00:00:00.000 - 00:00:31.840

Just to kick off then, could you tell me a bit about your background? Well, I was born 71 and a half years ago in wartime Stockport, well on the edge of Stockport, and so my childhood was very much in the aftermath of the Second World War with the austerity and the sense of thinking of people wanting to conserve the best from the past, they weren't

00:00:31.840 - 00:01:02.880

experimental times, had to wait for the 60s for that. So I was brought up in a fairly conventional but not too tight Methodist home, my father was a Methodist local preacher in those days, but there was always the Anglican church around as well from both mothers and one of the grandfathers of my grandparents' generation, so we were

00:01:02.880 - 00:01:21.460

a mixture, but I gather when my parents got married they decided they'd go to the local Anglican church, the local Methodist one, and the Anglicans were a bit too high church for my father, and the Methodists had got a young minister and lots of young couples and families and stuff, so that provided the context really for them.

00:01:22.920 - 00:01:45.840

And so I was part of the life of Dalston Lane Methodist Church in my childhood, and then at the age of 13 we moved further out, my mother was sort of, I always liked to think she was upwardly mobile but never quite had the wheels to get where she would have liked, but we went slightly upmarket and we moved out to a village called Disley, which is on

00:01:45.840 - 00:02:13.740

the A6 between Stockport and Buxton, going up into Derbyshire, though we were still just about in Cheshire there, but we weren't far from Derbyshire or Lancashire or even Yorkshire actually, just in that little part. So my teenage memories are of a village, a large village but of a village Methodist chapel, which allowed its youngsters to play havoc

00:02:13.740 - 00:02:45.940

with the place from time to time, various things that we put on at Christmas and concerts and things. I think three or four of us had aspirations in dramatic and musical directions. And yeah, I went to the same school, apart from the first two years, I went to an infant school called Limefield, which was about,

00:02:46.440 - 00:03:13.000

probably about ten minutes walk from home, and I can't remember precisely now. And then I went, clever clogs here, went to Stockport Grammar School, which was one of the independent grant-aided grammar schools of the time. And I was there from the age of 7 till 18, which was a huge sense of stability, because I could, you know, though we moved I could still

00:03:13.000 - 00:03:52.540

get to the school. And I suppose little by little during that time my favourite subjects were Geography and English. And it would have been French or History, but the mix at that time meant that I did my A-levels in English and, excuse me, English and Geography and History. What I remember from my, do you want me to talk about what I might remember

00:03:52.540 - 00:04:20.740

from my childhood about sexuality? My parents always wanted to have four children, so they told me when I was growing up later on, but they only had me and my brother, and he only lived three days, and I never saw him, because, you know, children were kept away from events like that. I don't think I ever, I've no memories of going to any of my grandparents' funerals

00:04:20.740 - 00:04:46.280

for example, and I didn't go to Andrew's. But he was born in 1951, I was 42, so there was obviously some difficulty that either my father had or my mother, and it's the kind of question you never ask your parents, because you can't actually imagine them having sex anyway, so it's very hard to ask, you know, who's got the problem? It just never occurred

00:04:46.280 - 00:05:21.560

to ask. So I didn't grow up with siblings, and neither did any of my cousins. We were, my mother had three sisters, my father had one brother, they all married and they all produced, you know, one child, and we're all still alive just about, the cousins, and I've got, what is it, one, two, two male cousins, and two female cousins, is that right? John,

00:05:23.000 - 00:05:57.060

or no, it's John, Pat and Kay on my mother's side, and Judy on my father's side, so it's three female cousins and one male cousin. So we never, I've never lived in a kind of big family environment, you know, and I think we were all affected by, presumably, by being brought up alone and the pluses and minuses of that. I think, quite early on, I came to

00:05:57.060 - 00:06:19.540

the conclusion that my parents really weren't going to be much use to me. I don't mean for the basics and for the love and care and, you know, help to do whatever I decided I was wanting to do, they were brilliant at that, but they lived in a different world from mine and I somehow knew that early on. It was partly, that was partly a religious

00:06:19.540 - 00:06:46.960

thing and partly a sexual thing and they probably got very mixed up at that age because you really haven't distinguished between them. And I've got two pertinent memories perhaps from by the time I was seven. One, I'd won a prize at my infant school and had to go up onto the platform to receive whatever it was, and the prize giver was a local retired

00:06:46.960 - 00:07:08.120

colonel and I was very shy in those days and I had my arm in a sling because my best buddy's dog, we must have been playing too fiercely with it, and it bit me on the wrist and I can still have the scar to this day. And so of course he asked me what it was and I just whispered really, he said, a dog bit me. And the headteacher then told me, you'll

00:07:08.120 - 00:07:27.420

have to speak a bit louder so he can hear you. So I shouted at the top of my voice, a dog bit me, well of course there's great hilarity in the, because the colonel shot backwards and nearly fell off the platform. But I can remember to this day walking down the steps off that platform with a secret smile and I thought, oh, that's interesting,

00:07:27.560 - 00:07:50.720

there's a world out there, I can make people laugh. It didn't make me want to be a stand-up comic but it was a significant moment, you know. And I suppose where the sexuality is concerned, I've often wondered where did it start, where was I first awareness? And of course I couldn't put a name to it, but on holiday at the age of seven, I think I was

00:07:50.720 - 00:08:13.580

seven, there was another lad I got very friendly with, we played Pudding on the Pudding Green at Filey, and it was Leonard's legs that fascinated me. And I couldn't say anything more than that as it were, but unfortunately Leonard and I never met again. It's a nice bit of alliteration, that Leonard's legs.

00:08:14.580 - 00:08:57.060

Yeah, yeah. So that's a little bit of my early years. So as things kind of developed, how did your faith sort of develop from those early roots? I suppose it was, I'm one of those that inherited it. And I've never been a serious doubter, but I've been a serious explorer, and not taking for granted much of what was said.

00:08:58.260 - 00:09:29.080

Having said that, it was a Westerlian tradition of a Methodist chapel. And my father was what I would call a sort of open, conservative character, who would change his mind, but he would take five years to do it. Which he did on the Geisha when I came out, and I gave him full marks for that. Sundays were very much Sunday morning service and Sunday school

00:09:29.080 - 00:09:59.160

in my young days. But I've no recollection of getting, I got fed up sometimes and bored, but my main recollection is that I was learning quite a lot, and quite good at doing that. So it wasn't a huge strain. And when I was younger, but occasionally there was even a sermon I might hear, which I thought was quite good, that was before I was thirteen.

