00:00:00.000 - 00:00:25.820

First off, Betty, do you want to just let me know how you how you came to be at Greenham? Well, I suppose I was already quite involved in peace movement and anti-nuclear things and I'd been, I'd occupied, one of the people who'd occupied Luxillion in Cornwall before that, as well as tourness and campaigns about other things, waste dumping at sea, off the Cornish

00:00:25.820 - 00:00:56.720

coast, so it was a natural place for me to go in many ways. I suppose at that time I was almost a four-time protester, although I had a base in Cornwall that I lived at, but if there was something in the air I would sniff it. So I went up to Oxford for a weekend of workshops. I couldn't go at the very beginning, the walk from Wales, because I was doing a boat building course that

00:00:56.720 - 00:01:18.460

I'd waited for a couple of years to be on because every year, funnily enough, there were about 16 people on the course and they only taught one woman. It was just a coincidence that every year there was one woman and so it took me a few years to get on the course. But as soon as that was finished I hitched off up to Oxford with my boat building toolbox, which was very heavy, and

00:01:18.460 - 00:01:43.000

of course at that time, after a couple of months of the women being at Greenham, or the people being at Greenham, there were things going on everywhere. There were the new peace groups setting up and Campaign Atom was already fully active in Oxford, big big peace group, and I went to one of their workshops and there I met a very wonderful woman called Caroline. You may have

00:01:43.000 - 00:02:09.880

come across one of the women who walked from Wales, from Bordy, and she almost, even though I'd intended to hitch down to Greenham anyway the following week, she almost headhunted me. I think she liked that I had a sense of humour, that I clearly wasn't a separatist, that I wore pretty 40s dresses with welly boots, which was the uniform of the day in Cornwall

00:02:10.400 - 00:02:35.540

if you were vegan. Welly boots. And I went down to Greenham with another friend of hers from Oxford called Annie, who gave me a lift which was very nice, and that was it really. So I was there a couple of months after the women arrived. So quite early? Yes, perhaps three months, the end of the winter I think, or the middle of the winter. Because she went in the winter?

00:02:36.060 - 00:02:58.520

I think so, yes, it was very cold, yes. But I remember I was, even though it's Cornish, I was used to living outside, so to me it wasn't new, and I don't necessarily like living in mud and rain, but I was used to it. And what was it like when you got there? It was quite quiet, it wasn't like the big times when there was hundreds of women turning up to snip gates,

00:02:58.680 - 00:03:22.720

and quite a lot of times quite boring. There was always a lot of picketing of the cars going by, the vehicles going by, and occasionally there would be snippeting of fences, but there was a lot of sitting around trying to get the fire going and making cups of tea. And I, being me, used to go off for walks in the countryside, you know, it was a new part of the world for me.

00:03:23.180 - 00:03:50.020

So, you know, footpaths down south to Berkeley and Kingsclere and all those places to watch wildlife, you know, which I was more interested in really. Lots of heavy discussion, even from that period. Men still living at the camp in a support role. Oh really, staying over? Yes, oh yes, up until Embrace the Base. And I was in a little group that, you know, with Caroline and

00:03:50.020 - 00:04:17.280

others, sort of eight or nine or ten of us, that comprised the support men. They were definitely in a support role. There were, you know, the few that were there were incredibly gentle, incredibly dedicated, incredibly hard-working. The trouble was that if they did a lot of wood chopping, that was my kismo. If they didn't do any chopping, they were lazy gits. So,

00:04:18.720 - 00:04:45.500

I didn't consider it very non-violent, and the little group that was my orbit, the women, also didn't consider it very non-violent. And that, in the end, was why we left. Because the decision to go entirely women-only after Embrace the Base was, for some women, an expedience, a political expedience, which is fine, but it wasn't admitted

00:04:45.500 - 00:05:12.200

to be such. It was, you know, it was all about women standing up for their own values and for nurturing and the rest of it, but no admittance of the fact that they were ill-treated men who weren't doing any harm. That's so interesting, because I thought, from other interviews, that the men, it was quite an early decision, after they arrived, only a few days after March

