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Thank you very much, Diana, for talking with me today and sharing your memories of your time at Greenham Common. So what made you decide to join Greenham Common? Well, I've been a pacifist all my life. I went on all the Marston marches when I was in my early teens with my mother and my brother. And I had been on a lot of different demonstrations. I was used to it.

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And then I set up Totnes Women for Peace at the Totnes Women's Centre, which our women's group had set up. And we did a lot of demonstrations with that, local demonstrations. I've got photos of that in here. And then I went to the first big Greenham demonstration, which was the women joining hands around the base, which was in 1982. And that was it. I mean, after I went on that, I was hooked, as they say, because it was just amazing meeting all those women that were so keen and so fired up to do this work.

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And I'd always been anti-nuclear, which, of course, was all the Marston marches. And it was part of that, the whole cruise missile thing, the fact it was an American base on our common land, and the fact that it was women, because I'd been on a lot of mixed demonstrations, and there'd been a lot of violence, which was mainly led by the men. And I thought it could be very different. Women could do it differently.

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And indeed, Greenham Common was years and years of passive resistance, and that's how it won, because we were persistent and we were stubborn, and we stuck with it. So I lived part-time at Greenham for two or three years, and my mother went to prison. I went to court. I was fined. So what did you go to court for? I went to court because I was caught with a friend tipping a hole in the fence, which we did regularly, just to show them that their fences were quite useless.

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It took a few minutes to tip a hole in the fence and just go in, and we did it all the time. It was part of our daily work there, really, was showing them that the fences didn't work. In fact, there was a wonderful demonstration called the Black Cardigan, and basically we had all the peace groups got messages saying, We're going to have a party this weekend. Bring a black cardigan.

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And the black cardigan was code for bring a pair of tippers. So we all bought these huge wire clippers. None of us had ever used wire clippers in our lives before. Went up to Greenham all wearing black cardigans, and then we stood outside the base and we had soldiers the other side looking very nervous because they knew something was going on, but they didn't know what it was. They thought we were having a party, so they weren't very prepared.

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And then at the moment that someone said, Right now, we all stepped forward and began clipping the wires that held the fence to the posts. And the soldier opposite me said, Oh, my God, they started bringing down the fence. They're armed and they're, well, they didn't say armed, but they've got tools and they know how to use them. And a minute later, the whole fence, the whole area fence that we were around, just folded down gently as if it was meant to.

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And then we all sat on the fence and we brought down a lot of, I mean, most of the fence that day. But it was really funny because I'd never used clippers before, but it was like putting butter. It was like cutting butter. It just went choop, choop, choop. So we had a lot of wonderful actions.

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There was an Easter bunny party, which was, we made a big hole in the fence in several different places. And we all went in and there were several Easter bunnies, women dressed up in Easter, fluffy bunnies and chicks. And we just ran around with soldiers pursuing us and we were put into a big hangar. There must have been at least a hundred of us, I imagine.

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And then they picked us up and took us one by one and put us into Jeeps and buses and carried us up out of the base. One of the interesting things here was that the engines always broke down when we were around. It was really funny. We always used to say, put energy into telling the engines to break down.

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You know, we did a lot of that. Or put energy into an invisibility spell. Several times when I was caught and I ran for it and flung myself down in the bushes right near the fence, I would say, I'm invisible, I'm invisible, I'm invisible.

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They never found me, so, you know, we really believed in these spells. But anyway, the Jeep broke down and I said to the bloke that was driving the Jeep, have you noticed when we're around things break down? And he said, we have noticed.

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Because, you know, when the cruise missiles used to come out of the base, which was usually in the evening, the whole point about cruise missiles was you bring them out of the base, you take them somewhere, and that's where the cruise missiles will be fired from. They're not fired from the base, they're fired from other places so their missiles can't find us, apparently.

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And so every time they came out of the base, often they would break down and have to, in fact I was there once when the whole thing broke down and they had to tow them back into the base again. But if not, we would follow them in tiny cars all the way and then we'd follow them back. In fact, they realised very quickly that it wouldn't work, you know,

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it didn't work because all their strategies were being ruined by us. And another thing that we often did was we would padlock the gates, and of course there were, I think, 12 or 13 gates around the base, and they all had to be open for all their stuff to come and go.

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And we would padlock them, often padlock ourselves to them, and so they spent a lot of time removing them, removing people. I've got a lovely letter here actually about an action that I did. I know I'm talking very fast, I always do. I always get over-excited.

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I got a letter that I sent, it was an Easter action at Greenham, and I sent it to my children. And I say, The week at Greenham over Easter, and that was April 83.

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The week at Easter was a bit tough. The weather was icy, far colder than any when I've been here before. The first night, Fenella, who was my three-and-a-half-year-old, and I froze, although we cuddled together for warmth, because the ground was so bitterly cold,

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it crept into the sleeping bag. The next night, we got hold of some straw and packed it underneath the tent, which helped. The tent stood up well to its first trials. We had sleet, hail, rain, and gale-force winds.

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Some holiday! My children were in France with their dad and my sons, and I had my daughter with me. The second day there, I joined a blockade of the Green Gate, which consisted of sitting with about 200 other women,

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which was peak hour, sometimes we were only about 20, and we sang songs, spoke to the television and press, wove webs for keeping cars out. The blockade started at five in the morning and continued for 24 hours.

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At about three in the afternoon, the police came up the road with a purposeful tread, and we all laid down and began to sing feminist peace songs. And our favourite song was, You can't kill the spirit

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It is like a mountain Old and strong She goes on and on and on You can't kill the spirit, etc, etc.

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We sang that a lot, and we sang it as a round. So we were singing songs while we were on the ground. At that very moment, as if orchestrated for us, the hail began to fall and continued for about 15 minutes,

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and then came rain. The police started picking us up and dumping us in the gutters at the side of the road, which were flowing with rain, and then turned back to get more.

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But they reckoned without the energy of the women, who we immediately got up and went back and sat down again. This went on for about an hour, and the police, all 20 of them, were busy picking up some 30 women and weren't getting anywhere.

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They paused, looked around, red-faced with exertion, and realised they'd got nowhere and had no chance of removing all of us. Clearly they had orders not to arrest us all, so they gave it up. It was an amazing exercise in non-violent resistance.

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Now that happened all the time. And it was about non-violent resistance. We want the common back for us, and we're going to do anything we can to make life difficult for you.

