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So I'd like to start by asking you how did you become involved with Greenham? Well I came down to Southampton from Bolton where I grew up to the university and I started a maths degree which I then dropped out of after a year because I didn't really know why I was doing it. But I still lived in a shared house with students and so I think I actually

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probably spent more time up at the university when I wasn't actually studying there because I joined various groups like CND and Third World First as it was called then. I guess there must have been a women's group or there was certainly a really strong women's movement at the time and there was a local group called Families Against the Bomb which

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I don't know if you know Di, she had a camper van and so she used to take a whole group of us up to Greenham for demonstrations or I think I mean I probably only ever stayed just overnight a couple of times before there were demos but I didn't actually live there but that was really how I got involved just with CND at the university and the women's group and Di I guess.

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And so which gateway did you stay at? You know I can't really remember, I mean I remember going to the main gate. I mean I would have been 19 or 19, 20, 21 at that time and my memories are a bit vague to be honest. So I can't really remember what all the gates were, I think we went to Bluegate, was that on

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the other side? We actually stayed overnight just kind of vivid really outside the gate because then they were bringing cruise missiles in the following day and there were there were police on horses that were trying to clear us away. I don't think they actually hurt anybody but it was quite, I think some people were quite scared. I think I was quite

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naive really, I didn't really feel particularly scared from what I remember because I just didn't you know I was quite naive about what could happen I suppose but yeah so we stayed that night and I think it was Bluegate. The very first time that I went there actually was with a small, just with probably three or

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four other people and it was a mixed group and there weren't other people there, it was just like in Woodland and we just camped in Woodland there and I think that was from the CND group but we just stayed overnight in a tent and then went back you know came back to Southampton. It wasn't a demo or anything from what I remember, it was just I think we were just doing a bit

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of the kind of pilgrimage we'd heard about Greenham happening and just went to have a look but we had a couple of men in the group so we didn't stay where there were other people. Yes and so when you first arrived what were your first impressions? Was it like you had expected it to be?

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I don't think I had any expectations, I don't think, you know I was fairly new to politics I suppose and I hadn't really studied history particularly and so I didn't really know what to expect. I suppose I mean it was exciting because it was so unusual

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and because it was all women and it was it was, you know, there was a different kind of ethos I suppose. I mean it is a bit like Extinction Rebellion does kind of remind me of that in that you know they try to be, you know, involve everybody and it's all a bit wacky with the hand signals and everything,

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you know, it's different ways of doing things I suppose and not just having a few men sort of dominating which often even now I think happens in groups. Yeah so it was quite exciting and I mean I'd never seen anything like it. I mean you know as a child we'd been to caravans on holiday but we'd never been camping so it was all quite

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sort of, I don't know, earthy and kind of real and natural and yeah sort of primal or something. Thank you and you met, you had some friends and you're still in contact with those friends I understand, is that right? I've got one friend particularly who actually I didn't know particularly well at Greenham, although I do have a photograph of her at Greenham if I can,

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I don't know if you'd be if you'd be able to see it but this photo of me talking to, you probably can't see it, yeah me talking to a policeman and then there's a woman here in a white polo neck jumper that's my friend Ingrid and I'm still good friends with her although as I say I wasn't particularly friends with her at the time and it's just that she

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was involved, she lived in Southampton too so yeah so I'm in touch with her. I'm not really in touch with a lot of people and I'm kind of sad about that, I mean some of them I've tried to look up on Facebook but not managed to find, I mean there was this, there was a woman, I mean this woman here who's with Di's, two of Di's triplets here,

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everybody called her Blue and we were really quite close because I think because I had a bit more time because I wasn't doing anything, I dropped out of university and she was very driven, she'd grown up on kind of army bases or RAF bases because her dad was in I think in the RAF or the army, I'm not sure which and she was really,

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she'd really kind of rebelled and so the two of us would often you know sort of get involved with things and one of my photos there is we did a fast, I think it must have been, I don't know if there was a kind of nationally organised one but we, because all our leaflets, we did our own leaflets about this fast for life which was Hiroshima day to Nagasaki day and

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this was the leaflet, I don't know if you can see that fast for life and we camped, well camped, we just slept by the bar gate in Southampton which is just like this monument in the middle of Southampton and we just slept on the pavement outside and a few other people came and joined us and we just drank water for three days and I think we did it perhaps three times, three years.

