00:00:00.000 - 00:00:20.460

Well, I was at my, my children's father and the kids and I, we were all at big CND rally in 1981. And we'd gone down to London in Hyde Park, it was, I mean, it was a huge rally and Tony Ben and Michael Foote and Fenner Brockway and all sorts of other people were speaking.

00:00:21.840 - 00:00:44.460

And then they introduced these women who were walking from Wales to Greenham Common, to Newbury, near Newbury, and they stood up in the platform and said what they were going to do, that they were going to protest against the cruise missiles coming to Greenham Common, the RAF base.

00:00:44.740 - 00:00:59.920

And I remember thinking, oh, that sounds, that sounds interesting, I'm going to keep an eye on that. God, little did I know that it would become what it became. Anyway, we went home and I was in a women's group in Richmond where I live.

00:01:00.460 - 00:01:20.940

And out of that came our little peace group, women's peace group, because we were all getting a bit fed up with the lefty blokes patting us on the head and saying things like, we mentioned women's issues where we get like, let's get the important stuff out the way, you know, like anti-nuclear and then, and unions and all the other stuff.

00:01:21.160 - 00:01:43.280

And so we were like, anyway, we met up and we used to do actions in Richmond itself about the cruise missiles because we were very, and then I remembered, and then it started to become known that these women were at Greenham Common. So the first time I went down, I think it was 1982, end of 81, beginning of 82, something

00:01:43.280 - 00:01:54.440

like that. I used to only go down for actions. I had three little children and my home set up did not, would not have allowed me to take, I would have loved to have gone there and lived.

00:01:54.620 - 00:02:12.460

I mean, I would have loved it, but it just was absolutely impossible. We weren't living anywhere near family. So it just, but anyway, I went down as often as possible to all the big actions and the walking from Greenham to Aldermaston and the, and the chain and the brace, the base and

00:02:12.460 - 00:02:31.340

the mirrors, all of that stuff. And we used to just get, we used to just arrange it in the peace group and we'd just get a van. I mean, it was the same time as the flying pickets legislation, anti-flying pickets legislation

00:02:31.340 - 00:02:44.280

came out with the Thatcher government and we got stopped a couple of times because you weren't supposed to, they applied that to all sorts of things. You weren't allowed to travel. So what was the flying pickets legislation?

00:02:45.300 - 00:03:08.100

It was the minor strike and different, different strikes that the unions were organised and it was the Thatcher government and she was anti-unions very much so. So they introduced this, that you couldn't pick the pickets because you used to be able to, if you had a protest or you were picketing something, people would come from other parts

00:03:08.100 - 00:03:16.940

of the country and join your picket. Right. So she brought in anti-fly, they were called flying pickets, and she brought in legislation against that.

00:03:17.000 - 00:03:33.480

You were not allowed to travel to go and picket anywhere else. We got stopped a couple of times. So we had a lot of camping gear and, you know, we just pretended we were going camping and Cornwall, I think Cornwall was one of the places we said we were going.

00:03:34.240 - 00:03:52.460

I see them all going, yeah, a bunch of women all sort of looking like. So anyway, but we were allowed to go. So I used to, we got to, when we started, we used to camp at Orange Gate because that was like the international gate and you had the chance of meeting all sorts of women

00:03:52.460 - 00:04:08.660

from all over the place there and I really liked that. A couple of times we went down, we would, we'd go to Main Gate and see if anybody needed anything and get some water and somebody would say they need water over there. So we'd go and get water or whatever.

00:04:08.820 - 00:04:15.660

I mean, I know that a lot of women did this. I'm not unusual in doing this. This is just my story about what I did. Yeah.

00:04:16.160 - 00:04:35.680

Well, so you were, so you mentioned, there was loads in that, thank you. So there was your family, so you had three little children and you were going there. So were you kind of going there on the weekends or how? I only went down for actions, when the kids' dad was around and could look after them.

00:04:37.300 - 00:04:46.520

Otherwise I couldn't have done it. My mum was up in Glasgow. I mean, I live in North Yorkshire and I had children, I had twins and another boy who wasn't much older.

00:04:46.660 - 00:05:03.120

So there was actually all about the same age, which, you know, as a parent, I could cope with that just about, but to ask somebody else to say, hello, here's three children nearly the same age, which was, they're all toddlers, but it's all right. So, no, they weren't toddlers at that time.

00:05:03.340 - 00:05:16.740

I mean, in 1981, when I first saw the Greenham women, do you know, I think back to that, see, my daughter's written a poem about that. Yeah. She remembers her dad holding it up so that she could see the crowd.

00:05:18.340 - 00:05:36.420

And she was actually frightened because people were talking about bombing and all sorts of things. But when I think back to that day and those women standing there talking about what they were doing, I didn't realise, I get quite emotional about this, I didn't realise that

00:05:36.420 - 00:06:02.820

it was going to become such a major feature in my life, not only from my own peace group activities here and all over the country, we used to go all over to different rallies and things, and that it would mean so much to me. It became such an enormous part of my development into radical feminism and I eventually did,

00:06:02.940 - 00:06:27.240

I was doing my OU degree in the 80s and I did a wonderful module that isn't in existence now called the Changing Experience of Women. And when I came back from that summer school in 1988, I volunteered to work, I volunteered to be a volunteer at Cleveland Rape Crisis, as it was called then, in Middlesbrough.

00:06:28.240 - 00:06:50.900

It's not in existence now, it was one of the, I think it was about the second or third rape crisis centre to open and at one point it was the biggest. So, and all my stuff from Greenham, the women I met and the workshops I went to and the non-violent direct action workshops and all the experiences of all the different women

00:06:50.900 - 00:07:15.080

I met there, and they could take Greenham home, we always took Greenham home, always, we just, it was just such a, I mean I'm quite sure many, many, many women say this, this this passion, this feeling of somehow or other taking that spirit, taking that feeling and all that energy and all that wonderful women

00:07:15.080 - 00:07:38.440

stuff, there's nothing better than being with a load of women, I mean it's just the best in the world, just taking that all back to your hometown. And we started off, we started up a peace camp at Vilingdales, which where the golf balls were linked in near Whitby on the North York moors, there was a listening place

00:07:38.440 - 00:08:04.220

connected to GCHQ, and through the couple of summers, three or four summers, we set up a pop-up peace camp there and we'd go up and live at the side of the road, but the kids were a bit older then so they used to come with me and we just camped at the side of the road opposite one of the gates into Vilingdales and the police were all there

00:08:04.220 - 00:08:21.680

and trying to take our names and addresses and we're like that, what they think, no. Did you ever, did you give them like fake names? No, we just said, well we used to joke about it and say do you want what Minnie Mouse or something, that was always a favourite amongst anybody, we refused to give addresses, if