00:10:00.320 - 00:10:20.000

The village church in Disley, the chapel in Disley was a bit different, it wasn't as good. And I can remember complaining on a number of occasions, I'm not going again, and all that sort of stuff. And the one thing I think that they were very misguided about was that because they presented us youngsters, really from the age of fourteen, with the pledge that we would not drink alcohol,

00:10:20.240 - 00:10:43.080

so it was still part of the lingering temperance movement in those days. And being one more conformist in those days and not wanting to create trouble, I signed it. I tore it up about the age of eighteen, finally, but it took me until I was about twenty-three to be able to go into a pub without feeling rather guilty about it.

00:10:44.360 - 00:11:03.980

And that was the strongest moral message. Sex was stronger as a message because it didn't exist. So therefore it was actually operating more powerfully. And I'd worked out by the age of about eleven that my mother and father must have had sex twice, because I'd been born and my brother had been born.

00:11:04.820 - 00:11:24.440

And I thought a friend of mine who was one of a family of five or six, their parents were gross because they'd done it six times. Because birds and bees, that's what automatically happens. And you see a total, of course, total failure in terms of communicating anything accurate

00:11:24.440 - 00:11:44.800

about biology and about reproduction or anything about what you do with the power you have when your body starts to leak in a way it hadn't done before. And great embarrassment about all that. My great-aunt Gladys was living with my mother and father at the time.

00:11:45.400 - 00:12:00.420

When my father did take me out for the walk, which was six months too late, I had to pretend that I knew what he was saying. I didn't know what he was saying, how interesting, etc. And I remember my aunt Gladys was a bit more outspoken than my mum and dad.

00:12:00.520 - 00:12:10.480

Thank God he's got that off his chest. He'd been worried about it for three months. Yeah, so that was... And I suppose it was...

00:12:12.700 - 00:12:29.140

If you ask my father, he would have been a One Nation Tory. If you ask my mother, she would have been a fairly centred Labour. So I went Lib really, just out of that. In a way, I've always been, in my politics, fairly central.

00:12:30.840 - 00:12:51.800

But not actively involved in party politics. So at that stage, when your father spoke to you about sex and sexuality, did you have a clarity about your own sexuality? No, no, no.

00:12:52.520 - 00:13:11.380

I suppose by the time I was about 16, which would have been about 1958, I knew that there was something taboo going on inside me that I couldn't talk about. At that point, it was still illegal, wasn't it? Yes. The Wolfenden Report came out in 1958.

00:13:11.380 - 00:13:28.520

And it was the beginnings of literature. And what I can't remember is this particular event, whether I was still at school or it was in university vacation time, but I would be something, you know, late teens or early twenties.

00:13:29.720 - 00:13:52.240

And there was a scandal involving the Duke of Bewley and RAF officers and one or two other laypersons down in Hampshire, which got a lot of press publicity. But it was clearly an embarrassment to most people. And this was something rather sort of disgusting.

00:13:52.740 - 00:14:05.960

It was bad and we didn't really want to talk about it. And it was right that they should serve a prison sentence and all that, which didn't do my morale much good. But it did mean I couldn't talk about it.

00:14:10.800 - 00:14:36.020

And the incident, one of the guys who was in prison at that time was called Peter Wildblood. And he wrote a book called Against the Law, recounting that particular story. And I went to Manchester Central Library, because that's the nearest big library from where we were, and looked it up on the catalogue and it said, Not on Open Shelves.

00:14:37.480 - 00:14:54.100

This could have been 1959, 1960, 61, something like that. OK, I have to go and fill out a slip, which I do, and hand it over slightly looking to the left and right. And I'm told to go and find a seat. I said, well, I'll go and sit over there, which seemed to be not many people around,

00:14:54.860 - 00:15:17.640

and we'll bring it to you. Which they did, and I just avowed it in one sitting, because I wasn't going to go back. And again, it was not a particularly encouraging piece of work. But at least it was somebody else who clearly had the same kind of feelings that I was beginning to have.

00:15:19.060 - 00:15:43.460

And I did try flirting with one or two of my schoolmates, but nothing ever came to it. That was after puberty had struck. I must have made the wrong choices, that's all. But then I went to Cambridge University.

00:15:44.660 - 00:16:05.220

And that opened up in all sorts of ways. In terms of my faith, it got a huge boost, because here were people talking intelligently in lively ways. And it was the early 60s by then. I was in one of the queues for the first edition of Honest to God.

00:16:06.360 - 00:16:23.980

The last time I've seen a queue outside a religious bookshop. But there was a ferment. And I learned a lot from the leading figures of the time. John Robinson, and through him people like Paul Tillich and Dietrich Bonhoeffer.

00:16:25.980 - 00:16:40.040

And Harry Williams in Cambridge, and other people in Cambridge too. And that was all very exciting. And I think that nudged me towards vocation. I'd gone up to read geography.

00:16:41.100 - 00:16:53.960

But at Cambridge, I don't know, you may not know. But as long as you get a part one in one subject, you can do a part two in another different subject. So after two years I switched from geography to theology. Wow, that's quite a switch.

00:16:54.420 - 00:17:16.520

Henceforth known as a geologian. And amongst that ferment, one was moving quite definitely from Methodism to Anglicanism. I sort of caught a vision of a wider and more generous home, I think. I mean, I wouldn't have got that everywhere in the country.

00:17:16.640 - 00:17:37.420

But you certainly did in Cambridge. And the music as well that was performed by the choirs. When you say wider and more generous home, what do you mean by that? Well, I think I experienced Methodism however warm people were personally and on your side.

00:17:38.000 - 00:18:05.180

It felt a quite small house to live in, faith-wise. There was nothing desperately wrong with it, but it felt restrictive. I suspect one of my motives was not particularly a good one. Because I saw that being a member of the Church of England was probably a little bit more exciting.

