00:00:00.000 - 00:00:33.020

Perhaps you could say something about your early life in rural Ireland and your upbringing and so on. Oh my gosh, all right. Yes, I'm oh my gosh because it's a long time ago but and also I've been out of Ireland for 50 years which is a very long time and I guess it wasn't in any way different than a girl or boy growing up in any

00:00:33.760 - 00:01:10.520

rural, although I grew up in a town, it was a small town, a market town and in the 50s Ireland was very poor, as my father used to say when the English were here there were some rich, now we're all poor. So I knew that but because everybody on my street you know there was no quote-unquote class distinction

00:01:11.540 - 00:01:45.140

the doctor, lawyers, daughter, son mixed with the labourer, carpenters, family and the church was very central to our lives and became the sort of broadway theatre of our youth, everything happened around the church. I would guess looking back part of the reason is because it was free. And very powerful as well. Well it was very powerful but

00:01:45.140 - 00:02:23.740

of course we didn't have that sense until much later, although you would have to be blind not to know that the bishop, as he was called the Lord Bishop, lived in a palace, the rest of us lived in ordinary houses and he was addressed as my lord and the priests. In my experience the priests were the ones who attracted me to priesthood, they were very good men. I had no bad experience

00:02:24.620 - 00:02:57.140

of priesthood even though I was an altar boy from the age of eight and spent a lot of my time around the cathedral serving and taking care of priests and they were very good, very generous, very committed, materially not well off but better off than the rest of us. You know they had central healing, we didn't, but there was no ostentatiousness of any kind. And it's quite

00:02:57.140 - 00:03:32.700

interesting in this, you know we're much more aware now of some of the abusive activities of clergy, were you aware of any of that going on? No there wasn't anything in my town nor has there been any charge brought whatsoever and I would be surprised if there was. They were, what would I say, I was going to use, they were very spartan kind of strict,

00:03:35.120 - 00:04:08.440

not austere but unworldly kind of men and we also had monks in the town, Franciscan monks, you know a town that had been founded by the Franciscans on a beautiful abbey that was destroyed during the Cromwellian invasions, ruins still there, but they came back to the town after Catholic emancipation and built another church and they were the favoured

00:04:08.440 - 00:04:36.140

monks for confession and spiritual direction. And all the property and schools and hospitals and orphanages and were all run by you know nuns, priests, brothers. So it sounds that that was a very positive experience, positive role models. Well certainly of the church side, the school side that was run by the Christian Brothers was not.

00:04:36.380 - 00:05:11.380

Yeah. It was not. They have another reputation. It was a negative experience as a fellow Irishman would say George Bernard Shaw, my schooling spoiled my education. I couldn't wait to get out of grammar school or high school, primary school. To say I didn't like it is an understatement. They were cruel. While there was some sexual abuse that I was aware of, the primary abuse in my mind

00:05:11.380 - 00:05:45.960

was the psycho-emotional, physical cruelty exercised by some of these men, religious and lay. I mean to be beaten was an automatic. I mean you were beaten for looking crooked and with the resulting consequence that when I went to college, and this may sound a bit pretentious, but I was surprised to discover I was intelligent.

00:05:47.860 - 00:06:14.320

Because I had no problem. Whereas in school I lived in dread. So it's an awful model of education isn't it? Oh the worst. Yeah. I was aware of it in the 80s with friends in Dublin who went to Christian Brothers schools and it was still going on. It was extraordinary. Yes. I have no doubt that some of these men were sadists and got sexual

00:06:17.400 - 00:06:46.000

pleasure from beating boys. So sense of vocation began to... Yeah do you see that was parallel then with the priests who were not physically abusive in any way, shape or form. Were holy men, ordinary men and did their job and brought us to God, whatever that means.

00:06:46.440 - 00:07:16.540

I mean they certainly did that, however one perceives. Of course I fell in love with the especially the pre-Vatican II ritual of the Tredentine Mass. As we say here in England, the smells and bells, the wonderful vestments, everyone who died in the town, there were only 8,000 people in the town,

00:07:16.940 - 00:07:44.060

but everyone had a solemn Requiem Mass, irrespective of their caste or material. So you had a sang Gregorian Mass with three priests and an emcee and servers and a choir. That's quite a theological statement really isn't it, about the nature of humanity and life after death and all of that sort of thing.

00:07:45.240 - 00:08:01.960

I mean that wouldn't happen now for all kinds of reasons. And you know an altar boy or altar boys would be allowed out of school to serve the Requiem Mass, depending if it was from your neighborhood. You'd go Mark and if it was my neighborhood I'd go.

00:08:04.420 - 00:08:22.460

It was very, sounds a bit romantic and it was. It was. But I suppose it's a small community gathered around the church that kind of functions through the activities of the church, so it's right and proper isn't it?

00:08:22.700 - 00:08:48.540

Yes, yes. The Irish have a particular relationship to death and still have. I mean for the Irish between life and death there is no between. And as Shaughnessy the poet said, all our wakes are merry and all our weddings are sad.

00:08:49.780 - 00:09:11.360

And we really celebrate death and still do, people still do. It's a lovely aspect of the culture that has died out in major cities like Dublin, say, or maybe Cork, Belfast I'm not sure. But it's certainly still alive in the smaller towns and rural areas.

00:09:11.380 - 00:09:35.540

That one has to be waked properly, one has to attend the funeral, has to have a proper funeral. You know, proper time given to sit with the corpse, children have to see, kiss goodbye. All that kind of, it's familiar, it's not removed from. And there's all the devotion to the dead.

00:09:35.660 - 00:09:49.080

I mean the dead are not only prayed to, they're prayed to as well as been prayed for. You know, they're very much alive. I used to teach on a course for bereavement counsellors

00:09:49.080 - 00:10:06.840

and used to tell the story of my great aunt's funeral in Dublin, which contained all the various bits that you've described. And I was, as an Englishman, I was quite kind of taken aback by the whole thing. But it was just part of the way things happened, early 90s I suppose.

00:10:07.240 - 00:10:18.820

Sure. So yeah, it's a good way of saying goodbye to a very dear great aunt as well. Yes, yes. So college, where was that?

00:10:19.720 - 00:10:28.180

Novitiate then. Oh right, yes. Yes, I mean that's where I started, was in Galway. I was born in Ennis County, Clare.

00:10:28.900 - 00:11:01.140

And in a very remote part of Galway County on the coast. 2,000 acres of land given to my order, the SMA, Society of African Missions, by account for the use of the society to train young men to go to Africa. And what had put the idea of Africa in your mind?

00:11:02.200 - 00:11:19.220

Well of course, the concept of Africa was Tarzan and Jane. I mean, you know, it couldn't have... I had never seen a black person growing up. I saw pictures, but I'd never seen a real life.

00:11:20.120 - 00:11:43.720

So I had this very fanciful idea of going to Africa as a kid, working in the jungles and working with black people to bring them to Jesus Christ and to teach and educate. And of course, it turned out very different.

00:11:44.220 - 00:12:10.300

But what attracted me apart from that kind of childish notion was during the latter stages of my secondary school education, different missionaries and priests would come into the school to recruit, to speak to the senior students about the possibility of becoming a priest.

00:12:12.080 - 00:12:29.700

And the priest who came from the Society of African Missions, Father William Sullivan, and he, young man, a very attractive young man, I remember still. And that was my teens and myself.

00:12:30.700 - 00:12:45.860

And he had a patch on his trousers. In other words, the seat of his trousers was patched. Right. And that was kind of very unusual for a priest.

00:12:46.580 - 00:13:01.360

But it bespoke to me poverty. Yeah. Kind of down a hill sort of guy. And that was attractive in a different kind of way.

00:13:01.700 - 00:13:20.200

That was attractive to me because priests had come from Florida and California, and they were promising, you know, automobiles and a lovely lifestyle. And of course, we didn't even have an automobile in my home. I mean, because we couldn't afford it.

00:13:20.200 - 00:13:46.740

And that turned me off. Whereas this man came in, and I felt he was one of us. And with my very idealistic notion of the gospel, I felt that he was nearer to the gospel than these guys who drove up in, you know, big cars.

00:13:46.740 - 00:13:58.660

You know, so I signed up with him at 17, I guess. Did any of your contemporaries do the same thing? They did. There was another guy in my class.

00:13:58.940 - 00:14:08.640

I didn't know he had because it was all done. You'd get a card. Everyone would get a card. And you could put down like interested, maybe not interested.

00:14:09.500 - 00:14:23.380

And you hand them back confidentially to the priest or to the schoolmaster. And I didn't know this other guy in the class had signed up until we met at the railway station going to the novitiate. Gosh.

00:14:23.760 - 00:14:28.020

Yeah. And how many other people? 26 of us. 26 in your intake?

00:14:28.240 - 00:14:35.360

In my intake. Right. And how many of your contemporaries from school also explored some kind of religious life or priesthood?

00:14:35.360 - 00:14:46.260

There were two others. So there would have been four out of a class of maybe 120. Yeah. Yeah.