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I felt very sorry for the police, because they were the ones that had to do everything this side of the fence. The other side of the fence, there were British officers and American officers, and they made absolutely sure we never saw or had close contact

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with any of the American officers, because they were terrified of an international incident if one of the American officers got too close to us. So most of the soldiers we saw on the other side

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were British soldiers patrolling the fence just to keep an eye on us. And in fact, well, often we would talk to them, but once I talked to one of them and said, ''Hey, how are you doing?''

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He said, ''My mum's coming up from the demonstration this weekend.'' And I thought he was so sweet. He said, ''Really looking forward to seeing her.'' Another time, I woke in the middle of the night,

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and I could hear rain, what I thought was rain, pattering on the top of my... I had a bender by then. We made benders with sticks that we found,

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or branches that we managed to bend, and then we put plastic over it, several layers of plastic, and then we put blankets on the inside, because if you were in there for any amount of time,

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condensation would start to drip on you, so it was to keep us dry. And then I heard a policeman this side saying to the soldier on the other side, telling him off roundly, because he was peeing on the benders. And often you would get this,

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that the police would actually stand up for us when we were asleep at night, because they were patrolling on this side of the fence. It was a very interesting dynamic. And if ever there was a big demonstration,

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the police would have to join hands on this side of the fence and stand between us and the fence. So a lot of the actions that we took were at night, when there weren't people around, and no police.

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So how did you cope with having children at the camp? What arrangements were there for them? There weren't a lot of children there. I went up for long weekends.

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I went up Fridays. I drove up from here, it was about three hours to Greenham, from here to Newbury. So I would drive up on the Friday afternoon, because I was working, I had a knitwear business in the women's centre,

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and then we would camp overnight, and then we would do the demonstrations on the weekend, and then we'd come back on the Sunday evening. And Fenella would sometimes go with me, but not always.

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Sometimes she would stay with her dad, because that was very rare for her to be there when it was that cold. All the winter demonstrations I did without her. And she came to a lot of the big ones,

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because some of them were great. We had a wonderful, we called it Dragon Day, where we all sewed bangers, and I've got pictures of them here, sewed or knitted, I knitted my banger because I had knitwear,

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for the women, for peace. And then we all went up with our bangers, and we spent the whole day sewing them all together until we made a long, long dragon.

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And that was taken in exhibition all around the country. Which again, you see, we did some amazing actions, and guess what, there were no press there that weekend, because it wasn't a violent protest, or there wasn't confrontation.

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They only came for the protest, where there was some form of confrontation, which I thought was such a pity, because it was so creative, and it was so beautiful.

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But it did go into the Carrie Greenham Home video. Did you know about that? Yes, I had heard about that. Peggy Seeger came down and sang the song that she'd written,

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Carrie Greenham Home, which is wonderful. Yes. And Beavan Kidron was there. This was her first film.

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She was still a student, I think. And she filmed her, and she filmed a lot. She was there when my mother was in court, and I spoke on camera at that point.

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So your mother was with you at Greenham as well? Yes, she came to all the major demonstrations with me. And then, before I went to live there, this was, and then she was in court for Dancing on the Bay.

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She climbed over the fence at night. We talked about this together, and because I had children, I couldn't afford to go to Holloway for, I think she went for three weeks in the end, two weeks?

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So we decided she would do it. I mean, she decided she would do it, we didn't, because I thought it could be really difficult. She was 63 at the time.

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But she did it. I was there the night before she went. It was really interesting because she was really strong, and then that night we were sharing a room

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in one of the supporters' houses in Newbury, and she trod on her glasses and broke them, and she sat on the bed and cried, and it was because she suddenly realised

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she would have glasses that weren't functioning properly for her time in prison, which could be really difficult. And, in fact, we managed to mend them with sellotape. And what was life like?

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Did you go and visit her in Holloway? I was in Ableton. My sister lived in London, visited her, and I've got, again, I've got a letter from her here

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about her time in Holloway, and she did passive resistance while she was in prison and got everyone very annoyed. All the women did while they were there.

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Would you like to share something? Yeah, of course. Your mother's letter? So...

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Your mother's name is...? Bersia Hethcote. There's the women dancing on the base. So they climbed over the fence with blankets

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over the barbed wire. That's my mother. And that was them dancing on the bunkers at dawn inside the base.

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So they all went, and I can't remember how many there were, but you can see there, there were quite a lot of them, 50, 80. And they all went into court on the same day.

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And... Were they all sent to prison? They were all sent to prison, yeah. It was the first big demonstration

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and the first time they'd gone into the base like that and the first time they decided to make an example of them all. So Ursula had a local paper wrote about her and she wrote a letter.

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That's an interesting headline. Yes, Grand Strip Ordeal. That was the local Herald Express, which is what happened when she went into Greenham.

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Then that's my letter again. So that's a bit of her letter there where she says... Oh, I can't really read it. Anyway, she demonstrated while she was in prison.

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She refused. She did passive resistance. She refused to be strip searched and they made a huge fuss about it.

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And, you know, she said the whole thing about Holloway was humiliation. They worked on humiliating people. So that's why they would do strip searches

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and they would regularly try and humiliate them. So it was a horrid experience. It really was awful. And then I went to court for, as I say,

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cutting a hole in the fence. And that was something else I wanted to show you. And I went to court in Totnes because we made a point of bringing Greenham home,

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which was... That was our banner for the Totnes Women of Peace for the Dragon Day. And that was our courtroom after my trial.

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So some people came down from Greenham. Some women, friends of mine, came down from Greenham and they sprayed Greenham women everywhere, bring Greenham home,

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take the toys from the boys all over the courthouse and it was there for a couple of weeks. And all the kids going to Kevick's, the comprehensive, had to walk past the courtroom.

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So we thought it was very good. And that was my banner. I called mine Chez Moi at home. Lovely name.

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So they would get rid of them every now and then. They would come and they would clear everything. So we'd have to start all over again. We started in tents and we ended in tents.

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Were you at a particular gate? I was at Orange Gate. I started at Green Gate but it was very damp. It was in the woods and I just thought,

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no, I woke up one morning and the whole of my tent, my feet were in a pool of water. It was too damp for me. They were very stale at the Green Gate.

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So I went to Orange Gate and I was there, which was just one gate around from the main gate. The main gate was just full of reporters all the time and I couldn't stand that.

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So you've spoken about your relationship with the police. How about the relationship with the locals, with the local residents? We didn't see them.

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Unless we did a march. I did a march which started in Cornwall and went all the way to Greenham. I did bits of it.

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I did days here and there, all the way up. I did the last bit that went through... What's it called again? I've lost the name.

