00:00:00.000 - 00:00:27.460

So, could you begin by telling me a little bit about your childhood, where siblings, parents, etc. Yeah. So, I grew up in this small community, it's a little bigger now, and I lived, or we lived, my parents, I'm the first born, and I have a brother who's five to six years

00:00:27.460 - 00:00:53.380

younger than I am. And in fact, not long after he was born, we moved from the centre of the village to its very perimeter, which was like another village. And we lived on a brand new council estate there. So, were you a church attending family?

00:00:53.380 - 00:01:22.540

My mother had been very involved in the Methodist Church, and I was baptised at the local Methodist Church. Yes, I did get involved with the church, but not immediately actually. At that point, because we lived near the Baptist Church, I went to the Baptist Sunday School, and we would go to chapel, and also they had a very good social life, the Baptist Church, so they

00:01:22.540 - 00:01:46.720

did an annual pantomime, which I was usually in. And so there were some choruses of us in the, photographs of us in the chorus of Aladdin, singing Chinatown, my Chinatown, when the lights are lit. Fabulous. So, you had a bit of an experience of lots of traditions then, church-wise.

00:01:46.720 - 00:02:22.100

That was quite good. And the other unifying thing as well at that time were the Whit Walks. So, the chapels in particular, they expected great crowds at Whitsun, and it was very scary that they would put up scaffolding to connect the main seating with the, well, what are they called when you have seating at the top of a building as well, they're not boxes,

00:02:23.460 - 00:02:44.240

galleries, the seating in the galleries, and then they would put white sheets over all this scaffolding and wood, and you were sitting on, which was a bit scary because you were frightened, as a child you're frightened of falling through, but they also had the Whit Walks, so the churches would unite, that's why they needed all the seating they could

00:02:44.240 - 00:03:08.140

get, I think they would unite, start at one church, and then they would walk in procession with the band through the village to another, to a chapel somewhere, or vice versa. That was all very lovely. I don't know whether it quite happens in the same way, but the Whit Walks, and all the churches or the Sunday schools had big banners, like the trade union

00:03:08.140 - 00:03:25.400

banners that you can still see on marches. So it was a sort of, must have been a 19th century tradition that was being carried on. Wow, good job there weren't charismatics falling over in the spirit on the top of these high seats.

00:03:25.620 - 00:03:48.680

Indeed. So would you say you had a faith, a Christian faith, or were you attending church because that was what one did? What an interesting question. Oh, I believed strongly, I think. And I remember once going

00:03:48.680 - 00:04:16.920

down to the chapel, I was older by this time, and for some reason it was cancelled, and coming home and being really, really disappointed. So it was obviously a big part of my life. Yeah. Did I have a faith? Did I pray really? I suppose I prayed in church, and also I had an experience

00:04:16.920 - 00:04:39.660

when I was about 12, a feeling of a sense of some sort of calling. But it didn't happen in church, it happened by the little river, little stream that ran by the church just across the road. And there were sort of arching bushes and things. And yeah, that's where I had it, out in the outdoors.

00:04:40.000 - 00:04:59.980

Okay, you were 12? I think I was about 12 then. About 12, okay. Can you tell me, I mean this is not on my crib sheet, but at what point did you have a kind of awareness of your identity, sexual identity? Was that something

00:04:59.980 - 00:05:29.440

that happened in your early teenage years, or older? Early teens. I mean I used to listen to the radio a lot, so I remember hearing a sort of discussion about gay, and this is at the time where gay meant happy, but was beginning to be used for people who had queer identities, and you know the rather snooty speakers were

00:05:29.440 - 00:05:58.020

talking about that. But it sort of raises your curiosity. Then the other peculiar thing about growing up in the time I did, was round the horn, with Kenneth Williams and Hugh Paddock playing Julian and Sandy, these screaming queens, speaking Polari, which everybody used to sit, having their Sunday lunch, with this on in the background. But it was obvious,

00:05:58.740 - 00:06:23.340

I suppose as I got into my teenage years, it was obvious what that was. But nobody ever said anything, oh hello Mr Horn, and all that stuff. Nobody ever said anything about it. So it was sort of outrageous what the BBC got away with as it were. Yeah. Em, but, but people quite like camp and I think in working class culture, which is what I grew up in

00:06:23.340 - 00:06:50.920

really, I think they quite like camp. So, em, it was all celebrated. Where it became difficult was when it all became overt, was people, it became overt and people started to talk about themselves. I think that s, that became more challenging, especially in the sort of world I, I grew up in. But I would say, I think I knew I was attracted

00:06:50.920 - 00:07:26.660

to males. Em, oh, well fourteen certainly. I had a tremendous crush because we went with the Scouts to the International Scout Chalet, er, Kandersteg in Switzerland and er, I just fell in, in love with this French boy. We became pen friends. Em, then, that s fourteen. I mean, I did, I did, I did fall in love with a girl as well though. So, I mean, it wasn

00:07:26.660 - 00:07:56.500

t sort of clear. It s never clear, is it, for teenagers, how their sexuality will go. Shifts a bit for a few years certainly. Yeah. But then, and a sense of em, of being transgender though I wouldn t have, I wouldn t have been able to use that word, that was quite early as well. I think I sort of cross-dressed quite early. Maybe eleven, ten or eleven. And where

00:07:56.500 - 00:08:21.000

did you get your clothes from? I just raided my mum s wardrobe when she was out. Are they fashionable enough? Well, when you re ten, eleven, you don t care, do you? Oh, I don t think I would have worn, I don t think I would have worn some of my parents clothes. But they maybe weren t as fashionable as yours. Well, they didn t fit me anyway, did

00:08:21.000 - 00:08:45.960

they, at that age. Em, so I suppose it was just an exploration really. I have very short parents, so I was. And very, and sort of rarely and secretively done as well. And feeling guilty about it. So there would have been all those things going on. Then I think when I was about sixteen, I did see things in Sunday newspapers which alerted me to the

00:08:45.960 - 00:09:19.480

fact that there was sort of world out there. Yeah. But it did seem very seamy. Em, and at sixteen, a friend s sister said she had read a book about what she described as sex change. Because I mean, that s what it was in those days. So I asked to borrow it. And em, I found, I found it quite alarming that em, the person was sectioned because of what

00:09:19.480 - 00:09:56.620

they said. So again, that makes you think, oop, this is a very dangerous part of one s self. Em, and I, so I didn t feel any particular need to, to explore it. And anyway, the possibilities. Oh, oh, and while I, while I was at school, em, there was one very cunt boy, and I know he, he was arrested in Leeds, em, in female clothing. But arrested for soliciting, because

00:09:56.620 - 00:10:19.100

that s what they would get you under. Yeah. So again, that seemed to send me signals that this is pretty dangerous. Dark and dangerous. Yeah. Repress, repress. There wasn t a heaving metropolis that you could just escape into. Well, well, you see, he went off to, he was, he was brave. He went off to Leeds, but I didn t, I didn t do that. Okay. I suppose

00:10:19.100 - 00:10:44.080

I was very cautious really. So quite studious as well. Yeah. Would you say you threw yourself into, into study. Definitely. I did that. Yeah. Yeah. And I d had this peculiar experience where, em, they didn t do the eleven plus that year, so although I was the brightest person in school, and when the marks came out, and they did this thing where they sort of selected

00:10:44.080 - 00:11:04.420

some to pass, some to go to, some to go to grammar, some to go to secondary modern, and there were four of us in the middle, and there were two of us who were always scored really well in exams, and then the other two who didn t do so well. What happened, and we went for interviews, and I think, like you with your cold, I think I spent two days in bed

