00:00:00.000 - 00:01:27.820

So, the first question I wanted to ask you was how long you were at the camp for if you stayed there or if you didn't stay there, and how did you find yourself there in the first place, if that makes sense? Okay, I was part of the gay movement in London and also part of the women's movement, and there was a fair bit of awareness of Green and Common that was going around within those groups, and that's what took me down there originally. And when I first started visiting it was for the day events, and then after becoming more involved I just stayed for weekends, and then I ended up commuting between Green and Common and my job in London. So, I only worked part time, I worked for the steering committee that was setting up the London Lesbian and Gay Centre, and when I wasn't working for them and wasn't doing sets at the London Gay Switchboard, I was down at Green and Common.

00:01:27.820 - 00:01:37.280

Brilliant. I think that lasted quite a good few months. Did it? Yeah.

00:01:37.400 - 00:01:57.840

Just going back and forth? Yeah. Same weekend? I stayed at Green Gate, I had Bendover underneath the holly tree, and although I was never present for an eviction, I did turn up in the aftermath of a couple.

00:01:58.260 - 00:02:28.760

Okay, wow. Yeah, made life interesting. Yeah, that sounds amazing. What sort of evictions were there, people that were being taken out? No, not arrests, but basically I think it was injunctions that got taken out against women who were living there, and against the camps, the permanent camps that were being erected at certain gates.

00:02:28.760 - 00:03:10.940

The same way as they can get eviction orders against Gypsies and Travellers nowadays, they were getting mass evictions against the camps at various gates, and they used to just take everything, so any shelters that had been made, cooking stuff, sleeping bags, the lot, it just used to be taken. So they were kind of dramatic evictions. I wasn't actually caught up in one of those, so I consider myself quite fortunate. Yeah, that is. But see me after that.

00:03:10.960 - 00:03:35.500

Dang it. Wow, and that was a couple of times you said that you were there then? Yeah, but not present, not during. Okay, right, afterwards. Afterwards. Most of the things that I took part in were day-to-day living there, which could be difficult, but not always.

00:03:36.220 - 00:04:11.000

No. It was very close, and very family. Not blood family, but family. You related to people who were there, and there were a lot of good discussions over the fire at night. But most of what sticks in my mind is obviously the actions, and things that happened during and after, and because of that. Okay, so you said you were part of the gay community there. Was there a lot of gay people there?

00:04:12.420 - 00:05:17.980

Well, I was part, as I said, I was part of the gay community in London, and there were a lot of women who identified as gay who were down at Greenham. Greengate specifically was women only. The other gates tended to have visitors of both sexes, although the protest was mainly women only. I think way back when the protest first started there, back before it was known as the main Greenham Common thing, there was a mixed camp there, and the women decided to ask the men to leave. And then the follow on from that was that it became a big women only protest, which gave it a lot of media interest, and also kind of guided the type of protest that happened there.

00:05:18.980 - 00:06:12.540

For example, the circling the base, and the holding hands, and a lot of the passive protest. So although some of the women there were lesbian, that wasn't the important thing about it. The important thing about it was that it was women supporting women, and a lot of the people who came down to Greenham had never been involved in any form of political protest or political activity previously. Obviously with my lifestyle, I had been involved in protest marches through CND, and some things with the gay and lesbian movement, but this was major.

00:06:12.540 - 00:07:27.100

It was different. It was a whole spectrum of people who were just part of normal life, as well as people who were more politically aware. And it was seen as a concern that was just important to everybody, and that transcended whether you were gay, whether you were straight, or anything like that. It was women coming together about an issue that was really important. And I think it really made a lot of people extremely aware of other things that could also be taken into account, and it also gave women the opportunity to understand their own strengths, and that they could stand outside of what mainstream society said they should be doing. And a lot of men did an awful lot of childcare and support to enable women to become that. It was across the board. It was beyond what your sexuality was. It was a coming together of women.

00:07:27.100 - 00:08:49.320

Yeah, of course, yeah. You don't really think about men having the childcare you do. I don't know, I didn't really think about it. Not that I didn't want to. It's just not obvious. It's just not an obvious thing. I know some women left against objections of their partner, but I also know women who had people who were really supportive of them, and gave them space and took care of things that normally they would not have done, stuff that's seen as women's work, and made people realise that things could be changed. It's sort of, the men also had a part in it in the, well I don't know what is the right word, but the fact that they looked after the children in the house and let the women do that, they also let... I think the word let is a dodgy one there. Some men were supported and facilitated the women in their lives to be able to come down to Greenham Common. Other women had harder options, and I think the word let is loaded because you're talking about a hierarchical society,

00:08:49.320 - 00:09:16.880

and women should not have to be let to make their own choices about what they do with their lives, but I think noticing that some men were supportive of those choices and some men were not is the point. So, sorry, I jumped on your lap. No, that's fine. I do apologise. No, I know what you mean by let, as in they wouldn't be able to do it without them, is that what you mean?

00:09:17.220 - 00:10:10.400

I think being let to do something implies that you have someone's permission to do it, whereas I think coming to Greenham Common was a positive choice women made. So, as I said, sometimes the men were supportive of that choice and other times they were less supportive, but I don't think it helps to say that the men let the women come, so that's the language I jumped on. No, that's fine. I think part of it was taking your own power, and I know nowadays that is seen as quite often not necessary because women are more aware of their own power and their own ability and their own freedom to do things. It was less obvious.