00:05:12.200 - 00:05:34.200

had arrived, that it would be women-only, and that there would be, and so to hear it was quite a lot later than that, and that men had lived there for a while. Is that...? Well, I told you I'd give you the unauthorised version. Men were only in supporting roles from almost, I believe, the outset, and when I was there, men were only in supporting roles. And on the day of, in December of Embrace

00:05:34.200 - 00:06:02.100

the Base, our little group, because we were very down-to-earth folk, I think, we dug all the latrines for Embrace the Base. It took us about 12 hours. The water table was very, very high at Greenham, and so as soon as you dug a ditch, well, a trench, huge trenches, they'd fill up with water again. It was the winter. And our little group that dug those latrines were mixed, and

00:06:02.100 - 00:06:24.080

at the end of Embrace the Base, three o'clock in the morning, the couple of men in that group were told to bugger off. Which still makes me cry, really. So we left. So you left with them in Yeah, we'd been planning to set, because at that time also there was an expansion of camps all over Britain, especially southern Britain, and we were planning to set up another camp in

00:06:24.080 - 00:06:47.080

south-east of England to, you know, to spread the idea of peace camps. You know, not everybody at Greenham was ill-treated, the few men that were still there supporting, but there was a little corps that was a bit, you know, a bit Stalinist in their attitude. And, you know, there was all sorts of women there who wanted it, you know, the great majority of women wanted it to be women

00:06:47.080 - 00:07:10.360

only, but for different reasons. For political expediency, for having a safe women's only space, because of the joy of being amongst only women. So, you know, I'm not coming down hard on Greenham as an idea. I just think... It sounds like it's not even about the idea of women only space for you. You can see the value of that. It's about the way those particular men who were

00:07:10.360 - 00:07:41.380

at that time were perhaps disposed of. Absolutely. But also, I'd been involved in lots of sort of short and long-term groups of direct activists and affinity groups that had been mixed and, you know, in very, very nurturing, loving communities of, you know, men and women together. So, to me, it wasn't necessary. Okay. So would you... Did you ever go back after you'd left?

00:07:41.780 - 00:08:01.640

Yeah, we went back for actions. We went up and set up another base, and indeed I visited another camp that I had friends who'd set up as well. Oh yeah, we went back for the actions in May. I can't remember when all the things were. And for some of the blockades, yeah. Oh yeah, we didn't cut ourselves off from anything like that. It sounds very, very

00:08:01.640 - 00:08:29.560

extreme, but no, it wasn't as bad as that. But I'd been involved in things quite early on, and we did a fast to raise money for the Windscale Inquiry when I was first at the art college down here in Cornwall. What's the Windscale Inquiry? The Windscale Inquiry was 1974. It was an inquiry into the expansion of what is now called Sellafield, but was Windscale

00:08:29.560 - 00:08:56.800

until, I don't know when, until the 80s, sometime in the 80s, I can't remember, for, can't think of the word, but never mind. So the nuclear power plants? Huge public inquiry, and at the end of that there was a big rally in Trafalgar Square in late 74 or early 75, I can't really remember, probably organised by friends of the other, can't remember,

00:08:57.540 - 00:09:21.660

and that it was announced that there was a campaign to stop a new nuclear power station being built in East Lothian, south of Edinburgh, and I got very, very involved in that over the next year or two or three, and in fact got chucked out of the art college as a result for spending all my time up in East Lothian. So yeah, so I was, that was my first big involvement

00:09:21.660 - 00:09:45.180

in things really, so, and huge occupations, you know, hundreds and hundreds, thousands of people coming to occupy the site and to do direct action, which again you were saying about earlier about people not knowing about early and non-violent direct actions, but affinity groups from all over Britain going to a place south of Edinburgh, a long, long way from Cornwall, a long, long way

00:09:45.180 - 00:10:09.980

from the south of England as well, to take direct action. And what sort of form did that take? Because I think a lot of people listen to these interviews, it's quite hard to sort of sum up what non-violent direct action is. Well, the big event at Tawness, we, I was involved in an affinity group mostly from Bristol, Bath area, and I was the little offshoot in Cornwall. Would you explain