00:08:21.680 - 00:08:47.020

they wanted our address, if you want to arrest me then you know I'm not giving you my address, but what they did was they took the numbers of the cars and a few years later we got stopped on holiday in Port Patrick up in the southwest of Scotland and they knew that we lived in Richmond and they knew and they stopped my kid's dad on his way hiking back

00:08:47.020 - 00:09:14.240

down to Richmond and they asked him what he was doing standing at the Stranraer ferry port and he said well I've hitched up from my home to see my my wife and children, I mean I wasn't his wife but he's just a wife and children at um and they said yeah we know you're in Port Patrick, you drive a grey, silver grey Sierra and David had said how

00:09:14.240 - 00:09:35.180

do you know that? How do you know that? Yeah. And somebody else, I live near Catrick which is the biggest army camp, you know a huge army camp and somebody had said to me, they'd gone up for an interview and they'd been shown a list of names and asked if they knew anybody on it and Paul said to me, I'm telling you, he said

00:09:35.180 - 00:09:58.280

Barbara your name was on it, I went what? My name was on it? I was having a go sometimes. Wow. And we used to get letters opened, we used to call them the yellow stickered letters, you'd get letters that had been opened in error stickers on them and and I was convinced my phone was being tapped and anyway of course then when all the

00:09:59.440 - 00:10:27.020

um files come out on the Thatcher governments they had been listening to peace groups and unions and all the rest of it and quite recently, in fact very recently, within the last year my son who works, I won't say where he works but he'd applied to, he was asked to take on a big contract and he had to do a security, quite a big security check and he said to me, he said

00:10:27.020 - 00:10:54.900

I shouldn't really be telling you this mum but your name came up. My name? What do you mean mine? With an old address. So in what context like was he asked about you? Yeah it was the sort of thing his security, he had to give his parents name and address, is to give his parents names and they obviously did a check and I'm obviously still on a list, you know I'm 75, how dangerous am I?

00:10:57.120 - 00:11:24.080

That's amazing. I was absolutely, I did contact a couple of friends of mine who've been involved in you know where your name comes up and you discover that you're being monitored and watched and everything just see what I could do and there is actually a website I could have gone on to but quite honestly then the pandemic thing hit and I thought I haven't got the energy

00:11:24.080 - 00:11:51.160

at the moment but I was really quite shocked about that, I mean I was very shocked about that but then once again I won't be the only woman that's, when if you were involved in the peace movement in the 80s when Thatcher and Heseltine were and Reagan were rampant and we became like a a floating aircraft carrier for America, you know it's not surprising. Yeah.

00:11:51.160 - 00:12:19.100

It was a shock, it was like god that's just bizarre so I can't remember why I started to say this. No it's really interesting and that has, yeah that has come up in a few interviews actually women kind of being reminded of that past you know kind of coming back up for the next generation even. I know what it was, I was telling you about Filingdales. Right yes. And that was one

00:12:19.100 - 00:12:41.520

of the big ones, that would be one of the reasons not just Greenham because I took the car to Greenham a couple of times as well but the Filingdales thing because it was linked to GCHQ it's quite a famous thing, the golf balls on the North York Moor, they're not there so much now they've gone more underground but they would have been very very very wary about anybody

00:12:42.480 - 00:13:13.200

peace camping linked to anti-nuclear things you know and we'd have signs up saying bring Greenham home and so they would um they'd be like that oh no these are terrorists. I know so yeah scared of us but it was, I loved our Filingdales camp it was very important and but we were camped right literally at the side of the road on a piece of grass

00:13:14.540 - 00:13:36.920

between the road opposite the gate one of the gates to Filingdales. We used to get out and sort of demonstrate when the shift bus, the shifts changed and the buses were going in and out and people all looking out the window. I've got some great photographs of us dancing in the road. So that was really important and we used to go all over the country we had a

00:13:38.040 - 00:13:59.800

we had a stall that we used to set up in the marketplace in Richmond and it was called the duck and cover company based on the old propaganda films that they used to put out for children just duck and cover you know and you see all the children diving under their desks at school oh black and white thing and we were called the duck and cover company we used to sell

00:13:59.800 - 00:14:23.960

empty tins of beans all stacked up for five and each and and it was a spoof thing and you could either buy toilet paper in a row or several sheets or one at a time and we used to have different prices for that it was batteries we we got the government protect and survive list and we just put things on the stall that came from that. Oh wow. You'd get people wandering

00:14:23.960 - 00:15:01.000

across going five pounds for a tin of beans. It's a clear thing as if you read the sign it says only only what is it so many seconds left everything must go that was our thing you know everything must go. So all that was about carrying on this you know bringing it all back and doing your own thing in your own area because that was really important and just the whole

00:15:01.000 - 00:15:32.620

being at Greenham was just one of the most phenomenal experiences ever in my life you know I'm just so glad I went. So with Greenham which action were you there for first? Embrace the base, holding up the walk the 14 mile walk. Was that the the first walk because you heard the the women from Wales and they were they with like the first kind of origin story

00:15:32.620 - 00:15:58.260

weren't they of Greenham that kind of went there first but the 14 mile walk is that a different thing? Yes oh yes I mean the the women standing at the CND rally in 1981 was them on the way they'd gone to Greenham and they'd come to the CND rally to tell people what they were doing that was at the very very very beginning and that that's what I'm saying I remember watching them

00:15:58.260 - 00:16:23.240

thinking god I need to keep an eye on that and I'll I'll tell the I'll tell the women when I get home we'll talk about I'll tell them that I've seen these women and we'll just keep an eye on what happens there that's what I mean that little thought about I'll just keep an eye on what happens and then when you look at what it became it was like it always reminded me of the

00:16:23.240 - 00:16:49.760

first time I saw the film Zulu I mean I hate the film but first time I saw the film Zulu in the cinema and saw Michael Caine and I thought he was quite good in the part and I watched the credits at the end to see who it was so that I could keep an eye on and see what happened afterwards came like like mega star not that I like in particular at all it was the same I mean I must

00:16:49.760 - 00:17:17.120

keep an eye on this and see what happens and then I didn't realize I think back to that moment and I think god that became such a major part even though I didn't live there the whole Greenham thing just became such a thing for me I've got all my I've got all still got all my flyers and meetings and workshop times and

00:17:19.760 - 00:17:44.660

and the songs I went to a reunion a couple of years ago in Teesside University not Teesside University Northumbria University so I stood up and it's actually on there it's on a it's on a YouTube video god I've never been in a YouTube video in my life um seeing Sarah's song singing Sarah's song you know they can't forbid nearly everything