00:10:12.040 - 00:11:03.920

I think so. Even in that short time period, things have changed a lot. Probably not enough, but a lot. Yeah, yeah. So, I was just thinking about the fact that with the suffragette movement beforehand, a lot of the men back then didn't want to look after the children and the children would go into care and things like that, and women would have to be homeless and live in churches. I'm not sure if a lot changed. Not a lot, but some things changed when the Greenham Common protest happened, so a lot more men were supportive of it.

00:11:04.920 - 00:12:15.040

I think a lot of men were taken by surprise at the strength of unity among women, and I also think that it's difficult for me to comment on how men felt. But I know anecdotally from women who were there, some of them felt very supportive, some of them felt that they were doing this even though they were not being supportive because it was an important issue. And the issue of family is incredibly important because people felt that they were doing this for their children, so that there would be something for their children, because you have to put the time frame in context with what was going on. There was that whole generation that grew up with the threat of nuclear war. It was there. It was very obvious. You're looking at the Cold War when it was that threat.

00:12:15.040 - 00:13:30.200

And the idea of allowing another country to have weapons in our country was almost like, why? Why are you doing this? Why are you facilitating this? It was like the whole idea of the first and second world wars were fought in Europe, and now what you're doing is encouraging somebody else to fight the next one here. But it was also, we don't want nuclear weapons in our country. We don't want our own nuclear weapons. We don't want other people's nuclear weapons. Nuclear war is stupid, and that's what it was about. And I can't chant the songs at you now, I've been trying to remember them, but there were whole chants about crews and various labels for nuclear weapons that were called out, and those were chanted during the protests because it was just seen as this whole idea of nuclear war is stupid.

00:13:30.200 - 00:14:39.740

All other issues kind of shrank so that there was still a world for our children, and that was very important for the future, for the coming generations. If this wasn't stopped, there would be no future generations. No, it's weird. Before I started the project, I had an email from a woman saying, we've got this project that's happening, and you were supporting it, and would you like to be a part of it? Not me personally, but they sent us an email in the university, and I'd never even heard of the Green and Common protest before in my life, and it was difficult. It's part of women's history, and a lot of history that isn't mainstream, or not seen to be mainstream, it gets forgotten because it's not taught. My daughter knows about Green and Common because I spoke to her about it.

00:14:39.740 - 00:16:04.040

I have quite a lot of younger friends who are fairly politically aware, and it was quite surprising how many of them didn't know about it. And I think although there are a few books probably out of print now about the whole concern, I think the anti-nuclear protests as a whole are seen as less important, less relevant, because it's like, have you heard of CND? Major, major London group campaigned for nuclear disarmament. There were mass protests on the streets of London over a large number of years, and Green and Women and the Green and Common protests were a part of the larger anti-nuclear movement, which seems to have just kind of disappeared into the realms of, yes that went on, but people don't know about it. And I find it really strange that such an event that had such an impact on so many women's lives just has disappeared. It's gone, it's vanished.

00:16:04.040 - 00:17:26.900

I was like, I said to my mum, I said, because it would have happened when she was in her 20s, did you know about it? And she said yes I did, and my grandparents know about it and everything, but it just hasn't been passed on I guess, because you say it doesn't get taught, things like that, but Greenham hasn't been taught, I didn't get taught about it in school, and it was happening when I was born. And it was weird to think that they, not weird but it was, yeah to think that you did that for my generation yet I didn't know about it. It made the mainstream news. I mean, my sister turned off the television and distracted my mother because she saw me on the television and just went, ahhh, because she saw me on the news and didn't know whether I told my mother or not. I wasn't living at home at that point, so I just hadn't thought to tell her. It was just something that was part of my life, but my sister kind of went, huh? So she sent me a letter saying, I turned off the television, what were you doing? So that was quite interesting.

00:17:27.980 - 00:18:00.020

So, yeah, my mum knows now. Does she know at the time, or did you tell her? I'm not sure whether she approved or not. I think she probably approved of the fact that I was making my own decisions, but my mother's politics and I have never always been on the same page, really. Did you tell many people that you were part of it?

00:18:00.020 - 00:19:13.720

Oh yeah, all my friends, all my chosen family, rather than my plucked family. Everybody knew about it. It was the same as participating in other protests. Around that time in London, there was a lot of political activity around mainstream politics and around gay politics and around the peace movement, and it was something that was spoken about a lot. And yeah, everybody knew what I was doing. In some of the alternative press, there was a small alternative newspaper that friends of mine published. At one time, I was writing a small column for them about what was going on at Greenham. There was also some, I think it was Gay News in London, there was a letter to the editor saying, we're employing somebody to set up the Lesbian and Gay Centre, what's she doing down at Greenham Common?

00:19:15.020 - 00:20:31.740

And so there was some comment within the London community about what was going on. I should say that was rebuffed by me saying, look, I only paid to work part time, you know, I do this in my other part of my life, which was published. So yeah, it was all very well known, it was spoken about, it was in the awareness of the alternative community as well as the mainstream community. But I think unless you were there, unless you knew about the mainstream impact of it, a lot of people don't know about it. And in various jobs that I've had, I've declared that I was, I went to Holloway, I have got a criminal record, or I did have, I think it might be spent now. I've declared that and people say, what for? And I say Greenham Common, and people go, oh, that's interesting. And then that opens up a whole other conversation. But yeah, people did end up with criminal records because of it.

00:20:31.740 - 00:21:03.220

Yeah, we had a bit of a discussion about it before we were interviewed, before we all sort of met up, before all the interviewers met up, and there was a woman there also that was at Greenham as well. And we just had six or seven hours in Bristol, and we were just looking at videos and talking about what we remembered of it, if we didn't remember, and they were teaching us things that happened there and things like that, so a lot of stuff had been left out of criminal records. Yeah. So you had yours from at Greenham? Were you arrested?