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Yeah it was, it was quite an experience. And how did you feel after the three days of fasting? Well again I don't really remember but I, what I do, I do remember being a bit sick at one point you know kind of vomiting bile because you know I mean it wasn't something I'd ever done before.

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Yeah but I mean it was, it was okay. I guess, I mean it was quite hard, it was quite hard to do and we were right outside a Burger King or something, something like that. In fact we used to go into Burger King to use the toilets to have a wash and a wee in the morning. And how were you received by Burger King?

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Um I think they didn't mind, I think they let us do it because I mean there were only a handful of us so it wasn't like it was lots of people traipsing in and I guess it was quite a time of day for them. So I don't remember them objecting, yeah. What was the relationship like with the local residents around the camp or with the

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police or the military? At Greenham? I think, I mean I guess it was quite mixed because you'd get, you'd get people driving past and honking their horns and being supportive and then you'd also get people driving past and

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shouting and I mean I can't remember any particular kind of abuse that they'd throw at the camp but I mean certainly there was a feeling that it was quite mixed. The, uh, the police I guess were, um, I mean some of, some of them were probably quite supportive, I don't know, um some of them less so. I mean they did used to drag us around

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but I don't, I mean I was, I was never hurt, um, and, uh, the, the, I do have a memory of one, one time, um, I mean just, just going back to the residents, I don't, I don't really remember residents particularly because it all seemed like it was very much in the country, there didn't seem to be very many people living around there,

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um, I mean the, the women actually living on the camp may have had more experience of that but just going for the day we didn't really get a feeling of that at all, um, I mean I think we probably felt a bit, you know, like people thought we were odd, um, but there were an awful lot of us, you know, to be odd really, we, um,

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but I still feel rather odd, you know, that people, people, um, you know, people, I don't know, people don't expect women to stick up for each other or, um, hmm, anyway, perhaps we'll go back to that, uh, yeah, so I was, I was remembering, um, one time when we were arrested, um, I'm trying to think actually, I, I think it was probably,

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I, I can't remember if it was Greenham or, or Upper Hayford, I have a feeling it might have been Upper Hayford, uh, because there were two, two or three times I was arrested, um, and, um, we were in a, there were a few of us in a cell, and I remember I, I wrote something on the wall of the cell, and, um, and the, um, when the, the, there was a woman police officer who came in,

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and, uh, and she, I mean, you know, there were other things written on the wall, I don't know how she particularly noticed, but she said, who wrote that, and, and, um, nobody kind of, none of us said anything, um, and then eventually I think I caved in and said it was me or something, and then when, um, when they came to, um, they, I don't think, when they, yeah, when they came

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to charge us and release us, um, she made a bit of a thing of this being criminal damage, and, you know, I, I, looking back, I, I can, you know, she must have, she must have thought, oh, yeah, you know, this is some kind of naive middle-class girl who's, you know. You remember what she wrote on the wall that made her notice it? Yeah, well, you know,

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I can't remember what it was, um, I mean, you know, I don't know, some kind of poem or something, I don't know, but, um, yeah, she obviously quite enjoyed kind of scaring me, I think. Which was, you know, interesting, I suppose, being, and being a woman as well. And so how long did you spend in the cell?

00:17:05.610 - 00:17:33.090

Um, well, so that, I mean, we, I can't remember there, I mean, a few hours maybe, um, uh, I was thinking actually that can't have been Upper Hayford, because at Upper Hayford they kept us in a gym, in some leisure centre, because there were so many of us, um, and, uh, so we were there for a good few hours, unless they then transferred us,

00:17:33.370 - 00:17:56.610

actually, they might have then just transferred us in little groups to the police station, um, but it's all a bit blurry, you know, I mean, it's a long time ago. Do you remember how many times you were arrested? Well, I think it was possibly three, and I think maybe one time I wasn't charged, um,

00:17:57.830 - 00:18:33.290

at Upper Hayford, which I think was probably the first time, we paid, we paid the fine, we went, we had to go to court, and, and I think it was the local CND group paid the fine, um, and then, um, at Greenham, when, when we were arrested at Greenham, there were, I was in, I was in court with eight, there were eight of us all together in court, and it was my