00:18:06.080 - 00:18:27.640

And might make for a more interesting ministry. That was my snobbishness coming out. So I did a switch anyway and was confirmed and put my name forward for ordination in that period. And fell hook, line and sinker from one of my fellow students in the college.

00:18:28.180 - 00:18:47.900

Who didn't reciprocate in affection, but did fitfully in lust. Which just confused the hell out of both of us really, I think. It's so embarrassing looking back at those sorts of teenage... Well, and that's not true, there was nobody to talk with.

00:18:49.140 - 00:19:07.320

Hugh Montefiore, he has a name too from the theological law, no reason why it should be. He was the dean of my college and taught me, he directed my studies in theology. But he was a very approachable human being. And he was very matter of fact when I went to talk about him, about my sexuality.

00:19:08.020 - 00:19:30.980

He put me on to honour to other people. And I think that's probably when I began to realise that might be more to be said about this. Than what I had gleaned in my teenage years. That perhaps the three baddies, bad words, criminal, immoral and neurotic.

00:19:32.800 - 00:19:55.460

Didn't necessarily hold. How could they if 4% of the population, which was a rough guess at that time. And of course the Wolfenden report about changing the law about consensual, sex and private. Which meant if you were in a bedroom in a house it had to be behind a locked door for it to be not illegal.

00:19:56.920 - 00:20:12.500

So it was a step in the right direction but slightly minimal. I don't remember any court case based on that but anyway. It was done with some reluctance. And that was, you see that wasn't passed until 1967.

00:20:12.500 - 00:20:38.580

By which time I'd graduated and dallied a little. And had been over in Nigeria for a year with a voluntary service overseas. Where I suspect there could have been more sexual activity than I actually took part in. Because young Nigerian males wouldn't have thought twice about it.

00:20:40.660 - 00:20:58.740

As long as it was kept secret. And there was no question at that time about being public in any way. And that was a long way in the future. And there was a rather handsome American Peace Corps volunteer whom I did try and seduce but didn't get very far.

00:21:00.720 - 00:21:15.040

And so I didn't really have a great swinging time in the sextet. Contrary to what lots of people think we did, we didn't. Most of us. It's interesting that obviously it was a decade of great change.

00:21:16.080 - 00:21:39.060

And I'm just curious as to what you think or where you think the change came from. What was the energy behind it? Why was this changing? Why was there a partial decriminalisation of homosexuality in 1967?

00:21:40.280 - 00:21:57.480

Where did that come from? I suspect the pot was bubbling away underneath the surface in the immediate post-war period. But it had to bubble over and find a voice. It doesn't quite work, does it?

00:21:57.480 - 00:22:07.440

You know what I mean? And for me that was the week that was on television. Here was satire. Never seen satire.

00:22:07.520 - 00:22:20.800

How daring. And seeing Beyond the Fringe before it even went to the Edinburgh Festival. And that with a young Alan Bennett and Jonathan Miller and Peter Cook and Dundee Moore. I can just reel off the names to this day.

00:22:21.780 - 00:22:39.960

And went with a bunch of friends to see that. And that again was a complete eye-opener. And there was this theological ferment going on. I think the sexual stuff had to wait until the 70s because it was trailing behind.

00:22:40.940 - 00:23:08.320

Though it was quite clear that the rather severe no sex before marriage, don't go below the belt before the wedding night stuff, was probably practiced by more people than were pretending otherwise. But it was certainly a time when people were beginning to approach sex and relationships differently.

00:23:11.460 - 00:23:22.100

But I think it was the 70s. We had to wait for that to happen in any significant public way. Because that's when the organisation started. Not entirely.

00:23:23.140 - 00:23:43.700

We owe debts to people like Anthony Gray and the Northwest Homosexual Law Reform Committee. Which led up to the founding of the campaign for homosexual equality. And the gay liberation stuff of the mid-70s. Of which LGCM was a part.

00:23:44.880 - 00:24:08.520

GCM at first. And so I came back from Nigeria to Theological College at Lincoln for training for ordination. And the church of course was as hopeless then as it is now. In actually trying to help people reconcile and live well.

00:24:09.640 - 00:24:30.600

Both a religious role in the community. With an unusual sexual orientation. And nobody really quite knew how to cope with that. And I think the church moved pretty swiftly away from criminal and neurotic categories.

00:24:31.420 - 00:25:03.120

But the moral one of course was the one where it stuck. But the more aware knew that a certain latitude had to be given which wouldn't have been given 20 years ago. Because it seemed as though something was afoot. Which was rather different from casual sex by students when the opportunity arose.

00:25:07.460 - 00:25:36.420

People began to realise that it was a much more important issue. Than, oh you'll grow out of it and you'll get married. Which was the classic line at that time. At what point did you then start having a dialogue with your family and your parents about your sexuality?

00:25:37.240 - 00:25:57.200

It wasn't with them that I had the conversations. It was in around about 73. 72 or 73 from Lincoln. And then 74 I went back to my college in Cambridge as a college chaplain.

00:25:58.960 - 00:26:25.980

And it was through going to meetings of the campaign for homosexual equality, local ones. And then later in the decade when GCM got going it had quite an active network of local groups in its early years. And it was a small organisation called Reach. I don't know if you've heard of Reach.

00:26:27.780 - 00:26:43.600

And I'm trying to, oh Dennis Nadine was the guy who initiated it. But he wanted all power to himself. And this clearly was going to be a movement where power was being shared. And it was going to be much bigger than Reach.

00:26:43.720 - 00:27:09.860

And that's when GCM started in April 1976. And I think a lot of us pretended looking back that we'd got it all sorted out for ourselves. But we were actually doing a lot of the sorting out through the politics rather than the personal. They were seeing that the two were connected.

00:27:13.500 - 00:27:35.400

But I think there was a lot of exploration going on. Some good, some not so good. I think probably human beings, including myself, hurt and were hurt more than they would like to admit. But at the same time recognising that we were stumbling towards something we weren't quite sure what we were stumbling towards.

00:27:35.980 - 00:27:58.720

I don't think anybody would have dreamt of thinking of a phrase like gay marriage at that time. And so we made mistakes, inevitably. But at the same time developed the arguments. And so it was that setting where I did my kind of working out.