00:17:44.660 - 00:18:12.560

they cannot forbid me to think and it's you can't forbid nearly everything you cannot forbid me to think you can't forbid the flowers to grow and you can't stop my mouth when I sing we used to do all the singing you know there are all sorts of the weave in the web we are the weavers we are the web all of those I've got I've got a Greenham song book and oh wonderful I look

00:18:12.560 - 00:18:37.400

yeah that's fantastic that you've been able to keep that as well yes and a friend of mine a couple of birthdays ago sent me a book that had been written about Orange Gate ah so that's why you were when when you were at Greenham you were orange we went chose that one because we knew that there was women from all over the place it was a each gate had its own um personality if you

00:18:37.400 - 00:19:05.160

like or reason or meaning you know there was and at the end the Orange Gate was the international one so we knew that we would meet lots of different women there there was one time we was down um I can't remember what the action was I know it was my birthday in December it was a December one it was freezing cold and um there was a moment we were at the fence

00:19:06.620 - 00:19:30.420

the holding up the mirrors to the soldiers and on the other side was always interesting we used to say to them who are you who are you defending you know we'd say who are you defending anyway we were pulling the fence and pulling the fence and pulling the fence and there was just for just a moment I thought god we we've got enough strength here to actually pull the fence

00:19:30.420 - 00:19:52.780

down it was big huge concrete things with the fence around it anyway uh in front of me a woman there was police all backed up against the fence like that there was a woman in front of me and a policeman that was standing in front of her got his elbow and just went like that to her and knocked her back and she was lying on the ground and we sort of looked

00:19:52.780 - 00:20:17.700

you know somebody came and took her away and found out later he'd broken her jaw wow and there was another bit in that where a policeman's helmet had been knocked off and and his head had got bashed and they called an ambulance and this is the first time I realized the vindictiveness of the some of the mainstream press an ambulance was called for this police

00:20:17.700 - 00:20:42.740

officer and when the ambulance came we all cleared a path for the ambulance to get through and he got taken away and that was the day that the horses were brought in as well and to not frighten the horses we all sat we used to sit if they were you sit down in the ground so that and they would pick their way between you know pick their way between you and we'd all just

00:20:42.740 - 00:21:06.440

sit quite quietly and I read a newspaper article about that afterwards how a policeman had got injured and we wouldn't allow the ambulance through and that we actually were poking things in the horses and frightening them and that I think that was about the first time really I always knew that some of the press were crap I knew that I know that but

00:21:07.060 - 00:21:33.380

it was the first time it really sank home just how they could completely completely lie about something I mean just completely lie about it but the media were just absolutely dreadful it's really it must be a really horrible thing to you know be part of such a be part of such a thing which you're passionate about and know that you've behaved in a certain way that you

00:21:33.380 - 00:21:56.340

feel is right and then to to see that in black and white you know people telling lies about you and of course that stuck because it was things like the mail and the sun and the express and all the really crap papers because um it's funny you know I mean that nobody latched on to the sun until they did the Hillsborough thing I always thought that was really interesting because

00:21:56.340 - 00:22:17.760

they were like about the women but don't you know what they did with Hillsborough was shocking but then what they did with the Greenham women was shocking as well the way it was all I mean I didn't go through anything like the women who lived there went through I'm not for one second comparing myself they were wonderful wonderful women and they were like

00:22:18.700 - 00:22:37.900

heroes do you know what I mean they were just they were up there they were just the one the women who lived there and put up with all that stuff um their tents I mean all of it well you know all about it so that was shocking and every time we went down we would hear more stories about what had been going on with the council and

00:22:38.740 - 00:22:58.200

done to them and we'd go and talk to women that were there and and of course we always followed it the arrests and the court cases you know all that we followed all that so I never experienced anything like that other than you know being stopped by the police and not allowed into Little Chef which is like

00:22:58.200 - 00:23:21.160

nothing but were you were you ever arrested or nearly arrested no no that's what I'm saying that I never that never happened to me because I was only there for the big actions or a couple of times just went down like for a couple of us went down just for a weekend just to well just to be there really um

00:23:22.900 - 00:23:44.800

and presumably bring things and be very helpful be impossible in other ways the group that took stuff down blankets things like that you're very necessary part of Greenham life I didn't do very much of that don't get me wrong I'm not saying that I was there every weekend making sure everybody was all right and bringing hot chocolate I mean I

00:23:44.800 - 00:24:15.560

I wasn't I wasn't I had three little children and quite a disruptive home life at the time and it was very difficult for me um but I did I did what I could to Greenham but what my main thing was to bring it back to my local area and try and bring some of that energy and belief and passion and anti-nuclear thing and and I was part of the cruise watch so we were all on telephone trees and

00:24:16.440 - 00:24:48.680

we'd get word that me and a friend we'd get word I'd meet up with a couple of them at Scotch Corner which is on the A1 big big roundabout on the A1 and just watch the wagons going past with the missiles you know or up to Scotland there was a lot of toing and froing with Scotland yeah just all of that really I mean I wasn't I was only I was

00:24:48.680 - 00:25:06.600

what you might call a fan and a hanger-on rather than at Greenham itself I went down for the actions and there was thousands of I mean they were big and they were wonderful and just love whatever but my main thing was to bring all that trying we used to try and just bring

00:25:06.600 - 00:25:31.720

that home and set up our own one at Vilingdale's which was nothing like the Greenham one but because our situation my situation was different we used to just do it it was quite dangerous as well camping at the side of the road there was no real space to park there was no real space to camp it was quite this um things used to get flung out of cars that passed us some cars used to pass and

00:25:31.720 - 00:25:57.300

honk very loudly but other ones that would throw cans and yeah thatters and yeah so yeah because I was going to say that it must have felt quite vulnerable and yeah as it did lying at night I would think oh my god it would just take something to come off the road and plough through us and I used to get quite anxious about that and not sleep very well and I used to take my children up there

00:25:57.300 - 00:26:22.360

as well I've got some great photographs we used to just sit in the sunshine and one time we organized um a garden party and we had tables some we'd got some of the van to bring up trestle tables and we'd arranged it all with the tablecloths and everything and we'd sent out invitations to various people in Whitby and Scarborough and things like that see if they wanted to come

00:26:22.360 - 00:26:49.500

to our garden party I mean they didn't the mayor of Whitby was never was never going to come to garden we sent them out and we all dressed up and had cakes and uh things like that just I mean it was very it wasn't like I want I'm not saying it was like Greenham because it wasn't like Greenham but it was our way of making ourselves visible

00:26:49.500 - 00:27:14.960

because of what we gained from Greenham do you understand I mean yeah I'm not comparing it in any way and I'm not they were the one the women the women who lived at Greenham were there they were the heroes they were there but as you say I mean carry Greenham home you know that is like the endearing enduring kind of message of