00:21:04.500 - 00:22:23.660

Several times, yeah. I bounced in and out of Holloway prison on several occasions because the situation was that they would fine you because it was usually considered to be breach of peace or criminal damage that was mainly related to cutting down the fence. And I was also arrested for taking part in a protest that happened on the top of Holloway prison, because we climbed up the scaffolding and held a protest on the top of Holloway prison, because spaces were created in Holloway before the women who'd been arrested had their trial. So before they'd been proven guilty, space was made for them in Holloway. Right.

00:22:23.660 - 00:23:23.840

And it was just like several of us just got together and said, there's scaffolding round there. And it was just a case of, yeah. And that's one that was on mainstream news. Oh, right. Yeah. So yes, I think it was easy for the press to get to. But other people down outside alerted the press to the fact that we were up at a pre-arranged time. You've got to remember this predates mobile phones. And yeah, we stood up and the whole thing about why you up there, etc. came out. So that was kind of a linked protest to what was seen as part of what was wrong with the whole thing, the whole bias against the popular viewpoint.

00:23:24.840 - 00:24:34.100

Because the numbers of people who turned up there at Greenham, sorry, I'm back at Greenham now rather than outside Holloway, number of women who were turning up to those protests showed that the anti-nuclear feeling was really important. And it was a mainstream viewpoint. The majority of people felt that there shouldn't be nuclear weapons there. And it brought the whole issue into the mainstream. It made people discuss it. Because who'd heard of a women only protest since the suffragette days, you know. So it was a really, really good thing because it brought the whole thing into people's awareness. Even though the nuclear weapons ended up being brought there, then they went. And the protest continued until they went. Okay, so they did end up there, but they just didn't stay there?

00:24:34.100 - 00:25:51.500

Well the base got opened, the American base was there, and the whole thing was going on about the weapons were going to be brought in, the weapons weren't brought in, the weapons were being brought in. The base was being invaded to show that it was not a secure place for such weapons to be kept. And it was almost like, well if we can do this, what happens if troops get landed? They could get there quite easily if we can do this, anybody can do this. This is not a secure place to be keeping a nuclear arsenal. The runway was painted on to stop transport planes from landing. Because if you paint on it, that you're not supposed to paint runways with, it has to all be removed. And it was that whole idea to prevent the weapons being located there. And I think there was a great deal of, oh, when we found out that in a way it had all been a failure.

00:25:51.500 - 00:26:46.500

But I don't think it could ever be viewed as a failure, because of the attention that it provided to the whole debate. Did it also provide a platform for women and youth to protest? Yeah. And I think it showed that you could protest. It didn't matter whether you were someone who'd never done anything like that, and were a woman from a upper or middle class family who'd never been involved with group protests about anything, could come down and make their viewpoint known. And the number of women who were there for the Embrace the Base, the number of women who were there to just walk into the base, all we were doing was taking down the fence and walking in.

00:26:47.500 - 00:28:13.700

All the other protests that happened, all the other days that were mass attendance days to show support, they were just phenomenal with the amount of support that was there. Absolutely phenomenal. What did you think of the previous woman I was speaking to last week? I was talking to her about the police and how she viewed them, and she said she actually felt sorry for some of them because they were very young boys, and they actually said they looked scared to be there because the women were oaks. What did you think of the police? You lick arms and you just flop. It's passive protest. You're not struggling against them, you're just making yourself heavy. So being dragged out of that by police officers was scary.

00:28:14.700 - 00:29:14.380

There were people who just stood by and bore witness, and again, pre-mobile phones, so taking photographs was a bit more difficult. But taking note, bearing witness. There were police horse charges. Staring down a row of horses charging at you was scary. It didn't happen often, but it did happen. Police officers who were obviously out of their depth, yes, you can feel sorry for them, but they weren't all like that. I have been part of some creative processes where we just linked hands and danced like a chain dance in front of vehicles because there were not enough of us, so you chain danced.

00:29:14.380 - 00:29:56.240

And when part of that group knew they were going to be dragged off, you just sat down again. And I've had, you know the police riot vehicles that got these cattle grid things on the front? I've had one drive up to me there, so my feet were under the vehicle. That's scary. And if I moved, they wouldn't know where I was, and I didn't know whether they knew where I was anyway, but then you get dragged out and you get taken to one side. And you're either arrested or they just let you go and keep you behind police lines.

00:29:58.720 - 00:31:02.840

And it's really, really scary. Although you can feel really strong surrounded by a lot of other women, when you're taken off, it's you on your own. And that is scary. And some of the police were not gentle, because at the beginning they were, but when they realised people were not just going away, then I think they lost patience. And it can be difficult on process in London, where you might get kettled, but it's more scary when you're separated from the group of protesters that you were protesting with. And yeah, that can be scary.

00:31:04.660 - 00:32:01.120

Definitely. I did feel sorry for some of the American officers. I know they're army, but when you were picked up inside the base, they didn't know how to deal with you at all. You had British women talking at them, not taking them seriously. And you were taken, I on at least one occasion was taken into an interview room on the base to be held for the police to come to take us away, because the American army had no right to do anything. So they had to wait for the British police to come. And that did cause them some confusion, because they didn't know how to handle the situation at all. So yeah, I have mixed feelings.