00:10:09.980 - 00:10:37.680

affinity groups as well? Affinity groups, small groups, usually between eight and twelve people, something like that, that become, that come together, maybe through friendship or neighbourhood or maybe on purpose, to learn how to break the law really. You don't have to break the law to be an affinity group, but non-violent direct action against whatever. So you learn how to

00:10:40.340 - 00:11:04.260

physically cope with being arrested or being attacked, you learn physically how to deal with human beings emotionally and tactically, how you face off or unface off police, and all those things. Oh wow, that's really interesting. Which is, you know, millions and millions of what, lots and lots of affinity groups are now happening for Extinction

00:11:04.260 - 00:11:27.760

Rebellion. And many of those people think it's new, but of course it's not, there's nothing new under this sun. I wish there was a sun today. So we went up to Tawness and there was probably, I don't know, 20 or 25, I don't really remember, different affinity groups from all over Britain taking direct action at this site, which was being built. So the building wasn't up yet,

00:11:27.840 - 00:11:54.380

but they'd built the, they'd dug out the reactor core, which is like a quarter of a mile across, you know, there's a huge hole in the ground, like a, like Delibol Slate quarry. And the thing that our affinity group did was find a water supply, find hoses and try to fill the reactor core with water. We didn't really succeed. We put a decent sized puddle in there.

00:11:54.480 - 00:12:25.720

Other people were digging up the roads that had been built, you know, the mud roads. I remember on the day, some persons, you shall definitely remain anonymous, put some sugar in some works vehicles on site, big works vehicles, you know, sort of JCB type things and caterpillars and I think set fire to one or two vehicles. And there was a huge long discussion about whether

00:12:25.720 - 00:12:45.360

that was non-violent or not, because it was not a living thing. And so that took a lot of energy. But it might've hurt someone else in the process. And I bet views were quite split on that. Yeah. Oh God, I've got a photo of somewhere of a group sitting in a circle with hands in the air, gesticulating and a little ball of smoke in the background where the caterpillar is.

00:12:45.960 - 00:13:04.200

Yes, very, yes, in-depth discussion. So yeah. And where did you fall in that discussion, if you can remember? I never did anything like that, but I wasn't really fussed about machinery. So you, I mean, did you, what was your experience of

00:13:04.780 - 00:13:21.220

the police and law in that? You've done so many things that you must've been arrested at some point. Yeah, some few times. Yeah, it depends where. In Scotland, the police tended to arrest you and dump you in the countryside because it was, you know, it was near a town called Dunbar,

00:13:21.480 - 00:13:37.000

which is about, I suppose, the size of Penrhyn probably, no, Penrhyn Pre-University. But very rural otherwise. And so you'd have a sort of three or four or five mile walk back through the snow to sign again. And no paperwork for them sort of thing.

00:13:37.000 - 00:13:57.400

Yeah, of course. Yes. It was just a way of putting you off really. In large, we've always, I've always built good relationships with the police when I've been living somewhere and getting to know people. At Burfield, the peace camp we set up when we left Greenham, we built quite,

00:13:58.280 - 00:14:15.880

quite deep and profound relationships with the Modplods, the MIT policemen at the site. Um, how come? How did that? Because we were living there and because the ethos of being at Burfield was to actually bring to light the site, which was supposed to be a secret site,

00:14:16.400 - 00:14:35.300

but to put actually to build relationships and change people's minds through discussion. So that wasn't just the local community. It was the Modplods, many of whom were things like ambulance drivers who couldn't afford to be an ambulance driver anymore. So they'd become an MoD policeman because it was a bit more reliable in terms of pay and employment.

00:14:37.000 - 00:14:52.220

I've come across a lot of police and prison officers who, you know, why I might laugh at their naivety in my eyes, have said they do the job in order to help people. Really? Yeah. So the young ones.

00:14:55.240 - 00:15:14.080

We were very friendly at Burfield, very friendly. You know, when I was on the last Extinction Rebellion thing I did, we chatted to the police much against the stuff that's laid down by Extinction Rebellion. Don't talk to the police. You might give something away at your court for your court case.