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Anyway, the local town. We were very unpopular. We had marvellous supporters there who made their houses available to us when we needed them

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and gave us lots of support. But on the whole, the press was so awful. The press was just... In what way were they awful?

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They just said the most awful things about us. They made up stories. They made up that we were violent and we were... Everything...

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Well, you know what social media's like now, although I don't take part in any of it. It was like that. The press were like that.

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They were gutter press. They just told stories against us all the time. Obviously, there were papers like The Guardian that were very good. And they believed it.

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They believed a lot of it. Every now and then, they would come past the main gate and they would throw their rubbish out, for instance, or they would throw bins out or, you know...

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Which is a bit dispirited. But then we had this marvellous support from the peace groups all over the country that would descend with vans and cars and anything they had

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and they would just bring out everything they had. So they gave us sleeping bags. They gave us boots. They gave us clothes.

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They gave us waterproofs. They gave us Gore-Tex. Gore-Tex sleeping bags, which were... You remember I said I woke up with my feet in water.

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Well, it was a Gore-Tex sleeping bag, so my feet were in water, but they were warm. And that was the Gore-Tex because it breathes, you see. And we couldn't have afforded those things.

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We didn't afford those things. And I first ate Greek yoghurt at Orange Gate and I remember thinking, this is divine. I'd never eaten it before.

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And that was a group that brought that. And then people would turn up, like Julie Christie turned up with a van from Wales and full of goods for us.

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And Tony Benn turned up several times, you know. A lot of politicians came down. Linda McCartney came down with a van as well. A lot of well-done people that really supported us

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and that was wonderful. It kind of made up for the bad press because they knew what we were doing, especially other women knew what we were doing, you know.

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So how were the daily activities at the camp organised or at the gate? You know, who did the cooking? We spent a lot of time round fires,

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sitting round fires, trying to avoid smoke. It was always smoky, so the smoke would come in your face, you would move, and then it would go, and it would go on that face over there,

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so you couldn't move back to there. I've never spent so long trying to avoid smoke. But the conversations were absolutely wonderful. I've never taken part in so many creative conversations,

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because women were from everywhere. We had American women, we had Australian women, we had local women, we had women from all over the country, like myself, from Devon.

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And we talked about what was going on where we were and what our peace groups were doing and our plans for the future and any other protests we were doing at the same time.

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And also we had the miners' wives came down, because the strikes were happening, of course, that were coming to an end at that time. And that was amazing as well,

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because they said, you know, we thought it would be the worst thing in the world that the mines would be shut down, and, of course, we were all opposed to Maggie Thatcher

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shutting down the mines. But, in fact, it was shitty work, you know. It's the worst work you can do, going down coal mines. And they said it's changed our relationships with our husbands.

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They're not exhausted and ill anymore. They're helping in the house. They're having a relationship with the children. And, of course, what happened to the valleys

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was they became tourist places. They became green instead of being these coal tips, you know. And that was interesting, seeing that changeover happening

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and talking about that with them. So, yeah, so we were around fires. We were sitting around fires. We had pits to go to the toilet,

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which were not good. And I think now, you know, because I lived in New Zealand for seven years at the beginning of this century,

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and we were a solar-powered community. And we had compost toilets, which were just amazing, you know. We had bark mulch.

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It was never smelly. It rotted down. We did it in big blue bins. And you would fill the bin,

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and then you would put it aside. And then, I think it was as much as a month later, you could put it over the trees, and it had all rotted down.

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And it made me really understand about compost toilets, whereas all we had was this pit in the ground with a plank going across it, which was very dark, you know, very...

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We were really worried about falling into it. And then the helicopters would come over at night often and circle with their searchlights deliberately to humiliate us

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and to wake us up if we were asleep. So what medical facilities were there at the camp? Do you know, I haven't the faintest idea. I think probably, if anything came up,

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we went to the local doctors and the local dentists. It must have been... I can't remember anyone getting hurt or being ill. And, of course, I was only there for the weekend,

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so I wouldn't... long weekends, so... I just wondered whether people were very stressed with being disturbed at night and not being able to get their proper sleep

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because of the evictions. And I just wondered how the community coped with that. It was incredibly stressful at the main gate because they had lots of press,

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so they also got the most... What's the word? I can't find the word. But women that were a bit, you know, like drama. So there was lots of drama going on at the main gate all the time.

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But, you know, people who didn't like it moved away to one of the other gates. On the whole, the other gates... Of course there were the weekends,

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so there were the weekend demonstrations, the big ones, like the Arms Around the Base and the Black Cardigan and the Dragon. There were many more.

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But on the whole, we were women sitting around a fire cooking food for each other and telling stories and singing songs, and it was fantastic.

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So how and why do you think the decision was taken for Greenham to become women-only? That was very early on. I think the march that took place coming down was mixed,

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and then they had a mixed camp for a short time, and then the men got very confrontational and the women asked them to leave, is what I remember. I can't... You know, don't quote me on that.

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But that is what I remember, is that the women said, look, why don't you go down to Porton Down, where there was another camp, and we'll make this a women-only,

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and then it became women-only from then on. And the Hands Around the Base, I remember, which was the first really big demonstration, was women-only, and from then on it was women-only.

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So boys came to demonstrations. My younger son came to a couple. But on the whole, it was for that reason. It was because even though there was confrontation,

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there was far less. It was much more about passive resistance. And so how have the experiences at the camp changed your relationship with men or authority figures?

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Well, you know, I realised very early on, my mother was a pacifist all her life, and my father was in the army, the Indian army and then the Australian army,

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because my mother was Australian, and they were always in conflict about that. And I thought, here I am, you know, supporting my mother on this side, the women,

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and there are the soldiers on the other side, my father. And I thought, that's really interesting. So I think that was what part of my struggle was about, you know, the war, the way men go to war,

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the whole war effort, but the whole fact that we could feed every child in the world if we weren't spending the money on arms. You know, I get really mad when I hear

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about things like cruise missiles. The money we put into armaments is just criminal. And, you know, I don't get it. I don't understand it.

00:27:33.620 - 00:27:44.500

I really believe in passive resistance. And even though people say, well, if it weren't for the war, you know, we would, I think, well, you know, look what Gandhi did with passive resistance.

00:27:44.840 - 00:27:51.660

You know, he got the empire out. It was amazing. And that's why Greenham worked as well, because it was passive resistance.

00:27:51.860 - 00:28:07.940

It wouldn't have worked otherwise, I think. So how do you feel about the way Greenham has been represented in popular culture, in films and books and plays? There hasn't been much.