00:27:59.800 - 00:28:27.540

And my coming out was with the launch of GCM. And there was a religious television series called Everyman in those days. And Peter France, I think, he wanted to do a programme on the issue. And there was a Metropolitan Community Church guy, Troy Perry, founded that in the States.

00:28:28.820 - 00:28:46.020

And had written a book, The Laws of My Shepherd, and He Knows I'm Gay. And that was the title of the programme. And I was asked to appear on it, which I did. Which was more of a change moment in my life than I probably realised at the time.

00:28:46.500 - 00:29:09.120

Because it wasn't the most prudent career move in the Church of England in the mid-70s. It still wouldn't be in the mid-teens of 40 years on, unfortunately. So that was a big moment of change for me. And I was involved. I think I was...

00:29:09.580 - 00:29:22.600

A piece of paper's got it somewhere. For the first couple of years I was the first honorary secretary of the movement. Before it got too big as a volunteer thing to do. I was on the committee for quite a few more years.

00:29:23.100 - 00:29:35.980

And had responsibility for the efforts we were trying to make. In terms of befriending and counselling work. And then my life moved on. Because I'd never felt it to be...

00:29:35.980 - 00:29:50.000

I'd never felt a kind of one-issue person. And I did think seriously of applying for the job of what I think we called general secretary at that time. Which would have given me an income. And I think I probably would have got it.

00:29:52.140 - 00:30:09.000

But it was... No, I'd get sick on an empty stomach if I just got this to talk and think about all day. That's not me. So I then kind of followed...

00:30:09.720 - 00:30:24.940

Never lost touch with the Church. I've always been a bona fide in whichever diocese I've lived. Though not without controversy. At times when I thought it was important to say something or do something.

00:30:28.440 - 00:30:39.820

And that was fine. I worked on counselling skills. And became an accredited counsellor. So I knew I could earn my keep if I needed to.

00:30:40.600 - 00:30:49.860

But I was much more... I don't say freelance. But I would say I was much more free range. Probably from 1970...

00:30:50.580 - 00:30:59.860

Certainly from... Well, not from 1977. Because I still had two half-time jobs. Paid jobs in the Church of England and the Diocese of St Albans.

00:31:00.980 - 00:31:20.900

Robert Runcie was the bishop then. And he was playing the absolutely typical English establishment game of... You give me room to manoeuvre and I'll give you room to manoeuvre. And which I said, yes, I'll go along with that so far.

00:31:21.000 - 00:31:33.520

But it doesn't resolve the questions. Which he had to agree it didn't. But it was a way of surviving for a bit longer. And then I became more free range in the latter years.

00:31:33.520 - 00:31:46.240

Until my very last appointment. Which was as priest in charge of the parish of Aberdown at the end of the peninsula here. So I did actually make vicar in the end. Just for three and a half years.

00:31:47.860 - 00:32:03.220

So just thinking about... You mentioned questions there. On a personal level... How did you sort of resolve or harmonise, if you like...

00:32:05.680 - 00:32:20.460

Your faith and your sexuality? And were there any particular questions? Or did it just fall into place for you and make sense? Well, I guess there are two things.

00:32:20.840 - 00:32:34.360

There's what you learn through experience. First, which I learnt a lot. And became convinced that this was good. I couldn't see anything wrong.

00:32:36.960 - 00:32:56.780

I think it took me longer to come back to the notion... That most of us would like to find a person who is central to our lives for the rest of our lives. And I think I go along with that now. But sometimes you have to make do with less than that.

00:33:04.540 - 00:33:21.280

I think... Once I'd come to a particular conclusion about sexuality as a whole... That was my way in. I thought, I want to write some things about sexuality which cover the whole spectrum.

00:33:23.260 - 00:33:40.300

Because I didn't feel that the relationship between sex and sexuality... The relationships I was observing and one or two relationships I had... Seemed all that different from those of my heterosexual friends. And when, of course, I realised...

00:33:40.300 - 00:34:01.160

That the first century had a very primitive view of the processes of reproduction... And believed that the entire new human being was contained in the male seed... And the mother was there as the receptacle and the producer of the... But it was...

00:34:02.700 - 00:34:19.420

The man had the complete... That explains a whole lot of theology as well and gender divisions and roles. If that's your biology, that's what you're going to think. But once you realise it's half and half in terms of chromosomes, etc.

00:34:21.200 - 00:34:37.920

You then recognise that it's out of a relationship of two people. And it seemed to me that the two factors which are constant... For any couple where it really works long term... Is that you have a mutual attraction for each other.

00:34:38.540 - 00:34:54.780

Which may start sexual, it may continue sexual, it may broaden out into deep affection... It may bring a lifelong commitment. But that's one dynamic of two people being attracted to each other... And growing through that attraction.

00:34:56.280 - 00:35:14.060

But the other is... That's the union. The other is the creativity it brings. And because so much of the conversations were about procreation... And what was the moral context for bringing up children and all that...

00:35:14.060 - 00:35:34.060

I don't think it's sunk in totally yet. But once I'd seen it... I've never wavered from this. And I've had this view for 30 years, it must be now easily. That if I look at any relationship that's lasted and ask why is it working...

00:35:35.720 - 00:35:55.200

There may be sameness in terms of the genders... Or there may be a difference in terms of the genders. But it's when each helps the other to be singly or mutually creative. You know, I mean that classic is...

00:35:55.200 - 00:36:15.800

A couple get together and they go off and run an antique shop or a breakfast or whatever... And find themselves flourishing as human beings... In a way they never had done or were ever able to do alone. And so I'm... My line is I'm very pro-creativity.

00:36:18.100 - 00:36:33.140

And obviously the biological and social, political norm... Is bound to be heterosexual marriage, call it what you will... And the procreation and care of children. That's what most people are going to go for.

00:36:33.140 - 00:36:52.120

It doesn't seem to be lessening. Whether the conditions are particularly good at the moment, I don't know. But a lot is changing. But because I'd witnessed that and experienced it myself in the gay context...

00:36:52.120 - 00:37:08.360

I thought well actually there isn't really any deeply significant difference here. And what we've got to look at is how we use power in our close relationships. That's the problem. Because if you think of the things that were easy to say no to...