00:14:49.120 - 00:14:58.680

Now they're lucky if they get four vocations across the whole country. But yeah. And we were only one secondary school. There was another one where they would have had more recruits.

00:14:59.520 - 00:15:18.580

So you arrive with your friend from school in the novitiate. And what was the experience like? It was heaven on earth. I mean, I think I'm safe in saying that I could still say it was the happiest year of my life.

00:15:19.660 - 00:15:31.500

Okay. It was pure unadulterated bliss. And what were the components? The ingredients were simply complete brainwashing on their part

00:15:32.260 - 00:15:39.720

with absolute belief on my part. Right. Right. So you hadn't got your critical faculties kind of honed by that stage.

00:15:40.300 - 00:16:06.420

I mean, the novice master, basically, I mean, we were educated in the Ignatian exercises. Yeah. Those were the dialectic of our spiritual formation. And obedience was the litmus test of Ignatius and of belongingness to Christ, according to Ignatius.

00:16:07.860 - 00:16:31.080

And obedience to the will of God. So, of course, the superior, the novice master, voiced the will of God. So whatever he said was, the rule was the explicit expression of the will of God. The bell was the, you know, so all you had to do was obey.

00:16:32.280 - 00:16:41.380

And there was nothing kind of, nothing that might make you feel revolutionary in the slightest? Nothing. Right. Nothing. There wasn't at that stage.

00:16:41.600 - 00:17:09.420

That came very soon afterwards. But that first year was devoted primarily to prayer, spiritual exercises, learning to meditate, examine of conscience, 30-day retreat, study of English literature, ascetical theology, elocution, manual labor.

00:17:10.460 - 00:17:21.960

You know, the usual things. It was very monastic. There was silence a lot of the time. And we couldn't have any visitors or parents or family.

00:17:22.240 - 00:17:30.640

For the whole year? For the whole year. And we couldn't listen to the radio, we didn't have a clue. Television, newspapers, all forbidden.

00:17:31.200 - 00:17:52.900

Our mail was read coming in and going out. So it was a very hermetically sealed environment. 26 young fellows, testosterone very high, lots of games to keep us in our... Under control.

00:17:53.120 - 00:18:24.300

Yes, to keep the testosterone in check. And of course, any kind of intimate friendships was forbidden and quite closely watched. The rule was nonquam duo, semper tres, never two, always three. So if you were seen with the one student once too often, you'd be immediately checked.

00:18:24.940 - 00:18:36.540

And if you didn't conform, you were out on your ear. And was anybody? No. You know, I did have my own intimate friend.

00:18:37.840 - 00:18:49.700

It became kind of them and us. What would you say? It led to the... It was an Indian sort of affair.

00:18:51.860 - 00:18:59.360

It heightened the friendship of anything that we would be seeing. Because it was illicit. But we wouldn't meet. We would meet occasionally.

00:19:00.520 - 00:19:17.380

But nothing in any way sexual or affectional in any physical sense. So that was a year on the Galway coast. Yes. With the wind from the Atlantic.

00:19:18.100 - 00:19:39.540

Yes, lots of swims in the summer in the Atlantic. And then summer vacation. And then the Theologate, the major seminary, which happened to be in Northern Ireland. And I'd never been to the north of Ireland.

00:19:41.040 - 00:19:55.680

I mean, as far as I was concerned, it was another part of Ireland. But it was under British control. And it was never talked about. This was pre-1969.

00:19:57.280 - 00:20:19.180

It was not discussed. And arriving there, I mean, because it was Ireland, there was no great difference. Except that they had better roads. And they had, which we learned very quickly, a far better health service.

00:20:20.020 - 00:20:41.680

Of which we were now able to participate in. And where were you based in Northern Ireland? There was a, still is, a college former manorial house belonging to an Ennis family. That was their surname, Ennis, that we had bought in the 1920s.

00:20:42.720 - 00:21:11.080

And it was in secret because there were huge protests by the local community to having a priest factory, as they called it. And it was, Twas is a beautiful, beautiful one of these Palladian, English, Irish houses. And with its own private lake and gardens. And where is it in?

00:21:11.080 - 00:21:22.940

It's just outside Newry, between Newry and Belfast. 26 miles from Belfast. And there we started philosophy. Two years of philosophy.

00:21:23.160 - 00:21:34.400

So were you, at what point did you become a novice? I mean, was that a? Well, you become a novice as soon as you enter. Okay, so first vows at some point, or?

00:21:34.520 - 00:22:04.640

Well, at the end of the first year, at the end of invitiate. If you are admitted, you're given, we didn't take vows, we just took an oath. Because we were, are a society of secular priests, brought together by a French man, Marion de Bresillac, primarily to go with the French colonies for the evangelization of Africa.

00:22:04.640 - 00:22:34.340

But because we were, are English speaking, they used us to go with the British colonies. And that's why we were founded on the back of the French foundation. And we had six years there in Drummond time, outside Belfast. Again, I must say they were very good years.

00:22:35.600 - 00:23:06.520

But they weren't as plain sailing as an initiate. I mean, we got what I would say, a wonderful education. You know, we had everyone from Honest to God to True Resurrection by Williams. That's much more enlightened than I would have expected it to be.

00:23:07.280 - 00:23:16.300

It was excellent. I would have thought that Honest to God would be, you know, prescribed reading. Au contraire. In our English literature we had Lady Chatterley.

00:23:16.500 - 00:23:36.380

Right, gosh. And was that, would that have been a function of the wider church or just of your order? No, I mean, as you know, orders are very separate, independent. And it's really up to the particular professor of English literature if he wants you to read

00:23:37.100 - 00:23:55.820

D.H. Lawrence or, you know. And the same with our dogmatics professor. He was brilliant, probably the most brilliant man I've ever met. But he was very open to all the new theology coming in.

00:23:56.080 - 00:24:08.940

Vatican II and ecumenism and C.H. Dodd, Henry Nouw. Who else did he have? Who was the other great English theologian? I'm trying to think of.

00:24:11.080 - 00:24:33.920

Was Charles Davis at the time? I'm trying to remember the title of Harry Williams' autobiography, Here I Am or something like that, where he's quite overt about his sexuality. And it made me wonder about how the educational establishment would have responded to that.

00:24:33.940 - 00:24:44.800

Questions about sexuality. They welcome Williams in his theological vein. Would they have done in his more autobiographical? Theological, yes.

00:24:46.080 - 00:25:04.320

Sexuality en masse is simply ignored. Right, yeah. We came out of seven years of what I would consider one of the best educations available to students for priesthood.

00:25:05.600 - 00:25:20.660

As ignorant of sexuality as we went into it. Which is not surprising, really, is it? It was never discussed. In moral theology, it was kind of slid over.

00:25:21.140 - 00:25:39.360

Usually in Latin. Just to aid the understanding. Yeah, I mean, basically about sin and how serious is this, that, and the other, and what's forbidden and what's not.

00:25:40.100 - 00:26:05.920

But in terms of any kind of knowledge, even of our own bodies. I mean, I left seminary and didn't know what a blowjob was. If you said it to me, I might have thought it was a cocktail. And it probably is.

00:26:08.580 - 00:26:30.080

Hadn't a clue. And that was really wrong. Because now, at the age of 24, I was ordained and hearing confessions. And I had women and men coming to me, say, after the issuing of the Humanae Vitae encyclical,

00:26:30.660 - 00:26:44.100

talking about their sex lives. And I had the knowledge of an adolescent. That, you know, you get on the street. Kind of arrested development.

00:26:44.380 - 00:27:02.360

And I had no... It was the one time in my life I was at a shrine, the Humaraean Shrine in Ireland, Knock, County Mayo, doing summer relief work. Which was primarily, at that time, around hearing confessions.

00:27:04.240 - 00:27:23.300

And I remember listening to these confessions, one after the other, for hours. And particularly women with large families saying, Father, you know, I just can't have any more children. My husband comes home.

00:27:23.660 - 00:27:53.260

Some demanding their marital rights, as that's the way it was at the time. And if I have another baby, I won't be able to cope. Etc. And I was just completely flabbergasted and totally at sea as to what to say to these people.

00:27:54.380 - 00:28:08.160

And I remember coming out of the box and saying to a senior priest, who happened to be a very good man and a very good friend, saying, Father, I'm not doing this anymore. This is crazy.

00:28:09.700 - 00:28:23.640

Not only the teaching, but putting someone like me in there. And what was his response? And he said, he was very good, he was much older. He said, Bernard, you're a good man.

00:28:26.020 - 00:28:42.020

You're a good priest, and this is why you must stay. Tell them to follow their conscience. It's a very interesting response, isn't it? That could bear quite a bit of unpacking, really.

00:28:42.480 - 00:28:50.600

And how does the conscience relate to the teachings of the church? So tell them to follow their conscience, and that God loves them. Don't tell them anything else. Right.

00:28:54.880 - 00:29:18.320

And so I kind of, I had the conversion there as well. Yeah. Well, if that's how he felt, who I adored, actually, as an individual, and as a good priest, well, the crack between the magisterium and lived experience opened.