00:28:07.940 - 00:28:17.920

I've been amazed at how, you know, as women, we're not good at pushing ourselves. We're not good at making... I mean, that's changing, I really understand that.

00:28:17.980 - 00:28:32.560

But we're not good at saying, hey, look over here, look, there's stuff going on over here, you know. And I think that's why, to a certain degree, it has got buried. As you said, there's hardly anything that's available.

00:28:32.880 - 00:28:41.800

There aren't ongoing exhibitions. There aren't ongoing theatre performances. It's quite amazing. And yet it worked. I mean, it worked.

00:28:41.880 - 00:28:51.720

We got the American army out, you know, which is pretty extraordinary. Of all the demonstrations that I ever did and all the dozens of marches that I've done against GM,

00:28:52.120 - 00:29:03.940

against climate change, and working for Amnesty International and sending endless emails to fascists all over the world, particularly to America,

00:29:06.660 - 00:29:16.880

I often felt none of that did anything, you know. Whereas Greenham, I had that sense of it worked, you know. It actually worked and it was worth it. It was worth every minute.

00:29:17.220 - 00:29:33.100

And it showed how passive resistance can work. So why do you think it hasn't been reflected more in popular culture? It's hard to tell. I think the answer I already gave,

00:29:33.100 - 00:29:49.540

that women haven't been really good at... They hide their lights under bushels, you know. I think it must be that, because otherwise you would have thought it would be far more...

00:29:49.540 - 00:29:59.640

I mean, carry Greenham home. I took the video round the whole of Devon and into Cornwall to peace groups and showed it. And then we had discussions in the circle

00:29:59.640 - 00:30:07.280

talking about Greenham and what life was like there. And that was great. That went on. I did that for years after I'd been living there.

00:30:08.380 - 00:30:15.660

And it was a way of keeping it alive. And having the video was fantastic for that. I mean, have you seen the video? Yes, I have.

00:30:15.960 - 00:30:25.520

Because it's very creative, you know. It's very exciting and there's the music in it and everything about it was very vibrant and very alive. And the peace groups used to think,

00:30:25.920 - 00:30:42.140

ah, at last, something is changing here, you know. So what else do you think needs to be done in order to see it represented accurately in popular culture? Well, I would love to see more books about it.

00:30:42.220 - 00:30:52.800

I would love to see more... I would love to see a good film, other than Carry Greenham Home, made about it. And I would really love to see a theatre piece.

00:30:52.980 - 00:31:02.820

That's why I asked you right at the beginning, are they going to do a theatre piece? I think it would make amazing theatre, you know. The whole, the quiet, sitting round the fire

00:31:02.820 - 00:31:15.120

and the conversations that we had. And then, you know, the, right, we're up for another, you know, going through into the base, cut a hole and in we go. And then coming out and back to the fire again,

00:31:15.240 - 00:31:30.960

cook another meal, you know. It was very interesting, that contrast between the two all the time. And we got press from all over the world. I mean, I remember being interviewed by East German television, you know.

00:31:31.400 - 00:31:46.360

And we had people from Russia. So, it really did fire up the imagination of a lot of people, all these women sitting in camps for years and years and years. It was an amazing thing to do.

00:31:47.580 - 00:31:59.260

So, what do you think we need to do in order to get the younger generation to be aware of what the Green and Women did? I always find it interesting, particularly...

00:31:59.260 - 00:32:13.440

Well, look what they're doing. So, why do you think it is that the suffragist movement, young people seem to know about that, but not about the Green and Common women?

00:32:14.760 - 00:32:28.040

That's an interesting question. I mean, we talked, when we set up the Women's Centre in Totnes, and it was the most successful Women's Centre of its time because of the way we set it up.

00:32:28.100 - 00:32:40.580

We set it up with a women's bookshop at the bottom and workshops. We had Greed Shoes, who was making shoes, and I had my knitwear business, and there was someone making schmocks, Andrea, making schmocks,

00:32:41.120 - 00:32:50.960

and we had a carpenter in there. And then at the top, we had meeting rooms, and in the back, we set up a cafe, which is interesting, is a small French cafe now, actually,

00:32:50.960 - 00:33:04.420

in the centre of town, on the plains. And we thought we were among the first feminists, even though we were reading all these feminist writers, like Adrienne Rich and wonderful, wonderful writers,

00:33:04.560 - 00:33:14.500

Dale Spender, and they all talked about how, every time there was a movement, it came up and then it was suppressed,

00:33:15.140 - 00:33:24.020

and then it had to start all over again. So we were constantly starting again, as if nothing had ever happened before. In fact, Dale Spender wrote a wonderful book saying

00:33:24.020 - 00:33:36.720

women have ideas and what men have done to them, and it was all about women writers who were famous in their time. And then the minute they died,

00:33:37.100 - 00:33:46.120

they were buried by male scholarship. I mean, it was... Well, we all know that now. I mean, women's hour now has constantly...

00:33:46.740 - 00:33:55.120

Someone new who's just been discovered, who discovered something in her time, was a scientist, was an engineer, was a this, that and the other,

00:33:55.460 - 00:34:01.880

and her brother took the credit, her husband took the credit, her son took the credit. You know, there was always someone else that took the credit,

00:34:02.160 - 00:34:10.320

or her partner took the credit. I mean, Marie Curie is one of the few, and that must have been because her husband allowed her to have the credit, you know.

00:34:10.400 - 00:34:19.040

But it's quite extraordinary the way this has happened, and, of course, the reason the suffragettes are so famous is because we didn't have the vote. We had no say.

00:34:19.460 - 00:34:27.960

We had no power. And it's that sense of power that we got back at Greenham, I think. There was something else in your question

00:34:27.960 - 00:34:37.760

that interested me that I haven't addressed yet. What was the rest of the question? Oh, yes, young people today. I mean, look what they're doing, you know.

00:34:37.780 - 00:34:46.240

I was walking on all the marches. They're going on marches for climate change, which I think is absolutely wonderful and quite right, too,

00:34:46.340 - 00:34:54.200

because when you're a teenager, you have lots of energy. You get the sense that you've got absolutely no power. You're told to do O levels and A levels

00:34:54.200 - 00:35:06.060

when you want to be doing dozens of other things, you know, expressing your life force. And climate change is a great thing for them. And the whole movement around guns in America,

00:35:06.620 - 00:35:15.400

you know, by those young schoolchildren who were so amazing. And again, you know, what happened in New Zealand and the fact that they instantly changed their guns laws,

00:35:15.760 - 00:35:25.740

I just thought that was so wonderful. I lived there for seven years. So wonderful, as an example to America, who have, I mean, they have these school shootings

00:35:25.740 - 00:35:33.740

every year and sometimes twice a year. It is unbelievable. If this was happening in England, I would have chained myself to the door

00:35:33.740 - 00:35:40.760

at 10 Downing Street. I wouldn't allow it to happen. It is extraordinary. And what women have had to put up with over there, you know.