00:11:04.420 - 00:11:25.400

prior to going to this interview. Anyway, I went and did what I, I did the maths, did the English, er, but the outcome was that myself and this other person, who d always scored highly, we didn t, we went to secondary modern, and the other two went to grammar school. Okay. So that was quite a sort of awkward thing. Yeah. And they didn t, the headmaster

00:11:25.400 - 00:11:47.640

didn t publish the exam results that year, so, and I was quite fearful of him. However, I went to the drawer, he was out of the room, I went to the drawer, opened it up, and there there were the results, and I had the top marks. I just pushed it back. But my family were not financially able to do anything about that. We did have an opportunity to like,

00:11:47.900 - 00:12:16.480

to sit an exam in the first year at secondary school, but I didn t, I thought, no, I don t want to go through that again. I can t bear to fail again. So I just stuck, er, stayed at sec, sec mod. And then when I, and I did re, I mean, I did really well, but, um, I then transferred to the comprehensive school for the sixth form. Mm-hm. Well, going back

00:12:16.480 - 00:12:39.080

slightly, why do you think they fiddled it, that you didn t get into the grammar school? I don t think they fiddled it. I think, I think the people who interviewed us didn t know us. Okay. And whether So, so irrespective of your marks. I think the other people were quite extrovert, the other two. Okay. And probably performed really well on the day.

00:12:39.300 - 00:13:06.200

Yeah. Um, the, the girl who got through was expelled within about three months. Okay. And sent to our school for behavioural issues really. She was, she was not next door neighbour, but next door neighbour, but one. Mm-hm. And was quite a volatile. Yeah. Person. Were you naturally, er, more reticent or would you say you were kind of repressing a lot

00:13:06.200 - 00:13:34.780

of things, so you weren t extrovert for that reason? It s a really interesting question because when I was younger, I was more extrovert. Mm-hm. So, it does feel as though, I mean, whether it was that I would have been an introvert anyway, but it does feel as though a lot of stuff shut down. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Which is a bit of a shame really. Yeah. But it kept

00:13:34.780 - 00:13:58.820

really. Thank you. Um, I identify as bisexual and Christine on it was very difficult. I know that I am an extrovert person. I went very quiet for a few years in that, in that stage of my life. So, um, just interested from a personal point of view, you know, how you, why you felt that was. Um, so you were dressing as a boy. Yeah. And your name,

00:13:58.820 - 00:14:28.800

you were Chris. I was Chris. I like to be, I really like to be Chris. Yeah. Because it s quite gender neutral as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you were Chris, um, to all intents and purposes. Male. Male, straight, whether you felt that or not, but that was your outwards identity at that time, would you say, or. I was open about feeling attracted to boys

00:14:28.800 - 00:14:57.060

with my peer group as a teenager. They knew that. I just do it in a sort of camp way. But then. Okay. In a sort of tennis games way. Yeah. Playful. A playful way. Okay. But you know, it was seriously, I think I probably did know. Yeah. But you saw yourself as a gay boy, gay teenager at that time. Well, I suppose I did, but a cross dressing one.

00:14:57.400 - 00:15:27.380

Yeah. So that was part of the idea, but I wouldn t have talked about that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And were you bullied at school at all? Um, not much. I think I was, I was on the bus backcombing the hair of another boy. I was, you know, we were sort of ribbed for that. I certainly, again, I would try and avoid people who were likely to bully me.

00:15:27.440 - 00:15:57.140

Yes, I was bullied by one, I was bullied by one boy and I, and my parents made me stand up to him. I know I was chased by, we were all chased, a group of us were chased by a group of older lads. And, and I got caught. And after, and I was late home. And after that, I had to learn how to box. Okay. Which I absolutely hated doing. Real boxing, not

00:15:57.140 - 00:16:26.380

all that kickboxing stuff. No. Oh no, my dad rigged up a, his old kit bag because he d been in the Merchant Navy. And, er, I had to, to learn how to jab, jab, swing. Jab, jab, swing. Actually, it was fantastic because when I was, um, when I went to, as a research student to Cambridge, about twenty-one, maybe twenty-two, I went to ring Rob, my partner,

00:16:26.380 - 00:16:55.580

and, um, I was surrounded in this telephone box by a group of yobs, basically. And my purse and gloves were on the, where you put the cash. And I think I came, I, I thought I better get out of here. And I remember a friend of mine, another research student, saying how a similar thing had happened to him. And he'd talked his way out of it. So

00:16:55.580 - 00:17:21.520

I thought, okay, I'll just talk my way out of it. But somebody said, oh, go on, Ginger, put the boot in. So I just said, oh, no, you don't. And I started, I just got into that position, da, da, da, da. And they all scattered. Which was wonderful, really. We had to report it. And they, there, there was a whole string of incidents that they'd been involved with.

00:17:21.640 - 00:17:47.660

Theft from colleges, you know, milk crates of milk and stuff like that. Um, so while I hated it because it was so masculine to do, to do the boxing, um, it did sort of save me on that occasion. I was really grateful for it. Yeah. And just linking it all up and sort of a healing of that. I remember when I came to work in London in 2001 and

00:17:47.660 - 00:18:14.560

my boss gave me, um, Sandra Bullock, Miss Congeniality, where she's that very tough cop who has to glam in order to infiltrate. And of course it begins with her when she gets home after being a tough cop all day. The first thing she does is her punch bag. But she's, you know, she's really sort of svelte and pretty as well. Oh, that's really

00:18:14.560 - 00:18:38.260

nice. It brought back painful memories, but it also felt, oh really, that's really good to see this gorgeous woman, you know, belting the what have you out of the punch bag. I don't know if you watch Anna Dal, one of the Nordic noir things on a Saturday night. Swedish. There's a police lady, the chief of investigative team there who does kickboxing and she's really

00:18:38.260 - 00:19:08.140

glamorous and you just see her in the gym. Yeah. So, um, stereotypes, isn't it? Yeah, it's a bit. Was it, did your dad insist on you doing the boxing because he knew you identified as gay or just simply because you'd been beaten up or bullied? I think that was before I identified. Yeah. He, I heard him say to my grandmother, probably I was about

00:19:08.140 - 00:19:41.900

twelve, I'm not sure, my maternal grandmother, that the thing he had a problem with was that I was so effeminate. And my grandmother said, well never mind, they'll grow out of it. Over decades, I've had to, I mean, I found that really painful that he said that because I wasn't aware that I was effeminate. I was just me. Yeah. But then who measures what's

00:19:41.900 - 00:20:09.020

effeminate as well? I mean, compared to the boy at school who was arrested in Leeds, I wasn't as effeminate as him, but I must have been effeminate on some standard my dad had. Um, my therapist helped me with that because she said, well, it wasn't so much that you were effeminate as that you were feminine. That helped. What age was that when you were

00:20:09.020 - 00:20:42.160

speaking to that therapist? That would be, oh, I'm in my fifties. No, no, forties. I'm something that you kept going as a teenager or did that dwindle? I had one little bit of rebellion when I was about, how old would I have been? Twelve, but then, or thirteen, but then I was in the youth group at church and we did lovely things. So my dad wrote

00:20:42.160 - 00:21:09.180

plays for us. We did carol singing after midnight mass at Christmas. So we did, there were lots of things going on. Yeah, we did charitable stuff. So, and I think that nurtured a vocation as well, that youth group. Yeah. Did you talk about your sexuality at all in that environment? It wasn't like today. You didn't really do that. No, it wasn't like that when I grew