00:32:02.060 - 00:32:44.900

They were not all bad, but some of them were really heavy handed. Yeah, that's not good, but that's a lot of information to... I'm not going to tar everyone with the same brush. Like any group, they're all good and they're all bad. And there are situations that are beyond people's experience, and they don't know how to deal with it. And there are times when everybody loses their patience, and there are times when everybody is afraid. It's just good to get different people's views on it. I suppose that you've had different responses to that, so it's good to be able to sort of take a picture of it.

00:32:46.520 - 00:32:54.640

I haven't asked you any questions yet. Sorry! Which is good, I suppose. Me talking for England.

00:32:56.720 - 00:33:34.580

It's funny how you just sort of think of questions that you've never thought before, from what you're saying. Not that I wanted it to be a Q&A, but some of these questions I'm getting are quite good ones. A lot of us wanted to know how the day-to-day running of the camp happened, like sanitary products, food, things like that. How it got into the camp, people coming in? You took what you could. There were people who turned up with donations.

00:33:38.080 - 00:34:34.080

You know there were gates all the way around it, so when I'm talking about Green Gate or Red Gate or Blue Gate, that was a way to kind of, so we knew where we were talking about. And so other people knew. Different camps organised in different ways. Some of them only had, this is my, I might not have this right, but I think some of them were only, I don't think all of them were permanently covered by women. I might be wrong with that, but I know some were bigger than others. Some had more obvious permanent. But you did get people turning up with donations of, I don't need money, that was kind of irrelevant. It was things like sleeping bags, it was things like food, it was things like sanitary products.

00:34:35.840 - 00:35:29.880

I know there was, toilets were dug. I think the colloquial term is shit bits. Toilets were dug. And it was the same as any sort of encampment. Those were managed, the sanitary products were provided, yes they were used and yes sometimes it was difficult. But it was just like any other campsite in a way. I don't think there were any chemical toilets there permanently. There may well have been temporary ones on big protest days, I cannot actually remember to tell the truth. It's not something that stuck with me, so it obviously wasn't a difficult situation to deal with.

00:35:32.640 - 00:36:19.100

I always took food down with me when I could. I know people donated stuff for me to take down with me when I went down. People were supportive in their own way. At one point when I was going between London and Greenham, there was a guy who was a, not quite a white van man, might have been a white van, but he didn't drive a white van, but he was that type of person. He had a regular route and as soon as he figured out that I was commuting at a regular time, he'd give me a lift to and from and a couple of others if we could fit in the van. We got a regular to and from. So you got support in different ways.

00:36:21.920 - 00:37:03.520

Cooking was interesting. There were camp stoves and there was some open fire cooking. Sometimes it was done all communal, other times you did your own thing. There were no hard and fast rules for it really. It was just keep the space tidy because you look after your space, you look after the space you're in. Some of the photographs I know, so places looking trashed, that trashing was not always done by us, it was done by evictions.

00:37:07.580 - 00:37:50.020

Fair bit of time cleaning up afterwards. Did the local residents, what was your relationship with them? Some of them were supportive. For example, I know my person who gave me a lift on a regular basis lived locally. I think a lot of them got very annoyed because their quiet area suddenly became overrun, like a tourist attraction becomes overrun with a lot of press, a lot of people turning up on certain days for events.

00:37:51.020 - 00:38:38.240

It was an inconvenience and quite frankly they probably were justified in that some of the time. It was when there were large protests. It caused chaos in the local area, not just at the camp. I think you can say although some people were supportive, some people were not. I never had any specific bad experience. I know sometimes things got trashed by people who said they were local, whether they were or not I don't think I'm fully aware of.

00:38:42.000 - 00:39:09.180

These things happen. I could understand people getting upset with this being here. Not so much when it was quiet, but when there were large protests I know people were annoyed by it. Do you keep in touch with people like you around this time? Some of them yes, some of them I know, but some of them I knew already.

00:39:11.580 - 00:39:58.460

It's quite interesting sometimes because I'll come across someone and I think I know you. Or a conversation will start up and Greenham will come up and ask, what cape were you at and did you do this? It's still a connection there for a lot of women who remember things that went on and it's like, oh yeah you were the one who always wore that cape. I remember you, you used to stand at the edge and bear witness. There's a Quaker friend of mine who came down quite regularly and although they would not participate, they would stand there and bear witness and make sure they knew which police officers were making arrests and where women were being taken.

00:40:00.060 - 00:40:48.340

Were they going to the local police station or because there was a big event going on were they going to be there and making sure they kept track of where women were so they could be brought back and collected at the end. So yeah, there was a lot of different ways that people became involved and yet I still have friends who I made there. Because you're close here to Glastonbury and Wales, I guess that maybe is close, I don't know for a lot of people. Are there areas, I don't know how you say it, Quaker community? That's the one I was looking for.

00:40:50.580 - 00:41:57.000

That's what I'm kind of looking for right now. I don't know if there are a lot of people who are residing in these areas around here. Yeah, there's a Quaker meeting house in the next village over there and there are Quaker meeting houses in the street because Hull O'Clocks is Quaker and in Glastonbury as well. But I think it goes beyond. Yeah, I think it crossed boundaries. I mentioned Quakers because a couple of my friends were or I made because it was never obligatory to lie down in the road and link arms. And there were people who could not and chose not and they were never criticised for that. It's just stuck in my head and I made friends with someone who would never take part but would always make note and take note.

