00:00:02.040 - 00:00:33.740

Yeah, so I was talking to somebody called Sue yesterday, who was at Yellowgate, and you had a little comment there about if you were at Yellowgate. So I'd just like you to tell me a little bit about what the different gates were like. Well, because I was very young and naive, inexperienced. I was sort of being led around

00:00:33.740 - 00:01:13.260

really by anybody who would look after me. But I was at Greengate, and Greengate was very friendly, and it felt like, to be at Yellowgate you had to be, I don't know, just pretty hard really. I suppose you did actually have to be pretty hard, because you were right on the roadside, and you were taking the flak constantly, and the little haven in the woods

00:01:13.260 - 00:01:40.940

of Greengate was protected from a lot of that. We were close to the silos, but yeah, it was much more relaxed, I think. And what about the other gates? Because I went with somebody who went to Bluegate, and they were sort of, in my head,

00:01:40.980 - 00:02:10.760

I don't know if this was actually the way it was supposed to be, but they seemed to be the animal rights protesters, and vegans, and yeah, very serious, sort of, on other campaigns as well as, you know, the immediate one that was in front of you. So yeah, maybe everywhere felt a bit tougher than where I was. I didn't choose to go to Greengate, it's

00:02:10.760 - 00:02:25.860

just the way it happened, I suppose. That's where we'd gone the first time we went, and so therefore that was the place I headed for when I went down to stay. And what about any of the other gates? Did they have any feel to them about what happened there?

00:02:25.860 - 00:02:54.660

I think one of them was a bit religious, but I can't remember. I want to say Lila, of course. Yeah, somewhere a bit more gentle. The gentle end of the rainbow, but I can't remember. We did a little bit of visiting. I don't think I ever walked all the way around. I know that was a mission at one point, but I don't think I ever did it. And so, you know, most of my

00:02:55.240 - 00:03:15.220

interaction with Yellowgate, Maingate, was to go and get water. And if there was, you know, anything, any major action happening up there that, you know, we were drafted in to go, you know, to go and take part in. I think I remember going to some sort of major meeting.

00:03:19.560 - 00:03:42.100

Can you remember what it was about? No, I can't remember what it was about. I remember going to a meeting in the Friends Meeting House in Newbury. Very much about whether or not people who got arrested were going to go to prison, should go to prison. You know, about like, you know, you weren't

00:03:42.100 - 00:04:12.840

sticking up for what you really believed in if you didn't. But then, you know, you're not there to be a number on the gate if you do. So, you know, big debates about that. But not, that was definitely in town. So I think that like the Yellowgate thing now, when I go to Preston New Road anti-fracking site, that definitely reminds me of the Yellowgate

00:04:12.840 - 00:04:35.860

sort of thing because it's just so, just on the road, there's no, you know, there's no buffer really. Hard place to demonstrate. Whereas Maingate, at least it had a, you know, a gate. At least there was a bit of roadside, what do you call it? Curb, you know, a place for a camp.

00:04:38.920 - 00:05:18.720

So, can you tell us your name and when you first visited Greenham? So my name's Annie, Annie Tracy. I went with my sister on one of the big actions, Embrace the Base, I suppose. It was probably what it was. I was 19 and doing nothing on the dole and my sister was at university in Leeds and the Leeds women were going to go down in a bus for

00:05:18.720 - 00:05:45.920

this event and I went too and I think I did know before I visited Leeds that I was going, but I know that it was a secret because it was supposed to be a big surprise, mass action, and so I didn't tell my parents that I was going. So it was a bit of a surprise for them when we were hung up saying, guess where we were today and was it on the news and everything.

00:05:48.940 - 00:06:11.620

But I lived with my mum and my granny and definitely grew up in a matriarchy and they were very proud of the fact that we'd been there that day. So it wasn't that we didn't tell them because they wouldn't approve of anything. So that was at a weekend and I went back, signed on and packed a bag and went down the following Thursday, I think after

00:06:11.620 - 00:06:45.800

signing on, to stay with one of the women from Leeds who then went to live at Bluegate, Helen I think her name was. I sort of think she's got blue hair but that's probably just the Bluegate connection, she maybe didn't have blue hair at the time. So we hitched down and I probably never hitched before, I can't remember, but then that was what

00:06:45.800 - 00:07:12.800

you did. So I was signing on in Hull and I was hitching down to Newbury and back every fortnight. So that's what I did and it was plainly obvious where we were going and it's plainly obvious where we'd been when we were coming back because we just smelled of fire smoke and well probably other things. So was the fortnightly visit because you had to go back to Hull to sign on? Yeah,

00:07:13.300 - 00:07:46.340

yeah. So go back, sign on, wash my clothes probably and pick up my money and go back, I think. So I'd be like spend a couple of days in Hull and then go again. And what year was that? So it was 83, so it was the autumn of 83 and that was, so I was there when the missiles came in

00:07:50.920 - 00:08:15.940

and the only things that I have from that then were, well I've got, the only actual thing I have is a copy of The Observer with an article in it written by Martha Gellhorn and she came to, you know, for a visit and talked to various people and then wrote this article for The Observer and she does refer to a conversation that happened, that I was part of around the fire at Greengate

00:08:16.660 - 00:08:40.680

and so I'm in it. I know it's me and somebody else might know it's me but, you know, she describes me wearing things I wasn't wearing so it was interesting from a, you know, perspective of this is how news is written that people just have a conversation then go away and write the thing without actually, you know, the fine tuning of the detail doesn't