00:29:21.080 - 00:29:32.040

Just a little bit. Just a little bit. Yeah, very interesting. So what was the experience of being in the North like?

00:29:32.040 - 00:29:51.840

For six years? Well, again, we were in a more or less hermetically sealed community with very little access to the outside. I mean, we would now have been able to go to Belfast or Derry or wherever on occasion.

00:29:52.800 - 00:30:04.220

And every year we'd have some kind of organized tour of the Glens of Antrim, yeah, Cushing Dollar, whatever, beautiful part. Yeah, lovely. Yes, of the North.

00:30:05.300 - 00:30:19.920

And remember, it was pre-1969. We arrived there in 66. And 69, the Troubles. Which really shocked us, shocked me,

00:30:21.740 - 00:30:38.260

because I didn't know there was discrimination. Yeah. And the young men that came from the North of Ireland who were studying with us talked very little about it.

00:30:43.460 - 00:31:03.940

And occasionally we would hear negative about B Specials, or I remember the first or second time I went to Belfast and I was walking along the street and somebody called me an effing Papist. And I didn't even know what it was.

00:31:04.560 - 00:31:11.520

I turned to the guy and I said, what's wrong? What's wrong? And he said, that's an anti-Catholic, you know.

00:31:12.900 - 00:31:23.260

And so when the Troubles broke out, and I think my first memory was the march in Burntullet. Yeah. Where they were marching for civil rights,

00:31:23.580 - 00:31:38.680

and they were attacked, the civil rights people by... And I don't think they knew anything about it here either. You know, I mean, obviously certain people did, those in the know, but the general populace.

00:31:39.240 - 00:32:02.400

So when it came on the BBC, as we had BBC television in seminary, and this whole thing opened, I was shocked to think that people would be discriminated against for jobs, housing and voting, simply because.

00:32:02.760 - 00:32:22.080

Because the boy beside me at school was a Protestant. And at this point, two presidents of the Republic had been Protestants. And apart from he not being of my religion, David Baker, we used to call him Bubbles,

00:32:23.800 - 00:32:30.080

he would be excused from a religion class. At school. At school. Yeah.

00:32:32.280 - 00:33:03.660

And that was the only difference. So when the civil rights went from civil rights to... violence, it was very overpowering, because I had known in the North one of my best friends,

00:33:03.760 - 00:33:18.760

Ronnie Pollock, a Protestant unionist, but not in any way sectarian, if I was his friend. I was a seminarian. Not in any way.

00:33:21.780 - 00:33:48.140

It now became dangerous to visit his house. Right. And he told me that on both sides I would be attacked if I visited. And I suppose the turning point of my first political activism was

00:33:51.140 - 00:34:15.120

the infamous Derry Bloody Sunday. When the following Sunday after that, there was a massive protest march in Newry. And I'm not quite sure how this came about,

00:34:15.240 - 00:34:34.060

but everybody, including the priests, which was very unusual, in the seminary was bussed into Newry, even though the march was illegal. And there were helicopters overhead blaring that you can be arrested.

00:34:35.300 - 00:34:52.760

You are breaking the law. And thousands upon thousands of people, of good people, from both sides of the divide, defied the law and marched and said this is not good enough.

00:34:54.180 - 00:35:11.260

That was my first taste of, I suppose, political activism. Yeah. And I was very glad to leave the North. And that was 1972, I think.

00:35:12.380 - 00:35:35.800

Glad because? I could see how it was going from bad to worse. And people were being forced to take sides. And I could see no end to it, you know.

00:35:39.000 - 00:35:51.560

So I left it by orders, really, not by choice. Orders that I had to leave. I had to go on and go to Africa. But it was the right time to?

00:35:51.680 - 00:35:57.440

It was, yes. It suited me. I didn't want to be there. I didn't want to be there.

00:35:57.800 - 00:36:13.660

Because by nature, I suppose, I would have wanted to be involved. And it would have taken a very, and I was very young and very naive and very idealistic. And it would have taken a very mature man like John Hume

00:36:13.660 - 00:36:30.360

or one of the, you know, Austin Curry on the other side, who had that political sensibility to be able to stay the course and work for resolution. Yeah, so when you say you'd want to be involved,

00:36:30.560 - 00:36:42.740

you'd want to sit in the gap and? I had been educated at that point, primarily in the school of Catholicism was a work of social justice.

00:36:43.400 - 00:37:00.940

To be Christ was to be just. And justice after Vatican II meant doing justice, seeking justice, not just talking about it. It wasn't about baptizing black babies.

00:37:02.380 - 00:37:15.820

It wasn't about going to mass. Human communion was holy communion. The magic was dying. It was still there, but it wasn't a surrogate.

00:37:18.860 - 00:37:34.600

For human behavior and for calling the best in all of us in relationship to human behavior. And that, you know, was in our education, the message of Vatican II.

00:37:34.960 - 00:37:52.060

Get out of your convents, get out of your monasteries, get out of your cozy pie in the sky when you die. Turn to face the congregation. Yeah, and get a pound on the ground when you round

00:37:52.060 - 00:38:06.220

for everybody rather than pie in the sky when you die. Remember the canon law professor reporting that, which is, I thought, stuck with me ever since. Better a pound on the ground when you round

00:38:06.220 - 00:38:16.960

than pie in the sky when you die. And a lot of the old Catholicism was pie in the sky when you die. You know, and so even in Africa then,

00:38:17.080 - 00:38:31.860

it was all about education and opening cooperatives and hospitals and it wasn't anything which this kind of very childish notion I had in Ennis. It was doing humanitarian work.

00:38:33.680 - 00:38:44.160

It seems to me to be something of a link, really, between the kind of liberal education. I mean, I don't mean that in its, you know, the more liberal education that you'd received

00:38:44.160 - 00:38:58.460

and an awakening of the social justice issues in you and that seems to be aligned. Does that continue on into Africa? Yes, it did.

00:38:58.640 - 00:39:14.500

I mean, when I went there, I think Zambia had been a British colony up to 1965, if I'm correct. And I arrived there in 1972.

00:39:15.680 - 00:39:32.100

So it wasn't that long after. Yeah. It was, thank you, it was still a very British and we had very good relations with the expats.

00:39:34.620 - 00:39:47.760

Even though we lived with the Africans and the expats lived in their compounds, the expats, by and large, were very good to us. They would help us to build schools.

00:39:47.960 - 00:39:59.440

They would help us to build cooperatives. They would help us to build hospitals. And quote-unquote, you know, they weren't Catholic and they couldn't care less.

00:40:00.220 - 00:40:10.520

You know, in fact, most of them were at least culturally Anglican. But they were very good people, in my experience. And very, very helpful to use the churches,

00:40:10.780 - 00:40:28.380

not just ours, but whatever churches, to do what they could, in my time, for the local community. But there still was residual racism and prejudice.

00:40:28.880 - 00:40:43.280

And they had very luxuriant houses by comparison to the rest. Swimming pools and servants and all that. Coming here many years later and I met them.

00:40:43.360 - 00:40:50.560

I'm still friends with them, you know. When I met them in Africa, I mean, one would think that they were first cousins of the Queen.

00:40:51.720 - 00:41:02.520

Their middle name was Windsor. And I now discover, well, they're from up the road Liverpool somewhere, you know. And fair enough, you know.

00:41:03.320 - 00:41:14.140

And maybe that's why they were the ones I met. Compassionate, while enjoying the very good life they had, you know.

00:41:15.400 - 00:41:31.260

So they had both. Some of them, while racist, I remember the play I put on with all black kids. I had no place to put it on.

00:41:31.260 - 00:41:42.340

I don't even remember the name of it. And I asked, the Lonethal Theatre was the expats' theatre. And it was a beautiful theatre.

00:41:43.400 - 00:41:58.080

I mean, as nice as any you've seen. And there never had been a black. And, you know, I just went and I said, Tony and Lynn Osborne were the people in charge.

00:41:58.680 - 00:42:07.360

And I said, I'd like to. And so we'll take it to the committee. And they did. And they came back.

00:42:08.500 - 00:42:16.060

And I said, yes. I wasn't entirely sure how you were going to answer that. Yeah, they said, yes, we'll go. And we'll help you put it on.

00:42:20.600 - 00:42:29.420

And again, there was that kind of, you know, on my part, because I remember my parish priest saying, you know, they won't.

00:42:29.700 - 00:42:38.100

You know, there's only so far they'll go. You know, so that's fine. If you don't ask. If you don't ask.

00:42:39.140 - 00:42:49.600

Now, I had cultivated good relations with them. I mean, I was quite political. I had culture and I had visited their home. And I had had them, particularly those people

00:42:50.100 - 00:43:05.560

to our church, which was a ramshackle church in a place called Capuchy, a really, an earth floor, huge, you know, galvanized roof with a kind of mud walls.

00:43:06.160 - 00:43:14.280

Nothing. You'd see nothing like it anywhere in Europe. And I remember inviting them. I said, why don't you come to one of our services?

00:43:16.200 - 00:43:25.800

And they had a beautiful cathedral, Anglican Cathedral, you know, the Cathedral of the Holy Nativity in Andola.