00:35:40.760 - 00:35:53.420

There was a wonderful demonstration in America years ago where women went to the Pentagon and they brought baby shoes with them and they put baby shoes all the way round the Pentagon

00:35:53.420 - 00:36:02.020

and it was to show how many children and tiny children, toddlers, had been killed with guns. And it was an amazing demonstration.

00:36:03.080 - 00:36:12.480

You don't hear about it nowadays. Gone. So what do you think the police and the lawmakers learnt from Greenham Common? Perhaps reflection.

00:36:12.480 - 00:36:19.880

Do you know, I mean, the police were amazing. I have huge respect for the police still. They were amazing. They really were.

00:36:20.040 - 00:36:27.560

I mean, but then I've never been black in London. I remember walking through, I think it was Brixton in London with an Australian friend of mine from Greenham.

00:36:28.280 - 00:36:35.880

We'd gone out for something and a young black man was walking in front of us and a police car stopped. Two policemen got out

00:36:35.880 - 00:36:42.000

and they started accosting him. And so we carried on and we went up to them and we said, excuse me,

00:36:45.900 - 00:36:53.860

why are you accosting this man? And they looked very embarrassed and they said, we're just finding out

00:36:54.780 - 00:37:02.260

and they couldn't think of anything to say. They'd just seen a black man on the street and he was young and it wasn't anything to do with knives or anything.

00:37:02.780 - 00:37:09.260

They were just accosting him. Stop, stopping him. And they got back into their car and went away. And that,

00:37:09.840 - 00:37:19.140

I'd never been stopped and searched and they didn't ask us to produce our credentials or anything. And I thought that's what life is like for our people on the streets.

00:37:19.320 - 00:37:25.340

You know, it's extraordinary really. Sorry, what was the question? I've left it at the end. Yeah, so what do you think the police

00:37:25.340 - 00:37:32.760

and the lawmakers learned from Greenham? There was one time when I was arrested by the police at Greenham and it was the time in fact

00:37:32.760 - 00:37:43.400

that I went to court for, which was a friend of mine and I had done a hole in the fence and then we were immediately arrested

00:37:43.400 - 00:37:51.840

and taken in the van and all the way to the station the men in the van were laughing and joking about us and saying,

00:37:52.020 - 00:37:58.360

oh, isn't that an awful smell? What do you think it is? Oh, I don't know, but it's pretty, that kind of thing.

00:37:58.460 - 00:38:04.100

And I said, with my best English accent, why do you think you're going to get away with this? How do you think,

00:38:04.220 - 00:38:09.400

why do you think you can treat us like this and be this rude? And one of them said, we're SBG,

00:38:10.040 - 00:38:15.960

which was special, special police brigade or special, maybe SGP,

00:38:16.100 - 00:38:24.800

I can't remember anyway, something like that, but they were special forces and they kept them away from Greenham

00:38:24.800 - 00:38:34.180

as much as they could because they were such violent, I was going to say uneducated, I don't know if they were educated or not,

00:38:34.240 - 00:38:40.880

but they were awful, they were truly awful, that left such a bad taste in my mouth, it was just awful.

00:38:41.040 - 00:38:49.680

I complained, I put in an official complaint, but of course I don't think it went anywhere, but it was the only time in all those years

00:38:49.680 - 00:38:59.840

that I was treated with total disrespect, you know, and I felt often that there were police that had daughters and mothers and sisters

00:38:59.840 - 00:39:07.780

that were there, and that many of them were sympathetic, like that policeman who spoke up about that man peeing on my bender,

00:39:07.920 - 00:39:15.520

that was lovely, I remember going back to sleep feeling safe and that was really nice. And what happened to you when you went to court?

00:39:16.080 - 00:39:26.260

Well, I started to tell you, at first we all went to court in Newbury and then they got overloaded and we asked at the same time

00:39:26.260 - 00:39:35.100

if we could go to court in our local boroughs because we wanted to bring it back so that I wouldn't be tried over there, I'd be tried in Totnes,

00:39:35.580 - 00:39:42.480

and so local people came and protested, the local peace group came, the courtroom was full, they heard my speech,

00:39:42.560 - 00:39:53.520

because we all always stood up and gave a speech about peace, and then I was given a fine, which I refused to pay,

00:39:55.060 - 00:40:03.660

and then I would have gone to prison, but the local peace group said, look, you can't afford to go to prison with your kids, so why don't we pay for you,

00:40:03.840 - 00:40:15.100

and I paid with a cheque on a piece of wood this big, about three foot long, and I just painted the whole cheque as it would look, and it's perfectly legal,

00:40:15.480 - 00:40:20.520

and handed it over to the police when they came to get it, so I don't know how they cashed it, goodness knows.

00:40:20.880 - 00:40:27.440

And how much was the fine? I can't remember. It wasn't a lot, it wasn't a lot,

00:40:27.540 - 00:40:33.360

maybe £125, something like that, I don't know. But in those days it would have been

00:40:33.360 - 00:40:42.480

quite a lot of money to find. Yes. So you painted a cheque on a piece of wood. Yes, it was a way of protesting to the end,

00:40:42.540 - 00:40:48.440

you know. And presumably it was cashed. Oh, I'm sure they cashed it, yes. Yes.

00:40:49.740 - 00:41:06.620

Otherwise they would have come back again. I know, there were lots of things like that. So how were decisions made at Greenham? It was always,

00:41:07.000 - 00:41:14.040

I mean most of it was women getting together and acting on consensus. It was always consensus, as far as I could see.

00:41:14.760 - 00:41:22.340

I mean I do remember going to a meeting at the main gate about a demonstration that was going to happen that day, and one of the women there said,

00:41:22.500 - 00:41:27.280

there aren't any women, there aren't any local women here, you know, what's going on?

