00:00:00.000 - 00:00:32.120

I'd like to ask you first of all, if I may, how did you become part of Greenham? Right, I wasn't part of Greenham in the early years. Basically I worked, I was an area manager working in London for Oxfam. I was very much aware of Greenham but because of the political situation at the time, we were not, as management staff, really permitted to get too heavily

00:00:32.120 - 00:01:06.560

involved with political acts. You know yourself as a charity, you're not allowed to, I couldn't, I mean I had belonged to CND years previously and things like that. You have to drop all those affiliations, especially with Margaret Thatcher, because it was just not a good thing at all and not basically allowed as a charity. So I didn't get involved in the early

00:01:06.560 - 00:01:39.960

days but I actually subsequently left. I had lots of friends that had been, so I was very much aware and supportive. I then actually left Oxfam during that period and when I did, I was left to go travelling and I had rented a little place in Devon. So I thought, oh great, so going backwards and forwards between London and Devon, I can actually get to Greenham. So I did, so every

00:01:39.960 - 00:02:09.480

time I was doing the journeys back and forwards, I would stop with my old camper van. I had a Volkswagen camper van at the time. So I used to park up and stay a few days and the thing was, at the end, there really was only Yellowgate that were there on a permanent basis. The other gates would come and go for the odd weekends and things like that, but Yellowgate was the only

00:02:09.480 - 00:02:38.380

permanent group of women that were left there and quite low on numbers at some point. One of the women that had been there nine years, which I just found incredible, I learned so much from them, she only ever took a couple of weeks out over Christmas and New Year every year to go and see her family, which I just, other than the odd stint in prison, but either refusing or

00:02:38.380 - 00:03:03.880

couldn't pay fines and things like that. So there was only a small bunch of women, so it was good in a way because around the fire you got quite a lot of conversation and I got a lot more information about what had gone on rather than just what was happening then. They were still trying to get into the base and cause some havoc every now and again, but it was low key. It was

00:03:03.880 - 00:03:35.680

about, we're still here, we haven't gone and they were determined to let the base know that they were still there, even though there was only a few of them really compared. So it was very low key then in that sense, but just they needed more numbers really. But of course the big, the main era of Greenland had really sort of died right down really and there wasn't a lot

00:03:35.680 - 00:04:03.760

of publicity anymore, but there was just these hardline group of women who were just determined to stay there. And some women like me would visit, stay a few days and then move on and then come back or turn up at the weekend. So yeah, that's basically, it was very quiet and very sort of low key compared to the heydays of Greenland, shall we say. And so what year would it be then when

00:04:03.760 - 00:04:33.460

you first arrived in your, was it, was your van called Doris or something like that? Or Gladys? No, it's Gladys. What it is, if you refer back to the photographs, the van that they had with all the writing and stuff on the side, that van was called Gladys. And one day I turned up with a load of, you know, I just used to turn up with some food and a few

00:04:33.460 - 00:05:00.220

beers for the girls. And we turned, I turned up there and they were in a real pickle because Gladys had died on them yet again. It was a very young vehicle as you can see from the photograph. And they didn't know what to do because the garage, the guys, the garage and the local, the chaps there had been great in trying to keep it going for them for the years. They were given

00:05:00.220 - 00:05:24.260

it in the first place, but to try to keep it legal, so because it still had to be taxed and insured, because that was on the common. Every time the bailiffs turned up, you had to put everything in it and drive it off the land, otherwise they would confiscate. So it was imperative that they had a vehicle that could do this. Anyway, it died and the garage had said, look, it's just, it's had it.

00:05:24.740 - 00:05:46.300

We can't keep, we can't repair it anymore. It's just ridiculously expensive now to try to do it and blah, blah. And they were really in a pickle because no money, what do you do? So I went, took myself off with one of the others into Newbury to see if we can, we went to the garage and we, I had to work with the guys, we had to work with the guys there and they, I said, have you got any

00:05:46.300 - 00:06:14.780

vehicle that's cheap and cheerful that we can, you know, that is legal? And all they had was a car. They said, well, no commercial vehicles, but we have got a car. And I said, well, that's no good because they need somewhere to store food and their belongings really, basically. And so I said, the only other thing we can do is, is maybe hitch a little caravan to it,

00:06:15.620 - 00:06:41.240

which I thought might be a good idea as well, because they're living in tents all weather, you know, so if it's a really horrible, you could just about cram a number of women at least into this little, a little caravan, which would also store the stuff. And then I thought, well, like the other added benefit of that is you could have, if they had a gas cylinder, they could