00:43:25.940 - 00:43:38.320

Beautiful, beautiful church. And I said, come on, they're not going to bite you. And I remember them coming and they were the first white people in my church,

00:43:38.460 - 00:43:50.660

20,000 black families. And I remember when they come in, Lynn and Tony, everybody stood up and started clapping. And they were completely overwhelmed.

00:43:53.780 - 00:44:08.360

And the people came and presented them with yams. And I remember Lynn saying, I feel like the queen, enjoy it. So I'd cultivated a good relationship with them

00:44:08.360 - 00:44:21.240

and they could see how genuinely appreciative the people were of their presence, amongst them. They not being missionaries.

00:44:24.260 - 00:44:42.500

So the social justice continued in its own way. And how long were you in Africa for? I was there for two years. And it was there I first really became aware

00:44:42.500 - 00:44:55.000

of how unhappy I was inside in relationship to my sexuality. Couldn't do anything about it. Couldn't even find an empathetic priest,

00:44:55.840 - 00:45:11.800

which I had found in Dublin, which I had found in the north of Ireland. There's so many of them. But I, or even an empathetic lay woman or lay man.

00:45:13.020 - 00:45:21.900

And I tried. God knows that I tried. And I even attempted to speak. And it was like talking to the wall.

00:45:23.240 - 00:45:35.820

It was very, very painful. So I eventually left. Sorry, I interrupted. But was that Africa or Catholicism

00:45:35.820 - 00:45:46.860

or a mixture of the two? Because if you'd found the people to relate to in Ireland, why was it there weren't any in Africa?

00:45:47.440 - 00:46:00.580

Well, I remember Ireland and priesthood, like England and priesthood, whatever side of the fence you're talking denominationally. There are many, many more of priests, monks.

00:46:02.260 - 00:46:15.420

In Africa, I mean, I was one priest with 20,000 families. Okay, right. So there wasn't the same networking. And there was, you know, huge demands.

00:46:16.580 - 00:46:26.620

And it wasn't simply sacramental. You know, I mean, I had a little baby. Helped with a cesarean operation.

00:46:27.460 - 00:46:40.400

You know, I supervised school. I mean, it was nonstop. And I was very young, had lots of energy. But inside there was this gnawing of,

00:46:40.400 - 00:46:53.040

there was something wrong. I felt attracted to my own gender, but I hadn't done anything about it. And I hadn't even got the language,

00:46:54.560 - 00:47:07.420

homosexual or gay, you know. I mean, obviously masturbation fantasies were as far as I got. So I requested that I would leave,

00:47:07.420 - 00:47:14.640

even though I was doing so well, according to everybody. Leaving Africa or leaving? Leave Africa.

00:47:14.720 - 00:47:32.260

Okay. To return to Ireland, to simply, I was very vague about it, to re-evaluate my spiritual life

00:47:32.260 - 00:47:42.380

or my relationship to Africa and the priesthood. But I definitely got across to my superiors that I'm not happy and I cannot stay on much longer.

00:47:42.960 - 00:47:54.800

And they, in their own long history in Africa, over a hundred years, you know, they have had a long and a lot of experience of men breaking down

00:47:54.800 - 00:48:00.520

for all kinds of reasons. Yeah, sure. Turning to alcohol, et cetera. And they don't want that, you know,

00:48:00.600 - 00:48:11.320

they don't want, they try to say, well, you know, we'll get you out of here as soon as we can. And so I came back

00:48:12.140 - 00:48:22.860

and I went to our major seminary, which at this time had transferred from the north of Ireland to Dublin, Maynooth, you know, Maynooth,

00:48:23.200 - 00:48:36.180

founded by Elizabeth I, to keep the Irish from being revolutionary. Didn't succeed. And I went there and spoke to a man

00:48:36.180 - 00:48:44.260

that I had known in seminary and I basically confessed to him everything that was going on. Yeah.

00:48:44.540 - 00:48:57.900

Same-sex attraction, masturbatory fantasies, et cetera, et cetera. And thank goodness he turned out to be straight. I say that deliberately

00:48:57.900 - 00:49:08.340

because my best priest friends have been straight priest friends. Is that a surprise? When they're at home with their sexuality,

00:49:08.500 - 00:49:15.840

I suppose is really what I'm saying. If one approaches a woman or a man who's not at home, then it's more trouble. Yeah.

00:49:16.780 - 00:49:27.460

He was straight and he was at home in his straightness. And he said, you know, would you like to go and study psychology? Which of course is kind of like,

00:49:27.660 - 00:49:36.820

everybody studying psychology needs help. And I'm sure he was thinking of that. And I said, I would, yeah. Because I was interested in the subject.

00:49:37.620 - 00:49:52.540

So I said, how about going to Boston? They have a very good MS in psychology. And I said, yeah. I had been to the States in 69

00:49:52.540 - 00:50:04.220

to work in order to pay for my education in seminary because we had to contribute. And I worked in New York as a singing waiter, believe it or not.

00:50:04.360 - 00:50:10.060

Right, gosh. Yeah. My first Broadway appearance and not my last. I'm done.

00:50:10.260 - 00:50:25.820

I hope. But the time there was wonderful. So I said, yes. Now, of course, we had to jump all kinds of hurdles.

00:50:26.060 - 00:50:32.820

It's not, the Catholic church is an army. Did the order have a base in Boston or? Yes, we places all over the world. Yeah.

00:50:32.980 - 00:50:44.580

The order. But I mean, you don't just jump in to do an MS in psychology because you're having problems. But he was able to, his,

00:50:47.180 - 00:51:02.060

what shall I say, authority. He was a superior in our college. And therefore he had rank and he was able to use it. And I ended up going back to New York, Boston.

00:51:02.900 - 00:51:21.540

New York asked, could we send a priest, New York Archdiocese? Could our order send a priest who would like to study in New York? And they would take care of him, give him a place to live and a stipend.

00:51:22.780 - 00:51:40.240

As long as he would do some parish work to help out. And he could also go to school. So I switched from Boston College to Fordham University, New York City, where I arrived in August 1975.

00:51:42.600 - 00:52:10.700

And I told you this space before, I think, but it doesn't matter. I went to the university and the mentor of Father Tom Hennessy, S.J., he saw my credits as things are done in credits here, as you know. And he said, OK, we want you to get B plus A average,

00:52:10.860 - 00:52:31.060

which you seemingly will have no problem. But you will also, in order to be admitted, and this is my instruction, very Jesuitical, non-directive, my instruction, you will have to go into therapy.

00:52:34.300 - 00:52:51.260

And if you need help in finding someone, I'll find. And of course, he knew. I mean, he was probably a qualified psychologist himself. So he could see between the lines, which wasn't very difficult.

00:52:51.680 - 00:53:07.500

So I entered into psychoanalysis for two years. And it was there I uncovered what was bothering me and named it as gay. Yeah. And came out as gay.

00:53:07.500 - 00:53:51.700

And that was very difficult, very difficult, because that was 1975, 76. And the American Psychiatric Association had just declassified homosexuality as an illness. And the lid came off, and, of course, I couldn't have been in a better city at a better time. And I got very involved, and I'm making a little detour.

00:53:51.700 - 00:54:26.060

At that same time, a man contacted me from Ireland who had been this professor in seminary who introduced me to all these great theologians, Anglican and Catholic. And as I have already said, the most brilliant man I've ever met, Peter O'Connor. He phoned me in my rectory to know, could he come and see me?

00:54:28.420 - 00:54:48.520

And I don't know what's the right euphemism here, whether this was the mountain coming to Mohammed or Mohammed coming. I suppose it was the mountain coming to Mohammed, to know, could I help him? I would do anything for you.

00:54:49.120 - 00:55:03.380

Me help you? You're my hero, my professor, my confessor, my inspiration. He said, yes, I have to come and speak to you. So I arranged that.

00:55:03.880 - 00:55:20.020

He could come to speak to me, and I arranged accommodation for him. And basically, he came out to me as gay. Which, you know, just blew the top of my head off. You had no...

00:55:20.020 - 00:55:35.600

I had no idea. And he had saved me in seminary from being thrown out when I was caught in sexual play with another student. And the automatic was dismissal.

00:55:35.740 - 00:55:54.680

Whether it was another man or woman, didn't matter. OK. And he didn't dismiss me because he now told me that he knew he was gay himself. And were you the first person that he told?

00:55:54.980 - 00:56:17.840

Or why did he come to you? I don't think I was the first person he told, but I think he had remembered that incident. Yeah. And it didn't take rocket science for him to gauge that when I had left Africa unhappy,

00:56:17.980 - 00:56:30.280

that would have gone out amongst the brethren. You know how incestuous orders and clerics and all this can be. That would have gone out. And now he was going to study psychology.

00:56:31.780 - 00:56:43.780

It's a pattern. Yes. So he came to see me and he was now teaching here in London at the Mill Institute. Yeah.