00:41:57.000 - 00:43:07.660

And I thought that was a really interesting and positive action to take because they kept calm, they held space and that was difficult for everybody to do because such a lot of it was strongly emotional, was very heated. And to have people who you knew were taking note of who was going where was one thing you didn't have to worry about. No, that was the lady I interviewed before, she said to me that she wasn't involved in the sort of, she wasn't a rapper or anything like that, she was just sort of going for the big movements, the big protests that were happening at the time and she never really wanted to be involved in the other side of things, she just wanted to be there when the big protests were happening. Yeah, because that was important and I think that those were some of the most important times and those were some of the most empowering times for a lot of women. But yeah, they were also some of the most interesting.

00:43:09.160 - 00:43:28.440

But yeah, the smaller events around the different gates were always supported. Good. Okay. I'm trying to think of some directions now.

00:43:30.240 - 00:44:06.440

I don't know if there are any questions on there that people have wanted to ask. That's good! It is good, yeah. It's really, really good. It's amazing how far I've come actually in the last month or so. Just from people having interviews and things. The day that you left for, I don't know if you knew, it would be the last time you were there, how was it leaving camp? Did you know you weren't going to go back or did you know that you were going to leave and that was it?

00:44:08.840 - 00:45:00.380

I didn't know I wasn't going back. I had stopped living there because that had got really difficult to juggle with everything that was going on. And having been in Holloway because of it, it was kind of like I need to get my life back on some sort of level because I found that very difficult. But I still did go back for one-off events. I did still go back to show support and catch up with people.

00:45:02.820 - 00:45:34.040

But I didn't realise that the last time I went there would be the last time. Interesting. Yeah, that is interesting. I've just written an essay about how coronavirus affects women going forward in jobs and things. Has it affected you having the coronavirus? If you don't want to talk about it, that's fine. Has it affected you going for jobs and things in your career?

00:45:35.480 - 00:46:25.900

Having to declare it is interesting. I think it is different when you explain what it was for and people are aware that it was political rather than criminal. But I think you have to be brave enough to explain that and that was something I always did. I don't know how many times I didn't get an interview because of it because you're not told. But taking part in Green and Common was never something I felt ashamed of so it was nothing that I wanted to hide so I was always fairly open about it.

00:46:25.900 - 00:47:46.280

I have quite strong views on things and being already fairly in the alternative community, like working for the lesbian and gay centre, I did have mainstream jobs. I work in mainstream work now. I don't think that it's impacted things for me but it may well have had impacts that I'm not aware of. I know for people it does for sure but I think if you have the opportunity to clarify, if you can get past that first step then I think it has less of an impact. But I think also, nowadays, it has a greater impact. Because I think having a criminal record is seen more negatively nowadays than it used to.

00:47:46.280 - 00:48:02.760

Right, okay, that's interesting. Sorry, it seems like I'm just asking you questions. No, that's cool. There's so many here.

00:48:04.380 - 00:49:04.800

Thank you for that by the way, that was really interesting actually. What was the big one actually, if you wanted to ask more, was why do you think the suffragette movement was largely celebrated but the Green and Common wasn't as? Shouldn't there be awareness of it? Because the suffragette movement affected all women eventually and because there was a change of law and because there was an ongoing mainstream interest and impact that caused major social change.

00:49:05.800 - 00:49:31.100

I think what Greenham achieved was not seen as visibly something that created such a change for women. It wasn't like this is going to cause a change in law. Precisely. Every woman can vote and it affected, like you said, every single woman in the UK.

00:49:31.820 - 00:50:15.660

So it was not, I don't know how to explain it, but I had the same answer as you. We asked each other it at the meeting and I said I think it's because there was one goal and it affected every woman and that was a very known goal, the voting legislation. Everyone was very aware of it whereas the Greenham... I think the relative, the things can't really be compared because the women's suffrage movement achieved a legal change that has impacted not just them but onwards and was specifically about women.

00:50:16.660 - 00:50:58.620

Whereas the Greenham Common event was part of a wider campaign for nuclear disarmament and it was all about a fixed period in time. And although things have changed and although women have become more empowered because of it, I think that it had less social impact than giving women, some women, the right to vote. And I think the right to vote is incredibly important. Definitely.

00:50:59.840 - 00:51:28.300

Yeah, like you said, it's interesting that when it came through, it was only women that were married or women that owned their own home or something. It wasn't for all women. It wasn't for the majority of working class women and so many disempowered. Yeah. But it was the start of the change.

00:51:28.420 - 00:51:54.160

Yeah, definitely. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Do you think that feminism has moved forward a lot more since then? I mean, I know it has moved forward since then but...

00:51:57.060 - 00:52:43.920

It's difficult. It's a difficult thing to say because some of the same arguments are still going on. And there has always been the thing about feminism is it's very self-reflective. So you become reflective on what's going on within the women's movement as well as the impact that women's movement has on the wider society. And I think women felt that they had gained quite a lot and therefore feminism wasn't needed anymore.

00:52:44.120 - 00:53:01.400

I think people are now realising that isn't the case. But I think because some things were achieved, something was gained, everybody breathed a sigh of relief and thought, no, we don't have to fight this anymore. Before suddenly realising it's like, oh yes we do. We've got all these other things.

00:53:03.000 - 00:53:41.260

So I think it got stronger, then it waned and was given a bad name by mainstream press with people saying, no, no, I wouldn't call myself a feminist. But I think there was a lot of that going on. But I think it did achieve some things and then people stopped thinking it was needed and then again it's coming back up as being needed. But I think there has always been also the situation in the women's movement has always been split on a large number of issues.