00:41:27.740 - 00:41:33.340

And another woman, who I knew a little and really liked, she said, you don't understand,

00:41:33.580 - 00:41:37.400

you know, every woman here is here because she believes in Greenham, you know,

00:41:37.460 - 00:41:42.420

whatever, wherever she comes from or whoever she is. And that was lovely

00:41:42.420 - 00:41:53.980

because you would often get this sense of that there were people who lived there all the time and then there were people like me who were part-time

00:41:53.980 - 00:42:00.600

and then there were people who came on the big demonstrations. As far as I was concerned, everyone made sacrifices,

00:42:00.860 - 00:42:05.240

you know, it was difficult for everyone. And for a lot of people who lived there all the time,

00:42:05.380 - 00:42:12.400

it became a way of life, that was their life. It wasn't as if they were giving up an awful lot, although I'm sure some of them were.

00:42:13.740 - 00:42:21.880

But that sense of belonging, to your gate, was really lovely. So we would get together

00:42:21.880 - 00:42:29.340

and decide what we were going to do that weekend and if there was a big demonstration, whether we were going to go on it or not, whether it was going to take part

00:42:29.340 - 00:42:35.900

at all the gates or not. And I loved that, I loved the consensus. I mean,

00:42:35.960 - 00:42:45.720

I was already part of the Women's Centre where we did everything by consensus. And so it was a very effective method, very effective,

00:42:45.920 - 00:42:56.700

incredibly effective. I don't remember ever having a situation where there was anything that was unresolved. We always managed to resolve

00:42:56.700 - 00:43:05.300

what needed resolving. It was really great. I still believe in consensus. Takes longer.

00:43:06.140 - 00:43:13.580

It does take longer, consensus. Because you've got to get everyone's agreement. So how did your Greenham experience

00:43:14.200 - 00:43:21.500

impact on your personal life then and today? Okay, can I just put that question aside for a minute

00:43:21.500 - 00:43:28.900

because something came up where I was thinking about consensus. When I lived in New Zealand, they have MMP,

00:43:29.140 - 00:43:36.640

which is proportional representation. And their Green Party not only had seven members in Parliament, because I've always been Green,

00:43:37.500 - 00:43:47.640

but as well as that, our local MP was Jeanette Fitzsimons who was co-head of the Green Party. They did what the Greens in Germany do,

00:43:47.820 - 00:43:57.540

which is one male, one female, always. They always have a couple who are heading the party, which is what I think Labour should do. I think it would be absolutely great

00:43:57.540 - 00:44:05.880

if they had a man and a woman. Anyway, so whenever there was an issue that was important to me,

00:44:05.960 - 00:44:12.380

like GM food, which, by the way, they completely banned any seeds, anything in New Zealand.

00:44:13.240 - 00:44:22.260

Nuclear power, completely banned, and they've banned all American submarines and ships from fuelling in New Zealand.

00:44:22.780 - 00:44:34.020

They have a huge policy on safe waters around and no fishing area because they've got a lot of unusual dolphins and whales. Whenever there was an issue that affected me,

00:44:34.020 - 00:44:41.440

there was always someone who stood up in Parliament and spoke for me. Do you know, in all my years living here in Devon,

00:44:41.760 - 00:44:50.420

I had never experienced that because our local MP is Conservative. I voted Labour sometimes, Green always,

00:44:50.660 - 00:44:58.680

and never got the sense of being heard in Parliament because it was a... And same now, we have a Conservative...

00:44:58.680 - 00:45:07.700

Well, actually, she just left the Conservative Party, but she's very Conservative. And I'm very much in favour of MMP,

00:45:08.040 - 00:45:17.800

Proportional Representation. It means everyone feels represented. Even if you've got a right-wing... Nigel Farage party,

00:45:18.080 - 00:45:27.120

a UKIP member in there, it's only one or two. It'll never be more. And even UKIP supporters have a right to be supported.

00:45:28.160 - 00:45:36.400

So I just want to say, I think that's really important. I think that way of living and that way of working

00:45:36.400 - 00:45:42.180

is really important for government. But of course, they don't like it because they have to talk about things more

00:45:42.180 - 00:45:50.000

and they don't have that sense of confrontation to the same degree. I mean, you must have listened to Parliament.

00:45:50.240 - 00:45:53.460

I mean, they just yell at each other and they just go, boo-boo,

00:45:53.660 - 00:45:57.200

or yeah, yeah, and they talk through each other. It's like a boys' club.

00:45:57.300 - 00:46:04.680

It sounds awful. And I just think we've got to get equal representation. And how do you think we'll get that?

00:46:05.660 - 00:46:13.260

I think the more women there are in Parliament, the more likely we are to get MMP, to get proportional representation. We've just got to keep pushing for women.

00:46:13.780 - 00:46:19.560

You know, even though we've only got a Conservative MP, she is a woman and I'm glad about that.

00:46:19.700 - 00:46:27.600

You know, I've forgotten her name temporarily. But she's very vocal. She's an ex-GP

00:46:27.600 - 00:46:33.120

and she talks on National Health, but the trouble is, she's a, she's a Conservative.

00:46:33.480 - 00:46:40.320

She could be doing such wonderful things for National Health, you know. So how do we get young people interested then,

00:46:40.400 - 00:46:47.740

young women interested? Well, you know, there was a group that came down to talk at our Women's Centre.

00:46:48.640 - 00:46:55.360

No, I think it was in Kibbeth and a lot of us from the Women's Centre went there and they called themselves the 300 Group

00:46:55.360 - 00:47:00.800

and it was run by, and again, I'm having a senior moment, I can't remember names,

00:47:01.700 - 00:47:06.500

but anyway, she's still a Member of Parliament. She's great. And she had set up this group

00:47:06.500 - 00:47:13.300

and she was going round the country and it was called the 300 Group because 300 would have been half the amount. There were 600 MPs then.

00:47:15.220 - 00:47:20.880

And we've still got, I think it's 45 out of 645 or something like that are women. I mean,

00:47:20.980 - 00:47:27.860

we are very low, as you probably know. And she was going round the country trying to encourage women

00:47:27.860 - 00:47:36.300

to stand for their local MPs and a friend of mine stood as Green for several years. She was great.

00:47:36.540 - 00:47:43.440

She never got elected, but she was great. So we've got to do more of that. Now you need to ask that question again.

00:47:43.720 - 00:47:50.820

Yes. So how did your Greenham experience impact on your personal life then and now?

00:47:54.240 - 00:47:59.760

The impact has definitely lessened over the years, but I carried on. I always carried on.