00:27:14.960 - 00:27:45.700

of Greenham isn't it and absolutely and that was that was a big thing that was what we did we did that to the very best of our ability it was a phenomenal thing to have happened it just absolutely blew these things apart and it did alter the whole thing there's no doubt about yeah they couldn't the secret don't tell anybody we're bringing cruise missiles to Greenham

00:27:45.700 - 00:28:11.120

that went right out the window that got blown apart because it was there on the news and it just made such a mockery of all their secret we're going to do this women dancing and you know I I would have loved to have been part of you know being there when they went through the fence and danced on this that wonderful iconic photograph of them dancing on one of the silos I mean that's

00:28:11.120 - 00:28:36.420

just um you know and I met Helen John I mean when I think of some of the women that were there and to meet them in workshops and we used to go to there was we did stuff before we went on learning to do non-violent direct direct action and then there was other things there that you know to if you some of the big ones you know some would be an observer and someone would stand

00:28:36.420 - 00:29:04.980

back and some all that stuff right and um it's funny you know because I'm friends with a bloke in Richmond who used to have a little sort of a little hippie shop in um Richmond Richmond's not like that at all my MP's Rishi Sunak so that'll give you some indication okay before that it was William Hague wow big name before that it was Leon Britain so that'll just give you a flavour

00:29:04.980 - 00:29:28.040

of what Richmond's like so for Mark to open up this little shop in Richmond it was really success he's closed that now and he does foot health I remember one time when he did started doing his foot and I was standing in the shop chatting to him and he's I can't even remember how it came up and I said oh yeah I used to go to Greenham and he said oh a friend of mine he said a really

00:29:28.040 - 00:29:51.800

good friend I said I'm not in touch with her now he said we lost contact I don't know how we lost contact but I knew her for years and we were really good friends a woman called Helen Johns and I went oh my god Mark you knew her and he went yeah because she was like enormous and he said I've lost contact with her he said I knew she went on to do things and a couple of

00:29:51.800 - 00:30:14.860

times I saw something in the newspaper about and he said but I'd lost contact with her so when she died a couple of years ago I sent him because he wouldn't have known I sent him the stuff and said look this is her obituary and that was sort of isn't it funny it's like one of these little links again yeah and also just goes to show you that these were these were just women with real you

00:30:14.860 - 00:30:34.280

know connections to the real world you know I think it's so it's so interesting how you know I have a tendency to want to almost like deify you know these incredible women who started this wonderful amazing thing absolutely I was very fangirly if I went down there I was and we were at work so

00:30:34.280 - 00:30:58.020

there I was like a fangirl you know like oh I want and there was always a thought in my I want I've always been like this if I meet somebody who I think really knows a lot and and when I went I met was when I first started meeting radical feminists in tutor groups and they'd written books and and I remember sitting there going I want to be like

00:30:58.020 - 00:31:24.120

that I want to know that but all that stuff I want to I want all that knowledge I want to absorb it all and I was a bit like that when I went to Greenham some of the women that some of the women that you'd see them sitting around the fires and and you just think oh I want these just wonderful and it reported in the newspaper about how dirty they were and how messy everything was

00:31:24.120 - 00:31:54.280

and um how sort of disgusting and I'm thinking they're camping in a they're camping outside an RAF an American air base and they've been there for years and you're talking about they look dirty and they look scruffy and they look and they're living in they're living in polythene bags stretched over sticks I mean they would do that yeah that's because you kept wrecking all

00:31:54.280 - 00:32:28.040

the tents yeah and just the way and and yet they were the real they were they were important they were such important women such important women you mentioned um every gate had its own kind of personality so what what would you say is the personality of Orange Gate? Well that was the international gate so there was women came if you you would meet uh there was just that was

00:32:28.040 - 00:33:03.740

where you went if you wanted to meet women that came from all over the country every I can't even describe it and other countries as well yes yeah yeah and such a mixture of women and such a you know black women brown women other Asian women it just everybody it was just it was I like that I like that feeling of

00:33:05.400 - 00:33:32.940

mixture I love the mixture feeling of us all and you know it's yeah of course they the press used to hate that as well they were that you know how much they love black women and how much and the things that used to get printed about it um oh I don't know I can't sometimes I haven't got words to describe what it was all like it was

00:33:32.940 - 00:33:54.940

because it was so much some of the winter where it was a bit cold sometimes I mean that was a one time the time I went down I can't remember what that was that might have been the embrace the base or hold the mirrors I can't remember but I we hadn't taken because it was so cold and it would be freezing cold and it was

00:33:55.740 - 00:34:18.640

we didn't I didn't take we didn't take a tent my friend and I we didn't take a tent we just went down we ended up sleeping just taking quilts down and things and sleeping in the car sleeping bags and not a lot it was freezing it was absolutely freezing and then getting up in them in the freezing cold and going off to find somewhere to have a your morning wee was just

00:34:18.640 - 00:34:47.600

like flip it yeah but as I say I was only there I could go home to my warm bed and my fire and put the kettle on and I could do that I wasn't I would have loved to have stayed I mean I would have I like camping I would have been quite happy to go through all that all of it I wanted to be part of that but I just couldn't was a that's my sadness that'll stay with me

00:34:47.600 - 00:35:13.740

forever I just had to do my best with what I could do yeah well that's all anyone could do isn't it you know the fact that you were there is is quite huge to someone like me anyway that's huge so it was wonderful and it taught me one of the things that taught me a really deep deep thing it taught me was the power of women and what it feels like to be with only women there's something

00:35:13.740 - 00:35:43.160

about and I've maintained that that's another thing that I've done with Greenham I really only knock about with women I only um I'd I'd have a few I've got sons so you know I've got to be very careful what I say although they know you know I've told them many times but it's women that I that's who I am with is women and I'm involved in all sorts of different things

00:35:43.160 - 00:36:09.960

I went on to work at Rape Crisis and I used to do police training and Samaritans training and social services training about rape and sexual abuse and so I'm still involved in a lot of different things yeah all women's issues I've always stuck that that's what the main things Greenham taught me was women's lives and I'd already been involved in a bit of it because

00:36:09.960 - 00:36:39.100

I was in a women's group anyway so it's not wasn't new to me it just what it just built it it built it and built it and built it and built it till that became my life when it crisis and be involved in training and um and I'm you know I'm 70 I was 75 last month and I think to myself god I'm still doing this you know 50 years nearly 50 years of

00:36:40.020 - 00:37:03.360

campaigning about something or other you know but it's tiring because sometimes with certain with women's lives I get a bit despairing sometimes because I've changed you scratch the surface and very little has actually changed and I get fed up sometimes I think oh god I feel as if I've been fighting some of this stuff forever yeah but I know that um