00:53:41.500 - 00:54:02.320

The same as mainstream society is split on a large number of issues. So I think it's gone through times when it's been a very cohesive movement and it's gone through times when it has been less cohesive. Yeah, it's as interesting to me as I am a feminist now and I don't always feel comfortable. It's good to hear someone your age saying that.

00:54:02.400 - 00:54:22.260

Is it? Because I said there was a big time where people called feminists a bad name. I still think it is. I still get used to saying different words to things but I'm scared to say that I'm a feminist to people.

00:54:23.540 - 00:54:44.960

I don't just say it to people randomly but if they ask about why I'm involved in the thing I am and I say it's because I'm a feminist I feel like it's just creating a war between me and some people. Try using the phrase, I'm part of the women's movement. Yeah, okay. I think that's something I defaulted to for similar reasons.

00:54:46.160 - 00:55:14.560

I'm part of the women's movement. What does that mean? It means that I support women's rights. It's similar, like you said, your mum had different views to you and some respect. My mum has the same, she still respects gender roles and things, traditional gender roles and things like that. And doesn't always respect what I feel and it's difficult because I was brought up in such a different way to how I actually ended up now.

00:55:14.620 - 00:55:34.260

Oh, been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. I know where you're coming from. It's not always easy. I know this isn't necessarily about grooming but it was just interesting to know if you think that it's changed something for me. Just talk to me about it that's been there.

00:55:34.980 - 00:55:47.800

Yeah, it has changed. But then some of the questions are still the same so it's obviously still needed. Definitely. A rose by any other name is still a rose. That's true.

00:56:04.720 - 00:56:20.720

It's interesting to talk about it. It is interesting. I think that's why I did this project, because I just wanted to speak to women that have the same views as me. Yeah, it's quite emotional as well.

00:56:21.840 - 00:56:36.040

When you get home and you think about it. It's brought up a lot for me. Yeah, definitely. I think we've answered most of these actually.

00:56:38.680 - 00:56:56.380

What do you think the police, if they have learned anything, have learned from Greenham? Oh, that's difficult. Yeah, it is difficult, isn't it? That's a difficult one.

00:56:59.980 - 00:57:34.020

I know during the whole time period of Greenham, the local police became more confident in their ability to manage large protests. I also know that a large number of officers were drawn in from outside forces. To cover the larger events at Greenham. And maybe they weren't so sure about how to deal with it.

00:57:34.600 - 00:57:56.220

I think people did learn. Police people did learn. Whether that learning and knowledge and awareness is still there, I don't know. But did they do things differently afterwards? I don't know.

00:57:58.480 - 00:58:17.160

I don't know. I think one of the major things that had an effect on how large protests were dealt with was the miners. The miners' strike. I think that changed policing far more dramatically than Greenham Common did.

00:58:18.760 - 00:58:40.360

Okay. I know you talked about the women-only spaces earlier on, and the LGBT communities and things within those. There's a question here that I want to sort of go into that. Do you know if there were any prejudices? I don't know how to say that word.

00:58:40.980 - 00:58:50.820

Prejudices. Prejudices. Which, I don't know if that's the right thing to actually say. In the camp?

00:58:51.680 - 00:59:12.540

Or that people took in the system? Or you don't know? I never experienced, I was very much out as a lesbian at that stage. I never experienced, at Greenham, any prejudice against me because of my outness.

00:59:18.300 - 00:59:50.820

I can't say whether that's true for everybody else, but I never received any negativity from other women there. I don't know where clothing styles change. I had a patch on one of my pairs of trousers that was two women's symbols linked together. That happened to be the set of clothes that I had with me one time when I was admitted into Holloway.

00:59:50.820 - 01:00:19.980

One of the guards was rather concerned about this obvious display of being a lesbian. Because she didn't know how other inmates at Holloway might react to it. And did offer me alternative clothing, which I declined. I didn't get the impression that they were actively against what I was expressing.

01:00:20.820 - 01:00:56.520

I thought that it might cause problems. It didn't. But I think that's the only comment I can make about my sexuality having been raised. No, it's fine. I think people were just interested in how accepting people were in back then as well. I know there was, probably earlier than that, there was some conflict within the women's movement about lesbians giving feminism a bad name.

01:00:57.140 - 01:01:37.640

But that was back in the late 70s, early to mid-70s really. I grew up in Oxford, so I was part of a very active women's movement in Oxford from quite near the edge. And I know that viewpoint was around at the time. And I think perhaps people involved with Greenham saw potentially the press being lurid about lesbianism could bring Greenham Common into disrepute.

01:01:38.600 - 01:02:02.840

I've heard some stuff about that. But personally, I was never objected to or verbally abused or physically abused. I have an awareness that it is seen as a tool that could be used against women only protest. So yeah, I'm aware of that. But personally, I never experienced anything.

01:02:10.220 - 01:02:54.820

I think it's one of those tools that mainstream press used against them. They used the word lesbianism, or these women are lesbians because they're all together in this space. I think the term lesbianism was seen as a more derogatory phrase then than it is now. And I think it's not called the lesbian and gay movement anymore, it's LBQTIA inclusiveness.

01:02:55.760 - 01:03:18.200

That wonderful warm inclusiveness that exists nowadays has done a lot towards that. And it's a lot more acceptable to be openly lesbian or gay or trans than it was back then. Not that it wasn't acceptable back then, but you were more likely to get verbally abused back then than you are now. So I think it's less of a strong tool against people now.

01:03:19.160 - 01:03:40.200

And I think also then, using it as a derogatory term within mainstream press was more acceptable. I think if you tried to do that nowadays, there'd be a lot more comeback for it. So these things have changed. People are quick, especially through social media, people are quick to depend on themselves.