00:37:08.360 - 00:37:24.460

Like violence, rape, abuse of children or whatever... It's obvious, it's a misuse of adult power over against those who are not as strong... Or much younger and not ready. And that's just as common heterosexually as it is homosexually.

00:37:25.560 - 00:37:44.620

And in those issues that's where I would locate an ethic. And I've not seen anything that I think has advanced that position. And I've not seen any critique which has knocked it for six where I'm concerned. So that's what I hold to really.

00:37:45.760 - 00:37:58.700

And why I stopped writing about it some years ago. I've said all I've got to say. And they're in the three books. Good Fruits, Quiverful...

00:38:00.480 - 00:38:09.800

No, there are four. Pleasure, Pain and Passion. And The Service of My Love which is a handbook. I call it the Blessings of Civil Partnerships.

00:38:11.440 - 00:38:40.520

But that's got around quite a bit. So the other contribution professionally was liturgical and pastoral. So by taking this kind of holistic view it makes sense. And it's something that is acceptable and permissible before God.

00:38:41.320 - 00:39:12.680

And I think families and communities recognize it. I've done a number of weddings where my sense and clearly from the guest's sense is this is not going to work. But I'm legally bound to do it. And then gay blessings I've done where I've been pretty sure from the beginning that it was going to work.

00:39:13.520 - 00:39:31.200

And in a sense it's the other way around. And so again it didn't feel to me to be any huge difference. I'm trying to remember his name. He's still with us. I think he's retired now.

00:39:31.420 - 00:39:46.600

He was a chaplain and psychotherapist at the Littlemore Hospital outside Oxford. Oh dear. They said it would get like this when you're 70. What's his name?

00:39:48.980 - 00:40:01.080

I can't remember at the moment. It may come back to me. Pop it in the subconscious for 10 minutes. He had one consultation of the endless consultations I've been at over the years.

00:40:02.840 - 00:40:26.140

He made a very illuminating point. He said I think every good relationship is both heterosexual and homosexual. In this regard is that people need to have enough sameness in terms of what they recognize in each other. Their values, their interests, whatever.

00:40:27.140 - 00:40:51.040

Enough ground base to make enough conversation possible. Put it at the lowest. When the relationship really is creative there's always a spark of difference. And you can see it in elderly gay men who are still being bitchy with each other after 40 years.

00:40:51.380 - 00:41:06.280

Like a program on television recently. They've become very comfortable as a kind of Darby and Joan couple. Which you could recognize amongst your acquaintance. A man and a woman who are in their 70s.

00:41:06.460 - 00:41:24.360

And they've actually even grown to look like each other. Where there are others who sparkle and have often gone in their different directions but keep the friendship going. Where you feel that once the kids have left home they've each discovered new paths. And they've each helped the other in that exploration.

00:41:25.100 - 00:41:38.240

Sometimes they've formed a divorce. Sometimes they've kept going. There's one couple I read of that kept August completely free of the diary for each other. And that was their primary relationship and they kept it going by August.

00:41:41.100 - 00:42:01.820

Because they were both busy with international organizations. And that was the way that caused Lee's frustration. It's interesting, isn't it, that creativity is often created by tension. Yeah, there's got to be some.

00:42:02.200 - 00:42:17.960

But not too much. Again, not too much sameness and not too much difference. Because then you'd fall into all sorts of traps. No, his name won't come to me.

00:42:17.960 - 00:43:02.140

Never mind. So you worked this out and integrated your faith and your sexuality through taking this view of how relationships, the quality of relationships and how they work. Being comfortable yourself and being reconciled is one thing. But how then do you move in the world around you and the attitudes of people towards you and so on?

00:43:02.480 - 00:43:27.720

Tell me a bit about that. Well, you may get the opportunity to say things on radio or television or to somebody writing oral history. If you've got the gift of the gab a bit and you're in public life. So that's one way.

00:43:30.020 - 00:43:43.680

And being on television. Oh, that's, by the way, when my parents had to know. And I wrote to quite a lot of people saying, this will probably be interesting news at the very least. You might want to watch this program on Sunday evening.

00:43:44.540 - 00:44:04.800

And I only got two bad replies. Yes, this is April 1976. I think the kind of conversation that you can have sometimes with people. I'll give you one example of this.

00:44:04.960 - 00:44:27.500

I was giving a talk at a clergy conference, Anglican, I think it was Diocese of Gloucester, at the conference center at Swanwick in Derbyshire. So it was a long time back now, years back. That was about prayer, it wasn't about sexuality. But as I was doing publishing stuff at the time, I went everywhere with brown boxes in the back of a car.

00:44:28.620 - 00:44:44.300

And it was a very profitable evening, actually, that one. And somebody came up to me and said, oh, good fruits, interesting. Oh, I'll buy this. I don't think I'll agree with it. And so I said, oh, tell me why not.

00:44:45.820 - 00:45:05.960

So we started a fairly civilized conversation in this bookstore room. And I began to be aware that people were coming in and listening in on it. And I thought, I don't know who this character is, but he is obviously of some stature in the Diocese of Gloucester. Which immediately made me feel a bit nervous.

00:45:07.720 - 00:45:24.680

But we talked fairly, as I argued, back and forth. And then other things were beginning to happen and people were beginning to drift away. And he said, try and get to be as reconciling as possible. I don't think we fall that far apart, really.

00:45:26.580 - 00:45:40.200

I said, well, on this particular issue, we are considerably. Because for a start, it affects the whole of my life. Whereas it only affects part of your life. As somebody who thinks it's an issue that has to be tackled.

00:45:40.200 - 00:46:01.360

But you're not affected personally by it. And I said, I know that if I had the influence and thought it worth the while. I would do my best to make sure you were not elected to the General Synod of the Church of England. And you would do your best to make sure that I was at least unfrogged and not excommunicated.

00:46:01.880 - 00:46:15.960

If we each followed the logic of our arguments. And I could hear the cheer from around, silently. As though, oh thank goodness, somebody has pointed it out to him at last. You know, of the lack of balance.

00:46:18.180 - 00:46:38.720

And I still think to this day, if you can have that kind of conversation. It doesn't really matter what the other person says to you. What does matter is how you handle what they say. And those on the edge listening in.