00:37:04.000 - 00:37:29.020

and I've always I've always said that that's what one of the big things Greenham did to me was um it politicised it seriously seriously politicised and made me into you know became sort of evangelical a bit in the 80s you know I was banging on about it every time anybody stopped to say hello how are you

00:37:37.400 - 00:37:56.340

it's hard not to isn't it when you've been in that environment and you've been having those conversations and those ideas and you're all stimulated in that way and you see it everywhere and you want to you know spread the spread message absolutely that's exactly right so what have you been doing this weekend well actually I went down to Greenham Column

00:37:56.340 - 00:38:19.140

did you what was it like I don't know where to start what do you mean like I can't even begin to tell you but like that and going I'm betting that you could see them glazing over thinking I wish I hadn't asked her what is one thing I'm very interested in actually the kind of if with people who were you know coming and going to a certain extent like the kind of conversations

00:38:19.640 - 00:38:44.400

yeah how people from the outside would respond what they would think of Greenham um I used to I've always really liked debates and discussions and arguments and so I'm quite happy to you know stand in Richmond marketplace and have somebody say to me so what did you do at the weekend and bang on about it and and if this and we live as I say we're a

00:38:44.400 - 00:39:08.600

garrison town so there's an awful lot of the help for heroes and all this stuff going on about soldiers and an RAF Catrix nearby and everything so some people would get very very very angry the thought that I had been to Greenham I mean like really angry you're one of those women and I would always say no I'm not one of those women I'm one of the women that goes down and supports

00:39:08.600 - 00:39:36.640

those women and you can see them doing I don't know what she means and and saying about well what's it like down there I said it's just I'll try and explain it and and I would talk about American involvement in our politics and how dare they how dare they have so many bases all over this country and and you could and I would I stand there in the marketplace banging on about all

00:39:36.640 - 00:39:59.180

this stuff and you could see this person thinking I need to get away now I'm going to the co-op I just need to find a way of getting away from this mad woman whereas other people other women were really interested yeah and wanted to know about um and it would end up as a discussion about things that's the bit that's the difference

00:39:59.180 - 00:40:19.920

isn't it if you're talking to somebody that agreed with you or wants to learn about something it's not what they call an echo chamber it's a way of actually discussing something without having to go back to the beginning it's really tiring having to go back to the beginning all the time yeah and sometimes I won't do it with people because I think I don't even know where to start

00:40:19.920 - 00:40:47.200

you're so far away from any starting point that I could think I just can't be bothered because we're going to end up arguing about some of the basics rather than you know you know it's it gets tiring that is always quite exhausting isn't it having to having to do it again and again and again and again and it's not about not enjoying debate it's just about some people

00:40:47.200 - 00:41:14.260

you know for a fact before you even start you're not actually going to change any shred of anything you know I still talk about I say oh yes I went to Greenham and they go did you what was it like it's been oh well I'm sorry for asking as well huge no but it's like you at least you know about this you know it's like when somebody says to you

00:41:14.980 - 00:41:34.960

in the middle of the you know what was it like you think I don't you I'm not I'm not going to pursue this conversation I'm just here to get some potatoes I don't care and you're not going to you're not going to be interested anyway so yeah difficult living in a little tackle in a place like this sometimes it's difficult

00:41:36.440 - 00:42:00.680

and I suppose everyone has their own relationship with the military their own kind of personal connections and that must be difficult and there's a lot of it there's a lot of it I come up against it and I'm in a little couple of forums on Facebook with it and every now and again it'll it'll explode a bit and and then of course the Labour Party I was in the Labour Party but I

00:42:00.680 - 00:42:32.780

resigned and they're just oh I don't know I get I get really fed up with lefty blokes so that's really probably my one of my main gripes is lefty blokes right oh yeah you mentioned that actually right at the beginning in our local peace group right and that's what made us do a women's thing because we got so fed up going to peace group meetings and we'd say something about women

00:42:33.480 - 00:42:57.000

and you could just see these men going and remember this is the beginning this is the late 70s early 80s you know we um and they would say things like let's get the important stuff done it's all it's all connected as well because that was one wonderful thing about Greenham wasn't it and they were connected by

00:42:57.000 - 00:43:22.480

and they were all connected by and it was and I loved the fact that I mean people used to hang would hang things on the fence as well and it was big photographs of the children and I mean that's what I did it for my I you know I did it for me and for the fact that I had three children and I did not want to live in a I mean I'm a pacifist as well as being an anti-nuclear person

00:43:23.560 - 00:43:47.460

I didn't want my children I used to think you know these these men and we started because some people would ask me what why it was a women's issue and what I said because some of us are really really really pissed off with the fact that men are actually running all this and to me it's just uh an extension of what goes on in the playgrounds you know they're

00:43:47.460 - 00:44:05.600

hitting each other and then they get a stick and then they get stones and then they kick and then they fight and then they get into teenage years and they kick each other and knife each other and all the rest of it and then when they get a bit bigger and in power they actually have access to guns and bombs and you know it's just like this thread of what men

00:44:05.600 - 00:44:32.200

have actually done to the world what they've done to it I mean look what they've done to it they've nearly ruined it I mean they've just nearly ruined it so and we try and explain that to the lefty blokes in the peace movement that you know you're running it we're tired of men inventing bombs and then thinking it's a great idea to go and kill people in another country

00:44:32.200 - 00:45:01.060

that they don't even know and women get killed and children get killed in these countries it's not just all you know male bonding on the battlefield where they all cry all over each other it's it's women and children civilians getting killed and raped and abused and um right over their heads wouldn't even understand what you were talking about

00:45:01.720 - 00:45:25.600

so we just look at right we're leaving now yeah and again do it ourselves our own peace group oh division that's never going to work division no we're going to have our own peace group yeah yeah wow it is so funny how they can be you know you can be aligned with someone in one way and

00:45:25.600 - 00:45:58.920

then do two different experiences just doesn't and not see it and not see the impact on women's lives of um war and bombs and not see what happened when men all and i'm not belittling any of that i'm not saying that i mean you know when young lads of 18 and 19 are going off to fight and getting into all that stuff i mean that's it's tragic i mean that is tragic but there was no no understanding

00:45:58.920 - 00:46:24.540

of what happened with the women left behind and the children and what they were did and kept it all going and got jobs and then got thrown out the jobs when all the men came home because it was not right and and you think they couldn't it's like they just did not seem to understand that the impact of all this stuff was different for women some of it was the same but some of it was very

00:46:24.540 - 00:46:52.480

very very different and women's health and women's lives and nothing it's like you'd be talking to a wall i would have got more out of it talking to them well more understanding so we just got sort of fed up with them all and then of course we started going to green and that was like and that some of the more the more sort of um right on blokes would