01:03:41.300 - 01:04:01.520

And other people. And I guess it has to be more inclusive now. I'm forgetting what I'm saying. A lot more careful now with the media.

01:04:03.120 - 01:04:23.760

Yes. About what they say, because of the media being impactful. And also people are more likely to enact legislation nowadays. Whereas you could get away with it back then, you can't get away with it.

01:04:23.820 - 01:04:42.200

No, no. I wasn't around then, so I wasn't sure what it was like back then, but I can only imagine that's it. Well it's the same period as Section 28, and the whole not being allowed to promote homosexuality in schools. So that's the context you have to put it in.

01:04:43.880 - 01:05:09.540

Yes, people having to live like them. I think I read about gay people having to live in secret, like in the 80s. Basically being in the closet. Because sometimes coming out could threaten your job and livelihood and relationships with everybody.

01:05:09.540 - 01:05:30.620

Awful. Difficult. What, if there is one, do you tell, or moments, would sum up Greenland for you? Was there a specific?

01:05:36.560 - 01:06:02.640

What moment sums it up? If there was just one, four. I have so many memories. I have so many memories. Things from sneaking down a wooded part of the fence.

01:06:03.820 - 01:06:38.300

Because we discovered that you could open some of the bolts with a tappy bit and unscrew them. These were long sheets of fence, so it wasn't like every two feet you could do that. So we undid a whole line of bolts and peeled back the fence and went for a walk one evening. And doing that, the mischievousness of a small group of women together, going on to foreign territory,

01:06:38.980 - 01:07:01.140

and just going for a walk in the moonlight, it was beautiful. It was absolutely beautiful. And we just did it. And we were just laughing and not being, not creeping about in the bushes.

01:07:01.320 - 01:07:32.980

We were just walking openly across the airbase for about, I don't know how long. And that counterbalanced with being surrounded by hundreds of women for a mass invasion of the base with wire clippers in your pocket and just going through. And then the sense of community when you're just there and everybody's just singing.

01:07:33.940 - 01:07:50.880

Just singing. That sense of togetherness, of strength, of unity. And you can even hear the song echoing back at you. Women tie pictures of their family with ribbons onto the fence.

01:07:54.820 - 01:08:10.820

Yeah. Times like that, I want to forget the painful times. They're still there, they're still formative, but that's not what I want to remember. No.

01:08:14.740 - 01:08:32.380

Definitely not. How does it feel to be a part of freedom? Proud, yeah. Very, very proud.

01:08:33.260 - 01:08:43.160

I have no regrets. There's nothing that happened that I need to be ashamed of. Yeah. Yeah.

01:08:48.920 - 01:09:04.700

That's why I've never denied my criminal record. Which is all down to non-payment of fines. That's the thing about it, they would fine you. Really?

01:09:04.980 - 01:09:18.680

And you would have the option to pay the fine. And because it was like, no, I'm not paying the government for my right to protest. And that's what the statement was being made. That's why women were not paying their fines.

01:09:19.060 - 01:09:31.980

It was like, I'm not paying. I have a right to protest and I'm not paying a fine for protesting. Everyone should have the right to protest. That's something I still feel incredibly strongly about.

01:09:32.980 - 01:09:46.380

And that's why we went to prison. Because we would not pay the fine. And I would not work in prison. Because if I worked in prison, my wages went towards the payment of my fine.

01:09:49.240 - 01:10:08.040

And also, oh yeah, it has echoes all the way down. I ended up working for a group called Women in Prison. Which was promoting rights of women and trying to support rights of women. And make life better for women when they were in prison.

01:10:08.880 - 01:10:24.640

Things like Suicide Watch. Things like even getting decent hair products in for women of colour. Everything. And I became part of that because of my experiences in Holloway, because of Greenland.

01:10:25.220 - 01:10:45.920

So it just, bing bing bing bing bing. It has repercussions all the way down the line. You see, it's all part of a greater thing. It's not something that occurred in isolation.

01:10:49.780 - 01:11:12.900

That's why I sort of, when we had the meeting and I learned about it, I just looked at all these special needs women that were holding hands and things. And just learning about what they did. I felt proud because they were doing it for me, but also because that was my country that they were doing it in.

01:11:13.300 - 01:11:27.860

It was two hours from where I live. And even though I wasn't actually there, I couldn't even imagine what it was like to be there. And it took me a while to sort of... Sometimes very wet and sometimes very cold.

01:11:28.440 - 01:11:55.020

But always, always positive. I think there's just a couple more on here that I wanted to ask about, if that's okay. I think you've done a lot of them already, in my own words. I don't always like to sort of Q&A Q&A, it's easier sometimes just in conversations.

01:12:07.160 - 01:12:37.920

What did you think was the decision to make a women-only camp or women-only place to be? I think that was a really good idea. I think my awareness of that decision, and this is only my awareness, is that it came out of the really strong desire of a peaceful protest.

01:12:38.900 - 01:13:08.800

The awareness that other protests that had been mixed had become violent. And that as it was a peace protest, they wanted it to be a peaceful protest. And it was seen as a protest. And I think that is one of the main reasons why it stood out.

01:13:09.280 - 01:13:30.400

I think it is one of the main reasons that it received so much coverage. Because it was so radically different. And I think it was a really, really strong, positive, enabling decision. For a lot of women.

01:13:34.900 - 01:13:46.220

Empowering. Positive. It was a wise decision. And I have a great deal of respect for those that made it. Does that help?