00:08:40.680 - 00:09:13.740

really matter. I remember thinking well that's not right. Anyway, so I've got that and then recently some photos have come to light of a visit from Joan Baez who came in the February of 84 and sang some songs and I was, and then I wasn't there after that. I left and only went back for the odd week, you know, the odd visit really after that and so it's, I'm sort of surprised

00:09:13.740 - 00:09:37.540

that there were these things that happened at that time but I think because that's when the missiles actually arrived, you know, that just coincided really that happened to be when I was there but I've got no photographs of my own or anything just got this article in The Observer and some diaries, some little comments in my diaries. Have you, do you know where those

00:09:37.540 - 00:10:04.160

diaries are? Yeah. Did you have to dig those out to know where they were? Well I knew where they were but I can't find one from 83 which is a shame because it would be really interesting to read what I thought when I arrived and, you know, if I actually wrote honestly which of course most teenagers don't really write very honestly in their diaries do they, but yeah it would be

00:10:04.160 - 00:10:36.680

interesting to find just a bit more about how it felt to be there. I felt very, I could tell you how I felt, I felt like I didn't know what I was doing at all. I knew that I wanted to be there and it was the right thing to do. I think maybe when we went for the day, so let's talk about basics, when we went for the day for the big action I probably didn't go to the toilet at all

00:10:36.680 - 00:11:03.980

while we were there so I had no concept of what toileting would be like. I think I'd heard about it but hadn't visited it. I think the night we arrived, when we arrived to stay, we might have, Helen and I might have slept under a plastic sheet over a twig, like I don't mean that, I wasn't a bender, it was just a piece, you know, just a triangle, a bit of plastic

00:11:03.980 - 00:11:29.700

because we arrived quite late and I'd taken a tent with me, a small tent, so it was probably quite late and it was the winter so it was dark when we got there and so I didn't really know anything about what I was going to, I don't think, you know, visit it for a day, didn't really know how food worked, I knew that people cooked on the fire but

00:11:31.540 - 00:12:00.940

yeah, it was all to learn and so the next day I probably put my tent up really close to the fence which, you know, sort of visible from the fire but, you know, very, very close to the fence which obviously later on became, obviously that was a bad idea, a stone drained down on my tent and the Scottish

00:12:00.940 - 00:12:27.260

kept me awake all night. But so then it's just sort of okay, so there's a tent with some food in it and there's a fire and there's, you know, water and kettles and we didn't really camp as children so, you know, my camping skills weren't massive, I'd been away with school

00:12:28.220 - 00:12:55.240

camping a little bit but nothing really so I could see that I like fires and I could see that looking after the fire was quite a good job and quite an important job so I did quite a lot of hanging around the fire and getting wood and keeping the fire going, making sure there were kettles with water and at some point, presumably, other than just going off for a wee behind a

00:12:55.240 - 00:13:28.100

bush, I had to go and find the toilet. Which was commonly known as? A shit pit and, yeah, it was just a pit with two planks over it and, you know, once you've seen it, it's, you know, that's it isn't it? It's like, okay, yeah, it is what everybody said it would be and it works as long as you're sure-footed you're all right. So this was really a sense of not

00:13:28.100 - 00:13:56.200

knowing, Greenham Common didn't come with any instructions, you were just figuring out? Well, yeah, I suppose it didn't come with any instructions and, I mean, lots of life doesn't come with any instructions does it? So I don't suppose I was bothered by the fact that, you know, instructions but I didn't really want to ask. That's, you know, maybe a thread that runs

00:13:56.200 - 00:14:29.200

through my life. I do remember following someone to find out where this shit pit was and, yeah, anyway, that's enough about the toilet but, yeah, you know, I don't remember saying, well, where is it? Can you show me or, you know, or can I do this or how do I do that? I don't remember asking any questions. I just watch and then learn and, yeah. And is that part of the

00:14:29.200 - 00:14:58.220

whole thing about this thing as a kind of self-organising system by women that, because there isn't an induction, there isn't the leader, there isn't, you spoke about going to a big meeting about how, you know, does one, do you get arrested or do you pay the fine or whatever, how were the morals and rules and laws of Greenham figured out? Was it mostly just by

00:14:59.980 - 00:15:25.980

doing and everyone found their own way? Yeah, I think so but I think there were, I mean, there were bigger, I didn't get too drawn into some of the, you know, should we go to prison? You know, I was just, I wasn't going to go to prison so, and now, in reality, that's, that would have been a wise

00:15:25.980 - 00:15:55.520

decision, you know, I could just about cope with wandering off to the shit pit on my own and then I go to prison, you know, so, although I probably felt like I should have more, I don't mean more commitment, but I could understand the argument that we should be standing up for our, you know, beliefs and, and maybe we were the age that should be, you know, going to prison rather

00:15:55.520 - 00:16:25.160

than the, but there were lots of ways of doing it and there were some older women who, you know, within the greater network who were refusing to pay their taxes to pay for nuclear arms and the like and in some ways that, you know, it's probably, you know, they were probably better equipped to make that decision than a 19-year-old. So yeah, I think that sort of acceptance of,

00:16:29.380 - 00:17:01.300

you know, I wouldn't say anybody, everybody who turned up and, and my understanding that if you, you know, if you, you know, get stuck in and do things then you will be, you know, you will be accepted as part of the family or, you know, you're useful or, you know, whatever, that's how those things work and I don't think, I don't remember, I think, I think it felt to me like