00:06:41.240 - 00:07:04.260

perhaps have a little bit of, you know, boil a kettle in there rather than the fire, because it's pouring with rain, they've had it. So that's, that was the plan. That was the idea. So I went and bought a local paper, found somebody that was selling a caravan, luckily. I could, I had a tow bar on the back, Gladys, but to get it back, but the car didn't. So the

00:07:04.260 - 00:07:29.380

guy said that they would put a tow bar on the car, meanwhile, off of an old car that they had. So long story short, we ended up, we had a car and a little tiny caravan, and we towed it and we got it back there. So Gladys died, basically. And so they decided to call my vehicle Sister of Gladys. That was her full title, because she kind of replaced it and

00:07:29.380 - 00:07:49.080

saved the day, as it were. And so that's, that's what they ended up with, as I say, the car and the little caravan. And the little caravan did work out to be quite a good, a good plan, really, because it helped them, you know, to dry stuff out and things like that in the bad weather. Sounds like a very effective solution.

00:07:50.300 - 00:08:17.130

Well, yes, I mean, it didn't cost me a fortune, but I, I, I had enough to, yeah, to, to, to do that. It's, needs must, on these occasions, don't they? So kept them going, hopefully kept them a healthy in the winter, because I know a couple of the girls had ended up in, in hospital with pneumonia a few times and things like that in the winter months.

00:08:19.010 - 00:08:43.190

When you were there Dawn, what was life like at the camp when you first arrived? And was it what you had expected it to be like? Um, expected, I suppose because I'd known a number of women who had been there and been back and forwards all over the years, and spent a lot of time there. I was, it wasn't,

00:08:43.330 - 00:09:06.690

no, I wasn't shocked or surprised or anything. What, what for me, and I know it was, it applies to the women that were there, was, was difficult, was the, the fact that they were only low in numbers. And thereby felt very vulnerable at times. I mean, one night I was there and I was asleep and, um, there's a whole bunch of guys that obviously had gone past in some vehicles

00:09:06.690 - 00:09:31.830

shouting abuse and, you know, what you need is a good effing and all this, you know, really sort of abusive nasty stuff. And I looked at myself, you know, at some, on some occasions there, there were only a handful of women there, um, sometimes at its lowest, which made them extremely vulnerable. Um, your safe, safety is in numbers, obviously. So,

00:09:32.070 - 00:09:58.870

so from that point of view, I was very much aware of that. Um, other than that, you know, life went on, they had the fire, they had their tents, they, as I say, they had been there for so many years, a lot of them. Um, even if they weren't there permanently, they had been at that gate on and off for many, many years. Um, that was the thing that really struck me was the,

00:09:58.970 - 00:10:22.870

the determination and the commitment, um, from some of the women. It wasn't just a weekend jolly. This was, this was serious commitment and I had great admiration for them. And if, you know, the bit I did helped and then great, you know, but I know every time I did turn up, I said, oh great, you know, we're low on numbers Dawn, you know, we're glad to see that kind of

00:10:22.870 - 00:10:50.430

thing. Um, so I, I went as often as I could really. Um, I couldn't stay all the time, but I, I, um, I went as often as I could and I was lucky because I had my camper van, I could, I could stay in that as long as. Yes. And it sounded as though you had a very good relationship with the garage. And I just wondered what was the relationship like with the local residents

00:10:51.070 - 00:11:12.310

or the military or the police? Well, the police and the military, we know historically were, were pretty appalling, really. I mean, they just had no tolerance for the women being there at all. Um, and that was still going on. The women were convinced that they were zapped, you know, um, this zapping was going on, which really caused them some distress and things.

00:11:13.150 - 00:11:36.550

I think because I was there right at the end, they, they weren't, the interaction was less, although the girls were still going in with the, with the wire clip. I mean, I, I was looking after the, uh, the fire. Dawn, look after the camp, keep the fire going. We're going to go in and we'll be back shortly. If we don't come, go and get help, this kind of

00:11:36.550 - 00:12:08.010

thing. But I mean, what you're supposed to do, I don't know, but you know, it, it, they were still active in a sense, but obviously pretty low key. There was only, um, small numbers of women. Um, really for me, most of the, the unpleasantness and the things that had happened had occurred. They shared with me around the fire of an evening, but I already knew a lot

00:12:08.010 - 00:12:30.090

from my other friends who had spent time at Greenham and were very much more, you know, so I was, I was very aware when I went there, but it was good to have the interaction with the women as well. Um, and be part of it for the little bit I did and the short time. Yes. It was less than a year really that I was going there.