00:46:52.480 - 00:47:15.480

all be terribly interested in what was going on at green and yeah and and their men go and they've always got to do it they've always got to say and the men go well i said no it's really a women's movement it's part of the women's move it's women so no men are there i said well yes occasionally come along and they run some of the food stalls and the big actions and the creches and things

00:47:15.480 - 00:47:40.620

like yes the creches they were they were very important you know the men are not allowed to be no no i said we just try no no it's a women's thing it's women well do you not think that's a bit sexist do you not think that's a bit divisive no and it was all the roles like that always he's just like do you know i really don't want i can't be asked to talk to you you're just

00:47:40.620 - 00:48:09.480

horrible go away um and there was he and that was it was really upsetting that even men that you from your peace group that believed profoundly and passionately about anti-nuclear stuff could come out with this shit you know you just got you just look at them go no and that's why sometimes i get a bit despairing because because it it's

00:48:11.400 - 00:48:30.520

not so i'm gonna have to get up and walk about a bit i've got my fire really hot i've got warm so i've got this heater on it's far too warm i know i'll stand over by the window and look out at the rain for a minute but it's disappointing that these men so i've never had much time for lefty blokes i hate them really i think i probably hate them and despise them

00:48:32.880 - 00:48:58.860

you know and see and women all they always come back well not all men are like that i mean my husband's really we're not talking about your husband we're not talking about individuals this is a system we're talking about a system and i think that's what greenham did for me as well was introduced me to the fact that there could be another system of women and my women powerful

00:49:01.660 - 00:49:24.840

strong ideas because the ideas that came out i mean it was just full of that you know it was just all that apart from what the men are doing but i get i do get upset because i don't see much has changed in a lot of ways so i do get a bit um despairing of it how do you see um kind of this generation

00:49:24.840 - 00:49:53.260

or the next generation of feminists like do you see uh any takeaways from greenham or no no there's too much liberal feminism about um not understanding people get very worried when you say you're a radical feminist they think they use radical in the way as if it's extreme instead of it being about the root cause of things and

00:49:55.660 - 00:50:26.940

there's so many strands of feminism and it's all got very uh liberal you can be what you like i mean and and i'm just i'm so anti identity politics and personality identity politics i'm just i rage about i mean i rage and rant about identity politics because that to me is just going back to all that stuff in the 80s about individualism as

00:50:26.940 - 00:50:51.600

if you're the only as you as an individual i mean when i think margaret thatcher actually said there's no such thing as society and the destruction and the damage that little phrase did was just horrendous and it's all about the individual and it's all about me me me and what i want to be and what i want to look like and what i want to do without a sense of collective

00:50:54.840 - 00:51:17.500

cooperative you know shared thinking and working for the working for you know that's what i liked about greenham as well you just felt you were working for a cause a women's cause affected all of us it wasn't about individuals there i mean although some of us did go fangirling with the individuals but there were it wasn't about the individuals there was all of us there

00:51:17.500 - 00:51:42.040

together to try to achieve something and that's what i've always i've always done in my life is try to not see myself to see myself as part of something rather than that's not to deny my individuality and my own sense of self as me as as me but i do know that that's why i get annoyed when they say my husband's not like that or my boyfriend i think

00:51:42.040 - 00:52:06.000

i don't care whether your husband's like that not like that i'm not i'm not talking about your sure you know my sons have a couple of times well i'm not like that mom and i said i didn't say you were darling i didn't say you were like that but you're part of a system that is like that so and i and i worry about the young people i've got six granddaughters you know

00:52:06.000 - 00:52:31.880

and i worry myself i worry about them because the pressure on them is very different i mean it's huge you know they're all on snapchat and instagram well i'm an instagram but you know what i mean it's i look at the photographs of themselves they post and it's all about looks and you know yeah it's funny that there is

00:52:31.880 - 00:52:56.940

political there's no i don't feel that there's a political movement and i think what we have we had a political we have the women's liberation movement and out of that came different things we had that movement i mean it wasn't an organized movement with you know secretaries and chair people and all the rest of it but it was definitely felt part of something that was

00:52:56.940 - 00:53:28.940

trying to change society right and i don't feel that now at all i feel it's identity and yeah very interesting yeah very narcissistic some of it and very individualistic and we won't as individuals we won't and all celebrity and and so you know and i'm not banging i'm not denouncing social media i use social media

00:53:28.940 - 00:53:50.500

in fact during this last year i don't know what i would have done without my my phone and zoom and facetime i don't know what i think i was going because i live on my own and you know my family around and near me but i live on my own so yeah it's hard it has been very hard the physical cost has been very hard to live without i'm in a

00:53:50.500 - 00:54:16.620

bubble with my daughter now and my grand d and my grandchildren so that's not nice but i don't see i mean i bang on at them all the time the older ones are great they think they think like oh i've got a really cool nana you know she she knows she knows things and i've got one of my grandsons he comes down my daughter's eldest boy he comes down we have wonderful conversations and

00:54:16.620 - 00:54:40.960

we talk to him about all sorts of things and um so i still feel as if i'm passing some of it on but i do think that we lack women lack a movement there are different movements and um i do webinars with the women's human rights campaign on a Saturday and a couple of monthly ones and things and

00:54:42.200 - 00:55:10.060

they have speakers from all over the world there was a wonderful one was on the other night there from south korea so what south did you see that no i didn't know it's on youtube it's um south korean radical feminists talking about how they've managed what they've done in order to try and promote women's rights in south korea wow really good it's run by

00:55:13.760 - 00:55:35.100

i can't remember i don't know what's the human rights women's human rights campaign they've got some every saturday they run a webinar on saturday afternoon that's well worth checking out you'll see women from all over the world talking on that so there is a movement and women do sometimes come out saying things like what we need is another women's movement that's what we need we need

00:55:35.100 - 00:56:02.220

another women's liberation movement to get some of that to break into some of that individualism and identity stuff so anyway that that's my thoughts for the day thank you yeah well i did ask yes i know i do worry about the the latest i don't think there's much cohesion sometimes in

00:56:02.220 - 00:56:30.220

younger women and it is all about looks and that depresses me because i think oh god and gender stereotypes i just worry so much about gender stereotypes i just think yeah oh god we should be getting up this shouldn't exist anymore yeah really strong and it shouldn't it shouldn't be here we you know i look at back i mean i had twins a boy and a girl twins and you know when i look at what

00:56:30.220 - 00:56:58.760

they wore in the 70s and then the backlash of course became unicorns and glitter and just backlashes happen backlashes are hard to deal with yeah i think backlashes are really there was there's always big backlashes against things oh one thing i was wondering about is um uh spirituality at greenham um and some of the