00:17:01.300 - 00:17:36.880

there were, that the people in charge were at Yellowgate, but there was obviously a conversation about, there was conversation about what happened and how it happened that filtered down to everybody, that everybody had a voice in that, yeah, and you could make your own decisions. Was going off to Greenham, was that what all your peers were doing? Was this kind of,

00:17:38.920 - 00:18:11.620

sorry, was this commonplace or was it a bit extraordinary when you went back home and told people what you'd been up to? No, I didn't know anybody else who, who was doing it, who did do it. I think that, it was, it is extraordinary in that it was out of the ordinary, but I don't think anybody thought

00:18:11.620 - 00:18:50.320

it was extraordinary, I think people thought it was weird, but I think I've been, you know, I've been the weird person all my life, so what it did for me was to help me enjoy being the weird person or at least accept it and say, I don't care. So no, you know, my peers who'd gone to university, mostly, or were in Hull, were going out and, not to nightclubs and

00:18:51.620 - 00:19:21.800

wearing makeup and bothering about fashionable clothes, and I was wearing an ex-army parka and khaki pants and large boots and woolly jumpers and I never really went back to going to clubs and dressing up and all that stuff ever again, I don't think. I'm not saying I didn't go out, but I know all of that thing that I'd,

00:19:22.200 - 00:19:47.360

you know, my 18th birthday party, you know, I'd had a party with my best friend whose birthday was the day before me at a nightclub, and there's pictures of us, you know, both with our mist-sandwiched copper and gold lipstick and eyeshadows and, you know, crimped hair and, and it's great, but, you know, a year later, well, 18 months later, that's not,

00:19:48.460 - 00:20:08.120

that wasn't me and that never was me again. How did it feel when the missiles arrived? It felt big. I can't remember where I was going, but I was walking down the road,

00:20:09.680 - 00:20:42.040

the A, no, whatever it was, and I can't remember if I, why, but we just saw this huge airplane and, yeah, everybody knew exactly what it was, and, just wait for that to stop, shall we? Do you need to answer it?

00:20:43.020 - 00:21:02.240

It's not me. Is it me? So, yeah, it felt big, felt a bit defeated, I suppose. I thought about that because I thought it might be something that you would ask,

00:21:02.240 - 00:21:31.040

but I don't remember what we did. I suspect we went and sat in the road and sang, but, yeah, no, I'm not entirely sure how that, You said it was the right place to be and it was the right thing to do. What was your sense of that at the time as why that was the right thing to do?

00:21:37.000 - 00:22:05.640

I think the whole political thing at the time was Thatcher, and so from being, you know, quite a lot younger, we'd been dominated by this whole political world that was, that probably felt quite powerless to do anything about, really, and Ronnie Reagan and, you know, the escalation of the whole nuclear

00:22:13.560 - 00:22:33.580

armament, yeah, just seemed to, it was a place of feeling powerless over a lot of things happening that you didn't like, it felt dangerous, you know, it is hard to go back then, well, except for now with Trump

00:22:34.480 - 00:23:11.040

also being dangerous, you can understand some of that feeling, and, you know, going on a march every now and then, a CND march or whatever, didn't seem to be anything, do anything, feel constructive enough, I suppose, as a political action, but then to go to Greenham and go like, oh, here's something I could do, you know,

00:23:12.580 - 00:23:37.360

it's hard to talk about how I felt then, but I think it must have just been like, well, I can do this, I'm not doing anything else, and I was looking for something to do, because I was sort of stuck in limbo, you know, I wasn't doing, I didn't have a plan at that point, so, I've never really been, other than Greenpeace, been politically involved in anything

00:23:38.480 - 00:24:12.800

party-ish, but also, but it's just, it's women, isn't it, you know, and that thing about like, look what you can do, I felt part of that thing, I was, you know, obviously, I've already said I was weird, I was the oddball, I wasn't doing anything, and here was something I could do, and be part of something, and be included in something, and be doing something, so,

00:24:15.700 - 00:24:38.580

it wasn't obvious at the time how important, you know, how big that would be as part of the historical landscape of, you know, so when my children say, oh, you know, you're part of history, or other people say, oh, you're part of history, and you go, well, yeah, but you didn't know you were doing that at the time, did you? We don't know we're making history when we're

00:24:38.580 - 00:25:05.320

making history. So, I suppose the feeling of belonging is, you know, why does it feel like the right thing to do, you know, although when I talk about getting there and not knowing what, how to be, or what, you know, what happens, I wouldn't have gone if I felt like I wasn't going to feel okay there. So, it must be, yeah, the general feeling of acceptance of community by

00:25:05.320 - 00:25:32.000

those women. And how, where do you think that comes from? You said you grew up in a matriarchal household. Do you think it was, do you think that comes from there, or was there a particular aspect to how you came across feminism, or? Oh, is that what it was? I don't know, I suppose the matriarchy will have had some bearing on that, yeah, but, you know, I don't

00:25:32.000 - 00:26:01.820

think that's what I was doing. I didn't think I was leaving one, you know, one nest to go and, you know, just to find another one. But, you know, if you look back at it, it's probably, was important. I didn't mean that so much as why, I'll just say, well, why was it important to you that it was women there? Well, I think you're right. I think that will have, you know,

00:26:01.880 - 00:26:29.280

that will have been why it felt so, well, not necessarily entirely because it was, you know, because other people who went there will have had the same, I'm sure will have had the same feeling, but not having come from, you know, the house I grew up in. So, I think women together was, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

00:26:29.280 - 00:26:53.360

So, you do end up generalising quite a lot when having these conversations, don't you? So, it's like, you know, we create a much more friendly, cooperative society, I think, but that is a generalisation and there are always, you know, the exceptions to that, aren't there? I was wondering if you'd had any other kind of political involvement with organising with women

00:26:53.360 - 00:27:25.580

or not women that had made you think, or was it just going along and thinking, you know, this is what I want to do? Well, not prior to that, no. I mean, you know, I'd been on a boat with 39 women and, you know, lived in close proximity with them for a fortnight, but that's the only, other than from being at home, I know I hadn't been anywhere else or

00:27:26.560 - 00:27:56.780

known that that was a thing that would, you know, call to me or anything, but it was a very, you know, our house was majorly female, so, yeah, I suspect that there'll be an underlying feeling of feeling at home with women. That definitely continues today.