00:21:09.180 - 00:21:43.780

up. Um, so talk me through, um, education. What, where did you go after school? Um, A-levels, university? Yeah. Yeah. I did A-levels and then, um, I think I, I mean, I think my confidence was really knocked with all that, um, thorn scheme thing, but the deputy head was very keen that I did enough A-levels to go to uni. And I went to, um, Sussex university

00:21:43.780 - 00:22:09.200

to do religious studies. I wasn't really sure whether I would do teaching or whether I'd put myself forward for ordination. And, uh, I hadn't, you know, I hadn't got the languages because I'd done French because of, uh, being at the secondary modern and the ways, religious studies at Sussex was really good because you could do all sorts

00:22:09.200 - 00:22:32.920

of different, you could take it any way you wanted because there was African and Asian studies, English and American studies, which is where I did it in that school. And I did a lot on history and philosophy. And I had a wonderful woman, um, personal tutor, Kathleen Bliss. Um, and, um, she was just a great inspirational figure. She'd been involved in the setting

00:22:32.920 - 00:22:56.220

up of the World Council of Churches and she was very much a woman in a man's world as well. And she would have been in her sixties by that time, late fifties, early sixties. Um, and I did really, I did really well in that, in my first degree and got a first. So I, I'd set up a place to go to teacher training, but I then had the option of going

00:22:56.220 - 00:23:25.580

to Cambridge to do research. So having been in, oh, what I have to say as well is I met, I met my husband in Brighton, but maybe we'll come back to that. Let me finish the education and then we'll do that. So I went, I went to Cambridge and I went, Stephen Sykes was my supervisor and he gave me, I want to do historic 19th century religion. And he gave

00:23:25.580 - 00:23:51.220

me a couple of options, but I focused on Robertson of Brighton, um, cause he thought it was quite good as well that I'd been in Brighton, who was this Victorian preacher who was in evangelical, who studied German theology a bit, became, became liberal, preached these amazing sermons, which are still very biblical. And, um, and I was really going

00:23:51.220 - 00:24:18.320

to look at what, why did he change? What was it? Which I was looking at in terms of intellectual influences, which is, you know, that is true. But when it came, and you know about this during the doctorate, I had my viva and I was asked to revise it. What I didn't know at that time is most people are asked to revise dissertations. Uh, just a

00:24:18.320 - 00:24:44.860

few are passed. A few, very few have failed. And then quite a lot in the middle, you just have to revise. Anyway, I think because of what happened when I was 11, all that stuff came back and I found it. And by this time I'd gone into the discernment process and I'd gone to Westcote House in Cambridge. I'd finished my, just finished my two years there.

00:24:44.860 - 00:25:14.480

And I'd started in a parish in Portsmouth. So, to finish that story, I come back to the dissertation in 1997 when I have a sabbatical. And there are two, because there are two bits of unfinished business that I look at then. Uh, one is the dissertation and the other is my gender identity. And I could tell you more about how that panned out. But that's

00:25:14.480 - 00:25:49.360

the sort of educational stuff. So you're in your forties. Mm-hm. Forty-six. Okay. Interesting. Okay. So, um, obviously you've become involved in campaign work. Tell me about, you know, your involvement in any sort of activism, campaign work, organisations you've been involved in. If you, if you don't mind, let me, let me do coming out.

00:25:49.540 - 00:26:27.660

Okay. Can I do that in stages? Sure. Yeah. So, at Sussex University, I realised I needed to do something about identity. And in the newsletter for the Christian community, which was starting in Brighton. And of course the law changed in 67. So this is 72. So it's quite soon afterwards. I thought, well, I'm going to join it. So I make contact with the

00:26:27.660 - 00:27:00.840

convener who was an incredible retired colonel at John Goff, who wore pink chiffon scarves and was an artist. And I went along and, um, took an instant, um, attraction to the secretary, uh, Rob. Um, and, but, and we, we, we didn't talk for weeks, I think, but eventually we spoke and it was quite sparky, this conversation. This is Rob, who's your

00:27:00.840 - 00:27:37.260

husband? Yeah. Ooh, that's good. Um, so, um, we became a couple in 1972. And, um, I then wanted him to come home with me, see. So, and I'm 21 now. And, um, so I told my mum, came out to my mum and she said, well, we can't tell your father. So I said, well, I still want him to come home with me. So he did. And nothing was ever said, you know,

00:27:37.300 - 00:28:04.160

about why was it? So that was that. So I came out to my mum at 21. Then, and I'm at Cambridge at this time. And then I go to Westcote. Now when it's time to leave Westcote, so this is 78 and I'm 27. The principal said to me, I want you to go to this parish. It's got a very strong preaching tradition. You're interested in preaching. So I want you to

00:28:04.160 - 00:28:23.760

go to this parish in the West country. And I said, well, I don't really want to go there. He said, well, why not? Because very direct, the principal at that time. And, uh, I said, well, I've got my own reasons, you know? Well, what are they? You see? So I thought, oh, well, I'm going to tell him then. So I said, well, I've got a partner and he works

00:28:23.760 - 00:28:59.400

in London and he doesn't want to leave his father. Um, and, um, and move relocate to the West country. He said. How do I spell that for the transcription? The interesting thing was, you see the chaplain of the college had come out in a complaint address in the chapel the year before I went there. So he couldn't really say, well, that's not acceptable

00:28:59.400 - 00:29:25.660

because he employed somebody who was out. So he said, well, look, I can't promise that you'll be ordained, he said, but I will try and find a Bishop who, um, who will ordain you. Um, let's, you know, leave it with me. So, um, he came back to me. He said he had found such Bishop. He was the Bishop of Portsmouth and I got to go and see the Bishop of Portsmouth.

00:29:25.660 - 00:29:50.840

So I went to see him and he was aware of the situation. He said, would you live together? And I said, I don't think I will. He said, well, I hope the time comes when you will be able to live together. He's about campaigning. He said, I think I said, I won't be campaigning. I mean, I've been part of that CHE, but it was very much support for people more than

00:29:50.840 - 00:30:16.180

campaigning. Yeah. And, um, so he said, oh, that, that's good. Yeah, that's fine. He, I don't think I had to make a promise I wouldn't campaign. Um, the other thing on, just thinking just while this is sort of in my mind, is the whole thing with CH, CHE and Gay Liberation Front, which were both operating in Brighton and GLF was much more fun. They had fantastic

00:30:16.180 - 00:30:42.920

discos and stuff like that. But we were in the rather staid CHE, which had an older age range, but that didn't matter because anyway, I was, I was, I was busy. I was, I was, um, researching. So, and not even there. So, and Cambridge, although I did sort of look up like the historical aspect in Cambridge, because you'd had E.M. Forster and King's

00:30:42.920 - 00:31:14.120

College, Cambridge, the fellowship there was sort of known to be very gay friendly. And, um, the wonderful Norman Pittinger, who wrote Time for Consent, er, was retired, retired to King's, but there wasn't much avert LGBT stuff at that time. So, um, so then the bishop sent me to meet, um, William Richard Gerald Sargent, the vicar of St Mark North End,

00:31:14.580 - 00:31:41.680

Bill, who was a Christian Socialist, CND, er, Vice President of Housing Associations, er, prayer book Catholic. It was just bloody marvellous, to use one of the expressions. And he was to be my incumbent. So he said, er, you got a girlfriend? I said, no. Got a boyfriend? I said, yes. That's all right, he said. We've got another, another, another