00:12:30.750 - 00:13:01.450

Yes. Thank you. And I understand there were some ladies from Japan that you became. Yeah. This was, this was quite amusing because we were all sitting around the fire. We'd had a bit of breakfast one morning was just sitting around, chatting, having a cup of cup of tea. And suddenly these women and I, tiny women that were really much shorter than us turned up. And

00:13:01.450 - 00:13:32.730

we soon realized because these women were actually Japanese. And we all kind of looked at each other. And then one of the women said, Oh my goodness. And they had had a connector, a letter from some women in Japan who had a peace camp there. And they'd heard about Greenham bearing in mind, there's no social, social, you know what I mean? They, you know, you have

00:13:32.730 - 00:13:55.690

letters, you have newspapers, you have television, which we didn't have. There was no electricity, obviously. Somehow they had heard about the, about Greenham and had said, we would like to come over. And so of course the girls just wrote back and said, yeah, anytime come join us. And they just turned up this particular day unexpectedly. And they said, what can we,

00:13:55.690 - 00:14:29.530

they gave me their tents and all their gear and they just set up as a group. And I'm going to say that they, it was obviously they had lived through the experience of nuclear, of a nuclear bomb. And, you know, it's very real for them what we were doing here in England, even though we hadn't been affected. And the problem was they had literally no English.

00:14:33.230 - 00:15:01.930

So unfortunately there wasn't a great deal of conversation, but the common purpose was there. And they just wanted to see, come and see what Yellow Gay were doing and to be there and part of it and experience it. And as I say, they were from a peace camp. I mean, I'm going to say Hiroshima, but I'm sure they were near there. If not there, it is so. And had been for many

00:15:01.930 - 00:15:30.750

years as well. So they just said, what can we do? And so we said, well, you know, just muck into, you know, nobody has any set jobs. Everybody just does. The dung is there, you know, if you need to go to the loo, this is that and that's it sort of thing. And then we got, what you see them pushing is actually was some sort of contraption that they built to go to the standpipe and get fresh water.

00:15:31.910 - 00:15:49.230

So what they were doing, they said, we'll go and get some water. And they said, well, it's up there and blah, blah, blah. And off they went and they came back, Julie, with these plastic containers with fresh water in. And that's that photo. And so do you know how long they stayed at the camp?

00:15:49.930 - 00:16:17.150

No, I don't. They were still there when I left and they'd gone when I, when I went back. So I'm, you know, it was only a matter of a week or two. They weren't there a great length of time. But yeah, it's quite, quite, quite interesting just experiencing them turning up and coming all that way just to experience Greenland. It's quite extraordinary. I mean, I know women did in

00:16:17.150 - 00:16:45.390

the heist of Greenland come from all over the world. I'm aware of that. But to see them turn up when there was just Yellowgate right at the end of it, making this last stand as it were, and refusing to go until the weapons had gone. And that's what they did do. But then when I said I then had to leave because I had a plan to do this trip, this traveling. And so I had to stop

00:16:45.390 - 00:17:13.470

going. But we knew that they had a withdrawal date at that time, that they were actually, the weapons were going and it was closing. And there was one heck of a celebration. But I then said to this woman, what's next? And they just said, Aldermaston. So they weren't actually giving up even at that. They were going to then, so I said I hope the

00:17:13.470 - 00:17:35.930

car and the caravan gets you there, you know, it's quite a trip. But the plan was to go there. And at that point, I was away for over a year. I traveled for over a year. So I kind of lost touch, basically. So I don't know what happened after that. Yes. And so I was interested when you said there was no organization of jobs,

00:17:36.570 - 00:18:01.810

and people just did, tell me how that worked. I think the thing is, because they, there were small numbers, they've been there that long, these women, they were all either permanent, virtually or semi permanently there, or whatever, everything just fell into place. They didn't need to delegate. I'm sure if there

00:18:01.810 - 00:18:27.810

was large numbers, you would have to, but under the circumstances with smaller numbers, it wasn't really necessary. Everybody knew what needed doing first up with the fire and so on. So they just went along. I think the other thing which is interesting for me is because there was a small number, in particular, that their menstrual cycle

00:18:28.610 - 00:18:45.970

fitted in completely with the phase of the moon. Right, how interesting. And they all, their menstrual cycle all went with the phase of the moon. And they all had their periods at the same time. And literally within that same period.

00:18:46.530 - 00:19:10.550

And I think that, you know, things like that, just living outside, living under the moon, how nature came back, not really anything necessarily to do with Greenham, but fascinating all the same. Yeah. Interesting. Could you paint a picture for me about sitting round the fire in an evening?