00:27:59.120 - 00:28:30.560

With the political actions, so apart from just the living at the camp, was there, how did you get involved in those things? I can remember doing things and it would normally just come about that there would be a conversation that something was going to happen, so I can remember blocking, blockading the gate, a green

00:28:30.560 - 00:29:00.180

gate, and that makes me think it might have been the day after the missiles arrived or the day after or whatever, because I don't know why we would have just chosen to go and do it. There was just, it would just be word of mouth, you know, such and such is going to go in, you know, they're going to go in tonight, that sort of thing, and, you know, there's no pressure to

00:29:00.180 - 00:29:27.900

join in, but in some ways it's a bit like, well, for me, I think, well, what's the point of being there if you're not going to go and take part really? So, yeah, it would, if there was a big event, I think people were a bit more careful just to make, because strangers would arrive and people were more, I can remember having a conversation with somebody and thinking,

00:29:28.180 - 00:29:58.460

actually, I think I've just probably spoken to the wrong person. But in general, with people who were, you know, women who were living there, um, you know, discussion of a plan, and then you would either be joining or not, as the case may be. I do remember standing and watching the first time and watching people sitting down in the road

00:29:58.460 - 00:30:37.900

and, um, thinking, okay. Didn't know whether to join in or not. What was that like? Did it look scary? No, I don't think so. I don't think it looked scary. I maybe thought I hadn't read all the instructions yet. How to, how to not be dragged away by a police officer. Do you think there were a few people turned up who were

00:30:38.620 - 00:30:58.340

undercover or spying and when you said, oh, maybe I've spoken to the wrong person? Yeah, I think, I think I do remember, um, um, yeah, I think I talked to somebody who's probably a policewoman. Uh, it wasn't when I was there. Uh, it was when I went back, maybe about the following

00:31:00.320 - 00:31:22.260

September or October, might have been Halloween following year and, uh, or even two years later. Um, somebody's asking a lot of questions. So what's happening? Okay. When, you know, how's that happening? And, you know, and afterwards you go like, oh, okay. Well, also because there was a little bit of, uh,

00:31:26.420 - 00:31:51.600

passing, passing the, you know, passing, passing it on sort of just, you know, keep it close to chest sort of thing. And I thought, oh, I think I've just said too much. But again, that was partly due to having not been, um, incumbent, you know, not been living there full time. I think you just forget. I don't remember really, um, that happening when

00:31:51.600 - 00:32:22.340

I was there in 83, 84, uh, you know, beginning of 84 because, um, maybe because we were all much more sort of, it was a tighter unit and there wasn't, you know, so many people just coming in and going out. Do you think that was difficult for the women who were there long-term to have? I mean, I heard the expression weekender, you know, to have,

00:32:22.360 - 00:32:48.360

to have women just turning up for a little visit and going away again and had to be introduced to everything. And do you think that got quite difficult? I think it, it, um, yeah, I think it's really wearing for people who were there solidly. And I think that, you know, I, I was aware of that. I remember doing a lot of talking

00:32:48.360 - 00:33:17.580

to people who came, who were just visiting, but then I did take it on myself to keep fire and stuff quite often. So, you know, if they, if people came, well, I say people, I mean women, because we didn't have any men, even visitors at Greengate. Um, so if they came to just to, to bring donations or, or whatever, um, yeah, it's quite, it was a job that needs doing. And,

00:33:21.220 - 00:33:47.260

I think, I think it, you know, did take that role off other people who, who didn't want to have to continually repeat themselves and engage with, with, with the weekenders or the, uh, day, day trip visitors. And it, and it probably gets, you know, I probably got fed up with it as well at some point, but, um, and I think with most, you know, roles, everybody

00:33:47.260 - 00:34:07.240

just sort of rotated around. We used to make a bit of a plan as to who was going to make the evening meal and, you know, there would be two people. So it was never just one person had to do anything and do it all. But, uh, other than that, it was sort of a, people just did things that needed doing. Um,

00:34:10.320 - 00:34:47.480

and I just, I think it's just one of those parts of that, that jobs list really. What would, what would you say a typical day was like? Um, cold in the morning, sit by the fire and wait for the kettle to boil. I mean, I think for me, a typical job day, and it's not necessarily, um,

00:34:54.340 - 00:35:19.180

yeah, of, of three months, say, more days were, were wait for the kettle to boil, have some tea, um, go and fetch some firewood, wait for the kettle to boil, go and have a walk up by the fence and see what, you know, have a listen, you know, go and help somebody make the tea, uh, the supper or whatever,

00:35:20.520 - 00:35:42.340

chat, do a lot of talking, sing some songs. Um, there was much more of that than there was cutting the fence and, um, trespassing on the base. But, um, How important do you think that was that, that, that there was that, just that daily life and that presence going on there? Well, I think that, you know, that's where it