00:31:41.680 - 00:32:10.480

here on the team. Another type like you. But he was just a wonderful person to be, have as your incumbent. Yeah. And I think people have said he was an Abba. So like one of the desert fathers, really. Unconditional love. And his wife, Jill, has continued that. His widow, I should say. Um, so that was great, but it was a thing of coming out to people

00:32:10.480 - 00:32:37.460

who needed to know. Yeah. So I need to know basis. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So. You want to know what happens next, don't you? Well, yeah. I'll tell you what. Yeah. I'm, I'm wondering, I mean, at what point are you beginning to identify publicly as female? Does that happen? Not yet. Not yet. Okay. I don't want to get the story wrong. No, that's a good question

00:32:37.460 - 00:32:58.560

to ask though, just to sort of clarify. Okay. Well, you, you proceed in the order you feel it goes. That's fine. So what happened? So I was, I worked with Bill just over three years. And at the end of that, he said, well, I'd like you to stay in the parish and go to one of the daughter churches. And, um, so I did that. So I was there nearly seven

00:32:58.560 - 00:33:24.100

years. And then I was, um, cause it's very different days. You didn't apply for jobs then. It was suggested that I moved to these two parishes, Catherington and Clanfield. And there was no bishop that the, the, um, was it the provost suggested me moving there and they'd seen one person and they hadn't taken them. They were seeing people one at

00:33:24.100 - 00:34:04.460

a time. So I went there. So this is 1985. In 1987, I'm thinking of the timeline, we have the Hickton debate, which for somebody in my position who is sort of out to those who need to know, but not to, you know, generally, it's really awful because I've been, I've been supported in my vocation as a partnered person. Um, and then when it comes to the

00:34:04.460 - 00:34:31.380

converting synod, they're saying that homosexual genital acts fall short of the, this ideal, this biblical ideal and they're to be met with compassion and so on and so on. There was a gay priest in the next parish and prior to the debate, he and I did write to all the synod representatives from our diocese, setting out what we thought, um, should be

00:34:31.380 - 00:35:02.320

said and what, what the way forward should be. Um, but of course it didn't go that way. So I struggle on. I'm finding it quite difficult with these two parishes, running two parishes, which are very different. And also I'm having struggles, I think, with assertiveness as well. And, um, we've come to a crisis and what triggers it is Bill's death in the June

00:35:02.320 - 00:35:31.360

of 1989. He had written to me in 1987 and he said, um, oh, the silly old church of England because, because somebody at Sarum College had resigned, one of the staff. He said, it's such a shame. Jeremy's resigned. He said, you know, he said, don't you do that? And, uh, you, you know, I love you. I love you. He said, and I would lay down my life

00:35:31.360 - 00:36:02.480

for you. I read this postcard and thought, oh, good blimey, what is that? You know, for somebody to say that to you. And then two years later he died. And I, although I hadn't run back to him, I just felt this safe figure had gone. So I was basically grieving and I know I was in grief. I kept, I kept, um, I kept bursting into tears when

00:36:02.480 - 00:36:33.640

I was driving the car on long journeys. And, um, anyway, there was another trigger, which I'm not going to talk about. That'll come in my autobiography if I ever write it. And, um, I, I entered this, this crisis really, in which, um, I ended up going to, to, to stay. I was going to stay for a couple of nights on the Isle of Wight on retreat. And,

00:36:33.780 - 00:36:58.600

um, the first evening I went in and spoke and I had dinner with the person who ran this little place. His wife and children had gone out. It's really interesting. And I was just telling him what I was going through. And he said, uh, this is, I suppose, what I would have talked about with Bill, you see, but he, he, he gave me what I needed. He said,

00:36:58.660 - 00:37:22.940

um, well, the thing is, he said, you've had quite an easy life, haven't you? He said, um, the Lord's just giving you a little shake up. That's all. That's all it is. And in the caravan, which is where I would have stayed, I know, I, I just prayed as I'd never, never prayed before about trying to resolve all the problems that were going on. So I said

00:37:22.940 - 00:37:52.260

to him, and we prayed in it, I said, look, I'm not going to stay. I need to go home. And I went home and, uh, back to Rob and, um, where'd we go? Oh, we took, we took, we took, we took, um, um, children and adults to the cathedral at the weekend. And I had this incredible experience of the spirit moving in the cathedral because I was so broken,

00:37:52.260 - 00:38:21.760

really. I was broken. It hit the sort of the buffers that hit the rock bottom. But by the Saturday, I was sort of coming back up again. And there was the fair, the, the, the, um, bonfire night fair right behind us in the fields. And we took friends and I was seeing, um, bright lights in people's eyes and things. So I was, I don't, I don't know

00:38:21.760 - 00:38:41.800

what you'd call it really. It wasn't a nervous, I don't think it was a nervous breakdown, but it was some sort of, what it was, was all probably all the repression actually. Now I think about it. In fact, having read, re-read one of Susan Howitch's novels the other day, it was fragmentation. Okay. I think. Or just put, let's put that on as the label.

00:38:42.160 - 00:39:10.380

Okay. But, or it was a mystical experience. Is it a positive or a negative? Yeah, positive. Positive. So, we went to bed and the next day was the First Communion of the Newly Confirmed. So, I said, em, oh, oh, oh, I woke up in the early hours and I had this very strong sense that I had to say in the sermon the next day, God loves me including the fact

00:39:10.380 - 00:39:32.140

that I'm gay. Oh, alright. So I went back to sleep. Woke, woke up in the morning and as we were getting dressed, I said to Rob, I've had this, these words in the night and I really think I should, I think I should say this today in the sermon. God loves me including the fact that I'm gay. He said, are you sure you're meant to say that? I said,

00:39:32.560 - 00:40:00.880

well, no, I'm not sure, a hundred percent sure, but I'll know when I get there. This is very interesting for me because I, I'm not naturally an intuitive, I'm a sensitive person. So, we, we, you know, we do the service and, er, and I'm preaching and, er, and this thing of the, the lights in people's eyes are happening and there's tremendous spirituality

00:40:00.880 - 00:40:25.120

flowing between me and my reader, our re, parish reader, Margaret, who is older than I am, and sometimes our relationship can be a bit difficult because she was, she, she was quite sort of disorganised, but there's this lovely flow. You know, we, we take the youngs, everybody to the cathedral the day before. So I said it. Things could never

00:40:25.120 - 00:40:51.920

be quite the same again. So that's nineteen eighty-nine now. So this is just not really long after the time there's gruesome AIDS adverts on TV in section twenty-eight. So. And, and maybe that was part of it as well in terms of timeline. And obviously the whole stuff about AIDS had, we'd had all the campaign stuff and one, one lovely family in the parish,

00:40:52.040 - 00:41:15.120

the eldest boy, I'm going to talk about the mother in a minute, the eldest boy, er, wanted to be a doctor and became a doctor. And he was very, very hot on all the stuff about HIV in the youth group. And she said, er, people think, might think my son's a bit strange, you know, but he has got this very strong medical interest as well. And we got

00:41:15.120 - 00:41:41.420

the leaflets, AIDS and the Chalice, which I had there in the rack and everything. And I think by this time, I might have, I might have been networked with the, em, the clergy consultation, which became the lesbian and gay and then LGBT clergy consultation. So I would have been getting support as well personally from them and hearing some of the,

00:41:41.540 - 00:42:14.540

the stories. And we just had one person in the parish, a young man of twenty-one, who had come to London to study drama and whose funeral, whose funeral I, I took. And we supported his mother. Em, yeah, so that was all happening. So the parish held it. A few people left. Some people kissed me as, as they left. Because of course, probably a lot of people suspected

00:42:14.540 - 00:42:42.080

and knew anyway. Because Rob did live at the Pickeridge thing. And em, and the parish held it till nearly Christmas. And we went. Sorry, what time was the service where you were? Oh, it was, it was, it was em, the fifth of December. So it was my firework. Yeah. My neighbour. So they controlled themselves for three weeks over that. Oh no, nearly Christmas.