00:15:14.500 - 00:15:36.460

But the police may be institutionally racist, but if every single police officer, whether they're racist or not, is beyond redemption, what does it say for the rest of society? Because there are only other members of society. So it's not non-violent to regard other individuals as...

00:15:36.460 - 00:15:50.480

Inherently harmful. Inherently. Yes, absolutely. Yes. By and large. I agree. So do you take the... it sounds like you really have embodied the principles of non-violent direct action as part of your personal political...

00:15:50.480 - 00:15:58.140

Well, non-violence. Non-violence. Is that different? Sorry. Well, direct action in my day-to-day life I don't take a lot of. No, fair enough. Of course.

00:15:58.540 - 00:16:10.260

But non-violence, yes, which is all about treating human beings and giving them a way. It's about giving them a way out as well. Yeah. To come back from perhaps something they're doing which you might disapprove of deeply.

00:16:11.280 - 00:16:29.000

That they on some level are hopefully uncomfortable with. And also, I mean, Burfield was founded on no means to ends, which was what we felt. Well, you don't... the expedience goes out the door. And it's almost impossible to live your life entirely without means to ends.

00:16:29.540 - 00:16:38.580

Right. I'm going to tread on this worm because I need to get to that side of the bridge. You know, whatever. But, you know, what I've been saying about Green and about how the men were treated,

00:16:38.700 - 00:16:52.040

in order to gain the expedience of a women's only camp, which did a huge amount for the peace movement in terms of publicity and changing people's lives. A huge amount for the men of that generation. Yeah, it was an expedience to treat the men the way they did.

00:16:53.340 - 00:17:10.200

So that's why at Burfield we had a lotus symbol, a Buddhist lotus symbol, even though we weren't all Buddhists, as our symbol of the camp. And that, you know, that was quite deep non-violence, I think. It's interesting.

00:17:10.880 - 00:17:22.860

So how many of you were living at Burfield? Burfield, yeah, only usually about between eight and twelve, I think. It was about a core group of eight or nine of us. That is quite intense, isn't it?

00:17:22.900 - 00:17:35.520

Yeah, it was quite intense. Every day we, every day, I think, in the end of the day, I think we sat down and discussed the day and what we'd achieved or not achieved. And every day we discussed one person, how they were feeling.

00:17:35.740 - 00:17:41.340

And so, you know, we were quite an intense group. There were other people who came and supported from, it was only about four miles from Reading. Right.

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The village of Burfield was half a mile away, a mile away, I don't know. So lots of people coming and going. Yeah. Reading University.

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But yeah, it was a core group. And how did it feel if you were the person that was being discussed? I didn't like it at all, but I'm sort of a bit, you know, sort of a bit, oh, no problem, me.

00:18:00.900 - 00:18:08.020

Oh, I don't need anything discussing about me. I'm all right. I'm all right, Jack. I didn't like it very much, but I often just think it was useful.

00:18:08.600 - 00:18:17.400

Did you hear things that were useful, do you think? If I'm honest, I can't really remember. That's fair enough. It's a long time ago.

00:18:17.780 - 00:18:27.620

Do you just remember not much liking and having the spotlight on you? No. How did you feel about commenting on other people? Or was the whole process slightly uncomfortable?

00:18:28.320 - 00:18:35.500

No, I don't think so. I think I probably preferred it to be commenting on me. Yeah, I think it's probably, yeah. It's probably a bit more like gossip when you're talking about other people.

00:18:38.420 - 00:18:57.720

So how long did you live there for? Only, I think, less than six months, about six months. Again, the Falklands War was setting off. Two of the core group were going to go on the peace walk from,

00:18:59.020 - 00:19:11.460

I can't remember where it started, it probably started in different places in Europe, to the Balkans, the Balkan Peace March, which was, I suppose, later to do. And so the group was going to be very reduced in size.