00:19:13.690 - 00:19:36.050

And were you telling stories? Or were you? Yeah, I mean, it is about sharing. I mean, depending on the time of the year, obviously, I mean, I was there till the end of the summer. So, you know, the evenings kind of got pretty cold. So the fire was essential. And you were very much in a blanket, big coats, because it

00:19:36.050 - 00:20:04.170

really didn't get cosy. It wasn't a late night that you were out, really, because there was no light, obviously. The summer evenings, obviously, would have been totally different in that sense. But yeah, it's just sharing things. But I think once we'd sort of made some food and an eat and a cup of tea or whatever, or if somebody was fortunate enough to have a beer,

00:20:04.170 - 00:20:31.030

they might have had a beer or something. But that's about it, really. It was just sharing, just sharing things. And especially for me, because I'm a bit of a curious person anyway, in as much as I want to know. So I was kind of picking their brains a lot the time I was there. And so what was the Janet Tavenner? How did you see that when that happened,

00:20:31.030 - 00:20:57.210

this woman that was killed there? And they were just so angry about that whole thing. And it was interesting to see their perspective on that, and various things that had happened that I was aware of, that I'd either read or heard from friends about. So yeah, there was lots of sharing of stuff. And they were interested in where I was going, because I was going walkabout with my

00:20:57.210 - 00:21:21.910

backpack and going off. And a woman of 40-odd doing that, they said, that's pretty unusual, Dawn. And I said, yeah, there's not a lot normal about me in that sense. It's the first time in my life I've had the opportunity to do it. And I thought, right, do it. Before you're too old, you can't do it. So that's what I did. Yeah, you're just sharing, talking, chatting. It's

00:21:21.910 - 00:21:53.270

lovely. And where were you off to? Where were you backpacking? Well, I was starting in Canada. I had a cousin in Canada, and I had a couple of friends in Canada. So I started in Canada. I then had friends. And my last stop, I headed due south, basically. And I went down into the States, into America. And I had a cousin in Oklahoma, where I got jabbed up because I was heading south.

00:21:54.810 - 00:22:23.690

But the main part of it for me, the kind of backpacking bit started when I hit Central America. And that's where I spent most of my time. And it was, yeah, all seven countries in all, I did. And just sort of wandered with a one-way ticket, no plans, which was wonderful, because I think it's all very nice. You'll look forward to a holiday, but you've kind of got like

00:22:23.690 - 00:22:45.510

this week slot or this two-week slot. And I hate that. And it was the first opportunity, because I had been a single parent for most of my son's life. You know, you don't have these choices. We didn't have the money. We didn't have the choices. I didn't have the choice to do these things. So it wasn't until he was sort of like, okay, he's doing his things, left home and he's

00:22:45.510 - 00:23:06.250

settled and blah, blah, blah. And all he said when I said I wanted to do it, I wanted to go walk about, he said, I said, how do you feel about it? If I say I'm going to go walk about, I'm not going to go blah, blah. He said, go for it, mum, not a problem. But can you ring me every, can you get in touch just every week? Let me know where you are and that you're okay. Because he didn't know

00:23:06.250 - 00:23:34.750

I was going to be any more than I did from week to week. So yeah, it was a year. So it was wonderful. I had a great time. But yes, it was good because I think from the women at Greenham, you know, it was kind of interesting for them to hear an output or rather an input from somebody else that wasn't there all the time and get some something interesting from them as well,

00:23:34.750 - 00:24:01.710

if they turned up. So likewise, if other women turned up, if we were asking them about their life or what they were doing, you know, and had they been to Greenham in its height and things like that. Just general chat, really. Yes. Oh, very great stuff. Good stuff. What did your son think about you going to Greenham, I wonder?

00:24:03.090 - 00:24:36.110

Oh, he was, well, I mean, he'd grown up with me working. I worked for over 11 years with Oxfam. So he grew up very much aware of my politics and my thoughts around the injustices and all the various stuff. I also dragged him along to the odd amnesty thing and things. So it was just part of who I was. So he was not at all surprised. But I mean, he was an adult at that time. So

00:24:37.690 - 00:25:09.930

no, he wasn't surprised at all. And I think, do you have some pictures of the murals done by Katerina? I think you have received one of them, haven't you? Yes. I gave one to Emma. And yeah, what that was, Katerina really was, I don't know if she saw herself as that, but I'm sure the others did. Very much the kingpin of Yellowgate. She's the one that had been there

00:25:09.930 - 00:25:40.790

the longest, had been there nine years. And she used to get sheeting or sailcloth or whatever whenever she could afford. And she had like a washing line in between the trees and she would paint these wonderful big murals. They were stunning. And I was really impressed with them when I got there and I thought, these are amazing. And at that time, I was anticipating

00:25:40.790 - 00:26:08.890

buying a little place that needed total refurbishment in Devon. And it had a big arch to sort of, and I said, if I gave you specific sort of sizes and things, could you do me two banners? Anything you want. They were all women-centred, obviously, but these two. And she said, oh, I'd love to. And I said, obviously, I will pay you and blah, blah, blah.