00:35:42.340 - 00:36:05.160

came from, wasn't it? There will be a presence here that will, you know, protest. It wasn't, it wasn't started to be a, we're going to destroy it. It's, it was a publicity thing, you know, raise the profile. Um, so it's really important. And I think for the, for the, um,

00:36:05.160 - 00:36:44.480

um, for that to come for the whole thing to continue, you know, the, the, the, the basics have to be covered, don't they? So, you know, for people to live there, uh, for those who did live there solidly, um, you know, your basic needs need to be fed. So yeah, food and water and heat and,

00:36:44.680 - 00:37:14.400

um, social contact all need to be covered as well as all the political, um, bigger political, um, conversation, protest, going to court, supporting other people, other women who, you know, taking it further. What did you, what was your experience of, of military police or soldiers, either American or

00:37:14.400 - 00:37:43.260

British? Um, we had a lot of, uh, stories that would be passed on about who, who were okay. You know, the Hampshire police were quite nice, but the Met were horrible. And, uh, um, when we, we did a big action and we cut a lot of fence down the, we had the powers and they were really horrible. And, um, and when you think about that, you know, the, the training that

00:37:43.260 - 00:38:07.420

these people have and the fact that, you know, we were really close to this, to the silos and, you know, it's, it's inevitable, isn't it really? Of course they're going to, they're not little pussycats, are they? Um, so yeah, there was various bits of knowledge that was passed on about who would be okay. And, you know, some of them,

00:38:09.800 - 00:38:34.760

yeah, some people you'd have a conversation, they were bored mostly, weren't they? So if they want to have a conversation, they'd have a conversation with you. Um, I think, but in the middle of the night when somebody's, you know, also bored and decides to throw rocks at your tent, um, constantly, then you know, that's, they're doing that on purpose.

00:38:34.900 - 00:38:58.080

That's not only just sort of, you know, it's intimidation and I think I felt persecuted. Well, I put my tent there, didn't I? So it was my choice. Was, was a lot of the attitude, was there a lot of misogyny? Was there a lot of... Yeah, and if you, so like, I mean, you know, look back at what it was like in 1983, 1984,

00:38:58.400 - 00:39:19.800

in the world in general, you know, you do realise that it was a different, it was a different world and people did talk to everybody differently. Um, you'd, you'd get most of the abuse from just people driving down the road though, so you walk into town, you go to Sainsbury's or whatever, you know, um,

00:39:20.680 - 00:39:41.580

there'd be, you know, you'd get a lot, you'd get abuse from just ordinary people as much as from the, you know, the police and the squaddies. And was that unbalanced? Did you, was the sense that everybody in that county or near that town wanted... Yeah, I think we, yeah, you know, I think we just thought that everybody in

00:39:41.940 - 00:40:10.520

Newbury and Berkshire hated us, which, you know, in reality, if you think about it, can't be true, can it? And, you know, there were women from Hampshire and Berkshire, uh, who came to camp, but, you know, they were probably highly under pressure as well because they were... In their own backyard? Yeah, and also probably in a mine already, so...

00:40:11.880 - 00:40:31.680

And what about the ones who were friendly and supportive? Who, the soldiers and squaddies? Quakers. Oh, the Quakers, yeah. Um... Well, what was it like going to Sainsbury's? Was it like the, was the checkout, people at the checkout be... Well, they've got to take your money,

00:40:31.760 - 00:40:56.860

haven't they? So, you know, um... But did it feel like you were not wanted everywhere you went? Yeah, I think so, yeah. I think that's the way I felt. But then, like I say, you know, I spent a lot of time, like, feeling that I didn't, you know, I didn't fit in anyway, so it wasn't new to me, and I might have assumed that rather than totally felt it,

00:40:57.180 - 00:41:24.840

so I might have been a bit of both. But the... So it's a bit like going back to the hitchhiking, you know, you go, a really posh car picks you up, and, you know, you try not to tell them where you're going, but, like I say, you know, it's fairly obvious. So, at that time, women moving around, hitching, yeah, dressed as we were, where we were and where we were going, they wouldn't

00:41:24.840 - 00:41:55.000

pick you up unless they were, you know, interested to hear. And did you get aggression from those people or...? No. No, not in general. So my experience was that, was never, people who picked us up, men who picked us up, were interested and on balance supportive, because otherwise they wouldn't pick you up. Exactly. We never got picked up by somebody who just wanted

00:41:55.000 - 00:42:19.500

to harangue us. No. I think there was one lorry driver who just wanted to do a lot of talking, and you know, and you're very wary, because actually, is this going to lead to telling us how do we have to have a rattle and all the rest of it? And he ended up showing us which gate to get out of and all sorts, and I think maybe that's part of the, the feeling in the, in the

00:42:19.500 - 00:42:48.960

country was not the same as the feeling in, around Newbury, where jobs were dependent or whatever, that there was, there was actually quite a lot of support for what was going on, in unexpected places. And I think that's always the case, you know, looking back in our recent, you know, experiences elsewhere, yeah, there are, it's not always,

00:42:49.180 - 00:43:16.160

you know, the men just slagging off the women or, you know, it's not, it wasn't just a women's fight, obviously. And so to assume that everybody thinks the opposite is, is wrong, and it's how, you know, you have to remember, remember that. I agree, you know, I'm picked up by, well, it wasn't a dustbin wagon, but it's practically a dustbin wagon,