00:19:11.600 - 00:19:25.020

And we'd done the job we wanted to do, which was getting the people of Burfield who worked at the site, thinking about their work, making Burfield a public site, because it doesn't, I don't know if it does now,

00:19:25.160 - 00:19:35.480

I don't suppose it still does, it doesn't appear on OS maps. It literally doesn't. You might as well put a man of a duck there instead. It was removed in, I guess, I think the 80s, it was removed from the OS map.

00:19:35.480 - 00:19:42.360

No, it was removed earlier from the OS maps, and then it was removed from the registry, the land registry in the 80s, I think. Wow.

00:19:42.600 - 00:19:51.080

It literally doesn't exist. It's the final assembly point for all Britain's nuclear warheads. I did not know that. Yeah, so it's in a trio of lovely places,

00:19:52.900 - 00:20:02.200

Burfield, Aldermast and Greenham, basically. Wow. So they're trundling, and of course, nuclear convoys coming through the Berkshire Roads to get there and leave it.

00:20:02.680 - 00:20:13.280

Did you ever take part in cruise watch, which was kind of awesome? No, I never did. We watched the missile, we came across, although we tried very hard to find them,

00:20:13.380 - 00:20:19.600

but we came across a couple by accident of the convoys coming into Burfield. Oh, really? Late at night, yeah. What was that like?

00:20:20.940 - 00:20:38.720

Well, I suppose a bit surreal, very quiet, no noise, just the noise of the vehicles, lots and lots and lots of lights. I think about in a convoy, I think there was probably 15 or 20 vehicles, including the outriders and things, so lots and lots of security, yeah.

00:20:41.060 - 00:20:47.820

I wouldn't have wanted to rush out and sit in front of them, that's for sure. No, people did, didn't they? Cruise, yeah. Oh, yeah.

00:20:49.320 - 00:21:00.580

So what were the actions that you felt kind of best aligned with your... At Greenham? Either at Greenham or anything else that you've done, because it sounds like you've been involved in lots of things,

00:21:00.940 - 00:21:13.400

and what are the actions you did sort of feel that best reflected your... Well, I think Burfield was great in that it did this thing of, all of a sudden, in the National Papers, people knew about this assembly point, which was great.

00:21:13.560 - 00:21:26.240

Yeah, that's amazing. I think the most useful thing I ever did was definitely, with the same affinity group I was talking about from earlier on, again, brought to public attention the dumping of nuclear waste

00:21:26.240 - 00:21:34.400

at sea 300 miles off the Cornish coast. That's a big deal. Again, it hadn't really been known about. No.

00:21:34.520 - 00:21:55.220

A load of nuclear waste was every year taken in by train, a lot from Winscale and other parts of Houston and other parts of Britain, to non-unionised little docks on the Severn, Barkley, where the castle is, and loaded onto a ship and taken out to sea in just oil,

00:21:56.680 - 00:22:03.980

drums, and dumped in a deep trench. It's now, of course, none of it's there anymore. I was going to say, is it still there? Of course not.

00:22:05.920 - 00:22:18.360

It's one of the slow poisonings we've done to the earth. And to ourselves. Yes, and we did that. And what was great about that is we were a together group who

00:22:20.320 - 00:22:29.500

strategised. We planned a campaign. We started by talking to the local villagers, the dockers. We did a march through town and then over the village.

00:22:30.440 - 00:22:45.800

And then we did a little blockade of the docks. And the next year, we did a much bigger blockade of the train. So we had a beginning, a middle, and an end. The last action we did got a huge amount of publicity.

00:22:46.960 - 00:22:59.260

And then Greenpeace took it up. The National Union of Seamen took it up. And after the National Union of Seamen took it up, it only took about six months for waste dumping to be stopped.

00:22:59.420 - 00:23:03.940

So we actually... That's amazing. Yes, that actually had, you know... Profound effects.

00:23:05.800 - 00:23:16.580

That's one of the things that I'm really interested about Greenpeace, that it was, as activism goes, it was, you could argue, it was very successful in terms of its aim. If its broad aims were no more cruise missiles

00:23:16.580 - 00:23:27.600

and get the common land back, those were both achieved, you know. Arguably, by the goodwill or not, but they have happened. And that sounds like a similar thing.