00:46:40.020 - 00:46:58.380

If you can keep your cool. And also if you can tell something of your story and be a bit vulnerable. You'll win the day. And I suppose I picked up various techniques and tactics over the years for conversations about these things.

00:47:00.760 - 00:47:17.140

Without doing a great deal in public and certainly not in recent years. But I think that was just one way of making a contribution. And the writing of course was pertinent there. I know a lot of people read the stuff I wrote.

00:47:18.220 - 00:47:43.440

And spoke at a number of conferences in those early years. But in the end, as I say, I'm not a one issue person. I'm interested in far too many other things. But the last occasion when I did anything public and got notoriety for it.

00:47:43.940 - 00:47:57.140

Was when I was down at Vicar of Aberdaron. And this is a very interesting sequence. Because this is only a few years ago. Probably in 2009.

00:48:01.000 - 00:48:16.880

It was my second church council meeting. And I genuinely wanted to bring up an issue which I thought I needed to do it. But it also would test the water. And so I put an item introduced by Vicar.

00:48:17.880 - 00:48:40.620

The remarriage of divorced couples in church. And I said, this isn't something I want to bring to a vote this evening. But I would like your guidance in the degree of discretion you would give me. In saying yes or no to a couple who are second marriage.

00:48:42.300 - 00:48:56.220

Well, nobody seemed to have any trouble with that at all. The great thing about Aurora there is everybody's got a skeleton in the cupboard. Either they brought it with them from the city. Or it's been in the tribe's cupboard for generations.

00:48:58.200 - 00:49:15.040

And then there's a former cop in the congregation. And I know he was testing me out. Because he said, well, if we're happy with that. What about the blessing of lesbian and gay relationships?

00:49:17.340 - 00:49:31.580

And he was very interested in how I'd respond to that. And I said, well, you know my own position on this. But I did not think it was a position that was. The timing was right to raise it as a separate issue.

00:49:32.400 - 00:49:47.060

And genuinely tonight it's about what discretion you give me. But is it something you want to talk about now? Or should we put it on the agenda sometime? Or do you want to include it?

00:49:47.820 - 00:50:01.900

Because by this time a resolution was getting formed. Do you want to add it to this resolution? And sufficient people did to put it to the vote. And the whole package went through Nemcon.

00:50:03.760 - 00:50:24.720

In a rural Anglican congregation. In the last village before Ireland. I think I said it might cause a bit of bother. But I wasn't going to say I wouldn't do it.

00:50:26.260 - 00:50:43.320

And I got the opportunity only a couple of months later to women. Who had a cottage just outside the parish boundary. But one of whom had had childhood holidays in the area. And so they kind of ticked the boxes of somebody who was close enough to the church, etc.

00:50:45.720 - 00:50:57.400

And so I went ahead. Hoping it wouldn't leak. Which was a vain hope, of course. But it was certainly one of the happiest days of my ministry.

00:50:57.640 - 00:51:06.300

One of my life, actually. That we'd actually been able to do this. And a good number of the congregation came. And there were about 80 people in the church.

00:51:06.440 - 00:51:18.200

Which made it fairly full. And then it got leaked in a rather distorted way. Because there was no bishop at the time. We were between bishops.

00:51:19.920 - 00:51:33.200

The complaint went straight to the Archbishop of Wales, Barry Morgan. Who's actually quite pro-gay. And does a lot of work behind the scenes internationally. But when he has to bring in the rule book as a bishop.

00:51:33.260 - 00:51:47.200

He's hopeless at managing it. He doesn't get it right. It was basically a rebuke. And if you do it again, it would be tribunal.

00:51:49.140 - 00:52:03.920

And he said, that would be a pity. It would be a sad end to your ministry. And I forebore and didn't say that it actually would be a great, triumphant, marvellous end. In fact, because I wanted to keep all my cards to my chest.

00:52:04.660 - 00:52:13.720

And I said, well look, I know the game. And I think I use the word game. I know what you've got to do. And I don't think any of the less of you for it.

00:52:14.020 - 00:52:25.440

I know I was sticking my neck out. And it was against the rules. But I won't give you any indication. Whether if another couple come to me, how I will respond.

00:52:25.540 - 00:52:34.900

I will treat that on its own merits. If and when the time comes. Well, nobody else did actually since then. So it all fell away.

00:52:34.980 - 00:52:48.080

But I was on the radio for that. It was in the press and everything else. But there was no problem locally. You see, the next day, what the landlord of one of the pubs said to me,

00:52:48.140 - 00:52:57.080

was that a wedding yesterday? He was just curious. It obviously hadn't struck him as quite the norm. And yet it felt like it.

00:52:57.480 - 00:53:07.800

I said, well, not precisely. It was Helen and Lisa and they'd just had a legal ceremony as a civil partnership. And it was a service of blessing in the church. Oh, well, that explains it.

00:53:08.100 - 00:53:21.740

And he was quite happy then. And then I went into one of the other village shops with Sean. No, Sean. I always get Sean and Sean mixed up.

00:53:23.540 - 00:53:27.340

Sean. That's the girl's woman's name, isn't it? Sean. Was it Sean?

00:53:27.860 - 00:53:30.400

Sean. I knew I'd get it wrong. Sean. Yeah, Sean.

00:53:31.040 - 00:53:42.160

And she had rather pursed lips. And I knew she was sort of lapse chapelle. And I thought, I wonder what's coming here. But actually, the only thing that she was a little annoyed,

00:53:42.280 - 00:53:50.980

was that she hadn't heard first. So could spread the news before anybody got to her rather late. And she was a bit miffed by that. She had no problem.

00:53:53.940 - 00:54:10.400

And that convinced me about, it took us back to one of the other things you asked, but I think the more the issue can be about people and context and the way they live, it applies to any rural area.

00:54:10.520 - 00:54:29.500

But the people who come in from outside to Aberdaron, who get on, are those who give something to the life of the community. And they get stuck in. And then if something controversial comes up, it's handled.

00:54:30.560 - 00:54:47.280

If you keep yourself to yourself, then, well, it's your own fault if it doesn't work out really. And that's clear now in families, it's clear in neighbourhoods, it's clear in offices and banks and even the armed forces and whatever.