00:43:16.260 - 00:43:40.780

and I was nearly home once. And okay, you're in Yorkshire, it could, you know, it's not as obvious necessarily where you've come from. But I agree, I don't think that any of those men would have picked us up, and they'd have just told you to get out, they'd have just dropped you off straight away. They wouldn't drive people around either to have a fight with them while

00:43:40.780 - 00:44:12.140

they're driving, because that's not, they don't want to do that, do they? Or, it's helping, isn't it? So they're not going to help you by giving you a lift, unless there's some either agreement or support or, you know, or neither, you know, a lack of opinion either way. But yeah, closer to the base, there's all, the point of the thing, which in this case was the

00:44:12.140 - 00:44:42.680

base, there's jobs and livelihoods and, you know, more real things for them to be wary of losing, so. I did get picked up by somebody who turned out to be an RA fighter pilot. That's been the weirdest of the lot. But I think, does it, does that sense of, if you look back now, do you think, okay, so there was, there were more allies than you were aware of at the time,

00:44:43.260 - 00:45:11.060

and part of the thing about being an activist, especially when you're young, is kind of work yourself up into being able to do these extraordinary things, and that you're not aware that there might be quite a lot of people who would be supportive, if you're more alone than you are. Well, in my experience, I probably did feel, you know, far more alone than I was.

00:45:12.480 - 00:45:58.280

Somebody recently has said to me, I was always extremely, he didn't say proud, what did he say? I can't remember. But, you know, but along those lines of, you know, amazed, you know, and that I'd been there. I didn't know him when I was there, it was afterwards, but it was, and it was somebody from my background that I just, like, you know, I wasn't telling anybody

00:45:58.280 - 00:46:21.100

that I'd done those things, because I, you know, I was, well, self-preservation. I was like, you know, that's something that happened before. I didn't, you know, it's not part of this, and I'm not talking about it, and. Is this a friend who said they were proud of what you'd done? Yeah, and at the time, when, you know, when he found out that I'd been there, he said, yeah, but I don't

00:46:21.100 - 00:46:44.280

remember, he never said that at the time. I didn't know that until, like, 30 years later. So, you know, it's like, well, I didn't know that. Yeah, really. I wonder if it's. So, all the time I was still sort of keeping it quiet, really, that I'd done that, because I was in an environment where, you know, a lot of people

00:46:44.280 - 00:47:07.580

would have been very hostile, in my opinion, so I didn't talk about it, and every now and then people would say, oh, apparently you were at Greenham Common, and I'd go, yeah, why? Sort of like, you know, so what? Sort of thing, you know, what's it got to do with you? That's totally irrelevant to this world that we're in at the moment. I had to sort of shut down the

00:47:07.580 - 00:47:28.540

conversation. It wouldn't, I never felt it was coming from a place of, like, wow, that's amazing, you know, I'd really like to learn more about it, because I, you know, I suppose it was like, oh, they were just a bunch of lesbians, weren't they? You know, and all of that sort of classic, how to diss this thing that happened, was probably still happening at that time.

00:47:31.500 - 00:47:54.320

You know, I just thought that's where the conversation's going to go, so I'm not going to have it. And you found out since that perhaps there was more. Maybe more people weren't actually going to say those things, and I was, you know, I was going like, yeah, what? And? And those stories being effectively how it was covered by the press?

00:47:55.980 - 00:48:23.900

I suppose so, because how else would anybody in, you know, around the country know anything? The world's different now, isn't it? I mean, you can't move for information getting from one side of the world to the other immediately now, whereas, you know, we, yeah, the telly and the newspapers ruled supreme at that point.

00:48:25.080 - 00:48:57.440

And the web, the telephone web, telephone dream. And well, I was thinking about you, you said, you know, you've got this copy of an Observer magazine that's from 1984, and you asking your parents if the, did you see it on the news? That's where we were yesterday. It was, it was a time before mobile phones,

00:48:58.120 - 00:49:22.320

absolutely, wickable fabrics. Oh, gosh, wickable fabrics indeed. I remember somebody coming with a, so there's this new, there's this new fabric, you can make a bivy bag out of, it's called Gore-Tex, and it's, oh, that's a funny word, isn't it, for a fabric? You know, it was new, Gore-Tex was new, and it was just being introduced as a, you know,

00:49:22.320 - 00:49:50.900

waterproof, breathable thing in 1983. But how did, it's astonishing to look back and think, well, how did, you know, whatever it was, 300,000, I don't know, women get organised without mobile phones or email? And I think we, we forget, we can't remember what that was like, so we just,

00:49:52.560 - 00:50:12.700

you had to get people in on the landline, you know, that concept, it's like, we forget that that's actually how things got done. Yeah, so it makes me think that maybe the women's group thing was a bigger thing at the time, reclaiming the night, you know, women's groups as a sort of social network of things happening,

00:50:13.300 - 00:50:37.120

you know, because if I went down with the Leeds women, they were obviously a group, you know, that would meet together to do political actions, presumably. And that might have been from the university, I don't know if it was based at the university or elsewhere, but, because it wasn't my group, but, you know, I suppose those things were more widespread,

00:50:38.880 - 00:51:00.860

more commonplace, in a way that I suspect they aren't now. Um, but, but that's, how do you find, you know, how do you, how do you get a load of women together? Well, you find out where they congregate and you, and you contact them there. But I think the thing about Greenham, so like when, you know, that initial spider's webbing of

00:51:00.860 - 00:51:30.580

the, you know, the fence and hanging pictures of your grandchildren on, that's one of the things that I think the world was probably surprised at. But it was really great that it wasn't just young women and the young women, it was, it was, it was all women and so the women's institutes and the Quakers and the knitters and everybody turned out, didn't they? You know, it was,

00:51:30.580 - 00:51:54.040

uh, it was for all women, it wasn't just for the animal rights protesters and the vegans and the lesbians, although there were plenty of all of those things. Did you find, was, again, was that something that you, so those kind of activists, so over a particular... Did you have that word there?

