00:00:01.820 - 00:00:32.520

This is an interview with the Reverend Claire Frances Wilson on the 22nd of February 2023, interviewer Dr Anne Summers of the Friends of the Women's Library. Reverend Wilson, can you tell me your full name and when and where you were born? Claire Frances Wilson and I was born in Manchester in 1943.

00:00:34.320 - 00:00:58.040

Now some family background questions. Do you know where your mother went to school? In East London. Which school was it? I don't know. Did she go on to further education? Did she go to secondary school or vocational training? She left school at the age of 13.

00:01:00.460 - 00:01:24.200

What did she do after that? She married when she was fairly young and she never had a career as such, no. Did she have any female relatives who were out at work, do you think? Or were they just in the same situation as her? I think the second one is true, yes.

00:01:28.800 - 00:01:53.760

Do you know how your father was educated or trained? What did he do? He was a draftsman and he was born in Cornwall and quite where he met my mother, I'm not sure. I was just going to ask. Yes, no, but probably in London, yeah.

00:01:54.940 - 00:02:09.620

Did anyone in your parents' generation go on to further education or any training after school? I think not. Do you have brothers or sisters? I have two brothers.

00:02:10.160 - 00:02:21.800

Older or younger? Both younger. Where did you all go to school? We all went to school in Dartford, in Kent, because that's where I grew up. We moved there

00:02:21.800 - 00:02:37.760

when I was three. Did you go on to any further education after school, any of you? I went to Dartford Girls Grammar School and from there I went to Hull University, where I read theology and German.

00:02:39.200 - 00:02:53.580

Good combination. Yes, it was. And did your siblings, did your brothers go on to anything after school? My brothers left school at around the age of 18, both of them, and pursued their own careers.

00:02:53.580 - 00:03:10.240

And not anything to do with church or school, no. Were you a church-going family? I grew up in the Pentecostal church. My mother was, well, both my parents, but particularly my mother was a fervent fundamentalist.

00:03:11.320 - 00:03:33.440

Her faith and her Christian practice were all important. Certainly in my growing up years as a teenager, I was firmly taught that I shouldn't want to attract boys in any unsuitable way, because it was only the spiritual nature of a relationship that really mattered.

00:03:34.360 - 00:03:54.720

Did you say prayers at home? We did. We had biblical studies sessions at home and nightly prayers. And did you have a Pentecostal church that you could go to locally? We went to Dartford Pentecostal church, but in my mid-teens, when I was at grammar school,

00:03:55.160 - 00:04:13.140

I jumped ship and became an Anglican. How did that work out with the family? That came about mainly because our grammar school had a link with the local Anglican church. And we went to services there, and I decided that I liked the choral singing

00:04:13.820 - 00:04:35.420

and the formal prayers and everything about it. And my parents were not 100% happy at that jump, but they were supportive and kind, and I became an enthusiastic Church of England member. Was that sort of starting when you were about 16?

00:04:35.580 - 00:04:57.160

When I was about, I think I was, because I had to be confirmed before I could receive communion, and I was confirmed at the age I think of 16. Yes. Were either of your parents interested in politics, do you think?

00:04:57.460 - 00:05:19.060

No, because religion was centre stage to them. Do you know how they voted in elections? Did they vote in elections? I guess my father did, my mother didn't. I imagine that he voted Labour, but I'm not sure. Were newspapers allowed in your home?

00:05:19.240 - 00:05:38.280

Well, believe it or not, we had the Daily Mirror, yes. I suppose that went with Labour to some extent. I think it did, yes. Can you describe how and when you felt called to the ministry?

00:05:42.320 - 00:06:13.560

It happened a long time after I joined the Church of England, because I was 15 and then. I was encouraged in the Anglican Church to participate, obviously not as a minister, but to lead discussion groups, to take Bible studies, and I was attracted to the idea of, if you like, showing others the way. I was interested in biblical criticism,

00:06:14.340 - 00:06:47.040

which didn't go down well with my mother, but I enjoyed leading prayer groups, and I had ministerial aspects of my life without actually being formally ordained. And out of the blue, when I was, let me think, 19, I decided I'd go to Germany for two years. I took myself to Germany on my own, to Frankfurt am Main, got a job there,

00:06:47.560 - 00:07:13.580

teaching English at a language school, and became involved in the Lutheran Church. Again, that widened my horizons a bit. And then I came back to London and pretty much immediately got married when I returned. And I became a teacher. I taught German and Scripture, the two subjects. That was in secondary school.