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21st birthday, and I'd, um, I'd spent the weekend with my family at my brother's house, my brother and his wife's house, um, and my mum had been very upset about the thought of me going to court and being arrested, and had hugged me, and, and kind of made me promise that I would pay the fine, and, yeah, so it was probably our second time in court, because I think initially we, uh,

00:19:12.470 - 00:19:41.350

yeah, I, we were probably bailed for a week or something, I can't remember, anyway, so, so then, um, because it was a civil offence, but then because we didn't pay the fine, it became a criminal offence, um, and, and then I remember getting back to Southampton, and I rang my mum and just said, well, actually, you know, I don't want to pay the fine, and, um, and after that,

00:19:41.350 - 00:20:09.830

I don't think she ever talked to me about it again, um, and I never brought it up. She never, I can't remember her ever asking me what it was like, or, um, because then from, from the court there, they, um, they sent us down to the, the cells at Newbury, and we were in the cells there. We each had an individual cell, um, and the thing I remember

00:20:09.830 - 00:20:36.030

about that is that we had to sleep with the light on, the light was on all night, and then during the day, um, we, we all went into a big cell together, a kind of communal cell, um, which was, which was okay, because there were eight of us together. I didn't, I didn't know the other women, but, um, but obviously, you know, we, we were comrades,

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I suppose, um. What was the mood like as you were all gathered? Yeah, I mean, it was quite, it was quite upbeat, you know, and, and I, I think the, the, the police who were looking after us were, were quite upbeat about it. I mean, they weren't, they weren't horrible to us, or I, I remember them going to get somebody, um, some, uh, it's funny what you remember, isn't it? I

00:21:04.610 - 00:21:41.750

mean, I may have misremembered, but going to get some, uh, beans on toast for somebody who was vegan, you know, um, they, they seemed, you know, quite kind of human, really, and then, um, after we spent two nights there, and then they took us to Holloway for two nights and split us up there, so the first night I was there, I was in a cell, again with, I think, um, seven other women, but,

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but I didn't know them at all, they weren't Greenham women, um, so they, they were in prison for all sorts of different things, um, and we were in bunk beds in this, this room, and, and I receive loads of cards, loads of supportive cards, um, that I've still got somewhere, actually, um, and, uh, yeah, I think they were quite interested in, in what was going on, and, um,

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but I felt quite, kind of, guilty, because I was in there, and wasn't going to be in there for, for very long, and I've got all this support from people outside, and all these other women were in there for what seemed like really, kind of, minor offences, and when, you know, we're not necessarily going to get out of that situation, you know, even if they were released, they, they weren't,

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they were still released to a, kind of, shitty, kind of, life, where it might happen again, so, um, yeah, so that was the first night, and then the second night, I was just in a cell with two other women, and one of them was a, kind of, middle-aged woman, who was, her, her mum was also in Holloway, on another wing, um, because they'd been accused of fraud, credit card fraud,

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um, but she, she had been going out with a policeman, or something, and, and she said he'd framed them, or it wasn't true, or, anyway, I obviously don't know the, um, the truth of it, um, but it sounded, you know, like a pretty, kind of, sad situation, and, and there was a young woman who, um, had a, a young baby that her dad was looking after, and she, I mean, she was really,

00:23:50.830 - 00:24:22.610

kind of, um, young and vulnerable, really, um, and, uh, and, and she, uh, she had an asthma attack while we were in there, and, and I knocked, I, I, sort of, shouted for help, pressed the bell, or whatever, shouted for help, and, um, and one of the, the women officers came to the, came to the door, but she wouldn't come in, because she thought it was, you know, we were going to attack her,

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or something, she, so she wouldn't actually give us the, um, the inhaler. I think, eventually, she did, but, um, you know, got some backup, or something, and, and opened the door, but, um, that really shocked me, because I'd never come across that before, you know, I mean, I was that middle-class, naive, um, 21-year-old, um, having had an easy life, really.