00:26:09.190 - 00:26:37.470

And so she made these two banners for me. Well, I never did buy the place, but I've always had them. And when I was talking to Emma and I said about the photographs, she said, had I got anything else? And I said, well, I've got these banners. I said, I've been looking after them all these years, but I haven't actually got them up.

00:26:37.850 - 00:27:05.970

This place I'm living in now is so tiny. So I said, I have these two banners. Well, I explained one to a friend of mine who totally fell in love with them, who came to see me. And I have a photograph of her. She's put it as she walks up the stairs to go to bed every night. There's this massive banner hanging down on the landing. So, you know, you can see the thing in

00:27:05.970 - 00:27:34.350

full. So she has that one, the other one I gave, which I'm happy to donate to Emma to give to you. So hopefully you've got that. But her work was amazing. I just loved it. I mean, it made a little bit of money for her as well. So rather than just sort of needing money, she could earn, you know, a bit of money to help. You don't really get an income if you don't have

00:27:34.350 - 00:28:11.070

an address, do you? It's difficult. Very hard. The financial side was always a struggle. And so why do you think the reason is that the suffrage movement seems to have been celebrated and the Green movement hasn't received the same kind of celebration? I think there's a mixed belief within people. I've had many conversations with various people

00:28:11.070 - 00:28:34.330

over the years. I mean, when I was a member of CND and I remember being on the marches and things, you get a lot of support, but you'd also get a lot of negative stuff from the public and things like that, that what you were doing was wrong and we need to defend our country. And so depending on the political, I think it's about politics,

00:28:34.370 - 00:29:03.410

basically, because I think the propaganda that was put out, especially at that time by governments was, you know, well, we've got to defend ourselves and that's why they're here and all this business. So, yeah, I think the public were divided, as I'm sure there was division in the suffragettes. I mean, there was an anti-women's suffragette movement as well, wasn't there? There's quite

00:29:03.410 - 00:29:37.130

more life down here, actually. I work at my local museum and they've got quite a lot of information about that here. And it's quite interesting. So, gosh, half of America voted Trump in, didn't they? I mean, come on, you know, you're always going to have something, you know, a section of society which will conflict with what to me seems right, but for them isn't.

00:29:37.850 - 00:30:14.470

And I think it's fear, a lot of it, a lot of it's fear-based, probably. I think a suffragette, I mean, it was purely a male situation that the control was so dominantly governed, women in that respect, that it was just a different movement. I think for, I mean, having said that, I mean, the press, the media really went to the town on

00:30:14.470 - 00:30:38.750

Greenham, didn't they? They really covered it big time. I can remember seeing it on the news and in the press, some of it good, some not. So, there's always going to be that split. Do you think they gave fair coverage? Do you know, I don't know that I can even remember it all. It was that long ago, I was,

00:30:38.950 - 00:31:03.970

I would have been biased anyway. And I'm a bit of a guard, if I'm going to buy a newspaper, it would be the Guardian. So, I'm a bit sort of, I'm always going to be toward the left. So, it was really from a political angle. And I think really, when it comes to press and media, politics play a big, big part in that. And when I think of what the governments were like in that,

00:31:04.130 - 00:31:33.230

you know, the governments were like at that point, at that time, they wouldn't have been at all supportive, obviously. So, they would have cast a shadow as much as they can, as they always have with women's issues, I think. It's always been a struggle and it always will be, I think. So, as I said, as I said with a friend, we were on a march in Exeter, not that long ago,

00:31:33.410 - 00:32:02.430

COVID has stopped us. But the Reclaim the Night march, you've probably heard of, about keeping women safe at night. And we were doing, we had a gathering, we did a lovely march in Exeter, the nearest city to where I live, here in Devon. And we were doing the march and everybody had had the opportunity to go in and make their own banner, if they wanted, in the

00:32:02.430 - 00:32:30.190

hall where we started. And people were writing their banners about keeping people's, women safe at night and the freedom for women. And one, my God, and you'll have to excuse my language here, because I need to swear, because that's what she said. And she just put on her banner, but she's my age, a bit younger than me, but she's kind of approaching, just approaching 70.