00:07:13.600 - 00:07:34.320

In secondary school, yes, and I enjoyed that. But I had a continuing friendship with local clergy at different levels. Where were you living? We were living in Dartford until I married, and then my husband and I lived in London

00:07:34.320 - 00:07:54.060

and settled in Hampstead. So did you go straight to Germany after university, or did you do teacher training? I went straight to university, and those were the days when you could begin teaching. If you had a degree, you didn't have to have teacher training.

00:07:54.340 - 00:08:15.700

Yes, of course. And my husband encouraged me to find a teaching job when we were first married. I taught at William Collins Boys' School. There weren't many female members of staff there at Mornington Crescent. And then I got a job in Hampstead Comprehensive School.

00:08:16.780 - 00:08:38.800

Was that the one on Haverstock Hill? That's the one in West Hampstead. Thanks. Have you been inspired by any women in the Bible or historical women mystics? Is there anyone in particular who's inspired you?

00:08:40.460 - 00:09:03.660

I can't immediately name someone. My reading of the Bible focused me on females in the Bible, because I was interested in their role and their companionship, which they afforded to Jesus, for example, and the encouragement they gave him. I couldn't name a particular one, no.

00:09:03.660 - 00:09:38.640

Hmm. So, was there a time when you attended theological college? Well, I did the theology degree in Hull. That was three years. And when it became possible for women to be ordained to the priesthood, I did a part-time training. It was possible to carry on with your daily work, which was teaching, but also be trained, as it were,

00:09:38.780 - 00:10:00.560

in evening attendances and weekends and so on, at Salisbury College, it was called. And I trained there. But, of course, I became a deacon. Ah, yes. And I was at, let me think, where was I? I was at St Peter's as a deacon, wasn't I, Sally?

00:10:01.280 - 00:10:16.660

For, I'm trying to think how many years. Eight, you were. About seven years, yes. How were you recruited, or how did you apply for that? How did that come about?

00:10:18.240 - 00:10:32.700

Well, about getting the... Becoming a deacon, yes. I think through the clergy friendships which I had, and there were some very pro-women, very encouraging men among my friendship circle.

00:10:34.460 - 00:10:58.200

Were you very closely questioned about why you wanted to do this, or given your friendships, was that not really a thing? Well, one had to be, one had to go to a weekend of being pretty rigorously questioned before being allowed to train as an ordinant.

00:10:58.940 - 00:11:21.260

And that was a very difficult weekend in the sense that you were grilled by questions of every kind, theological, spiritual, and so on. And I remember at the end of the, the very end of that weekend, when we just didn't know whether we would be recommended or not,

00:11:22.500 - 00:11:45.660

we were told, if there's anything you want to add to what you've said already, speak to our conference managers before you go. And I asked to see the boss person, and I said, I can remember saying to them, I'm not going to give you a lot of theological defences for what I'm asking to do.

00:11:45.940 - 00:11:52.160

I'll be truthful to you. I want to do it. It's what I want. It's where my heart is.

00:11:52.500 - 00:12:06.180

I'm longing to be a minister in the Church of England. And it's, that's what I'm sharing with you. And I left it there. Now, that was, in order to become a deacon, which was all that was allowed at that time?

00:12:06.380 - 00:12:10.480

Now, I'm getting mixed up. This was priesthood. This was priesthood. That was priesthood.

00:12:10.640 - 00:12:34.460

Because the message that I had actually been selected for ordination was given to me by a non-women favouring bishop. Yes, and I was asked to go to his office. And I hadn't yet been told yes or no, whether I had been recommended for training or not.

00:12:35.060 - 00:12:50.540

And I was talking to him when the phone call came to the bishop, which informed him. And he came to me in his study and said, I have received the phone call and you are recommended for training. He said it rather coldly.

00:12:50.540 - 00:13:02.740

And I remember saying, Now, does this mean you didn't go through deacon, the deacon stage? You went straight into training for the priesthood? Pretty much, yes.

00:13:02.800 - 00:13:22.400

Yes, right. I've just wondered, do you think it helped if women who wanted to become priests were married? Do you think that helped? I think it depended entirely on the views of their spouses.

00:13:23.380 - 00:13:40.080

And I can remember having breakfast with my husband and saying to him, when I was still a teacher, I've been thinking this through and I'm going to see if they'll consider me for ordination. And he said, I am totally against it.

00:13:41.080 - 00:13:54.780

Because he said, you're earning perfectly good money as a teacher. You can occupy yourself in the church in all sorts of ways. You haven't got to actually, you know, be a paid up person. He said, just can't you leave it there?