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And how were you treated whilst you were in Holloway for those two days? Um, I mean, I don't, I think we, we weren't particularly, kind of, singled out, I mean, we were just treated like everybody else, I mean, I think it, um, what I felt I saw, and learned, from being in there, was, um, different ways, um, that, that the women reacted

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to the power imbalance, you know, um, because some women became very, kind of, submissive, and trying to, kind of, um, uh, get what they wanted, or, or whatever, um, just by, by being quite submissive, um, and then there were, there were others who were really, kind of, feisty, and tried, trying to, sort of, um, um, be, uh, be more, kind of, aggressive, and get

00:26:05.990 - 00:26:36.770

what they wanted, so it was, it was quite, I mean, it's a real, kind of, I suppose, it's a real parent-child, um, kind of, relationship, isn't it, um, you know, where you're, you're in there, and you don't have any power, um, but, I mean, for me, I was only in there for two nights, and then I was out, and people came, and picked me up, and, um, you know, I had lots of support,

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whereas most of the people in there wouldn't, so it did teach me a lot. There were cockroaches, and there was a, in the, sort of, communal, um, cell, there was a toilet, just in a, kind of, little cubicle, without a door in the corner, and there were cockroaches that came up at night, and, yeah, it wasn't very nice, but I don't, I mean, I don't remember it being particularly uncomfortable,

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or, you know, mind you, I'd slept on the, I'd slept at the bar gate on the pavement, so I suppose, you put up with things at 21, don't you, that you don't as you get older. And so, what effect did, did all of this have on your friends, and, you know, you've spoken about your mother didn't ever say anything else to you about it, but what effect did it have on

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your personal life? Um, hmm, I mean, obviously, you know, most of my friends were, were pretty left-wing anyway, or involved in some kind of non-violent direct action, or, or in the Labour Party, or, you know, so, so most of my friends would have been generally supportive. I, it would be, I mean,

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I don't, you know, as I was saying, I, I haven't really kept in contact with a lot of people from, a lot of women from that time, um, and, and it would be interesting to, to discuss what it was like, what the experience was like. But I think, I think we all had different experiences of it, really.

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Listening to some of the other things that, that other women have said, you know, there were women from so many different kinds of backgrounds and situations that none of us had the same experience of it, really. So how do you think the media represented Greenham?

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Um, I don't think I paid a lot of attention. I was too, too busy to kind of watch the news, or anything particularly. So, um, so I don't know, but I have got this, um, I had this cutting from the, the local Daily Echo in Southampton, um, that says, uh, Peace Woman refuses to pay fine, birthday in custody. Southampton Peace Woman, Carolyn Barnes,

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spent her 21st birthday in police custody at the start of a seven-day prison sentence for refusing to pay fines imposed after she took part in a blockade at Greenham Common. Um, and it goes on and it, you know, it's quite, uh, it's quite a nice little, um, article. It doesn't say, you know, shameful woman or anything like that.

00:29:58.130 - 00:30:20.770

And it was, I think it was on the front page or it was certainly, uh, you know, it was quite, uh, quite prominent anyway. So maybe not the front page, but, um, yeah. So, so I don't know, I suppose, I mean, like now, you know, the, there's such a mixture of views, isn't there? Everywhere.

00:30:22.090 - 00:30:56.090

So why do you think it was that the suffrage movement seems to have had more publicity than Greenham? Why do you think that was? Um, I mean, I think it's possibly, I mean, I know it's 40 years ago, but it's possibly, um, kind of too recent, you know, I mean, it's easy to be supportive of women, you know, fighting

00:30:56.090 - 00:31:41.410

for equality a hundred years ago or something, but, um, I mean, like I said, I still feel like we're, you know, we were odd in a way. In what way odd? Well, I suppose, I mean, to some extent, we, uh, you know, part of the point of it was to be opposed to the way things are, to the, the, um, the power in society. Um, so we were kind of the outlaws, you know, the, the people who were,

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um, you know, the witches, the, the mad women, or, you know, people that, that weren't going along with the status quo and, and the way things are. Um, I mean, like others, you know, have been kind of, um, put down, I suppose, or minimised or, you know, to, to minimise the threat of it, I suppose, you know, a lot, a lot of us, um, at that time, I mean, you know, like for me,

00:32:27.130 - 00:33:05.670

I was involved in all that. And then once I, um, once I met somebody and had children, then I didn't have time to think about anything like that anymore. I didn't, I didn't have time to keep in touch with people or, or, um, you know, the, just having, um, having children and trying to, uh, trying to at that stage start a career, that was kind of enough. That was, um,

00:33:07.050 - 00:33:33.330

it was quite, quite hard, but I mean, I don't, you know, not everybody would have been in my situation, I suppose, but maybe, maybe quite, I mean, I guess there were probably quite a lot of, um, students involved or young women. Um, but I mean, there were all sorts of women there, weren't there, you know, from different, like I say, from different backgrounds and different