00:56:46.340 - 00:57:05.880

Drinking very heavily, very unhappy. Had had several opportunities to complete his doctoral studies in Louvain, in Rome, in Dublin, Oxford, wherever he wanted to, he could have gone. He had the intelligence number one and he had the qualifications,

00:57:06.900 - 00:57:22.920

but just couldn't. He was blocked because of it. So this is very pertinent to your interview, I think. I said, you've got to find someone in England.

00:57:24.000 - 00:57:32.620

And I didn't know England. I mean, I'd be in England, but I didn't know. I didn't know London. I'd be, but you've got to find someone in London.

00:57:34.380 - 00:58:02.360

To whom you can speak a therapist, someone who, if possible, is both theology and psychology, a priest, but don't go near a Catholic priest. And did he take your advice? And he kind of said, well, I said, don't go near a Catholic priest.

00:58:02.860 - 00:58:13.020

I said, you're older than me. You're brighter than me. You're more experienced than me. But from my limited experience, stay away.

00:58:14.940 - 00:58:29.280

They're trouble. Arrested development. And between jigs and reels, and this is very on target, who did he find? Jim Cotter.

00:58:29.280 - 00:58:36.860

Right. My introduction to LGCM. Okay. My introduction to Malcolm Johnson.

00:58:37.140 - 00:58:47.280

Yeah. My introduction to Richard Kirkwood. My introduction to Eric James. My introduction to the clique of cliques within the Anglican communion.

00:58:48.740 - 00:59:06.020

And what a wonderful introduction that was. So he went to Jim, whom he used to call Daddy Cotter. Instead of Father Cotter. And Jim was very helpful to him, including John Lee.

00:59:06.560 - 00:59:24.960

Right. Another great friend. And I came over here to Peter in the summer of 79. And he was resident in our house, SMA here,

00:59:24.960 - 00:59:39.760

seeing Jim Cotter, attending church at St. Bathurst. Right. Where Malcolm Johnson was the area dean of London. And he brought me to meet both Malcolm.

00:59:41.320 - 00:59:45.180

John Lee was there. John was working for Malcolm at the time. As curate. Yeah, yeah.

00:59:45.400 - 01:00:00.600

And Jim Cotter was always doing his own thing somewhere. I think he was something to Anglican students in... Where? Just outside London.

01:00:01.120 - 01:00:07.900

Right. He hadn't completely moved out, as he did. Yeah, yeah. He was still more attached to the institution.

01:00:09.860 - 01:00:23.280

And I met Richard Kirker, and I joined HUCM. Right. Because I had now joined Dignity in New York, but LGCM was the nearest thing to it here. Yeah.

01:00:23.500 - 01:00:29.840

Albeit they're very different... What would you say? Very different babies. Organizations.

01:00:30.020 - 01:00:43.500

Yeah, very different. And kept up my membership over... Even though I was resident and living in New York. And got all the...

01:00:47.220 - 01:01:06.340

Thomas Harding lectures sent to me, because they used to make pamphlets of them. Oh, right, okay. Bought everything that... Remember that he was the first major theologian of any mainline church

01:01:07.720 - 01:01:21.260

to write something on theology and same-sex. He's dead not that long ago. Very simple pastoral book. Priest.

01:01:22.760 - 01:01:26.700

No, it's not ringing any bells. Very famous. Right. Not Jack Dominion?

01:01:27.460 - 01:01:32.520

No, he's Catholic. He's an Anglican man. Right. Right.

01:01:34.600 - 01:01:53.680

Can't think. Can't think. So, Peter saw Jim as his counselor and eventually, with Jim and John Lee's support... Malcolm in the distance.

01:01:55.040 - 01:02:15.840

Malcolm didn't do that kind of work that Jim did. Uh, he... Peter took a leaf of absence from priesthood and decided to come and live in New York. Where he died of AIDS, unfortunately, within two years.

01:02:16.720 - 01:02:33.820

So, I'll turn that off. I'll turn it off. Sorry. And, uh, he came to New York and died of AIDS.

01:02:34.120 - 01:02:46.480

Which is a whole other story. Yeah. And, uh, I continued my work in New York and, um, we're up to where now?

01:02:46.940 - 01:02:54.800

I've been in New York and... Sort of like... So, my link into LGCM, which is very important. Yeah.

01:02:54.920 - 01:03:05.440

And how I got involved and how I got... And I said this at Jim Carter's funeral. Right. Which I had a few words to say at in St. Martin, not the funeral,

01:03:05.620 - 01:03:10.840

although I was at the funeral in Aberdarm, I think. Yes. Yes. Yes.

01:03:11.540 - 01:03:24.060

And, uh, I went to that. But I also spoke at St. Martin in the field. It's a memorial. And I emphasized, as Jim asked me, God rest him.

01:03:24.940 - 01:03:38.420

And if he is not resting in God, there is no God. He was such a good man. Taught me how to live and die, Jim Carter. I was with him two weeks before he died.

01:03:39.720 - 01:03:51.340

I never met him, but his writings are just, um... Oh, Mark. He was no saint in that kind of crazy sense of the word. A very human saint.

01:03:51.880 - 01:04:12.980

But he was a really, really humble, good priest. And he... I said, I hope you know, speaking to the congregation, that he was important in the Church of England.

01:04:14.820 - 01:04:29.360

But he was co-equally important in the Church of Rome, where we couldn't find a priest to equal him, that would listen to our story about what it was to be human and gay. Yeah.

01:04:30.160 - 01:04:37.360

He was there in the front lines. And he took us in. And he didn't know a lot himself. He was struggling.

01:04:38.100 - 01:04:52.840

He was being both his own mentor and our counselor. Right, that's, yeah. And this is way back in the 70s. And, you know, it was well taken because it was well meant.

01:04:53.620 - 01:05:14.200

But he was a prophet in his own right. But there's something about your generation, I think. And as I, you know, the conversation with Malcolm as well, where every step was a learning experience for you and for the whole church.

01:05:15.320 - 01:05:31.300

And that, to people of my generation, I kind of, I suppose, I think, you know, if you hadn't had the courage to take the steps, then we would actually now be in a completely different place. And that was very much a case of Malcolm's story as well.

01:05:31.680 - 01:05:42.400

So, yeah, thank you. Indeed. So, New York and your first reference to AIDS. And that became a really kind of important...

01:05:42.400 - 01:06:01.780

That became the apotheosis. I mean, I, people who look at this or listen to this afterwards may giggle if they know my story because I wasn't a radical. And I wasn't really into political activism at that level.

01:06:01.780 - 01:06:19.340

One could say, you know, the personal is political and everything I did from protesting in Urey to protesting, you know, the exclusion of black people in the Lone Tall Theatre. But AIDS really put me on the barricades.

01:06:19.620 - 01:06:37.880

Yeah. Particularly in relationship to the church, the Catholic church, obviously. But all churches and all religion where hundreds of men around me were dying. And they were blamed for their illness by the papacy.

01:06:39.060 - 01:06:57.460

The first words from the Vatican. AIDS is the natural results of unnatural acts. You know, outrageous. And so, because I was so close to...

01:06:58.740 - 01:07:18.220

I was theological advisor to Dignity New York, an organization of the time of 1,500 people. By the time I left in 92, 600 of them had died of AIDS. And as you know, I had founded the first AIDS ministry

01:07:18.220 - 01:07:30.920

and was part of the mayor's task force on AIDS. I couldn't see an end to it. I couldn't see any kind of... The word courage completely lost meaning.

01:07:31.440 - 01:07:53.640

It was not in my vocabulary because I was at war. Yeah. And not a war of my own making. I was at war trying to save, in whatever little way I could,

01:07:54.400 - 01:08:20.700

the dignity of my dying brothers who were being labeled as sick, sinful, and undergoing the punishment. And that was on the ecclesiastical level. On the secular level, they were being thrown out of jobs as soon as they were diagnosed.

01:08:21.080 - 01:08:36.900

They were being thrown out of their housing, their apartments. They were abandoned in many cases by their families. You know, the ashes of the youngest guy who died on my mother's grave in Ireland because his parents wouldn't accept him.

01:08:38.560 - 01:09:02.720

And that was not an exceptional case. So I went to City Hall in New York in 1986 to testify against Cardinal O'Connor for the gay rights bill, which simply meant it had nothing to do with sexual genital activity, which really, you know, still irks me.

01:09:03.100 - 01:09:11.020

It had only to do with jobs and housing. Yeah. And he objected to it because it would promote a lifestyle. Right.

01:09:11.740 - 01:09:40.780

And his objection was so efficacious because of the political control the church had, and still has, despite all the scandals in New York. He stopped the bill going through 10 times, 10 years, 10 successive years. And moi, from Ennis County, Clare, you know, from nowhere and going nowhere,

01:09:41.080 - 01:09:58.600

obviously, I didn't know that at the time, I go into City Hall dressed in my teddy bear suit, my Roman collar. And of course, as soon as I go in, everybody thinks I'm there for the Cardinal. And the place is mocked.