00:56:58.760 - 00:57:28.580

different practices like the pagan practices and the wiccan practices and oh yes i well i'm an old hippie yeah well way back in the 70s i was you know interested in all sorts of stuff like that so but i um i like these i like some of this stuff as part of my life rather than you know i know women

00:57:28.580 - 00:57:53.080

that are very pagan and women that are very into wicca and which all that so i'm very interested in and i've read lots of stuff and i've been to workshops and all sorts of things like that but i i just have it in my life rather than i was brought up very religious i was brought up in um i was brought up baptist

00:57:53.640 - 00:58:21.280

i was a sunday school teacher up till i was 24 really and people that know me well always go what i used to go to sunday school church on a sunday uh did sunday school in the afternoon and um or after church and then i did bible study classes on a wednesday night and more everybody out there knows me really well is all when that when that event when that comes out in a conversation

00:58:21.280 - 00:58:46.100

they're all going for really i said yep and i've still got some books that i won in um scripture exams i've still got some books from the 50s that i won in a scripture exam anyway there was a big thing happened in my life which i won't go into because that's not really important i just sort of woke up one morning almost not figuratively speaking anyway and thought what a load of

00:58:46.100 - 00:59:18.620

fucking shite my language but what am i doing what am i doing and um just went i get went i just i became became somebody that just didn't believe in any external god or anything of any shape whatsoever much to the horror of my family of course i'm like culty or anything it was just like my grandmother was heartbroken right after she died when she was nearly 90 she said i'd pray

00:59:18.620 - 00:59:52.660

for you every night darling that you'll come back to your faith and i please don't pray for me anymore i'm not going to come back to any faith so but i would also say i'm quite a spiritual person in that a lot of my so-called christian teachings is what led me to peace and cooperation and so society and sharing and caring all all that i know has come out of

00:59:52.660 - 01:00:22.020

that's what i've brought with me from the the religious teachings and then i would seek out other things like that other things that were all to do with loving the earth and you know i've been i've been a i was a vegetarian in 1971 right in the days when nobody was a vegetarian yeah definitely weird very weird i'm sure

01:00:22.820 - 01:00:50.240

so i had all that as well so i became a vegetarian because not only because of animals but because i realized through my exploration of the world and nature and all the rest of it that the earth couldn't actually sustain that it couldn't and the way we were living was going to cause terrible damage to the earth i mean it gives me no satisfaction that 50 years later

01:00:50.860 - 01:01:19.320

that's exactly what's happened so i all i that was all that so i saw you know i and that came from meeting women who were pagans and into witchcraft this love of the earth and love of and wanting to look after the earth and care for it and all the rest of it and then about 20 years ago became a vegan so that sort of stepped up something and so as i say it doesn't

01:01:19.320 - 01:01:44.860

give me any pleasure to be sitting listening to the news now and i'm talking and recommending that we eat less meat and all the rest and i think god some of us have been banging on about this for 50 years you know it's just really depressing so that's my um that's my involvement with things that are spiritual i would think that i do have a

01:01:44.860 - 01:02:14.760

form of spirituality and form of love of the earth and and sharing which is what a lot of these different groups are about yeah without naming myself as that i wouldn't call myself a pagan and i wouldn't call myself a witch i feel that would be a different thing for me it would mean i would have to you know that would even though a lot of what i do is all part of that you know

01:02:14.860 - 01:02:37.140

do you understand what i'm trying to say i don't know whether i've said it very well no absolutely absolutely um because sometimes we don't all fit into neatly into one thing do we but we can have interests in and obviously at greenham it was such a place of um uh you know ecofeminism and that obviously lends itself to this kind of pagan way with nature and things

01:02:37.140 - 01:03:05.160

and there were a lot of um rituals weren't there in terms of like the equinox and seeing in things then i mean i still you know i'm very aware of i mean they're all incorporated into you know i do like candles and i do think about things i do go out to stare at the moon and i do go out and connect with the moon when it's full and or connect with it when it's crescent and

01:03:05.160 - 01:03:32.400

what that means and the passing of time and i'm very very interested in the passing of time and naming and what and how we name time we actually name it so that we we sort of we can only understand time because we've named bits of it like anything if you name it you can understand it so we've named it all like seconds and minutes and hours and yeah yeah days and months and years

01:03:32.400 - 01:04:02.400

and decades and we've got names for all these things and and in amongst all that is the solstice and the and the pat and i'm i'm i'm from near glasgow and i'm growing up it was always new year that meant more to me than any christmas thing christmas always felt not the same as new year i feel as if i've always because that that was part of the scott the old scottish traditions

01:04:02.400 - 01:04:24.920

were all about the passing of the time of passing of time and the passing of the year so after the bells after midnight i you always had made sure you had something to eat and drink so that that would make sure that you would have something to eat and drink for the rest of the year and you cleared out your

01:04:24.920 - 01:04:50.260

rubbish and my nana used to get rid of the old ash and put the ash outside so that she didn't take the old ash into the new year with us and i kept a lot of that going and that's all very steeped in pagan ceremonies and cool thanks i was wondering if you had a kind of defining memory of greenham or if there was one if there's one memory that kind of sticks out yes that pulling

01:04:50.260 - 01:05:20.320

the fence yeah for that i'll never ever forget that moment that feeling that went through with when we were pulling the fence and we were managing to get some of the wire away from the the cement posts and just for that second or two i felt that the strength of us women could actually pull the fence down it was just such a moment of god we are so strong we could

01:05:20.320 - 01:05:42.960

actually just pull the fence down with a bit more going on we could do it i mean it didn't happen but we pulled some of it down but and that was without bolt cutters and without snipping anything or unpicking the things that attached them to the posts but it was just that it was i can't describe the feeling it just washed over my whole body this

01:05:44.180 - 01:06:09.460

strength and all it was was you pulling that was it wow but we were we had hold of the fence and we were like doing this pulling like this and pulling and the police were all there and everyone was pan they were all panicking and just and it was giving do you know i mean it was giving we were like oh come on more more we're doing this and there was just a feeling that for me that

01:06:09.460 - 01:06:31.740

well it's only one section i don't mean we were all doing it but certainly well we're all doing the fence we're all at the fence and we're all pulling the fence but where i was we just some we're looking at each other going oh we could get it like that it was just amazing feeling such strength i had felt as if i had such

01:06:33.640 - 01:06:59.160

strength in my body and that was to do with being with a whole load of women that were all focused on the same thing but that was the same time as the policemen got injured and the horses thing happened that was that as well yeah that was sometimes they all i had i have difficulty now sort of separating out some of these actions from um and there's a little moments they are one