00:32:30.830 - 00:32:55.950

And she's got this banner and on it, it said, I can't believe I'm still doing this fucking stuff. Because in many respects, although we've had a lot of changes, there hasn't been enough, you know. And I mean, the nuclear weapons, poor old Scotland's got them, haven't they? So the nuclear stuff. So, you know, crazy. But there you go.

00:32:57.570 - 00:33:22.390

So you're getting there, you're getting better, but very slowly, your campaigning still goes on. I wonder if you think that the kind of the tactics for the Greenham campaign of non-violence, is there any learning to be taken from then to now, in terms of the way protests are made, do you think?

00:33:25.190 - 00:33:56.350

Well, of course, there was violence. The bit that some women might have gone a bit over the top at times. I mean, it basically was non-violent, but there were some women who didn't behave that well. Yellowgate were great sticklers to non-violence, totally across the board, they just wouldn't tolerate it. But I think in the heyday, there was a bit of naughty going on. From what I hear,

00:33:56.570 - 00:34:23.850

I wasn't there. But no, the violence was, if it was violence, was, you know, perpetrated by the other side. Well, of course, if the police are trying to, you know, if you're being manhandled, you're going to perhaps fight back, that kind of thing. I mean, that went on when I was on marches and all sorts of other places, it's no different. The difference is the men, the police on the whole,

00:34:24.110 - 00:34:45.430

it didn't matter whether they were women, they still were quite brutal at times. They were handled very badly, some of these women. They wouldn't just put them into a back of a van, they would literally physically throw them and things like that. So the police behaviour was pretty appalling from what I hear. I didn't experience it, I wasn't there.

00:34:46.110 - 00:35:20.550

It's what I've been told from other women. Personally, I'm a peaceful demonstrator. I don't like violence. I applaud violence of any kind, any type. So even though it's something I'm extremely passionate about, I might swear and shout at them, but I'm not going to be physically or destructive in any way other than that. I am responsible for sometimes swearing and

00:35:20.550 - 00:35:47.850

being rather abusive, but that's about as far as my violence goes. Personally, that's my thing. And do I take a knee for Black Lives Matter? Yes, I do. But it's peaceful demonstration, I don't like violence of any sort. Although I do understand why some people resort to it. So how would you like Greenham to be celebrated?

00:35:58.170 - 00:36:35.910

I think the word resilience comes in, for me, because I was there toward the end with only a small number of women still defiantly being there all that time with no intention at all of giving up. It's that resilience, I think, for me. And when you get like-minded women together, my goodness, they're powerful and they're strong and they're determined. And it's

00:36:35.910 - 00:37:01.410

amazingly empowering. It's interesting because for me at that time, going travelling, the one thing that people keep saying, I remember being with some friends in the pub and my friends saying, you know, why are you doing this? Why now? What are you doing going off travelling on your own down into Central America? I mean, El Salvador, Nicaragua, all these countries

00:37:01.410 - 00:37:23.970

that were so dreadful, at least of all Mexico. So they said, oh no, you're all dull. And I said, I want to do it. I want to do it. I've been putting it on. And the guys were the funny thing because they were saying, that's really dangerous. Are you going on your own? So I said, yes, I'm going on my own. And they said, well, that's a bit dangerous, isn't it? And I said, what's my

00:37:23.970 - 00:37:52.310

biggest fear? And they didn't want to say. I had to tell them, I said, it's you guys. It's men on the whole, whether it's a soldier or a guy out or somebody that's just short of money or whatever, as a backpacking woman on her own, the fear is fundamentally men. If I get sick, I've got insurance. You know, it's going to be men on the whole. And I said, you just don't

00:37:52.310 - 00:38:20.010

want to say it. And I said, if you think for one moment that a man is going to stop me doing what I want to do. No, you know, that is not going to stop me. And I think these women at Greenham, they took a lot of abuse from the police. They took a lot of, you know, OK, the police have a job to do. I appreciate, you know, it's difficult, but the kind of manhandling, the kind of behaviour

00:38:20.010 - 00:38:49.590

that went on and the behaviour and the treatment they got if they got taken to Holloway as well, wasn't much better. And, you know, there are ways and ways of controlling people. They have a job to do. But I think, you know, that kind of abusive behaviour is wrong. The suffragettes had it. And Greenham women had it and experienced it.

