know, to some extent, it's still the case that although women, you know, there are equal numbers of women now in training, it's still generally the case. There's not quite so many young women. And I think there's still some worry.

00:52:49.500 - 00:53:07.960

And Watch will be saying this, that, you know, there's still not that many women getting the posts in the big parish churches, particularly ones in the evangelical tradition. And, you know, there's. Oh, look. I might go out and just get that.

00:53:08.440 - 00:53:10.380

Do you want to pause it?