00:54:47.280 - 00:55:17.360

But basically it's a non-issue. It's interesting, isn't it, that when people see gay people, LGBTQ people as people, rather than somehow creating a function out of them or an identity out of their sexuality or gender identity,

00:55:18.660 - 00:55:36.420

it ceases to become an issue. And just observing what's happening in places like Nigeria and Ghana and so on, the very opposite is happening, it seems there. But yeah, just an observation.

00:55:38.960 - 00:55:51.880

The countries in Africa that are having trouble are those who were evangelised by evangelical missionaries of the 19th century. That's how it got into the law book. You know, Ghana's all right, South Africa's all right.

00:55:54.780 - 00:56:15.260

And parts of East Africa are, but not all. Anything else? So thinking that you've talked very much about, or we've thought a bit about sort of your background and growing up

00:56:15.260 - 00:56:54.120

and your church background and your early interests and university, and we've talked a bit about your story of coming out, just thinking about the impact that your work has had on others and also, why did you do this work?

00:56:54.300 - 00:57:13.800

Why have you written? Why have you been a voice? It's almost impossible to answer either of those questions. I'm word smithery, as it were, is my craft. And I suppose over the years I've concentrated on liturgical language

00:57:13.800 - 00:57:36.780

and how Christianity connects with various issues like sexuality, ministry, healing, depression, and whatever. But again, being somebody who, I said to her the other day, you know, I'm not going to finish all the projects I've got on the go now.

00:57:37.500 - 00:57:48.240

There isn't time. But then I've come to terms with that, because if I lived to be 110, I would still have half a dozen unfinished projects, because that's who I am.

00:57:49.000 - 00:58:06.860

So there's always been something on the go, more than one thing. And there's three or four, possibly four manuscripts, books, whatever, lined up posthumously, because there isn't time to publish any of them before I'm likely to.

00:58:07.880 - 00:58:34.940

Leukemia is going to win, up to that level. It just fell into place, the writing. And I suppose it was being asked to give addresses and talks and things, and having a flair for that.

00:58:36.000 - 00:58:49.600

And every clergyman is an actor, manque. And it gives me the chance to be in the limelight and be a bit theatrical and try not to be too much over the top, too camp. That's not me either.

00:58:50.600 - 00:59:20.760

So that got fed and grew because of people hearing something as, oh, Jim would be good at so-and-so, where we're fixing up. So that's been part of my, probably from the last 30 years, which has extended to going for 20 years of that.

00:59:21.940 - 00:59:35.280

Every year, not quite every year, but most years, went and spent a month either in the States or in Australia or New Zealand and built up a kind of clientele reputation there. And that was all kind of word-of-mouth stuff.

00:59:36.320 - 00:59:47.540

And sold the books. And because there was a variety of things, things about prayer as well as about sex and ministry and the same, about depression and stuff,

00:59:49.900 - 01:00:03.200

people could go and look at a bookstall and not feel too embarrassed because there was a range of stuff. So it had a context. And I certainly was also in that period talking about all sorts of other things as well.

01:00:05.280 - 01:00:41.220

But the sexuality stuff was quite often part of it. It sounds to me that when you talk about a range of things, a range of topics, it's very much consistent with your understanding of sexuality. There being a range and therefore it's kind of a normal part,

01:00:42.520 - 01:01:04.860

an integrative part of being a human, if you like. And you're not defined by it. Not defined but also that you could... My dad actually, he came to one or two of the AGMs by the elderly CM

01:01:05.540 - 01:01:22.440

and listened to one or two of the addresses. And one was by John Boswell from the States on history. And he spoke very fast. And my father was a patient man but a slow thinker.

01:01:22.520 - 01:01:34.760

And I was, oh God, what's Dad thinking of this one? And I wasn't sitting in the same place as he was in the room. And I said, that was a bit fast, wasn't it, Dad? And he said, very good though, wasn't it? Very good.

01:01:37.260 - 01:01:51.820

And he was in there. And what helped him was meeting a variety of people, including some Methodists from his background which helped, you see. And again, I suppose, setting and context

01:01:51.820 - 01:02:06.400

and making links and connections the whole time. And I suppose that's true of the impact generally. I find it very hard to quantify the effect, though having acquired a terminal illness

01:02:06.400 - 01:02:18.380

which has given me three years of life still. And now the letters that I'm getting from people show that the influence has been much wider than I ever thought it had been.

01:02:19.260 - 01:02:32.900

Because as a writer, you know how many books have left your own office or a publisher's office. But that's the only facts you can get. It's almost impossible to get to know how many copies were sold,

01:02:33.500 - 01:02:45.160

how many were remaindered, how many were pulped, how many were given as presents and opened and never looked at again, how many were dipped into. We don't know that.

01:02:45.980 - 01:02:59.220

And writing is a fairly solo business. And you don't get the kind of feedback that you do if you're working with colleagues or you're in an office or in a parish or working in a factory

01:02:59.220 - 01:03:18.020

or a garage mechanic or whatever, of constant feedback from a limited circle. This is a scattered feedback which you occasionally hear about. And I had a letter yesterday, no, an email yesterday

01:03:18.020 - 01:03:38.000

from somebody I've not seen for 20 years or so. And obviously from what he said earlier in his life in two or three occasions, I was of great help to him. He's not gay, as it happens, but that's not particularly relevant.

01:03:40.080 - 01:03:52.700

And you forget these things. And now when I may have a few months left, it may be in a few weeks, it depends on how this retrocancer decides to polish me off

01:03:52.700 - 01:04:06.220

and polish itself off at the same time. Ah, the only way a cancer dies is if it takes you with it. It's a very curious thing. But, you know, so somebody said,

01:04:07.020 - 01:04:21.620

have you got anything arranged as a memorial service? I said, well, it's going to be a funeral, but I don't know what a memorial service is. So I kind of said to a number of other friends who know me well, this has been suggested, I don't kind of think,

01:04:22.240 - 01:04:32.800

oh yes, you must, there'll be lots of people who want to come. I found that very difficult to believe, you see. So I've handed it over to other people. It's not my affair.

01:04:33.440 - 01:04:44.100

As long as there are certain things they don't do, I'm quite happy. And the main thing is they must not push me in on a trolley. They must be carried, or I must be carried on shoulders. I hate trolleys, funerals.