00:47:59.980 - 00:48:05.240

I did a lot of local actions. We did, we had someone, a teenager locally

00:48:05.240 - 00:48:15.780

who died of Toxic Shock Syndrome and they were linking it then to tampons. So our women's centre went into chemists and put on the side

00:48:15.780 - 00:48:25.280

little stickers on all the tampons, all the tampon packets saying this can cause Toxic Shock Syndrome because there was an additive.

00:48:25.520 - 00:48:31.880

Not only were they not cotton, they were other things, but they had an additive they'd put into tampons

00:48:31.880 - 00:48:40.240

to make them more absorbent and they believed that it was that. So if women didn't change a tampon they had a chance of going

00:48:40.240 - 00:48:45.780

to Toxic Shock Syndrome which was a fever that killed you. That worked. They changed it.

00:48:46.380 - 00:48:53.420

I mean, I don't know if that worked, but women were doing it all over the country so I think it did, it was that. Another thing was we heard that,

00:48:53.420 - 00:49:00.020

I heard, that the local barber under the Civic Hall in Totnes was giving away,

00:49:00.100 - 00:49:06.680

is this okay? Are we okay with time? Was giving, was renting out porn videos,

00:49:06.800 - 00:49:14.480

but hardcore porn videos to his clients. He was a barber. And so we,

00:49:15.100 - 00:49:21.280

a Greenham friend of mine, Miranda and I, went late at night, about midnight,

00:49:21.500 - 00:49:26.940

with pots of paint, white paint, and we, did we spray or did we paint?

00:49:27.000 - 00:49:31.860

I think we painted the local video shops, the front windows and the barbers

00:49:31.860 - 00:49:39.160

on the pavement in front saying porn is sold here or porn is rented here for the video shops.

00:49:39.800 - 00:49:45.560

And the next day there was a huge fuss about it and one of the local, the owner of the top video shop

00:49:45.560 - 00:49:52.620

said great, great, great publicity, going to rent twice as much out tonight.

00:49:53.460 - 00:50:00.380

And of course they didn't have hard porn, they had very soft porn. And the barbers had a visit from the police that very day

00:50:00.380 - 00:50:05.400

and he was closed down. So they must have found the videos. So again, we were really kind of,

00:50:05.540 - 00:50:10.580

yay! You know, that worked. And then I belonged to

00:50:10.580 - 00:50:15.880

Amnesty International for many years and did urgent action, which is sending videos,

00:50:17.360 - 00:50:26.380

which is sending emails to help people who are prisoners of conscience and to,

00:50:26.520 - 00:50:31.140

I mean I sent a lot to the governor of Texas because of course there were young black men

00:50:31.140 - 00:50:41.720

on death row all the time and Texas was one of the main states in America that just got rid of them all,

00:50:42.000 - 00:50:47.900

didn't pardon any of them. The governor never pardoned anyone. Of course the governor at that time was brother to George Bush,

00:50:48.660 - 00:50:54.060

Jeb Bush I think he was called. And then one day I realised that actually, and I was also raising money

00:50:54.060 - 00:51:01.120

by putting things in cafes to get money for them, but then one day I realised that actually I was writing to fascists.

00:51:01.180 - 00:51:08.420

I was writing these heartfelt emails to fascists and again, I didn't feel I was doing much good

00:51:08.420 - 00:51:12.760

although I think Amnesty International is wonderful. So I've carried on doing that kind of work,

00:51:12.760 - 00:51:22.160

went round all the green grocers in Totnes to ask them not to stock South African food,

00:51:22.440 - 00:51:26.980

fruit and veg, and that worked. All of them except one at the very top of town

00:51:28.080 - 00:51:33.980

stopped stocking any fruit and veg from South Africa so that was good. And Ruth and I,

00:51:34.080 - 00:51:40.920

Ruth was my friend who was South African, she had a stall every Friday on the market

00:51:40.920 - 00:51:49.480

which I helped with occasionally. She's now back in South Africa. I miss her. So there are a lot of things like that

00:51:49.480 - 00:51:55.780

that we constantly, there's probably a lot more that I've forgotten about. But it's just a way of life

00:51:55.780 - 00:52:01.640

in a way, protest. I write letters now. I write letters online. Whenever there's anything

00:52:01.640 - 00:52:06.020

I don't like I'll just write a letter about it to someone. I mean I'm really worried

00:52:06.020 - 00:52:12.760

about Palestine. It's getting worse and worse and the fact that Netanyahu's got back in

00:52:12.760 - 00:52:21.440

and that he's going to legalise the settlement is such bad news. I mean basically

00:52:21.440 - 00:52:28.480

they're razing Palestine. I saw a demonstration last year and it was in the streets of the Israelis

00:52:28.480 - 00:52:33.280

and an Israeli was asked a question and he said Palestine? Palestinians?

00:52:33.880 - 00:52:37.080

Who's that? What's that? No such a place, no such a people.

00:52:37.080 - 00:52:42.140

And I thought oh my god they're just erasing the name and they're erasing the people

00:52:42.140 - 00:52:45.940

completely. It really is you know not only apartheid

00:52:45.940 - 00:52:51.040

but genocide. It is just appalling. So yeah I give a lot of energy to that.

00:52:51.840 - 00:52:57.240

There's always something isn't there? Looking back at your lovely album there

00:52:57.240 - 00:53:02.220

is there anything else that you perhaps a favourite moment with a photo

00:53:02.220 - 00:53:06.720

or a reading that you'd like to share? That's Aldermalston. That's me there look

00:53:06.720 - 00:53:11.300

on Aldermalston. Yes. No that's me there that little

00:53:11.300 - 00:53:16.720

little blonde person with the boots. And that's Easter 1961. It is yes

00:53:16.720 - 00:53:26.040

I was 16. That was one of our Women for Peace posters. That was a demonstration

00:53:26.040 - 00:53:30.960

we did in Totnes about trains going through in the middle of the night carrying nuclear waste.

00:53:31.460 - 00:53:34.740

Because of course if there'd been a crash we didn't know anything about it of course

00:53:34.740 - 00:53:42.360

so we let people know. That's my son with my daughter in the pram.

00:53:42.480 - 00:53:50.300

That's me. That was the 1st March. And that was I think that was the 1st March

00:53:50.300 - 00:54:00.580

27th August to September 5th 1981. That's right. That was a local demonstration

00:54:00.580 - 00:54:07.300

by our peace group. The average British family spends £16 a week on arms last year.