00:23:27.720 - 00:23:44.740

It's like a quantifiable success. In a sense, a much smaller thing than cruise missiles, because, you know, if you have a union that doesn't want to handle something so profoundly against its other statements of intent

00:23:44.740 - 00:23:57.620

and doesn't like the idea of non-unionised seamen as well, they were a powerful lot then. But it shows all the links to human rights, peace, socialism, the power of...

00:23:58.900 - 00:24:12.900

The fact that you said they were targeting a non-unionised workplace to start to do something so illegal and detrimental. It's sort of all quite connected, isn't it? I would argue that probably Greenham didn't stop.

00:24:13.460 - 00:24:20.180

It wasn't really responsible for INF. Right, OK. I don't think it was at all. Do you not?

00:24:20.300 - 00:24:30.260

Nevertheless, it had an impact on... Do you not think it influenced the public dialogue or the international dialogue around... Maybe a modicum, maybe a modicum.

00:24:30.640 - 00:24:44.780

A huge amount for women's empowerment and for people's empowerment as well. But I think INF came at a time when you had these two geezers who came along who...

00:24:44.780 - 00:24:52.920

Bizarre... Or three geezers who came along who clicked bizarrely. You know, Thatcher, Gorbachev and Reagan. And it was all about saving money

00:24:54.000 - 00:25:07.500

and actually making the world a safer place. It was a sort of real politic. So yeah, I think Greenham contributed to this thing. So what do you think its positive impacts were then?

00:25:07.540 - 00:25:17.460

Because you did mention its effect on women and people. Well, you know, millions of women who went back and refused to be women cozy at home cooking dinner, basically,

00:25:17.700 - 00:25:24.740

or tens of thousands anyway. That changed lots of women's lives, huge amounts in the numbers of women decided to go to university,

00:25:26.000 - 00:25:36.440

to do other things they wouldn't have dreamt of doing. That obviously had knock-on effects on men as well, who decided it wasn't right to treat the woman as a little chattel.

00:25:37.240 - 00:25:45.100

So, but also, you know, in terms of, you know, direct action against the state, you know, what was possible and what wasn't. Incredibly empowering to do things that, you know,

00:25:45.640 - 00:25:58.040

stop 38 tonne sort of armoured trucks that make you realise that human beings are equal in terms of things like the police and the... And just, you know, for a lot of women

00:25:58.040 - 00:26:11.740

meeting different people that they'd never meet before. Yeah. Otherwise, yeah, so of course it's empowering. I noticed that you've got sort of XR stuff

00:26:11.740 - 00:26:22.300

up on the window and you're still obviously very involved in movements now. Do you think there's lessons from Greenham that relate to that or is XR doing similar things

00:26:22.300 - 00:26:27.580

to some of the stuff that came out of Greenham for people and for the environment? Well, there's obviously, you know, a level of direct action.

00:26:27.800 - 00:26:40.040

I think XR is wonderful. I think it's so all-encompassing that it's muddied its own waters. It doesn't really know where it's going, I don't think.

00:26:40.640 - 00:26:48.540

I haven't been that involved in it. I've been involved in the last few months and for the last year on and off because I've been in a situation of flux,

00:26:48.640 - 00:26:59.480

which has nothing to do with anything else. I've been very uninvolved in things, in fact. I think it struggles with doing anything which doesn't seem like direct action to it

00:26:59.480 - 00:27:14.580

because it considers it too unradical. That's very bad English. So it struggles to actually, local groups struggle to strategise what they want to do.

00:27:15.040 - 00:27:26.300

They decide they want to do something somewhere and they don't even really know why, let alone how or have a timeline or a timescale or a set of ideas about who they need to influence

00:27:26.300 - 00:27:42.100

and what they need to get in order to achieve it. So a lot of the spontaneous stuff happens anyway and really wonderfully, but I struggle with working with people

00:27:42.100 - 00:27:52.780

who don't really think it's important to do the strategy stuff, to have aims and objectives and strategy and tactics. I think that'll come in time.