01:06:59.160 - 01:07:25.360

of the other moments when we held the mirrors up to the base that was very profound and saying to them who are you protecting did you have any um conversations with any any yeah just asking who you you know sometimes you'd be wandering about and there'd be a soldier or policeman sitting on the other side and we used to say sometimes what are you doing there and this got to where

01:07:25.360 - 01:07:48.360

you know we work for the you know part of the state or we're protecting things protecting what you're protecting weapons that have the potential to wipe us all out with the press of a button you know you or some a phone call from one person to another you would just wipe all this out so what would it matter what why does that matter then if you're protecting something that has

01:07:48.360 - 01:08:09.520

the potential to destroy everything what are you protecting and you could see them thinking no i can't get into these i don't know and they're not of course they were not allowed really to say they were nice some of them were just nice lads all standing there you know it's interesting that it was all men we used to say that sometimes have you seen

01:08:09.520 - 01:08:37.120

have you seen a lot of you you're all blokes look at you and we're all women and you're all men this is very meaningful this i know yes so that's my moment is that fence moment that will always all i mean there's lots of them but that's i've always stood out for me that feeling of strength and power

01:08:39.880 - 01:09:01.980

yeah it sounds very green yeah some of it's very green it is very green i'm sure you've heard lots of this before i mean i'm just i'm probably repeating i'm probably saying the same thing as we all had that all of us that feeling the feeling if you were at greenham doing something everyone would have that green i'm

01:09:01.980 - 01:09:30.160

feeling everybody would have that feeling i'm going home the journey's home we'll be singing still singing some of the songs and and talking about just god what have we just been at what have we just done it's just yeah wonderful yeah oh and the friends you're with that you you traveled with um did you notice any kind of changes in them because of greenham or yeah

01:09:30.920 - 01:09:52.660

some of us set up the filing dales thing so and we all and we and they were part of my they were part of my peace group you see so we did all these actions i mean i remember we all dressed up in sort of hoods and things and carried we'd made a one of us one of them a couple of them had made this papi amashi cruise missile that we carried through the streets in richmond and then

01:09:52.660 - 01:10:19.760

stood in a silent vigil in richmond marketplace i mean they must have just thought richmond we just thought we were absolutely mad we didn't care how did that go down like i don't think they understood any of them and they're not they understood any of it and another time i wrote this little song and we all dressed up and went and we had instruments you know we had things that

01:10:19.760 - 01:10:47.680

clacked and banged and um shook and all the rest of it and we stood around the block tower and sang this song and made lots of noise i've got great photographs of that so that was what we did we did that we all went there for a specific reason to be part of greenham and to do things to do things to do actions we did actions we did we

01:10:47.680 - 01:11:17.160

had them planned out we did one a month for a few years we just did constantly did things or brought out the duck and cover stall just laugh sometimes to see people's faces piece christmas cards in the market before christmas you know and we've got a lot of abuse from people because it's a military town and got a lot of abuse other people would take

01:11:17.160 - 01:11:43.000

them and say i'll have a look at that and and other people would say things like good luck with what you're doing i really agree with you and you know so there was a whole mixture we did we did things all the time we had a big peace picnic down beside the river and and all that you know we we just were inspired by things to do yeah great green to me things

01:11:43.000 - 01:12:04.580

things brilliant well yeah it was our version of bringing greenham home everybody all of us i think had different women would take different things home i know that yeah we are individuals in reality but we all should be part of something

01:12:04.580 - 01:12:30.520

we all should be part of something that we can achieve far more together we can be far more together than we ever can really yeah what would your dream be for the future in terms of i know i know it's too big it's too big a question but i mean in terms of you know the direction of feminism maybe or in terms of kind of i would like to it does get

01:12:30.520 - 01:12:56.960

talked about in some of the groups i'm in about a new women's liberation movement a new one that's it's fit for purpose for this day and age involving the digital revolution and things that's happened i mean it's you know there's no that's not going to disappear but we need to but i would i want you see i would like everybody i like i would like all women to be radical

01:12:56.960 - 01:13:21.700

feminists because and and it to be understood what radical feminism is about what it actually is it's got really good clear analyses of all sorts of different things i mean i i don't know how every women aren't radical feminists because we need to to be radical feminists you've got to appreciate where the root of all this has come from and the root of all where all this has come

01:13:21.700 - 01:13:47.160

from is the way men are running the world and that's and the way they've always always run it the damage is being done by men and again it goes back to not let's not go into individual individual men but talk about systems that's what i would like to see i'd like to see these things being taught as what a system is what an actual structure and system is and what patriarchy is

01:13:47.160 - 01:14:23.620

and how it's running everything i would like young people to understand that that's not about hating men it's not about wanting to kill them all or destroy them it's about recognizing that they are running it everything they're running all of it every single aspect of our life is being run by men and that needs to change i used to do a workshop on this i used to it used to be

01:14:23.620 - 01:14:45.540

called women's position in society and i drew them as little houses in a circle and they had roofs and i used to say who's in the roof space of this who's actually running all this and of course it's men that run it all and that's i said the reason i put it in a circle i said because it's global there isn't a single society or country anywhere that's not run by men

01:14:46.320 - 01:15:12.880

and if you just and i said in feminism and i used to say that feminism for me radical feminism for me was actually i was all sitting in a circle with a cup in the middle of the room and we'd all see the same cup we wouldn't we'd see it all from a different position so and then i said if we all got up and moved our round chairs we would all then see the cup

01:15:12.880 - 01:15:33.320

from that person's so i said some of us wouldn't know that it had a handle because the handle would be on the other side from where we are sitting but if i got up and swapped places but there's somebody on the other side i would see that it had a handle and i said that's all feminism is feminism is just a different way of looking at the same thing and i said we just need

01:15:33.320 - 01:15:58.540

to know that radical feminism is trying to find out where all that's come from i don't want to sound as if i'm telling you stuff that you already know i don't want to sound all teachy and not that's what i would like feminism being taught for what it is or what it actually is which is a way of looking at the same thing differently yeah i was i was just thinking as you were saying

01:15:58.540 - 01:16:26.120

that um i uh studied sociology at college level this is 16 17 years old and i was taught radical feminism was exactly that thing of man hating wanting to kill men or like put men on the one side of the equator and women on the other and all of this and i was taught that so i was um of the impression that i was oh it's definitely a liberal feminist because like there's no way i

01:16:26.120 - 01:16:48.200

want to kill people so you know it sounds absolutely terrifying and i was just thinking as you're saying that god i so wish that i'd have had some easy to understand and you know workshop like that i would have put it in such a different way yeah yes because i say that don't be afraid for the word radical it's not it's not what people try and make out to be it doesn't mean

01:16:48.200 - 01:16:54.060

extreme or off the wall or anything it literally means what the word means which is root