00:42:42.080 - 00:43:06.900

Nearly Christmas. Yeah. Three, em, Octo, er, er, December. December. Oh yeah, you re right. Yeah. But so about the twentieth of December, it came, it was the front headlines in the newspaper. But it was that headline. God loves me. What a wonderful headline. Which newspaper was it? Uter, Portsmouth Evening News, and then it went everywhere. Ah, okay.

00:43:09.220 - 00:43:37.640

Um, the bishop was very good. He said, I can support you in what you said. He said, but I, if you were. Not what you do in bed. He said, if you were to say that you and Rob were in a relationship, you know, had a sexual relationship, I couldn t support that. He himself was gay, as probably was the previous bishop. Um, but he was supportive, so that

00:43:37.640 - 00:44:05.500

was good. Um, a few weeks later, the mother of this young man who was very hot on us having up to date awareness about AIDS prevention, she and her husband ran the Sunday School and the youth group. They were just amazing. And he has, he died last year sadly. And I have seen her recently and I ll be seeing her again recently which will be lovely.

00:44:05.940 - 00:44:38.200

She came to see me and she, about something to do with the Sunday School and she said, I think it s fantastic that you ve come out, she said, because it s wonderful to see a gay man in a caring role. And then as she went away, I thought, I didn t say I was a gay man. So that was the beginning of the dawning realisation that I hadn t got there.

00:44:38.940 - 00:45:13.420

I hadn t finished. Was that like an instant reaction to what she said to you? Yeah, it was. Were you aware that you had, was that a very sudden realisation because of her assumption about you? Yeah, and it was an assumption, it was a realistic assumption from my presentation. Um, but what it, what it shows I think is that gay was an umbrella word for a long time.

00:45:13.420 - 00:45:44.600

Um, and that people like myself inhabited it, um, comfortably or uncomfortably. Um, you know, because there were, there were people like Quint and Crisp around who did, who were sort of genderqueer, very much so. Um, so, I think I remember reading Quint and Crisp saying about, this is back in the early seventies, about starting, oh it was

00:45:44.600 - 00:46:14.360

the, it was Lunch, a new, a new gay magazine and he, they asked him his opinion and he said, but what would you write in a gay magazine? Would you give advice about how to shave your legs over the bath? Yeah. Which, you know, we re going to, we re going to go very, very quickly from a very femme idea of gay men, which we ve talked about already, we

00:46:14.360 - 00:46:41.700

re going to, to the really sort of butch leather, moustaches, all that thing s going to come in, which was never anything that appealed to me and I m very fortunate with Rob, I suppose, that he was, he was attracted to, to feminine men, not to masculine men. How old were you at this point where you made this big announcement? Nineteen eighty-nine. Nineteen eighty-nine,

00:46:41.780 - 00:47:13.580

that s right. So I m thirty, and my birthday would have been in September. Yeah, so you were thirty-eight. So I m thirty-eight. And career wise, that was, if, if I had a career, which I suspect I probably did, that was pretty catastrophic. That would be a very bad move. Em, mental health wise, it had to be the best thing I could possibly do. And of course,

00:47:13.580 - 00:47:51.340

it would liberate me to look at my gender as well. Yeah, yeah. I had an image, well, in this sort of, I think I did feel, I wasn t depressed, but I did feel depressed at times. Em, I think just by the sheer, em, social pressure that s, er, or waves that were caused by that. Yeah. That it should be such a big deal. Why should it be such a big deal? I

00:47:51.900 - 00:48:21.900

had an image of me in the, in the church, one of our churches, hanging on a rope from a, a beam, em, in Eucharistic robes. And not thinking, that s not a, think to myself, or interpreting it, that s not a suicidal image actually. That s just the death of an image, of a self-image. Okay. That s just the, it could be like, well, it s the end

00:48:21.900 - 00:48:45.520

of one sort of priesthood, which wasn t real. Yeah. It s about being more real. And I remember one, one young woman in the congregation, she d probably been in a congregation about four years about that time, she, she said, Oh, I think this is fantastic, she said. You re living the Gospel now. You re living it. Because you re living by grace. Mm. And not,

00:48:45.640 - 00:49:12.620

because I think I did have a slight thing of, Oh, well Rob and I, we were a monogamous couple and, you know, we were keeping to the rules and, and actually it s just like, well, you know, you re just like everybody else really. Yeah. And you can t pretend that you re not who you are. So this lady says to you, calls you a man, and you have a kind of massive

00:49:12.620 - 00:49:46.360

internal reaction to that. Mm. So what happens next? I think we d already been to, when she had a historical theme, and we d gone as Napoleon and Josephine. Mm. So Rob had gone as Napoleon. He looked wonderful. We got wonderful costumes. And I know he said to me, Actually, you wouldn t have done that before you came out. It s as if that was the sort of release.

00:49:47.220 - 00:50:12.040

But, and I was able to talk about it. I had one, I had one, my, my curate colleague, she was incredibly supportive. She was very, very intuitive. I know she found it difficult when I started to say, you know, fairly soon afterwards, But actually, although I ve come out and we re dealing with this, actually this is who I am. Mm. And I did share it with

00:50:12.040 - 00:50:44.780

her. I felt safe to share it with her. Um, but it was very difficult to do anything with it being in that public role. Yeah. And anyway, I m trying to deal with the fallout from, um, what I ve said. Um, what I came to, to feel was, I, I mean, I d been a member of LGCM for a long time. So when it had the, um, twenty-fifth anniversary, they got people

00:50:44.780 - 00:51:11.720

to, to send good wishes. So they had, took a big section of the church times. Mm. And you had all these signatures. And I think I was one of the very few reverends out people. I think, possibly, wholly out, there was only myself and Michael Peat, who died a couple of years ago. And so I thought, well, I don t need to, and maybe I still have this thing

00:51:11.720 - 00:51:32.480

about campaigning. I know one of the church wardens said, Oh, you didn t appear on Newsnight. She said, I thought that. I thought, oh, why didn t you appear on Newsnight? And then she said, er, but actually that s not really you. She said, I think it was better that you d. So I felt I d done something. It s in the public domain. I didn t want to make

00:51:32.480 - 00:52:01.380

anything else of it. And to be honest, I think it would have been incredibly dangerous to do anything else with it. Mm. So, eighty-nine, and I don t actually do anything about the gender till ninety-seven. I think, I said to, I asked Rock to, to come with me to a drag ball. Mm. So I just want, I just need safe spaces where I can go. I joined the Sybils,

00:52:01.640 - 00:52:31.720

which is Christian spirituality Yeah. for transgender people. But the whole, the whole thing at that time of being outed as trans would be really catastrophic I think. Yeah. Mm. And women hadn t been ordained either. Mm. So let s come to that. Ninety-three. Yeah. Nippon to ninety-three. I mean, I went to this parish to work with two women. I had

00:52:31.720 - 00:52:56.560

to nail my collars to the mast about supporting women s ordination. Um, I joined priests for the ordination of women. But when it happened, and I remember working in the office and having the television there, it was a very strange feeling when it happened. Because I was delighted, but at the same, I think we were all taken by surprise. Mm. Because