00:13:55.080 - 00:14:18.740

And I replied, no, I can't. This is what my heart is settled on and I'm going to try for it. And to his credit, he took it on board and became supportive. And he has been, he's not a churchgoer, but he is consistently supportive of my ministry.

00:14:19.920 - 00:14:36.860

Was he a teacher too? Yes. There's a question about when you first began to preach, but you probably were doing that before you became ordained in a way, would you say?

00:14:36.860 - 00:14:55.560

I'd done quite a bit of leading groups, which wasn't identical to preaching, but I would lead Bible study groups, for example, and I would head out the group by saying, I'll give you my views on this particular chapter and so on then,

00:14:55.720 - 00:15:16.780

which was in effect a sermon. Do you think your preaching has changed over time? I've always wanted to engage people. So I've been, I don't think things have changed dramatically.

00:15:16.960 - 00:15:34.400

No, I've always been well known for my short sermons, and they are, I don't usually preach for more than five minutes, five or six minutes. And I like to amuse people, partly because if you're engaging with them at that level,

00:15:35.080 - 00:15:51.620

then something of truth relevance can come through. But I need to be on a par with them in some way. I never feel like I'm the expert holding forth and you're all learners. We are, we're a group.

00:15:52.420 - 00:16:12.480

Yeah, I've always felt that. And I did get, I think, three sermons preached in the Times Book of Sermons at some stage in the 1980s, 90s, yeah. Did you have much to do, have you had much to do with women clergy

00:16:13.060 - 00:16:28.680

in other countries or in other denominations? Certainly in other denominations, because although as I moved from Pentecostalism to the C of E, I parted company with a lot of non-conformist practice,

00:16:29.180 - 00:16:48.840

I've always had an affection for that style of worship. And actually, as an Anglican, I have never been particularly good at what we might call ceremonial behaviour. Donald, my first vicar, was immensely patient with me

00:16:49.500 - 00:17:06.280

and never fussed and never said to me, Claire, you're not getting it right here or anything. He would let me do what I felt was okay. And my longest job in the church was at an East London parish.

00:17:06.880 - 00:17:28.200

I was there for 12 years when I left St Peter's with Donald's departure, and when he resigned, not resigned, retired, I got a job in Chingford in East London, and I was there for 12 years. And I was the priest, there were two churches,

00:17:28.320 - 00:17:37.540

the main one with the rector, and then there was a smaller church with its own priest, and that was me. And I had a very, very happy 12 years there. I really loved it.

00:17:37.540 - 00:17:58.240

I liked the environment, the people, and yeah, it was good fun. I also got heavily involved, heavily involved, I got closely involved in same-sex relationship support. And I've got articles in the newspaper about me

00:17:59.420 - 00:18:16.280

and my defence of same-sex relationships when I was in East London, and I've continued to do that in my 12 years of retirement. Sadly, rather topical. You could describe it as topical at the moment, most certainly.

00:18:19.240 - 00:18:29.840

So I'm guessing you were involved in Mo. I was indeed. And what did you do? Attend meetings.

00:18:32.400 - 00:18:47.200

I don't think I played a very significant role. I was on a committee, was I, at some stage. I think I was on one or two of the committee times. I always enjoyed our get-togethers.

00:18:47.920 - 00:19:10.240

I loved being in the company of those who supported the cause. And I thoroughly enjoyed the dramatic stuff like walking down Whitehall. I've got a picture of the Daily Times with me on the front cover, and one or two others outside St Paul's Cathedral.

00:19:16.340 - 00:19:35.480

But I haven't been, as Sally was and is, as directly involved in the movement for ordination of women, or women and the church, no. What do you think?

00:19:36.440 - 00:19:57.700

Well, Sally's talked about some of the men, both lay and clergy, who were supportive. What do you think helped pass the votes? Do you think it was just that the eyes were more than the nose? Or do you think there was some change going on?

00:19:58.760 - 00:20:22.040

Do you mean in the wider society? Yes, and in the synods. I would have said it was more to do with the extent that people in the wider society were more welcoming of women

00:20:22.040 - 00:20:43.120

and a general sort of acceptance of women's roles. I felt that that went along with that very welcome progress, yes. One would like to think it had some ripples. I think so, I think so.

00:20:44.060 - 00:21:01.500

Though now, although I'm Church of England, I do have the bishop's permission to take services in many other denominations. And over my retirement years, I probably have spent more time in the United Reformed churches and the Baptist churches,

00:21:02.060 - 00:21:22.920

especially the URC ones, who are ahead of the game in terms of female ministry. Absolutely, yes. And I have a lot of URC connections and I enjoy that very much. Do you have memories of how you felt when the various votes were passed?