01:09:59.900 - 01:10:23.780

So I'm escorted by the sergeant at arms to sit amongst all the right wingers, Hasidic Jews, Evangelicals, you know, and I'm sitting there petrified. And, you know, you have to be called up and I had registered to be called up. And I remember my own testimony at the beginning of it,

01:10:25.180 - 01:10:52.920

saying, you know, I was there as a Roman Catholic priest in good standing. And I'm here today to testify to the Gospel. Clap, clap, clap from everyone except those for the bill. Which to me means social justice, the co-equality of all people.

01:10:53.320 - 01:11:12.360

That's the Gospel of Christ, I said, in very simple language. And I, today, as an American citizen by choice, I vote for the values of our founding fathers, that all men and women are created equal.

01:11:12.360 - 01:11:27.700

And I ask you to vote with me and our founding fathers. Thank you very much. Well, the right wing made a dash for the dash, no pun intended. Really, this is true.

01:11:28.200 - 01:11:43.080

And I had two armed police escort me all the way from the podium to my home in the Bronx. Wow. So vociferous was the reaction. The bill passed.

01:11:43.360 - 01:12:07.020

I'm not saying, I'm not even suggesting that Lynch was the linchpin on the passage. But I can say, in humility, which is true, it had a major impact. Yeah, yeah. But it was the beginning of the end for me.

01:12:07.900 - 01:12:20.800

Yes, I was going to say that was the last time you stood up in good standing. Yeah, headline on all networks, ABC, NBC, CBS. Priest opposes Cardinal and Bill passes. Right.

01:12:21.920 - 01:12:35.040

And collapsing the two into one, you know, which I'd say was not true. There were other people. Sure, but there's a fascinating link there between the founding fathers and the powerful institutions of the state.

01:12:35.040 - 01:12:44.640

And, you know, people never like having their attention drawn to those kind of comparisons, do they? Especially by a foreigner. Yeah, quite.

01:12:44.700 - 01:12:55.120

Who has become an adopted son. Yeah, yeah. I mean, imagine the Cardinal probably originated, his line originated from Ireland at some point, judging by his name.

01:12:55.860 - 01:12:59.980

I guess. Adopted son. Yeah, probably. Probably a couple of generations on.

01:12:59.980 - 01:13:18.720

But I mean, his line on the bill was God's will cannot be changed. And he equating his will and God's will. Yes, which takes us back to another part of your life, doesn't it? Right.

01:13:19.040 - 01:13:45.560

So what was the kind of as the knowledge of your role in that kind of? Immediately, of course, that put me to the first and front burner. And they were now trying to get me out of New York, meeting the Catholic Church. And my order, which is not one of the more powerful orders in the church, like the Jesuits,

01:13:45.560 - 01:14:05.820

Dominicans, Franciscans, small order, French order. I was commandeered to report to Rome and had no choice. So I was. So it's a different set of policemen who escorted you from New York to Rome.

01:14:06.920 - 01:14:23.940

Sent to Rome. And I was ordered to stay there in our house. We have every every religious has a HQ, which was very comfortable because my own people protected me.

01:14:24.500 - 01:14:50.920

And I went to school at the Greg, Gregorian and the what is it? The. The Dominican College comes to me again. And I went to school there doing courses, spirituality, of course, in French, of course,

01:14:51.100 - 01:14:58.420

in theology. And. I was. The.

01:15:02.440 - 01:15:30.360

Vatican. Had issued a decree through Cardinal Ratzinger. Who was then prefect of the Congregation of Doctrine and Faith Inquisition. And he has asked me to sign this before I would be allowed to continue this decree.

01:15:31.040 - 01:15:46.400

And the decree came to my superior general. And before he handed it to me, he said, this is political. And you must sign it. And what did the decree say?

01:15:46.760 - 01:15:56.540

Well, I hadn't seen it yet. So I said, it's political and I must sign it. But I want to know what it says. Well, he said, you can read it.

01:15:56.840 - 01:16:16.640

He had an English in Latin, English translation to make sure I. That I would be true to the church in matters of faith and doctrine. And I said, I have no problem with faith and doctrine. He said, then sign it.

01:16:17.360 - 01:16:32.400

And he'll get us off the hook. OK, I signed it. After signing it, I was invited. I and others who were at the general.

01:16:33.320 - 01:16:48.240

To consecrate mass with John Paul II. Privately, his private chapel at the papal palace, which is an extraordinary privilege. If you can imagine, it's like being invited by the queen. To her private apartments.

01:16:50.760 - 01:17:15.080

And particularly coming from England, you know, you can bring your father, mother. And you get pictures and the whole shebang. And the invitation had been sent to my father as well. And I said to the superior general, I said, father, I am grateful.

01:17:15.080 - 01:17:32.640

I cannot say I'm honoured because I don't feel honoured. But I cannot go. I said, this man, whom we call the Holy Father. Has been responsible for the sole murder.

01:17:34.340 - 01:17:58.720

Of many of the men I have seen die. So it was he signed the Ratzinger letter saying that we were disordered in our nature. Yeah, evil in our love. And that we deserved what we got in terms of Abe's natural result.

01:17:59.340 - 01:18:14.000

I said, I cannot go. And he knew me. Yeah, and you all said, OK, Bernard. Has there any come back from any wider field on that or?

01:18:16.640 - 01:18:36.860

Well, I suppose they knew I was on a road to where I've ended up. Yeah. But they didn't think for a moment it would be as pernicious as it actually turned out. Because now, meanwhile, back at the ranch in New York, the church,

01:18:37.580 - 01:19:00.160

with the FBI, were looking for a young man to accuse me of sexual abuse. Can I just stop you before we go there? The declaration that you had to sign, the superior general saw that as a political move. I don't sense that that's how you saw it.

01:19:01.880 - 01:19:15.660

That you were actually being true to how you understood. I understood I was being true. You know, if it said specifically, you don't talk about homosexuality. Or you...

01:19:15.660 - 01:19:17.940

Then you wouldn't have signed it. I couldn't have signed it. No, no. Yeah.

01:19:19.100 - 01:19:35.160

I thought it was general enough and vague enough that I could be Jesuitical enough to sign it and say, if this allows me to continue preaching about the freedom of gay people, I'll do it. That's not how a rap singer would have said it, is it?

01:19:35.160 - 01:19:51.460

So, yeah, okay. I mean, I just was questioning because I didn't see you signing something as a political gesture. No, no. I believed it would give me, it did for a period of time, give me space to continue my work.

01:19:51.740 - 01:20:00.900

Okay, so back to New York and the FBI and the story that the last time you told me, have me... Yes. In tears.

01:20:00.900 - 01:20:12.280

Yes, but I won't do the tears tonight. I've just seen the movie, H.R.M., Priest on Trial, which we showed here for the Lesbian Gay History Month. Right.

01:20:16.480 - 01:20:47.220

And yes, I was, after completing this year in exile at the Vatican, and I had returned to Ireland to my local superiors to be reassigned and to negotiate with them my return to New York at some level to continue my AIDS ministry, which was now in suspension.

01:20:47.820 - 01:21:06.280

But I kept my apartment in the Bronx and I had, the AIDS ministry had continued in my absence. Obviously, I wasn't the only one in it and I wasn't, while I was important, I wasn't essential for this continuous existence.

01:21:07.720 - 01:21:26.700

And while I was in Dublin on retreat, I got a phone call from my local superior saying that the FBI were looking for me. I mean, from the Vatican to the FBI. Like, what's going on here?

01:21:27.580 - 01:21:40.760

This is becoming a Broadway musical of the worst kind. But it's all right, because you've been the singing waiter, so... Exactly. Another notch.

01:21:40.880 - 01:21:52.340

Well-equipped. Exactly. My name in lights, or in fire, if you want. So, he said, what are the FBI looking for you?

01:21:52.480 - 01:22:03.120

And I said, you're asking me? And he said, half-jokingly, he said, have you ever been involved in NARAID? You know, NARAID being the... Yeah, yeah, yeah, Northern Ireland.

01:22:03.420 - 01:22:22.920

Yeah, the sort of nationalist Sinn Féin supporting violence, actually, as well as politics, as Sinn Féin did at that time. And I said, absolutely not. I said, I don't subscribe to violence in any way.

01:22:23.920 - 01:22:38.200

I said, I've done protests for human rights. He said, I can't think of anything else. I said, neither can I, but we'll find out. So, we did.

01:22:42.520 - 01:23:01.620

That they had found, basically, this boy... Well, at first, they said, the Bronx DA's office, that they'd found several boys who had been before a grand jury and given evidence that they had been molested by me.

01:23:03.160 - 01:23:18.000

And that I was a fugitive from justice. I knew this was coming, that I left the country. And that there was a warrant out for my arrest. And they were doing inquiries as to whether there was an extradition treaty

01:23:19.940 - 01:23:36.540

between Ireland and the United States. And if I was in the Vatican, which they thought I was right now, hiding out. They didn't know about the situation. So, all this was published in the States, on television and press.

01:23:38.880 - 01:23:53.600

So, I was flabbergasted. I mean, at the time, it was like, this is beyond my comprehension. But it began to sink in very quickly. That it was serious.

01:23:53.600 - 01:24:13.920

Because now the Irish media, that even then, loved to knock the church. Because the church was so powerful. So, headlines in all the newspapers, AIDS priest on sex abuse charges.