00:52:56.560 - 00:53:30.040

it had failed so many times. Mm. Um, my therapist said, You were okay till women were ordained. Because you could say to yourself, Um, I m a priest. Priests are male. Therefore I m male. But once women were ordained, I m a priest. Priests are male and female. What came up. So, but the opportunities for working through it were incredibly limited for me,

00:53:30.400 - 00:54:03.300

I found. So, in ninety-seven, but what I did do, from, right from nineteen eighty-nine, was to dance. I did, I did lots and lots of classes in dance and movement and physical, um, dance and movement. And of course they were often women only classes. Mm. They were open, but only women attended. And that felt like great progress. And also, it was able,

00:54:03.460 - 00:54:29.360

it was for me to be able to relate to my body, which wasn t as I would have liked it to be, but at least I could begin to relate to body and not live so much in my Yeah. head and spirit. So that was very liberating. So I wanted to go on, in ninety-seven, and I kept, I kept putting off my sabbatical, which was well overdue, and in ninety-seven

00:54:29.360 - 00:54:54.260

I got the opportunity to, to go. So I tried to do dance things, but everywhere I wrote, they said, Oh, you can come and do it, but not those three months. So again, I went to bed one night, and in the early hours I woke up and it, it came to me, you ve got to do two things. You ve got to go back to your dissertation, see if you can rewrite it now,

00:54:55.080 - 00:55:21.900

and you ve got to look at your gender identity. That s your task for these three months. So that s what I did. And the interesting thing is that the, that, that this Victorian preacher, he reflected a lot about gender, because the, the gender, gender debate doesn t begin in the nineteen sixties, you know, it begins in the eighteenth century really, with Mary

00:55:21.900 - 00:55:50.940

Wollstonecraft and all that, and so he s very, very conscious of what s happening and men s roles and women s roles, and it, and he applies it to Christ as well, so, so that was going on. I went to stay with my goddaughter, and, and I did a five day workshop in gender in performance with Diane Torr, who is a, a New York based drag king, but born in Scotland,

00:55:51.860 - 00:56:18.040

and it was mainly women. There was a man there, who I, I kept in touch with, and mainly people who were performers, but, and I m in the forties, you know, mid forties, but because I ve done all this movement classes, I m quite, I m reasonably supple to do it. I wouldn t be able to do it now. Em, and on, at the end of that week, my body is absolutely humming,

00:56:20.380 - 00:56:51.140

and I get, I m given a name, one night I m given a name of, em, this is just before the sabbatical. This is in the July. I go on sabbatical in the September. It starts the day Diana dies, actually. August the thirty-first. Yeah. But prior to that, I d done this, em, workshop, and I remember ringing Diane afterwards and saying, talking it through, and she said,

00:56:51.200 - 00:57:14.500

Well, I have the best of both worlds, you know. I m a mother, I can go out with my daughter, I can be girly, then I can become Danny, and go to these male only clubs, and I said, But that s not what I want. I know that s not what I want. She said, Well, look, you ve taught, you, you, you ve talked about Jungian things in the workshop, so I suggest you go

00:57:14.500 - 00:57:36.080

for Jungian therapy. And a friend of mine ran a, em, a counselling service in Portsmouth, and he d asked me to run a workshop for him on clowns and harlequins and Christmas revels, and I didn t think I could do it, and after doing Diane s workshop, I thought, Oh, I can do it. And I rang him and I said, I can do this workshop, and he said, Oh, great. I said,

00:57:36.140 - 00:58:06.860

I m also looking for counselling, but it needs to be Jungian. He said, Oh, that s what ours is. I ll put you in touch with one of our counsellors. So, it all fitted together. Yeah. Em, I went to visit my goddaughter in, during the, em, the, em, sabbatical and went and got my ears pierced. I started growing my hair longer. Em, I started wearing, er, running trousers

00:58:06.860 - 00:58:30.440

and an H&M top. Yeah. Or a cassock, but nothing, nothing else, which is a bit strange for people. And, em, so it was like gender neutral and sometimes, but sometimes I d wear, er, Doc Martin boots with it, because I thought it looked cool, but my husband just thought I looked crazy. I know when I came back from the sabbatical with the ears pierced, somebody

00:58:30.440 - 00:58:50.380

came to see me and said, er, some of us have been talking and we really don t like it that you ve had your ears pierced. I said, well, that s too bad, isn t it. Wow. That s what I ve had done. But that, that illustrates, doesn t it, how clergy are very much public property. Yeah, also how they re always at least ten years behind, because it doesn t

00:58:50.380 - 00:59:24.460

seem that drastic. Well, I don t know. You might have one pierced as a male, maybe. But anyway, lots of, lots of black guys always have both ears pierced, don t they. So, I didn t, I wasn t particularly fazed by that. Em. Do you have any body hatred going on? Not especially. Em, I, I was very hair, hair suit, em, and I had, yeah, I didn t like my,

00:59:24.900 - 00:59:56.120

I had a very heavy beard, so that really took some shifting. Em, and I think that might have been one of the reasons why I hadn t done anything earlier. Em, the thing was, I needed to leave the parish. Mm. And, em, but nobody was going to offer me a job. I went for various jobs. I d get interviews, but then I wouldn t be appointed. And, em,

00:59:56.120 - 01:00:30.320

I talked to Rob about stepping out of parish ministry. He was very happy where we were, because he loved the setting, this rural suburban setting. He didn t particularly want to move. Em, and, oh, I joined the Gender Trust. I met somebody at the Gender Trust who told me about Russell Reid who was in private practice. I d gone to see my own GP. He had

01:00:30.320 - 01:00:54.240

kept it off the record he d sent me to somebody for a tertiary referral, but the outcome of that was just stick with the counselling. He, he I think saw a lot of Catholic priests. So, again, it was all very boundary, which was great. I mean, it was the right thing. But you, you get in nowhere. So anyway, I thought, I don t want to go into the new millennium

01:00:54.240 - 01:01:16.980

because everything was building up to that. Yeah. As a male. So I thought, I m going to Russell Reid. So I made an appointment and went to see him because I knew that his diagnostic was to give you hormones. So he put me on hormones. And I know I had to go to the men s Christmas dinner a few weeks later. So it was going to be a men only event. There weren

01:01:16.980 - 01:01:52.640

t many of those in the parish. But I felt absolutely fine because I was on hormones. I had a splendid evening with all these blokes. It s just very weird, isn t it really, what pleases you. But it was sort of progress. It was progress. I know I bought some, I know that was great. And then I got shortlisted for a job. I suspect it was very part time.