00:27:53.320 - 00:28:01.160

I mean, not that people have had any time. No. Who do you feel is doing that then? Are there people involved in your life

00:28:01.160 - 00:28:07.000

that you kind of struggle with? No, not really. No. Not in terms of NVDA anyway,

00:28:07.080 - 00:28:10.700

not on direct action. No. Really? So where's that gone, do you think?

00:28:11.440 - 00:28:20.420

Oh, well, I think they're doing the direct action. So they're the show where it is. The other things that are happening are not necessarily practical action things.

00:28:21.420 - 00:28:30.520

There's huge amounts of research going on. There's huge amounts of alternative art and theatre. There's Dark Mountain and all things like that going on, which are not about direct action.

00:28:31.640 - 00:28:41.060

So it's almost like the two worlds of where perhaps Burfield and Greenham places, there might be a strategy and NVDA together, the practical and the aims and objectives.

00:28:41.880 - 00:28:48.580

And perhaps in your impression, the way you're seeing at the moment, it's almost like they've separated out into two areas. No, not really.

00:28:48.780 - 00:28:55.820

I don't really think so. No, I just think there's a lot going on. Yeah. Climate change is it.

00:28:55.960 - 00:29:06.460

Climate change and species extinction is everything. It's economy and history and geography and... And patriarchy. Culture and it's everything.

00:29:06.800 - 00:29:16.800

And even, you know, horrible party politics. So it's obviously going to take place in lots of different, or we hope in lots of different places and in lots of ways.

00:29:17.940 - 00:29:25.820

So what do you, if you just thinking more generally about, perhaps not just Greenham, but the kind of action you've been involved in in the widest sort of scale.

00:29:26.380 - 00:29:34.900

If people are going to make that into art or fictionalise it in some way, how would you want that to be portrayed? What are the important premises?

00:29:39.180 - 00:29:48.420

For me, all the best things were funny. Oh, really? Well, the fact that Greenham, our little group had a laugh and Sunside Alliance also, we had a really good laugh.

00:29:48.900 - 00:29:58.000

Luxillium had a really good laugh. I'm only interested in, you know, in things that aren't too serious. Perhaps it could be a sitcom.

00:29:58.720 - 00:30:10.020

It would make a hilarious sitcom, although it would probably be bad. There was a very serious part of Greenham where there was a lack of humour,

00:30:10.540 - 00:30:18.460

which I found very difficult. Was that particularly Greenham or was that activism in general? Because the issues can be so...

00:30:18.460 - 00:30:33.960

It was Greenham. You couldn't make a joke about feminism or women. Make a joke about anything else, but not women. I'm saying Greenham as if it's one thing,

00:30:34.020 - 00:30:39.020

but actually it's lots of different gates, isn't it? Yes, yes. So which gate were you... Well, when I was there, it was only really...

00:30:39.580 - 00:30:43.800

It was only one, wasn't it? It was the main gate, which was... Yellow. Yellow, yes.

00:30:45.400 - 00:30:55.700

I don't think it was called Yellow then, though. No, I think it was still main from the beginning. Fran, my mate Fran, sat at the green gate. But I think that was already called Green.

00:30:56.280 - 00:31:01.600

It was quite near to Yellowgate. It was very near. I can't... I think it was sort of west.

00:31:01.660 - 00:31:08.800

I can't really remember the layout. I can remember who the main gate was, but yeah. So the colours of the gates, I think only came with Embrace the Base.

00:31:09.040 - 00:31:12.520

Oh, really? I think. I can't really remember. Yeah, it wasn't anybody else.

00:31:13.300 - 00:31:23.720

I think on the day of Embrace the Base, the men were told to go and do things at the purple gate. Oh, really? Go to the purple gate and make us sandwiches or something like that.

00:31:23.860 - 00:31:31.260

But I can't remember because I might be wrong on the number, the colour of the gate. I have definitely heard about the sandwich making, though. Yes. About my dad.

00:31:31.380 - 00:31:38.180

I mean, you know my mum and dad. And my dad was definitely a sandwich maker. He was making sandwiches and part of the creche.