01:24:14.480 - 01:24:22.280

That's what they called me there. AIDS priest, you know, on the run. AIDS priest hiding out in the Vatican. AIDS priest to be...

01:24:22.280 - 01:24:35.820

Every day, something new. Picture of my father coming out of his home. With a caption over his head, even though he never did, never would speak to media. My son is no monster.

01:24:36.640 - 01:25:02.780

Terrible stuff. So, I was just beside myself. And slowly, but surely, I realised this was payback time. By the powers that be.

01:25:03.560 - 01:25:23.180

And big time. And another very clear indication of the power that the Cardinal had in New York society. Yes, yeah. So, my order, my own religious order, the Superior, Conn Murphy, of course,

01:25:23.280 - 01:25:40.680

called me to the headquarters and asked me a very simple question. Same question my father had asked literally a day or so before. The same kind of man. Farmer's son himself, as is my father, and so was my parents.

01:25:40.960 - 01:25:48.240

Which is kind of, of the earth. Did you do it like? Did you do it like? It wasn't did you do it, it was did you do it like?

01:25:51.080 - 01:26:07.640

And then, qualified by, we're all human. As my father said, we're all human. And I just looked at my provincial, as I did to my father, and said, no dad, or to provincial, no father, I didn't do it.

01:26:08.960 - 01:26:26.680

I never had sex with a student at my school. And he saw me and he said, I believe you. How did it feel to be asked the question? Good.

01:26:27.260 - 01:26:31.540

Okay, so that was? It was the ultimate question. Yeah, sure, sure. Good, and it was very direct.

01:26:31.800 - 01:26:40.760

Yeah. And I mean, I'm that kind of person, I find it very hard to lie. I'm no saint. I'm not saying I haven't fibbed, you know.

01:26:40.880 - 01:26:49.720

Sure. But you ask me a direct question, I find it impossible. Yeah, yeah, sure. You know, yeah.

01:26:50.220 - 01:27:01.880

And more impossible to live with it. So I appreciated the directness of it. You know, and the opportunity to be honest. Yeah.

01:27:03.960 - 01:27:10.360

Because this was not bullshit. Like you can fib around stuff that is. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is serious stuff, isn't it?

01:27:10.580 - 01:27:20.740

Serious accusations. This was huge. And even much bigger than I had realised. And as soon as I said it to the provincial, he said, I believe you.

01:27:22.440 - 01:27:41.160

Then a friend of mine, a priest in Ireland, not of my order, who had now taken me in as a refugee because I was trying to escape media. And they had my father's house surrounded. They had some of my sister's brothers' houses to see would I be there.

01:27:41.720 - 01:28:13.480

You know, the way the media are. And particularly seeing I was a big name in Ireland at that time on the AIDS question. This priest gave me hiding. And eventually, he pressed with my provincial on the order that this was big time and I would need every help I could get.

01:28:14.160 - 01:28:31.580

So they found a lawyer, a barrister in Dublin, top notch, through the system. Yeah. As the church has the system. And he subsequently found my attorney in New York.

01:28:32.640 - 01:29:05.840

Now, he, on the advice of the attorney in New York, said to both my provincial and the vice-provincial and myself, the three of us sitting there, like the three bears. He said, you're paying me, my advice to you, Father Lynch, change your name, change your passport and go and live in England. Gosh. He said, you have to hope.

01:29:06.140 - 01:29:20.960

Right. Your prosecution has been authorized by the Attorney General of the United States itself, Edward Meese. And he said, Father, it's not about you at all. You say you didn't do it.

01:29:21.420 - 01:29:38.080

It's not about you. You're up against the two greatest institutions, powerful, the FBI and the Catholic Church. And you have no hope. And he said it to them.

01:29:39.020 - 01:29:49.660

And I said, I remember saying, but I said, sir, I didn't do it. Oh, he said, that's nothing to do with it. Yeah. And he said, why, why do you, why?

01:29:50.800 - 01:30:00.100

And he said, then he changes. This is funny. He said, why are you doing all this anyway? Like you're stuffering.

01:30:01.520 - 01:30:18.640

I'm looking at him like, and I discover afterwards, of course, you're a real hard-nosed barrister. He said, don't you, do you believe in Jesus Christ? I said, I kind of, I'm half insulted. I said, of course I do.

01:30:21.680 - 01:30:37.680

You're the first priest I met who do or who does. And he said, you know what happened to him? And the two other men are, and he's then said to me, you want to go back then? I said, yes.

01:30:38.740 - 01:30:46.120

And I said, I'll go back. I have to go back. He said, you've got 15 years in jail. Guaranteed.

01:30:47.300 - 01:31:15.600

I said, okay. So that was my return. And about almost 12 months later, I was not only declared not guilty, but exonerated. And the crimes turned out it was only one boy making the accusation and admitted on the stand

01:31:15.600 - 01:31:31.220

that he had been forced, promised $5 million if he would do it, that I would never come back, that I would. So what made him change his mind, you know, the boy? What made him change his mind in what sense?

01:31:31.220 - 01:31:50.100

Why did he testify on your behalf ultimately? Why did he testify in the first place? Well, no, what had brought about the change in him that made him tell the truth? Because I mean, 5 million pounds, $5 million, it's quite an attractive proposition really,

01:31:50.120 - 01:31:54.280

isn't it? It is. But when he was questioned on the stand. Right, okay.

01:31:54.560 - 01:32:07.700

So it was the questioning that, yeah, okay. You know, he was caught in the labyrinth, and that's in the documentary. That's for anybody to see, made by Channel 4. And it's actual stuff from, I mean, it's recording.

01:32:08.080 - 01:32:15.260

Okay. And recording by him. So basically his story fell apart because it wasn't true. He lied three times.

01:32:15.320 - 01:32:27.980

Yeah. Yeah, completely fell apart. And then he asked it to stop. And the prosecuting, no, the defence wouldn't let it stop.

01:32:28.080 - 01:32:41.620

Said, no, you have brought these charges, we're going to see this through. Right. And eventually he refused to go back on the stand. And how did the Cardinal and all his men respond to this?

01:32:42.360 - 01:32:59.100

Well, of course, the Catholic Church, as always, is not involved. Right, okay, so this is at arm's length. Yeah. We, meaning my defence team, tried very hard, I'm a very powerful attorney, Michael Kennedy,

01:33:00.520 - 01:33:22.500

to get my file. We knew that the Cardinal had sent me to the Vatican. We knew that the Cardinal had tried to have me deported, stripped, and couldn't because I had become a citizen, had tried to have me sent to Africa.

01:33:24.540 - 01:33:50.380

We knew that it was the Cardinal, his office, put out the word in the media that I was a fugitive from justice. A nun, Sister Karin Killeen, it's on the documentary, had called the television programme and said, you know, where did you get this information?

01:33:53.300 - 01:34:16.560

And the person said, from the Chancery, the spokesperson for the Archdiocese. But we could never get my file. They got a more powerful lawyer to quash the subpoena. I would imagine, if you want to, Mark, or anybody subsequently, or when I'm long gone to my eternal…

01:34:17.320 - 01:34:29.740

It'll still be there. You could now subpoena it again, in light of all that has happened since. They could not deny you that kind of request. At the time, they could.

01:34:29.980 - 01:34:51.680

It might well have been weeded quite heavily by now. Yes, good, good thinking. Yeah, well, as a Bishop's Chaplain, I weeded lots of files, so I know that it happened. So, the trial comes to an end, I mean, that lifted…

01:34:54.020 - 01:35:21.020

Yes, but there was always, you know, as your lawyer said, there was the chance that you would actually be convicted, and so, you know, that justice is done is a good thing. Yes, no, there was the real possibility. I mean, what turned the tables was, at the Christmas time, 1988 Christmas,

01:35:21.300 - 01:35:41.400

see, my passport was taken, I was under house arrest, I couldn't leave the country. And what they tried to do in the States, something we don't have here, or in Ireland, in our legal system, because they're the same, in many ways, they tried to get you to plea bargain.

01:35:43.460 - 01:36:02.680

So, if you plea bargain to, you know what it is, to a lesser charge, you know, the judge said to me, Judge Burton Roberts, he said, Father Lynch, if you just plea bargain now, if you just agree that, you know, maybe you didn't do all of that, but, you know, you made a pass at it,

01:36:04.720 - 01:36:19.320

I will dismiss the case, and you can walk out of this room with your passport, and go home and see your mother for Christmas. I mean, he didn't know my mom had passed away. And we'll all be well, and I was called to the bench,

01:36:20.260 - 01:36:35.660

with the prosecution and the defence, and I said, Your Honour, I said, but I didn't do it. And he roars at me, he says, what has that to do with anything? Of course you say you didn't do it, isn't that what they all say?

01:36:36.220 - 01:36:53.960

You see, and I said, but I did, Your Honour. The principal of my school died of AIDS, my best friend at the school died of AIDS, his brother led a witch hunt, started an organisation called SAFE, and he said to me, what is SAFE?