01:01:53.620 - 01:02:19.240

It was twelve hours a week as a hospital chaplain. It was near where we lived. And for two years in my ministerial review, I d been looking for part time job, non-parish, near where we lived. So I got my heart s desire, which was incredible really. I know the Archdeacon had said in that second review, when I said I was thinking of stepping out, he said, Well,

01:02:19.260 - 01:02:47.780

don t step out because people will think there s something wrong. And there s nothing wrong. But I couldn t tell him. My therapist was very keen that I didn t say anything to anybody until I actually stepped over the line. So I moved in the June of 2000. Settled in and of course as I settled in, I thought, I can t just transition now. I ve got to get settled

01:02:47.780 - 01:03:18.580

in. But in the November, I went to see my manager and told her. She said, Well, I ll talk to HR and come back to you. I now know working in the NHS how slowly things move. So it was by, I think by the February, at a Sybil s event, which is really sad, I must have said something to Jay about that this was in pro, who founded Sybil s, that this

01:03:18.580 - 01:03:48.020

was in process, and somebody overheard that and let slip to a journalist who tracked me down, but, and it was published but didn t name me, so I then had to tell the diocese and again, there was a vacancy in C, and they were quite panicky. But I wasn t named, it just said a hospital chaplain. And, and the journalist was convinced that the Sybil s

01:03:48.020 - 01:04:13.140

was full of clergy who were about to transition but it wasn t. That was Christopher Morgan who, who committed suicide, sadly. He was the religious affairs correspondent of the Sunday Times. So, em, that was a bit awkward. I hadn t done anything to modify my, em, appearance, but I get, I, I basically said to the bishop, Well, I m going to set a date. I have to do

01:04:13.140 - 01:04:40.360

this now, to set a date. The C, the CEO of the hospital had come in after I started. He ran a big house church and he thought God had appointed him to stop me doing this. So I had to have sessions with him which broke, presumably broke, broke loads of boundaries. Em, but they weren t, it wasn t too harrowing, and I transitioned at work, but I knew that

01:04:40.360 - 01:05:05.920

I wouldn t be able to survive, that the new incoming bishop wasn t supporting me, the CEO wasn t supporting me, and with trans people, they ll find any excuse. Not because you re trans, but, you know. Yeah, yeah. So, I, I actually had the support of Liberty to take me through that up to transition because it was a war of nerves because they were,

01:05:06.420 - 01:05:27.200

the diocese were saying, Well, we, we could, we want you to surrender your licence. And I was being supported by a new therapist and by Liberty not to. And I said, And if I don t, well, we could withdraw it. Will you withdraw it? So it was a cat and mouse thing. Yeah. But they didn t withdraw it, but they did then restrict me to the, to the

01:05:27.200 - 01:05:49.940

hospital. So I thought, Well, I better apply for other jobs. I was shortlisted for three jobs. The third one I got at the Chelsea and Westminster as assistant chaplain. That was very interesting because the advisor, the diocesan health care chaplaincy advisor was on the panel. The, the manager said, Contact the bishop. Tell him we ve got a transgender

01:05:49.940 - 01:06:16.960

candidate. We don t know who we ll appoint, but just in case, is it a problem? Bishop says no. I come out top in the interview. They, they ring the bishop and he goes ballistic. Then I have to wait for him to decide what to do. And he gives me PTO, which again restricts me to the hospital. So I can t vote in synod elections. Er, I have to have my annual appraisal

01:06:16.960 - 01:06:49.100

with him. But, em, after far, four years, em, he gives me a licence. And, and he, he was very affirming. I think he was just scared of conservative churches when I first went there. Yeah. So you got PTO when? 2001. 2001. Yeah. And gender recognition comes in 2004. My PTO had run out and I wrote to him and said, Look, it s run out. I hadn t noticed.

01:06:49.280 - 01:07:08.340

My dad s just died. I m really focusing on other things but, you know, there is gender recognition. Would you give me a licence? I don t want you to do a big song and dance. Quite happy to come to your chapel. And he said, No, I m going to licence you, not because the laws change but because, you know, you, you re in the right place there, you re doing

01:07:08.340 - 01:07:40.560

a great job, em, and I want to licence you. But that, it was uncomfortable those four years. Feeling you re not quite pucker. You re not quite. Yeah, yeah. But it s understandable at that time. Things have moved enormously, haven t they? Oh, yeah. Even since that time. Yeah. So you re undergoing hormone therapy. Yeah, which is lifelong of course. And I

01:07:40.560 - 01:08:13.740

arrive at Chelsea, I ve transitioned, em, and in 2005 or 6, early 2006, I get gender recognition. Okay. And then we get married that September in church. Okay. Which is really nice. Yeah. Yeah. And how s, how does Rob, how did he cope with your, when you say that he stepped over a line, I m guessing that s when you re publicly dressing as, identifying

01:08:13.740 - 01:08:38.680

as female. How did Rob deal with all of that? Was he okay about it? Was it something that when it actually happened he found difficult to deal with or how was it? I think it was more difficult when it happened. I mean, I, obviously I ve been talking to him about it for many years. Mm. And em, and he d seen me, he d seen me sort of change my appearance

01:08:38.680 - 01:09:09.540

insofar as I could. I think I decided when we moved back to our home that I would dress as female as possible, em, when not at work and be gender neutral at work. Mm. The hormones were having their effect by then. You want them to be really dramatic. But I suppose I was only just over six months in when I got there. And em, by, by a year in, people

01:09:09.540 - 01:09:36.540

were relating to you as a female or as a male. It, it can be either. Mm. And, and you re getting more and more female. I think the problem for him was what the neighbours would think. That was the most awkward bit. Mm. And a neighbour, a very, we d known for a very long time, he said, used a male pronoun in front of her and her husband. And I got

01:09:36.700 - 01:09:57.200

quite cross with him and said, look, I ve transitioned, it s she. Mm. And then she saw me on my own a few days later and said, look, what you re going through, I hope it s not going to split you up, she said, because it is a marriage you, you have, isn t it. Which was really nice. So I mean, obviously she wasn t, they weren t, nobody s bothered too

01:09:57.200 - 01:10:32.840

much actually. Rob was frightened we d lose our gay friends. Yeah. How did it affect his identity? I mean, is he. He might be here so you can ask him. Yeah. People must assume you re a straight man. Yeah. So his answer now to that is, well it s more complicated than that. Mm. Um, yeah, it s really for him to say, I think he felt we were climbing a

01:10:32.840 - 01:10:52.760

mountain. Mm. Um, that we were heading for trouble. You know, and when the journalist turned up, we, he suspected that there was something going on. We saw this car one Sunday up the lane. And then I went to work and of course they broke every rule in the book because they went on hospital property to try and get a photo, they didn t get it. And then

01:10:52.760 - 01:11:12.700

they came to the house. And I just said, well, look, I don t feel safe actually. Mm. Um, and, and, and work, this was the, the hospital where I d had trouble with the CEO. They were brilliant. The press office were brilliant. I went into the press office the next day and she said, Right, you re off to Worthing Herald. You know, you re going to have an

01:11:12.700 - 01:11:38.280

interview. Uh, we re going to get it to the Press Association so that the Sun can t get an exclusive. And it ll be your story, not their version of it. Um, so all that was good. There were a lot of hurdles. So I think, you can t say it s easier for people now. It s not easy for clergy, I don t think. Mm. Because it is a public role and people have

01:11:38.280 - 01:12:10.480

got used to you in a certain role. Um, and the hierarchy are fearful. So the, the, the clergy who, just prior to me was Carol Stone, the late Carol Stone, and she and I were at Theological College together with no idea that we had this similar identity. Uh, she transitioned public, very publicly in 2000. Then I come along in 2001. Mm. The next person,

01:12:11.420 - 01:12:39.580

2000 and two, three, leave parish ministry. The next one leaves parish ministry with a, with a view to coming back but the bishop doesn t take them back. It s not a good story for those who transition as clergy. If you transitioned and come forward as a candidate for ordination, that seems to go better. Mm. And you can see, you can see why. And of course,

01:12:40.580 - 01:13:05.960

all the other clergy who ve transitioned have all been married. And the ones who, I think who transitioned prior, prior to coming forward. So, when they transition, they become, if they re still married, they become lesbian, don t they? They re the opposite to what s happened to Yeah. to us. So we ve been, we ve been, what, what s happened to us then?