00:51:57.060 - 00:52:21.960

Um, well, that's what they were, so like when you, you know, so, so the, um... I didn't know any political activists when I went. I didn't know that I could be one, or that I may even be one, but I don't even know now that I was one, but, um, but in Hull I didn't know any, any, any, any women who would, you would call a political activist.

00:52:24.040 - 00:52:44.140

At the age of 19. I'm sorry, I interrupted you. No, it's okay, I was just thinking, what's it been like since then? And, and so, yeah, so this, uh, so not only the experience is completely different, as in camping by some nuclear weapons, but...

00:52:44.920 - 00:53:13.200

Let's go camping by some nuclear weapons. But also, at 19, meeting a whole load of women from entirely different backgrounds from all over the world. What was that like then? It was great. I, you know, I, I continue to tell people the stories, you know, and, you know, just little, little bits of people's conversation that,

00:53:13.200 - 00:53:53.460

that, that happened there. Um, and so, although you don't, you know, don't, you don't think about that all your life, do you? But I know that that obviously had quite a, it must have had quite an effect on me. Um. Do you mean as an education, or shaping your own view of the world? Both. I met, you know, I met, because at Greengate, who seemed to be the congregation point for

00:53:54.240 - 00:54:25.640

all the international visitors, um, you know, we were there for Australia and Denmark and Germany and, um, numerous other places, America, you know. And again, you don't think about, you don't think about what you're doing when you're doing those things, do you? It's only afterwards, or even 35 years later, you can go. That was quite incredible, really, to, um,

00:54:26.200 - 00:54:53.400

hear about, well, to see that it's important enough for them to want to be there. And, you know, take a little bit of away, of them away with you. Did you find things like, I mean, I'm going to give them, you know, like you said, I didn't know, is that what we were, activists? Do we use that word? But, um, so, so there were more

00:54:53.400 - 00:55:23.400

things going on there than the nuclear disarmament. There was internationalism, there was, uh, animal rights, there was veganism. Did, yeah, so I, I know that I learned about the, the, uh, you know, the struggle for rights for Aboriginal people in Australia by talking to those women there. You know, it never occurred to me that to have the same thing happen in Australia as happened

00:55:23.400 - 00:55:53.900

in North America with the Native Americans. You know, it's just that sort of putting things in place that, uh, and, yeah, and everybody had their own thing, didn't they? And I suppose a lot of, um, everybody had their own thing. Everybody had their own thing that was mostly important to them. And then some of the, some of those other things, you know, became more important to other people

00:55:53.900 - 00:56:27.900

through being there and meeting other women and, you know, um, yeah. And for some way, some women, it might have just been women, you know, the struggle for women became more important because they, because they found themselves there doing this strange thing in the middle of their lives and,

00:56:28.600 - 00:56:52.500

you know, and then, and then beginning to realise how women's voices, you know, aren't heard, weren't heard. I think a lot of people's lives changed who were maybe a bit older than me. Mine changed even though I didn't know it was going to change because, you know, it was, it was, it was, it was, hadn't really become anything yet, but, uh, yeah, I think a lot of people's lives changed by,

00:56:52.600 - 00:57:13.800

by going. Do you think that went in both directions, that some women went there specifically because of solidarity with women or because they were lesbian, whereas others found that while they were there? Well, I can say that, I think that's probably true, but I haven't got any evidence to support it and that's just, you know, it's just like, it'll be inevitable, won't it?

00:57:17.460 - 00:57:44.320

Um, yeah, some women were, were definitely fighting that fight already and went because it was a, yeah, as with all activism, people are attracted to, uh, a place where their voice can be heard, their fight can be taken further. If you had a most vivid memory of being, of Greenham, what would it be?

00:57:56.320 - 00:58:20.900

I don't know. I suppose it, you know, I've talked about the, the bits that I've talked about, um, since then are the bits that, they're almost like photographs, aren't they? Once you've talked about them, they become more, you know, more evident, so you remember them more than others.

00:58:28.440 - 00:58:57.780

I, yeah, I don't know. I don't think there's anything that really, there's any, that's greater than anything else. Um, I know I loved being part of that community and being accepted into that family and all the things that go with it. One of the oddest things that I, um, that happened, I suppose,

00:58:57.780 - 00:59:28.800

was, um, I was taken in, I was arrested and taken into the base on my own and I think it was, like, the September time after I'd been there the previous winter and I was there for, like, a week or a fortnight and I was just, you know, probably just went for a wander on my own, went up to the gate and where we'd, where we'd cut the holes in the fence, they just sort of

00:59:28.800 - 00:59:52.900

stuck it back together again. Um, you know, they used to patch it back together again with little metal clips and on the, on the actual gate, um, where it was sort of a harder fence rather than just the chain link, they used these little, just, just a little bend of, like, a U-shaped piece of material, just crimped on really, and a lot of these were loose and so I was just standing up

00:59:52.900 - 01:00:17.780

there. I can't remember why, if I was just mooching around or if I'd gone because something was happening and I said, I'll go and have a listen. I sort of think I'd probably gone and said, I'll go and have a listen, they won't take any notice of me. And, um, so I was just playing with these bits of, bits of fence and they were pinging off because they weren't really on

01:00:17.780 - 01:00:42.740

properly. They were on the bits, you know, the, the loose bits of fence and so they were just sort of, you know, so they'd fall to the tarmac with a tinkle, you know, so a few bits of tinkling metal fall into the ground. And, uh, and I wasn't on my own, so at some point I was joined by other people and it was obviously some sort of conversation about criminal damage going on.