00:33:33.330 - 00:34:12.630

situations. So I don't, I don't know, I guess they also went off and, you know, lived, have lived their lives and not really had a chance to come back together again. Um, I mean, it was really powerful. Um, and, and I guess, um, the, I mean, there is footage, isn't there, there's film footage, but there isn't loads of it, you know, like now everybody, everybody's got a phone and a camera

00:34:12.630 - 00:34:43.250

and takes photos all the time. Um, and I guess what we had was a lot more limited. Um, but yeah, I don't know, I don't know why. I mean, maybe these things always come in waves and, and you make some kind of little inroad, but, um, you know, like cruise missiles are taken away,

00:34:43.250 - 00:35:08.510

but then we still got Trident and, um, you know, it's not really completely gone away. It's just abated a bit. And so what do you think today's generation of activists might be able to learn from the experiences of the Green and women?

00:35:09.230 - 00:35:39.810

Well, you know, I mean, I don't know how all those events were really organised because I just went along. Um, but, but just how that, how things were organised must be something to learn from because, because it was quite amazing to have so many, so many women there. I mean, to, to actually encircle the base holding hands,

00:35:41.630 - 00:35:55.050

um, was quite amazing. Do you take part in that? Yeah. Yeah. Just describe it, what it felt like and how long you were there doing that for?

00:35:56.130 - 00:36:25.430

Well, I mean, I think, I think like a lot of demos where there's a lot of people, it's a little bit, um, a little bit scary, I suppose, in that you don't know exactly what's going to happen. Um, but I was there with other people that I knew and, and so we, we just, we had somewhere to go. Um, and we, yeah, I mean, it was just amazing how we all, I mean, I think there was a bit of

00:36:25.430 - 00:36:52.950

kind of tramping around trying to find a space, um, but then actually all holding hands around the base was just amazing. And, and then we did another, another thing as well where, where we pulled the fence down, um, where we were cutting, you know, we, we all went with bolt cutters and,

00:36:53.750 - 00:37:14.690

um, and cut the fence and actually, and pulled it down. How did you smuggle bolt cutters into the camp? Well, it wasn't into the camp. I mean, we, we kind of, um, I mean, I think because it was so sort of big and in the middle of nowhere and, you know, there were places where you could go and,

00:37:14.690 - 00:37:44.170

and not, not really be, I mean, we, I can't, I think we just, we, we went up there early in the morning and, and they must've known that, I mean, there were, there were, um, uh, squaddies, you know, on the inside of the fence, um, just kind of spread out.

00:37:44.830 - 00:38:12.830

But I mean, it was a huge fence, so, you know, they, they needed loads of, loads of them, so that, I mean, they couldn't really do anything about it except watch us. And, and we just, um, so we just had, we sort of waited until a particular time in the morning, and then we just, we just went up to the fence and started cutting it with bolt cutters and, and got on each other's

00:38:12.830 - 00:38:55.150

shoulders and, and cut it and pulled it and, and just pulled it down. So, I mean, it was, and, and sang and, you know, it was just, it was just really, um, yeah, kind of benign, really, you know, it wasn't, it, we didn't hate them or anything. And I think they were quite kind of bemused. I mean, we're, you know, women's groups made amazing

00:38:55.150 - 00:39:31.550

banners and, um, yeah, we did lots of singing. I mean, so my friend Ingrid, um, has, has been involved with Extinction Rebellion to some extent, um, and, uh, so I guess, you know, she's probably shared what she knows, um, with the local group. Um, but I guess it was some kind of web. And I mean, now we actually have an electronic web,

00:39:31.690 - 00:40:05.350

don't we? So it must be easier. I, I just don't know how they, how they got the word out. Um, and I suppose a lot of what we did wasn't, wasn't necessarily, um, illegal. Uh, you know, holding hands around the base. I mean, there's nothing illegal about that. It's just very kind of powerful and, um, and symbolic, isn't it? It's, um, yeah.

00:40:07.330 - 00:40:31.030

They're powerful and non-violent. Yes, yeah. So how well do you believe the legacy of Greenham has been passed down through the generations? Um, well, I, I don't know that it has very well.