01:13:05.960 - 01:13:32.960

We ve, we ve, we ve sort of conformed to the heterosexual norm. Mm. So now get, you know, like my previous bishop, um, I got a Christmas, I would get a Christmas card to both of us. Yeah. Whereas I don t think gay clergy necessarily would get, or partnered wouldn t, they might do, I don t know. And I felt really, I felt guilty about that,

01:13:33.020 - 01:13:59.240

like, I did feel guilty about that, which is why I was glad I was part of Changing Attitude. So I was the first trans trustee. Mm. And I, I did seven years in that role. Mm. I mean, we had three trans trustees at one point, which was great. I had two other colleagues. Um, and we were, we represented different constituencies of transgender. Um, but I absolutely loved

01:13:59.240 - 01:14:20.280

doing that. Colleen and I were at theological college as well, the then director. Mm. And it was a, it was wonderful both from a, from a spiritual point of view because, and, and a theological point of view because there was, it was such a, um, the, the, the, um, the residentials each year, it was such a sort of powerhouse of ideas. And I ve got

01:14:20.280 - 01:14:43.560

sort of practical skills. I like doing minutes and, and facilitating and stuff like that. So, um, I could contribute a lot and get a lot out of it. Yeah. Um, so what, um, I need to draw to a close soon. Mm. What other organisations are you involved in? So I was on the Sybil s committee for 10 years. Yeah. And, um, LGCM, I ve always been a member

01:14:43.560 - 01:15:07.300

but never been part of the, um. Leadership. No. Yeah. Are you, um, still a member? I m still a member. And I went to see Richard after I transitioned. Mm. Because, you know, I m one of his out gay priests and then I m suddenly changing. So I thought, well, I ve better tell him what, the background, why it s happened, so that he understands. And

01:15:07.300 - 01:15:40.540

apologise that he s losing, you know. But by 2002, one or two, there must have been more out gay clergy by then. Um, and yes, and change, and changing attitude. Have I been part of anything else? I ve done an awful lot of speaking in that role. I work closely with Sharon Ferguson. Yeah. So within the Sybils, Michelle O Brien and I, we ve collaborated,

01:15:40.540 - 01:16:04.160

we collaborated on, um, a book, some guidance for trans people with appendix on intersex that Michelle wrote. We worked together on a workshop which has been running since about 2007. And I ve done it with different people. Yeah. Gender, sexuality, spirituality, taken it to loads of conferences. Yeah. And often worked with, with Sharon Ferguson. Yeah.

01:16:04.160 - 01:16:32.360

And with Jeremy Tim from Changing Attitude. Um, what else? And of course Michelle and I have now edited the Sybils book which has been just dating a long time. So that s due to be published in, in May. Is that DLT? That s DLT. Um, I ve done the Health Summit, LGBT Health Summit. Uh, Michelle and I took the workshop to the Evangelical Fellowship of

01:16:32.360 - 01:16:56.600

Lesbian and Gay Christians. We ve done it, um, as a full weekend with the Sybils. We ve done it as a small workshop with Sybils. Um, we do it with the York Spiritual Directors. Um, and that s sort of very good because we re taking it out of the LGBT world. Yeah. And taking it into the straight world. Mm. And getting people to talk, because LGBT

01:16:56.600 - 01:17:21.240

but we re so good at doing this, aren t we? We re so good about talking about ourselves, our journeys. And with straight people, I don t get the sense that they ve got that, um, impetus to be, to talk about themselves in the same way. So sexuality becomes something detached about them, about other people. And so we do need to encourage, um, straight people

01:17:21.240 - 01:17:41.660

to talk in this open way as well. Yeah. Which will be painful for them. It d be difficult because they ll have had affairs and they ll have, you know, infatuations and things which are tricky to talk about. But I think we have to encourage this openness if we re ever going to get any more. Would you, what would you say is your mission looking forwards?

01:17:42.700 - 01:18:16.040

I feel I ve had a mission which I ve really enjoyed, um, to get out there, um, to speak at these, these events, to be, um, trans Christian clergy, um, and a hospital chaplain, and sort of to be respected for being grounded in daily pastoral care of, of people, not just an activist. I feel, I think that s been important Yeah. to me. So, I m coming

01:18:16.040 - 01:18:42.960

up to retirement, er, this year, as head of chaplaincy, I ll be sixty-five, so I need to ease off. Um, maybe I will want to focus more on the writing if I can, and do it, do it that way. Um, I still want to have some practice and I teach healthcare chaplaincy and keep my teaching going. I wouldn t want to let go of the activism altogether, except

01:18:43.400 - 01:19:07.160

I d like there to be no reason for activism. I d like to feel that the work will finish at some point, and we have a more accepting church, that the stuff I ve had to live through, people won t have to live through. But sadly, you know, there isn t a sign of that. It s a question I asked Savvy yesterday, that it, the gap between the, the grassroots acceptance

01:19:07.840 - 01:19:33.900

and the hierarchy, especially in the Church of England, seems to be quite wide. And I ll write to people. I wrote to the Bishop of Winchester about Jeremy Davies not getting his, his, um Yeah, he s my bishop. Yeah, yeah. And I, I notice in Savvy s book, she records the protest we did at York, and I was the only clergy person there. So maybe my mission

01:19:33.900 - 01:20:04.760

is to make, encourage other clergy to be a bit braver. Yeah. Yeah, that s a very good mission. Um, is there anything major that we haven t touched on that you think you maybe anticipated we would, or I m quite new to LGBT Christian circles, so I don t have a lot of maybe knowledge that Right. other people do. Yeah. Oh, the, you ve reminded

01:20:04.760 - 01:20:38.180

me. The other thing I was part of was the LGBT, uh, uh, LGBT Anglican Coalition. Mm-hm. I know working with Changing Attitude when we did the annual, um, vision work at our residential, it became very clear to me that there were huge swathes of work that we just didn t tackle because we couldn t do it alone. Mm-hm. And that we needed to do it with the

01:20:38.180 - 01:21:07.220

other groups. So I was very much part of the, uh, encouragement, um, to Colleen and the rest of the trustees to, to try and network with the other groups. And, um, it was very democratic, the, the coalition, because each organization would chair it for a time. So I chaired it. And, and the Sybils are very democratic. I know it s a women thing, but

01:21:07.220 - 01:21:30.180

we did it as co-chairs. We had three co-chairs, um, which worked quite well. And we did it for a year, I think. And so, I can t remember which, there s, I think it might have been Submissions to Pilling that we were the chair. So we held it at quite a busy time. And I was also a female co-chair of the LGBT Clergy Consultation. So I have been involved in

01:21:30.180 - 01:21:58.640

rather more things than I mentioned earlier. Okay. Yeah. So that was a good prompt. Um, I was to be on the, um, what was it, the, the, the mission, the LGBT Anglican mission, but I came off that and I m so glad that I did. It was just very clear to me that I could only do it for six months anyway because of what was happening at work. And I came

01:21:58.640 - 01:22:20.500

off sooner and I, I think that was a good move. The only worry that we had was they didn t have a trans person on there. Mm. So we ve been, we ve kept reminding them that they need to do that. Maybe they ve done that now. Did they have a bi person on there? I m not sure. It always gets missed, doesn t it? That s a bigger gap, really. Mm. Yeah.

01:22:21.100 - 01:22:41.780

Yeah. Okay. Well, it s been really brilliant talking to you. I m sorry there weren t too many laughs in it. No, no, no. Because I know you like your laughs. Um, no, no, no, no. It s fine. Um, so I will be in touch just to, uh, check through the transcription with you. Okay. Thank you very much for your time. Lovely. Thank you.