01:13:46.960 - 01:13:59.940

Have I answered that? I tend to ramble off. My thoughts take me in various directions. From my point of view, it would have gone in a different direction

01:14:02.340 - 01:14:18.700

if it wasn't made to be women orientated. It would have gone in a different place. I think it was one of the main reasons for its success. And I do count it as successful.

01:14:19.960 - 01:14:45.520

I know some feminists, some women, have said it was just something that detracted from the main points of feminism, going for women's rights as a whole. But I think what it did was allow women to see that we can make a difference. Allow women to see that the personal is the political.

01:14:45.520 - 01:14:59.460

That the decision one person makes is important. And that can have an effect when a lot of individuals make the same decision. It kind of reached a cascade effect. And I think that happened.

01:15:00.740 - 01:15:16.360

I think it reached that cascade of awareness that this is something women are doing together. And groups of women from the WI even were talking. And friends talked. And people came round in the car share.

01:15:17.260 - 01:15:41.300

Because they talked to their friends about it and one of them knew about it. And then it just spread. And I think that wouldn't have happened if it hadn't been a women-only group. Even if it hadn't been successful, it still would have given you all those things.

01:15:41.300 - 01:15:53.280

It still would have allowed those things to happen. So I suppose you could say it never really was unsuccessful anyway. It invited all those platforms for those things to happen. Yeah.

01:15:55.200 - 01:16:19.560

Great. I think I've asked more. In my own words. Have you been happy with the representation of freedom in popular culture, films, books, plays?

01:16:20.260 - 01:16:27.520

If you've seen any. Salt Lane. By William Shaw. It always surprises me when they turn up.

01:16:27.920 - 01:16:49.280

It always surprises me when they turn up. I think it's because I just expect it not to be there. As I said, there was a big debate within the feminist movement as to whether it was a good thing or wasn't a good thing. I think before Greenham Common or against Greenham Common.

01:16:49.800 - 01:17:10.460

But I think that debate is healthy. I think most of the representation I've seen maybe has been positive. Apart from back during the time what we were talking about. Trying to slander.

01:17:12.980 - 01:17:37.860

I'm using hand movements as punctuation which doesn't come across on a tape. Nowadays there's not that much. Back then there was a fair bit. Mainstream press was on some occasions very slanderous.

01:17:38.980 - 01:17:58.000

On other occasions surprisingly positive. But nowadays there isn't a great deal of representation. It gets mentioned as background story for characters occasionally. But I'm not actually that aware of it being brought up.

01:18:00.660 - 01:18:13.820

Has there been a lot? I know there's a film that's out at the minute. Not at the moment but it's online somewhere. The lady I was talking to last week asked me to watch it.

01:18:15.640 - 01:18:26.680

But I haven't had time to look it up yet. I think it's on YouTube she said. She said there's a lot of stuff on YouTube as well. Videos maybe. It's not something I've gone searching for.

01:18:29.240 - 01:18:43.700

It's not something I've gone searching for. I think because I haven't had that need. That's what I was just about to say. I haven't felt that need.

01:18:47.560 - 01:19:01.880

Were you surprised when you got approached for this project? Yeah I was actually. I was quite interested. A friend of mine who knows that I was at Greenham, although they weren't, said, have you seen this?

01:19:02.760 - 01:19:14.920

And it was like, oh. It was on Facebook. I don't even know what platforms they use. And it was like, oh that's interesting.

01:19:15.900 - 01:19:27.160

Yeah I was there. I was there. So I wouldn't have come across it. But a friend of mine who's more on social media than I am,

01:19:27.740 - 01:19:36.060

just said, oh you looked at this. That's what you were involved with. Wow. That was Tracy.

01:19:36.940 - 01:19:50.880

That's what I was involved with. Thanks for that. What about doing everything? I don't know. It came up, were you here, would you be interested?

01:19:50.880 - 01:20:02.360

And I thought, yeah I would be interested. And yeah I've got time that I can give to something like that. I think because my important thing is, it shouldn't be forgotten.

01:20:04.160 - 01:20:17.400

And that's the same with how I do gay history. It shouldn't be forgotten. And I'm using gay as the all encompassing phrase, that it was about that.

01:20:17.400 - 01:20:33.180

Yeah that's fine. It's good because even though you've had quite negative experiences, you're still happy to talk about it? I have had negative experiences,

01:20:33.360 - 01:20:45.960

but I think the positive experiences of it outweigh those. And I think we can all learn from those experiences. And yeah they were very emotional. And yes they can be seen as traumatic.

01:20:45.960 - 01:21:09.960

But I'd never give up my right to protest. And I think trying to take that away from anybody is one of the worst things that can happen. Because you have to be able to hold people accountable.

01:21:12.460 - 01:21:26.040

Especially the government. You need to have the power to hold the government accountable outside of the ballot box. It's got to be in addition to that.

01:21:27.440 - 01:21:51.340

Because when they break their own rules, they break their own rules. So you see the posts on TV about countries that are just completely corrupt and people can't have a say in anything. It's just really really sad that they live in such a dictatorship style sort of way.

01:21:51.600 - 01:22:09.180

I've never been to anywhere that's been like that. We should never forget our privilege. We should never forget our privilege. And if you don't stand up for the right to protest against things,

01:22:09.180 - 01:22:27.860

then I think you are taking advantage of your privilege. Yeah. Okay. I think that's it.

01:22:29.180 - 01:22:33.320

That's about everything. Sorry that went rather heavy towards the end.