00:40:34.230 - 00:41:02.950

Um, because, I mean, maybe some women have managed to, but, but personally, I feel because, because we all dispersed really, um, you know, I mean, my children know, you know, I've got, I've got this little collage thing, you know, that they could read if they were interested, but I mean, they don't, you know, like children, as children, we don't really have a much of a

00:41:02.950 - 00:41:31.890

sense of our parents' lives before we existed, do we? So I kind of feel like they probably don't have a great sort of sense of what happened. Do you think it would make any difference if they did know? Um, I think, I think it would be really good for, for their generation to know what happened.

00:41:32.430 - 00:42:03.830

It did surprise me. I mean, you know, I probably hadn't really thought about it before, but it surprised me when, when my, uh, my daughter and her friends and my niece didn't know about Greenham, they didn't know what Greenham was. They did, they, they'd never heard of it. Um, I remember I had, um, I had a video of, um, there was a kind of, there was a programme where

00:42:03.830 - 00:42:32.210

they used to, um, have sort of news of a particular year and, and the music of the time. And I don't know if you remember it. Um, and there was, there was one, um, there was one, I think it must've been 1984 and I, I've not been able to find it. I can't find it in my videos cause I videoed it off the, of the telly cause I was in it. It was like my, you know, my moment

00:42:32.210 - 00:43:03.810

of fame where I was crying and then I was being dragged by a policeman and, um, and then I lost it. And, and I've, I think it's the one, the one year that you can't find on YouTube or something. So, uh, so, or, you know, I just can't be famous after all. And so, so why, why do you think it is important that Greenham is remembered?

00:43:04.490 - 00:43:39.850

And if so, what should it be remembered for? Um, I, I think I can't, I can't remember any of the situation where, where women have come together in such numbers, um,

00:43:43.170 - 00:44:27.630

and yet, you know, peacefully, but, but powerfully. And I, I think it's, it was quite unusual. Um, and I, I mean, I think we've got, we've still got, um, we've still got changes to make, haven't we? We've, there's still, there's still a lot of, um, abuse and, uh, you know, people having power who shouldn't, or, you know, who aren't using

00:44:27.630 - 00:45:05.190

it well, or, and selfishness and greed and inequality. And, you know, a lot of those things still exist. Um, and, um, so we still haven't made that different world. I mean, sometimes it looks like we have, you know, there are, you see it in some places, um, you see people working together and, um, and being kind and, and, and, you know, people

00:45:06.670 - 00:45:40.230

feel a lot of the time feel more civilized. Um, but certainly that isn't always the case. And, and we haven't created the, the kind of world that, that encourages that. Um, and discourages the, the bad things, the unhelpful things. So do you have any thoughts on why did it just fade away? There seemed to be no

00:45:40.230 - 00:46:17.930

ending. People just drifted away from the camp. Any thoughts on why that was? Well, I, I guess, um, the, I mean, the cruise missiles were taken away, weren't they? And the, the common reverted back to being a common. Um, so I suppose it, it felt like that had that. I don't know if, is it like a, a wound in the immune system? You see how I work in,

00:46:18.130 - 00:46:43.830

I work in the NHS now. So everything, everything becomes a kind of, um, uh, uh, relate in relation to the body or something. And it was almost like that was a kind of inflammatory wound and all these, all these women came to kind of heal it and then it was healed. And then, you know, what, what else was there to do? Except then, I mean, those, you know, all, all of us women have gone

00:46:43.830 - 00:47:15.010

out and probably had some influence in our own lives to heal and to make things better. Um, so it's probably, it's just that there hasn't been that kind of focus for such a, such a long time until, you know, I mean, obviously like, you know, Greta Thunberg and the, the extinction rebellion and, and those things have, um, so it's just a slightly

00:47:15.010 - 00:47:52.030

different focus now, isn't it? I mean, those, um, they all seem, it feels like they're all part of the same thing, really the same, um, kind of drive, um, that we need to resist and change and heal. Mm. So I guess that was, I mean, you know, for me, obviously, you know, I was in my twenties and then I, I don't know, I, I've got a job or something. People's lives changed, didn't

00:47:52.030 - 00:48:20.450

they? Yeah. So is there any other question you would like me to ask that I haven't thought of? Is there anything else as we come almost to the end now? Um, no, I think you've asked some really good questions. Yeah. And you've certainly got me thinking and, and talking and waffling on.

00:48:21.490 - 00:48:29.410

It was all really, really interesting. So thank you very much. Hey, it's a pleasure. Thank you.