00:54:07.800 - 00:54:14.660

And that was in 1982. Yep. Then that was the 1st the poster about

00:54:14.660 - 00:54:19.820

the information about the 1st demonstration around the base with all the gates

00:54:19.820 - 00:54:30.520

around the base. And that was on 21st March 1982. The New Age Gate. They all had different

00:54:30.520 - 00:54:37.100

at first they all had different like Green Gate I think was the women's gate. Main Gate was Main Gate

00:54:37.100 - 00:54:41.020

but all the other gates had different and then they just got called by colours.

00:54:41.860 - 00:54:45.780

So the artist gates will be poets, painters, dancers,

00:54:46.000 - 00:54:53.500

actors. It was a lovely idea. In the evening a blockade of the base

00:54:53.500 - 00:54:57.300

is planned for a maximum of 24 hours. This will probably

00:54:57.300 - 00:55:01.160

take the form of women being chained to each other and to the gates

00:55:01.160 - 00:55:08.480

with a minimum of 20 at each gate. That's right. There you go.

00:55:08.580 - 00:55:14.340

Greenham Common Women's Peace Camp an international action

00:55:15.520 - 00:55:21.140

December. That's me sitting by a fire. That's the women around the gate.

00:55:22.400 - 00:55:27.800

Arms around the base. That was wonderful. When they actually said they've joined hands

00:55:27.800 - 00:55:31.440

they're going all the way round. That's it. We've done it. I mean that was

00:55:31.440 - 00:55:36.700

a lot of women. Look how many women in that small stretch. There were thousands

00:55:36.700 - 00:55:42.540

of women there that day. And how long did it take? It took most of the morning

00:55:42.540 - 00:55:48.300

and then by late morning there were women with Skeeter who was a friend of mine

00:55:48.300 - 00:55:52.860

had a radio and she said she went yay!

00:55:53.280 - 00:55:57.200

And that was a picture that was in a lot of papers at the time. But it was

00:55:57.720 - 00:56:01.440

that's it. We've gone round. Then that's the action with my mother

00:56:01.440 - 00:56:06.980

which was 82. Take a risk for peace now.

00:56:07.160 - 00:56:11.240

Fenella 3 follows in the family tradition. That's me here

00:56:11.240 - 00:56:16.500

and that's my daughter. Where's Fenella? That's Fenella. So that was again

00:56:16.500 - 00:56:23.820

a peace march that we did locally. So a three year old Fenella is following in the

00:56:23.820 - 00:56:27.560

family tradition by following in her grandmother's footsteps.

00:56:27.560 - 00:56:31.060

That's right. Yes. Because mum had been to prison by then.

00:56:31.220 - 00:56:37.320

Yes. That's my mum. Back from my letter to my sons

00:56:37.320 - 00:56:41.180

about my Easter week Easter holiday in Greenham.

00:56:43.120 - 00:56:47.840

More photos. That's a hole in the fence that some women have just gone in.

00:56:47.880 - 00:56:51.780

That was the Easter bunny demonstration. You see she's a chicken.

00:56:52.680 - 00:57:03.180

Yes. Dragon day. Some dragons are fighting back.

00:57:06.320 - 00:57:09.860

So that's a poster there saying bring mirrors

00:57:09.860 - 00:57:13.620

to turn the base inside out. Yes. Trees to plant.

00:57:13.800 - 00:57:17.740

Candles for silent vigil and instruments for songs. Yes it was always

00:57:17.740 - 00:57:22.300

very creative. I mean the fence got covered in people's

00:57:22.300 - 00:57:26.600

especially that day when all the women came. But we were constantly making

00:57:26.600 - 00:57:29.820

webs making little tapestries

00:57:29.820 - 00:57:33.560

from bits of wool and people left photos

00:57:34.160 - 00:57:38.340

dolls teddy bears all sorts. That's the council.

00:57:39.300 - 00:57:43.120

That's the benders which as I say kept getting

00:57:43.120 - 00:57:47.340

taken down. That's after the benders were taken.

00:57:48.900 - 00:57:52.560

Women's struggle won the vote to use it for disarmament.

00:57:53.700 - 00:58:02.060

With an apron. Fascinating. So we've covered

00:58:02.060 - 00:58:05.920

a lot of ground. Is there any question you would have liked me to ask

00:58:05.920 - 00:58:09.120

that I haven't asked? Oh crikey no your questions are great.

00:58:09.760 - 00:58:13.040

But I think it's very interesting to see you know I mean

00:58:13.040 - 00:58:17.620

my children are very aware and my grandson

00:58:17.620 - 00:58:21.900

will be very aware of all of this you know because

00:58:21.900 - 00:58:25.040

I talk about it a lot with them and that is lovely.

00:58:25.840 - 00:58:29.000

Knowing that it's going to pass down and knowing that

00:58:29.000 - 00:58:32.400

they're all really aware of all the issues that are important.

00:58:32.940 - 00:58:35.400

What kind of questions do they ask you when you're

00:58:35.400 - 00:58:38.400

telling them the stories? I did a lovely trip

00:58:38.400 - 00:58:41.560

with my son down to the south of France to

00:58:41.560 - 00:58:44.480

visit his dad a couple of years ago and we talked

00:58:44.480 - 00:58:46.480

all the way and it was just lovely because he

00:58:46.480 - 00:58:48.880

asked me all those questions. He asked

00:58:48.880 - 00:58:51.860

me about my mum and her actions and

00:58:51.860 - 00:58:55.400

about my actions and I know my mum loved

00:58:55.400 - 00:58:58.060

the fact that I was going on all the actions and

00:58:58.060 - 00:59:01.620

that I would carry on that work after her

00:59:01.620 - 00:59:04.040

you know and in fact after she went to prison she

00:59:04.040 - 00:59:06.260

didn't go up much any more and it

00:59:06.260 - 00:59:08.300

was me going part time but of course I

00:59:08.300 - 00:59:12.080

fed it into her all the time so that thing of

00:59:12.080 - 00:59:15.680

passing it down from mother to daughter I think is incredibly

00:59:15.680 - 00:59:18.720

important. And to grandchildren. And to

00:59:18.720 - 00:59:23.880

grandchildren. Yes. Very important. Because it went

00:59:23.880 - 00:59:27.200

on for a long time and in the end you know at

00:59:27.200 - 00:59:30.060

the end of it it was very quiet we didn't have a

00:59:30.060 - 00:59:34.240

big reunion which we should have and we

00:59:34.240 - 00:59:37.660

should have walked on the common together and I think I

00:59:37.660 - 00:59:42.080

might even have been abroad when that happened but

00:59:42.080 - 00:59:43.280

it was many years later.