00:21:22.920 - 00:21:48.940

I can remember waiting for the 1992 result in the garden outside Church House Westminster, and the verdict, in inverted commas, was made known to us on a little television screen up a tree somewhere like that. And it was broadcast that this had been accepted in all three houses.

00:21:49.740 - 00:22:08.680

There were groups of women all over the garden, over the grass, all with champagne bottles. And we uncorked the bottles and there was an absolute rapturous shout of joy and delight. And we danced and we sang and we drank champagne.

00:22:09.500 - 00:22:24.260

And then when the people who'd been involved in the vote, the meetings finished and they were ready to go home, they came into the garden and many of them came up and hugged us. And it was just joyful.

00:22:25.000 - 00:22:49.840

And one ferocious woman came up to where I was sitting and I can quote exactly. She said, how dare you, how dare you people celebrate when people like me are weeping. And I can remember saying to her, I'm sorry that you feel as you do, but we've done our weeping over the years.

00:22:50.460 - 00:23:03.060

And today we're rejoicing and celebrating and there's nothing we can do about it. So get over it. She was quite violent. Yes, she was formidable, wasn't she?

00:23:03.120 - 00:23:17.340

She was so angry. Quite a big woman. Yeah. What difference would you say, particularly to such people,

00:23:18.000 - 00:23:36.400

women clergy have made in the church? And what are women's specific gifts that they bring? Or are we all genuinely equal? I couldn't easily identify gifts which are predominantly female, so to speak,

00:23:36.800 - 00:24:01.960

because when I was a young girl, I was a very, very young girl. I think of the huge swathe of clergy whom I've been in contact with. Each person has his or her own particular style, content, ability to amuse or generate enthusiasm. And I couldn't helpfully make a gender distinction there, no.

00:24:02.920 - 00:24:25.160

And, you know, I'm fairly ignorant of this. Can you explain what feminist theology is? Do you see a feminist theology to be expanded? I don't tend to read books about...

00:24:25.480 - 00:24:42.300

I mean, I have read well-known books by feminist theologians, particularly around the time of the changes in the church, when they wrote very significantly and encouragingly, and I bought the books and read them eagerly.

00:24:46.620 - 00:25:09.240

My take on theology now tends to be a pretty radical questioning one. And I'm sometimes wondering to myself, to what extent can I still, with integrity, preach when I'm not actually in line with the words I'm using?

00:25:10.860 - 00:25:27.380

Not that that's a big, dramatic thing, but it's around for me at the moment. But then we're on a journey, and we're always on a journey, and we're always exploring. And I think that's what I encourage people to believe when I preach,

00:25:27.880 - 00:25:39.500

is that there's new territory ahead. And we can't be sure, but we don't want to be sure. I think if you're not asking questions, you're not thinking. That's right.

00:25:39.780 - 00:26:02.540

And I'm happy to live with my questions and ask them and see where they take me. Gosh. Which makes me remain an Anglican minister, despite my, as I say, questioning and so on. That's so interesting. May I ask, did you have children?

00:26:03.340 - 00:26:22.180

I have two sons. Our first son was born with a learning disability, which became apparent when he was about a year old. And Peter is now 50, and he is in residential care.

00:26:23.500 - 00:26:47.580

And he was very, very welcome at St Peter's, and much loved. And he is a dearly loved man who can't read or write or make proper decisions about his life or anything. And a bit of me and my husband.

00:26:48.260 - 00:27:06.380

And I have a younger son who was born without a disability, and who is very supportive of his brother and very loving. But it's not been the easiest of journeys by any means. Looking after Peter has been a challenge, and still is.

00:27:06.380 - 00:27:27.540

Yes. And there's a mixture of my feeling, what a blessing that he is such an amiable, funny, musically talented young man, and a bit of me that wants to cry and say, what would have happened had the damage not happened at birth?

00:27:28.020 - 00:27:37.920

What would he have become? We'll never know. So it's, in a sense, it's a bereavement. Yes. It's a bit like a bereavement.

00:27:39.600 - 00:27:50.940

But yeah, I won't go down that road. No. Oh, well, Reverend Wilson, thank you so much. This has been so interesting.

00:27:53.000 - 00:28:05.680

And I don't rule out coming back to you and Sally again, if I may. Well, I've enjoyed answering the questions, I'll tell you that. As...