00:38:52.510 - 00:39:19.270

But, yeah, it's just the resilience. You know, if you're determined, you've just got to do it, don't you? Yeah, don't let anything stop you. Wonderful message. And kind of looking forwards now, why do you think it is important that Greenham is remembered by future generations?

00:39:22.790 - 00:39:51.270

Yeah, it's more relevant, I think, as if not more relevant today than the real threats. But it's all to do with the whole nuclear thing. It's not just Greenham. Greenham is part of that group of determined people who are trying desperately. I mean, once upon a time, CND was quite powerful in this country. Young people don't hear about it today.

00:39:52.190 - 00:40:19.230

They just don't hear about it. It's not something that's spoken about. Whereas, you know, as we know, 60s, 70s, that era, you know, CND, all right, it was fashionable. But it was also very active. And unfortunately, these things have just really... Unless you get a body of people and you get enough people to have enough power

00:40:19.230 - 00:40:52.430

to bring it to the attention of the media and things like that, that's what brings the numbers in. But today, with social media, which because we didn't have in those days, it was just the press and TV or radio. Today, I mean, I say this lightly, it's very easy to activate, you know, to get people active. You've got to be so careful with that, because obviously,

00:40:52.430 - 00:41:24.150

it can be a very damaging thing if you're attracting not necessarily like-minded people, you get people for the wrong reasons. I think nuclear power sadly is here. The resistance isn't there from the public, for whatever reason, younger people. I don't know, they just maybe just seem to accept it, the fact that it's part of life.

00:41:26.410 - 00:41:48.350

And they're more, I don't know, really, I don't mix with enough young people, to be perfectly honest, I should. But I don't. So I haven't really discussed it with many young people and their attitude toward nuclear power and the whole thing. I mean, we're building this, we're supposed to be building this new station, aren't we, for nuclear?

00:41:50.550 - 00:42:15.670

You know, it's still very much ongoing. I don't, I honestly don't know. I honestly don't know, because I don't think I'm as in touch with what's going on out there as I used to. I live in Sidmouth, there's so many elderly people here. So I, and you know, there's a lovely amnesty group. And you know, we're still around. But

00:42:16.830 - 00:42:41.770

my banner waving days are sort of coming toward an end now. I haven't got the energy to hold the thing up, least of all anything else. So I think it's down to young people. But there seems to be a bit of apathy out there. You just don't hear about any, you know, many people. I mean, I may be underplaying this, I may, there may be, I don't know, tens of hundreds,

00:42:41.950 - 00:43:03.910

thousands of young people out there who are very, but I don't know, is really what I'm saying, because I'm really not that in touch with young people. I should be, but I'm not. Maybe in your museum, there'll be a little Greenham corner. Oh, well, no, there's not a Greenham, because we're local, of course. But as I say, the suffragette,

00:43:04.870 - 00:43:42.550

we celebrated in the museum, the suffragette movement, and their centenary, as the couple of lovely home houses and places with the National Trust did a grand job, I think, on the suffragette movement, their centenary, I thought it was really good. So, yeah, yeah, it's, but I think the Greenham, it's interesting that it always, it took women, and I think history has always,

00:43:42.810 - 00:44:07.410

I think, supported the fact that if you want wars, it's men, and if you want peace, it's women. It just seems that this is women's role. We try to make peace, don't we, on the whole? I won't say everybody, but on the whole, we try to make peace, and we want things nice, don't we? We don't want power in the same way on the whole, and we're just seen as different

00:44:07.410 - 00:44:32.750

beings, I think. For that reason, I think the fact that there were very few men there set it all, really. I mean, there were some men, obviously, there were lots of men who supported the suffragette movement, but, you know, it was very much a women-centred thing, even though the men benefited from it, as we know. And there were many husbands who supported

00:44:32.750 - 00:44:55.610

their wives, many husbands and partners who supported their wives at the camp. Yeah, yeah. Did you ever meet any of them? Yeah, well, yeah, I met, over the years, I met loads of women. I mean, you know, I, through my connections with Oxfam, of course, who, you know, we hated anything to do most,

00:44:55.830 - 00:45:21.930

you know, colleagues and things like that hated. It's just, I wasn't allowed to get involved in that sense, but be actively involved. I think they were worried I was going to get arrested, and then, oh gosh, you know, bring Oxfam into it or something. They probably didn't trust me. And the thing was, I was the area manager for Central London, so I think because it was,