01:36:55.060 - 01:37:06.760

And I said, it's an acronym, Your Honour, for Students Against Faggots in Education. He said, what? I said, yes. That organisation existed in your school?

01:37:07.380 - 01:37:21.260

So he turns to the prosecuting attorney, Sean Walsh, and he says, Mr Walsh, is Father Lynch turning the truth? Do you know of SAFE? And Walsh said, yes, Your Honour.

01:37:22.360 - 01:37:42.180

So I remember him sitting back and saying, we're going to trial. Father Lynch, you are going to trial, there'll be no plea bargaining, you can have your passport, but we will go to trial, and you will get a fair trial. Right.

01:37:43.620 - 01:38:05.880

That's what changed him. That's an extraordinary story. And you've said, you've told different bits of the story today, so it's, I mean, that's, yeah. If I may say so, with respect, it's on YouTube, you ought to watch it.

01:38:05.900 - 01:38:16.740

Yes, I must, I'm sorry, I should have done. It's entertaining. Plenty of opportunities to have done so, but. You know, and I mean, that's not a request, but you will be blown away, I guarantee.

01:38:17.040 - 01:38:21.020

I'd much rather hear it from you. Yeah, all right. Well, now that you've heard it. Yeah, yeah.

01:38:21.140 - 01:38:51.740

You know, it's, I mean, it makes spotlight at a level easier viewing, believe that or not. Right. When you see what the Catholic Church did to try and destroy me, because I was trying to do some good, and what it did in spotlight to cover up all the destroyers,

01:38:53.320 - 01:39:11.280

because they were the church's men. Oh, yeah, gosh, that's a very stark comparison. They knew what they were doing. It was the perfect crime, and I remember.

01:39:11.280 - 01:39:27.500

And it's not just the Roman Church. I mean, you know, this is, this is very widespread, and the cover-up is, yeah. Incredibly, and I remember the judge, before he changed his tune, roaring at me again, you know, you will get 15 years for this if you don't,

01:39:28.400 - 01:39:43.220

and you know what happens to men like you when they go to jail? You have worked with AIDS, you will get AIDS, Father Lynch. That's what he said. Gosh, yeah.

01:39:44.680 - 01:40:10.740

So, I don't know, maybe my guardian angel, if you believe in guardian angels, you know. Well, I mean, I think it's, you know, it's the upholding of social justice, isn't it? And it's not always the case, but truth is truth and reigns. Well, there's a guy interviewed on the documentary, a man by the name,

01:40:11.100 - 01:40:33.420

a black American, African American, by Bob Teague, and he's brilliant. In the documentary, the Channel 4 did, they did such, I mean, I am so grateful to Channel 4 that this is on record. This is not something I wrote, this is not anecdotal.

01:40:34.240 - 01:40:52.620

I'm in it, but they, and with a wonderful team, have all the major players, including the Cardinal. Oh, right, okay. All the major players, but this guy, a journalist, black journalist in New York says, oh, as soon as he came into the court, we said, here's a dirty old man,

01:40:53.180 - 01:41:06.080

you know, been caught and made to hang him out to dry. Catholic, pre-celibate, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. Who believes that anyway? And, you know, and he goes on, and then he said, when we see what's happening,

01:41:06.560 - 01:41:22.580

and we see him come out, and what, you know, and I won't spark, but anyway. Right, right. I must get on to YouTube. So, trials over, still in New York?

01:41:23.360 - 01:41:36.460

Trials over, I am absolutely destroyed. Yeah. I mean, that's one of the most understated. Yeah, sure, sure.

01:41:36.680 - 01:41:54.480

Totally, I mean, I have no insights. I remember speaking at, again, my great Anglican communion friends, at the church in Piccadilly. Donald Reeves was the pastor.

01:41:54.660 - 01:42:13.900

Pastor James, yeah. Yes, and invited me, and I was very soon after it, because you see, they had the Channel 4 documentary here, and that covered in the press here, and I was, you know, famous, infamous, so everybody wanted me to speak, and I did speak.

01:42:13.900 - 01:42:28.240

I remember him saying to me, are you all right? I said, no. He said, you need help. Donald said that to me, you need help.

01:42:29.180 - 01:42:48.600

I said, yeah, I do, but it wasn't a help that could, I was in therapy. John Lee found a great therapist for me. And John was very good to me. Malcolm was very good to me.

01:42:49.080 - 01:43:12.480

I came here to get away from New York, so that I wouldn't be wheeled out every time there was, you know, and I already had connections here. So, I came and I got a job in Cairo with David Randall, another great man, and his partner, Charles Sofianos, and I did AIDS work, and I was quite happy doing that,

01:43:12.480 - 01:43:28.960

because it was my thing, and it took my mind off of me, and sometimes you can give to others what you're most looking for yourself, the love and compassion. So, I was quite effective in doing it, but I was still very empty,

01:43:29.140 - 01:44:11.100

but they were all extraordinarily helpful and brotherly, sisterly to me in every way, and what happened was, I was here a year, and I was at a birthday party, 1993, and I was the co-celebrator at the birthday party, sitting by the guy whose birthday it was, 24-year-old Richard Craig,

01:44:12.280 - 01:44:36.140

and he had all his friends there, and this guy comes in, Billy Desmond, looking, as I've told him since, like an Erlingus hostess, and he comes up to me afterwards, and he says,

01:44:36.280 - 01:44:51.200

I know you, which is kind of the obvious thing to say, you know, I said, yeah, he said, I've seen you on television, and I said, okay, so will you come out for a drink with us? I said, sure, so we came to the Black Cat,

01:44:53.100 - 01:45:25.040

and Billy, the same age as the host, Richard, was 24, and we were talking, and he said, I'd like to go home with you, and I said, well, I'm flattered, I said, a very attractive man, 22 years my junior, I was 46 at the time,

01:45:27.300 - 01:45:57.440

and, but I said, no, I said, I can't, he said, why? I said, because I know you are interested in me more than just a romp in the hay, I said, believe me, I'm not beyond that, I love that, but, no, I can't, he said, okay, will you see me again?

01:45:58.280 - 01:46:20.520

I said, yeah, I'll see you as a friend if you want, but I said, if you want anything more than that, I'm the wrong person, and so I think I've said, you know, we saw each other, and, of course, if somebody, quote, unquote, falls in love with you,

01:46:20.520 - 01:46:54.080

they fall in love with you, but I was as incapable of falling in love as, I had nothing, and I was nothing, on the outside, I was keep on going, doing my work, seeing people, but, just, leave me alone, yeah, and, that went on with Billy, I would say,

01:46:55.820 - 01:47:37.320

for four years, on and off, kind of seeing me, and he hadn't changed, and I hadn't changed, and I asked him eventually, one Sunday afternoon here, Billy, this is wasting your time, can't you see, I really would prefer not to see you anymore, I said, I've thought about it, I've tried, I said, but, no,

01:47:37.320 - 01:48:16.460

hmm, so he was very hurt, I was very hurt, he left, and I went out for my run, which I've always done, when I'm in trouble, yeah, and I was coming back from my run, and I saw Billy at the bottom of Parkway, and I noted in the distance that he was, of course, the head down, shoulders bent,

01:48:16.560 - 01:48:55.400

and I went to go the other way, but then I said, no, I'll face him, and when I came up near him, he was in another world, and I said to him, Billy, it's me, big, brown, beautiful eyes, looking at me, and I just broke, completely, and I said, I'm sorry, I'll give it a try, a real try,

01:48:57.420 - 01:49:23.860

and we're still together, and you still try, yes, I still try, yeah, and that, without any overstatement at all, that was my salvation, the experience of knowing that somebody loved you, I've been loved, allowing somebody, yeah,

01:49:24.660 - 01:49:48.200

because you were keeping him at arm's length, yes, yeah, I was keeping the whole world, yeah, yeah, the whole world, that was my salvation, and for that, I am humbled and grateful, and

01:49:48.200 - 01:50:17.960

in the words of H.A. Williams, I have experienced true resurrection, yeah, yeah, someday I'll find you, that's his, but I was thinking of, you know, kind of theological image for all of this, and the open arms of Christ on the cross, that kind of complete brokenness, and you know, you were taken, I'm not, I'm not going to push the comparison too far,

01:50:17.960 - 01:50:44.800

don't worry, but you know, the complete and utter brokenness of an emptiness, and so on, and actually the only thing that can rebuild that brokenness, bring that back together again, is love, and it seems to me that that's what the cross is all about, yes, so when that person earlier on in the story made that comparison, it just kind of stuck with me, yes,

01:50:45.440 - 01:51:11.120

yes, Norman Pittinger is the other man, yes, yes, is the man I was thinking of, who wrote the first book that I know of, yeah, that became my, yes, my bible, yeah, Dean of Kings at some stage, wasn't he, I think, or something like that, Cambridge, I can't remember, yeah, I certainly know the name, was he part of the Merton community as well, I don't know, I don't know, or Merfield, Merfield,

01:51:11.580 - 01:51:15.820

Merfield, I beg your pardon, don't think he was Merfield, was he not, I don't think so, yeah, probably Dean of Kings.