01:04:45.640 - 01:05:03.640

So I said, that's the only way, if you do that, I shall haunt you. Otherwise, you know, do it for what you need, sort of thing. But it was this sense of, ah, the stuff has got around and touched more lives than I thought it had.

01:05:04.820 - 01:05:19.540

Because people are reluctant to write, and these things, especially when they don't come up to you personally. The interesting thing, I think, about writing is that you write something, the book does go to somebody,

01:05:19.540 - 01:05:34.520

they may read it, or they may put it on a bookshelf, but somebody else may pick it up ten years later and read it. They assimilate your words, your ideas, your sentiments, and then that's given out to somebody else.

01:05:34.780 - 01:05:53.100

And people can so easily get out of print stuff now, through Amazon and eBooks. There's even two or three of booklets of addresses I gave on eBooks. And there are one or two of books which are at a splendidly high price.

01:05:54.460 - 01:06:06.020

Though I shan't see any of that, but... Never mind. Others are for a penny, so I have to say that. Plus postage.

01:06:08.520 - 01:06:20.500

So I recognise the importance of the area you're asking about. I think it's very important, because it's how networks develop, how people communicate. But a lot of it is so difficult to assess,

01:06:21.380 - 01:06:40.980

because a lot of it is actually happening by word of mouth, and people conversing together in cafes and pubs and at work and in churches. And that's how the climate changes sufficiently. But in the end, the lawmakers catch up.

01:06:41.920 - 01:06:57.600

And in our culture, the parliament catches up, usually before the Church of England. It'll be the last spot. It'll get there. I won't say that, but it'll get there. It's interesting you should say that,

01:06:57.700 - 01:07:17.460

because I've always had this idea that often it's the law that changes, and then social attitudes catch up with the law. I think the one feeds the other, actually. But I think that...

01:07:20.240 - 01:07:34.380

I would agree that, for example, on race relations, when certain attitudes and behaviours were deemed unacceptable publicly, it didn't stop people being racist, but it stopped other people getting hurt.

01:07:36.880 - 01:07:54.560

And to that extent, there's a parallel, I think, with the sexual issues. But under that cover, a new generation then grows up, who actually sees that the changes of the law haven't gone far enough. But there is a momentum behind it then,

01:07:56.660 - 01:08:21.880

because nobody now in our society, unless they're totally observant, can say they don't know half a dozen gay couples, for example, or lesbian, in their family, at their church, at their place of work. For most people, it's, you know, what's the fuss about?

01:08:22.880 - 01:08:38.700

Which is actually an enormous shift from a schoolboy or a student of whenever I was, first of all, in Manchester Central Library, reading against the law, not available on the open shelves.

01:08:40.080 - 01:09:05.600

That's only 50 years ago. So things have changed quite rapidly. Where do you see, how do you see it progressing? I think there are a number of issues that are around at the moment

01:09:05.600 - 01:09:17.380

that are fronts for other issues. I don't think it's gay marriage that's the problem, it's marriage that's the problem, because we're very uncertain what meaning to give to it now in a very diverse society,

01:09:17.540 - 01:09:31.220

both in terms of culturally and religiously. I think at the moment, the Church of England is so nervous about getting women bishops wrong again that they don't want anything to other that's controversial.

01:09:31.920 - 01:09:43.700

So that's sorted. But that's all about, that's not especially about women, it's what do we need bishops for? And of course, bishops don't like trying to answer that question.

01:09:47.080 - 01:10:00.420

And by extension, what are clergy for? So institutions don't like those questions, so you find a relatively easy taboo, which still operates in a stigmatising way,

01:10:01.100 - 01:10:17.920

to deflect attention away from the bigger issues where there is a huge amount of controversy. And again, it comes down to the use of power. And the Roman Catholic Church is experiencing

01:10:17.920 - 01:10:29.840

a rather extraordinary change of atmosphere, where the Pope understands power, but uses it in a very different way. Couldn't be more streetwise, I don't think,

01:10:29.900 - 01:10:46.720

than he, certainly no academic Benedict. Benedict couldn't handle the politics, he wasn't streetwise enough, like Rome Williams. And, you know, so who knows?

01:10:49.540 - 01:11:02.920

I think a lot has got to be worked through yet, in terms of where the boundaries of behaviour are. It's quite clear that the Catholic Church, particularly, although it's improving little by little,

01:11:03.480 - 01:11:13.900

has not yet done enough on the abuse issue. And that's about power, of course, and it's not to worry about sex. Though, of course, it damages people's ability

01:11:13.900 - 01:11:24.100

to love and be loved intimately. And so I think those are the things that are knotty problems, which I don't see,

01:11:24.860 - 01:11:37.660

I don't see how any of them, how they will be resolved. But I do see an approach changing, which is, you know,

01:11:37.940 - 01:11:50.900

we somehow have to learn to live together with a considerable amount of difference and diversity. But is that a bad thing? And I remember,

01:11:51.960 - 01:11:58.440

when I was in Aberdare, I was being interviewed by Sally Magnusson for Songs of Praise, which they did down the Pilgrim route, you see.

01:11:59.300 - 01:12:07.660

And I'd forgotten I'd said this, but somebody who'd seen the program recently, rebroadcast in Australia, wrote to me and said,

01:12:07.760 - 01:12:18.100

I'm so glad you said this. And it was just right for me to hear back after half a dozen years, which was, I think I was asked,

01:12:18.460 - 01:12:27.320

what does faith mean to you? And I said, well, it's learning to live with the unresolved and pray for grace.

01:12:28.840 - 01:12:46.840

You know, because the older I get, I feel less and less certain about more and more. And I can't resolve the paradoxes of birth and death. Every time I try and think of

01:12:47.340 - 01:12:56.060

what an afterlife might be like, I collapse in hysterics. But I can't entirely let go of the belief in it. I think the evidence is far too strong now.

01:12:56.060 - 01:13:15.120

And I'd say that if I were a scientist. That's another track, but that's of interest to me at the moment, of course. Yes, I probably need to shut up for my health's sake.

01:13:16.200 - 01:13:24.340

I could latter on for ages, as you can imagine. Is that what you hoped for? Yes. Good.

01:13:24.340 - 01:13:26.840

As long as you've got that, that's fine.