00:45:22.130 - 00:45:49.930

everything was London-centred, as it still is, tends to be, and so, consequently, I think I was a little bit more volatile to anything in the press. So, yeah, yeah, it's difficult, it was, it's difficult. But yes, loads of men were incredibly supportive. My son just sort of, yeah, well, you would, wouldn't you, mum, kind of thing, because that's

00:45:49.930 - 00:46:21.050

what I did, you know, because I could equally have been on a CND thing or something else, Greenpeace, all those, all those things are trying to make it a better world for people, but yeah. And so do you have any questions that you wish I might have asked that you would like to answer? The only thing that was incredibly futile that went on, I think, was the behaviour of the

00:46:21.050 - 00:46:45.730

local council and the bailiffs, really. But again, it was probably a legal thing, they were, they were going through this process of turning up every week, you know, uninvited, and just turfing the women off the land, you had to physically remove everything, otherwise they would take it. And they used to come with this, this open back truck, wire cage truck, which,

00:46:45.730 - 00:47:14.210

you know, they used for clearing rubbish, I suppose, around the borough. And they'd turn up uninvited, toot their horn, to let, you know, sometimes early in the morning, women weren't even up, and they'd have to scramble. And they'd only give them so much time to clear everything off the land and drive the vehicles off and everything. You know, they weren't about to leave them

00:47:14.210 - 00:47:43.190

in peace at all. And I think that was even, even right up the end, even right up to when I was there. You know, it just seemed rather futile and petty, they weren't doing anything wrong by being there. But that could have been, and I think we did discuss this, because I said this is ridiculous, why are they doing that? And they all said, oh, they come, you know, when I first

00:47:43.190 - 00:48:12.790

started going there, oh, we come every, about every week dawn, they just turn up and toot their horn early in the morning and make us take down the tents. And then they would just kick out the fire and put the fire out. Petty, really, you know, but I do remember discussing it. Well, it's probably a bylaw, which, you know, laws do, you know, as much as they were sort of,

00:48:12.870 - 00:48:35.910

if you like, tolerating them still being there. Technically, they could come and they legally were allowed to come and do this thing every now and again, which was also very unpleasant. But yeah, the women were used to it, they've been doing it for years. It's just something they accepted that had to be done.

00:48:36.590 - 00:49:00.050

And presumably, they then had to relight the fire and set up the camp again. Yeah, and these guys, I mean, you know, they knew that's exactly what would happen. But still, they come do this thing every, as I said, about every week, whenever, you know, it's usually, as I say, early in the morning, which was almost like they did it on purpose, you know,

00:49:00.050 - 00:49:26.510

we'll come and get them out, you know, half the time the women were still asleep. So yeah. Yeah, but as you know, they had a job to do. I mean, it wasn't their fault, somebody made the decision, not them, I suppose. And so finally, then, how would you sum up your Greenham experience, reflecting on it now?

00:49:30.050 - 00:49:56.010

I think for women, and I think for a lot of women, I don't know, I can't speak for the other women, but I know I have heard it said, and I've said it myself in the past, I think it's quite, whenever you get a kind of solidarity in a group of women together, it's an empowering thing. That's why I think it's important not to have violence,

00:49:56.970 - 00:50:27.470

and to be, you know, very much a non-violent, because you put a gang of human beings together, and they're angry. You know, sometimes they don't behave how personally I feel they should. And so I think passive, non-violent, aggressive demonstrations and such are great. I've done it all my life, one way or another, for various things. And I think,

00:50:30.210 - 00:51:00.950

yeah, I don't like anger, but you do find people being very angry. But for me, personally, I just found it very empowering, and wonderful to see how strong women can be, and how, as I say, that word resilience for me is something, and determined women can be when they're together. We've always, as people were saying to me when I went backpacking,

00:51:01.250 - 00:51:27.530

you're very vulnerable on your own, but you know, how can you do that? But it's very obvious when there's a group of women, they are extremely powerful. And those women were powerful, resilient, determined, all those things. And it's a wonderful energy. I felt very privileged to be as much as it was only a small part of it. And yeah, never forget it. It was great.

00:51:28.770 - 00:51:51.810

I do wonder where those women are now, what they're doing, and how they are. Were they a little bit younger than me? I was 40. Would I have been 41? I suppose something like that. So some of them are quite a bit, you know, a little bit younger than me, although they weren't youngsters. They weren't young,

00:51:51.870 - 00:52:23.710

young. They weren't teenagers. But yeah, it'd be interesting to know if they did get to Lord of Marston and carry on their determined fight there. Very privileged to be there. Right. That's a wonderful note to end on, if you have nothing else that you wish to add. And so I'd like to say thank you very much for taking this time and sharing your story.