01:00:42.820 - 01:01:08.160

Well, criminal damage, it's not even attached to the fence, you know, typical, just so I'll just have an argument, you know, me, not them. And, um, not the, not those on the inside, not the military police, anyway. Uh, I remember somebody saying, oh, let's just go for a little walk. And, um, so I was sort of taken by some, you know, surrounded by women. He's like, let's

01:01:08.160 - 01:01:30.080

just go for a little walk. And we sort of headed away from the gate and they came out and arrested me and took me in the base. So nothing had happened. Nobody caught anything, nobody, you know, but I was in the base on my own for nothing really, you know, just, just for nothing. And I was just sort of, um, thinking, I don't know what I'm going to do now, but I've got to try

01:01:30.080 - 01:02:02.000

and work out what to do. Cause I'd, when I'd been arrested in the previous winter, like three times, I think I'd used three different names. And if I just chose off the top of my head, I was bound to choose one of those again. Um, and just like, oh, I'll hell break loose at that point. Um, so I sat there on the floor, uh, for a while, I said, I don't have to tell you this. I don't

01:02:02.000 - 01:02:25.580

have to tell you that, you know, just refused to speak to anybody really for quite a long time. And eventually they said, well, you do have to tell us your date of birth because if you're underage, then, you know, then da, da, da, da, da, da. And I was like, okay, well I can get out of this then by, by using my own name and proving it. Yeah, I've got to prove what I was, but if

01:02:25.580 - 01:02:53.960

they checked up, they could find out that I wasn't underage if I use my own name. So, you know, six hours later or something, you know, we work out what the problem is here. Cause I look like I'm 16 presumably at the age of 20 or whatever. So, um, or 19. So yeah. So it's quite an interesting story for me because it was the only time I was totally on my own thinking,

01:02:55.140 - 01:03:16.180

how do I get out of this one? And so that's what I did. And I can't, I can't even remember being let out. I can't remember. Maybe they took me out out of the main gate. I probably did have to go out of the main gate. So when the women said, let's go for a little walk, they could see what was happening. They

01:03:16.180 - 01:03:35.860

were, they could see that they were twitching on the other side and they were going to, you know, it was fairly obvious to all of us that nothing was happening really. I wasn't creating, I wasn't criminal damage, but, but I think it might have been Zol actually, one of the Aussies. But they were trying to walk you away from them arresting you.

01:03:36.020 - 01:03:49.140

But I probably stayed too long. I probably didn't think it was going to happen. And others were, yeah, we just sort of said, okay, let's go for a little walk now. And they would have just like, you know, stuck me in somebody's bender out the way, but we didn't get far enough away.

01:03:52.560 - 01:04:18.620

So, so that's a little story that I, you know, I don't know what the, I don't know what the moral of the story is or anything, but yeah, my automatic reaction to just sort of say, you know, Fiona McLeod or whatever, you know, it's like, no, that's, so be yourself because actually I knew that there was no record against my name. And if you gave a second, if you got done for

01:04:18.620 - 01:04:41.200

a second, then you would, then yeah, I may have to go to court. It might keep me longer. So from leaving the next morning, somebody who turned up not knowing the rules, you had now learnt the rules of how to talk to the police and what to tell them and what not to tell them. And how did that all come about? Did you prepare before actions or did you just learn it on the

01:04:41.200 - 01:05:04.700

hoof? I don't think we ever had a conversation about whether or not you gave your own name, but on the, I remember on a mass action when lots and lots of people were being arrested and we were all taken up to the Newbury race course because there was nowhere to put everybody. And so we were all sort of, you know, corralled in various different rooms and then

01:05:04.700 - 01:05:30.760

having your photo taken and all this sort of stuff. And then I was thinking, and actually, yeah, I learned by my errors really. You know, I remember saying to somebody, by the way, my name's this, but talking to them with the name that I knew them by, you know, so do you know what I mean? It's like, oh, I've just, you know, used your camp name and

01:05:30.760 - 01:06:00.980

you may be giving them an entirely different name. And that's, don't tell them. Exactly. And it wasn't very loud, but you know, it was, it was give you a look. Yeah. Dumb man's in handcuffs. And yeah. So from telling them being like, I have no idea how to do, you know, how this works. Yeah.

01:06:04.560 - 01:06:30.800

Yeah. Being in the back of a Black Mariah in handcuffs, banging, making as much noise as possible, banging the cuffs against the thing. Oh dear. And what did the parents make of all this then? Because this is a different level up from just going to a camp, isn't it? Getting arrested and. Yeah, I still think it was okay. Never got the feeling that it wasn't okay.

01:06:30.980 - 01:06:59.140

Although I've been left at the beginning of 84, I went to get, I went to go and do, do some work and, you know, do a job. And I think that was definitely a, well, when are you going to get a job, you know? And it seemed like a good idea because I think if I thought if I went back to camp, I would probably end up, it's my nature to want to get stuck in. So therefore, I probably

01:06:59.140 - 01:07:20.060

would have been arrested more and I probably would have then ended up in court. And I didn't really have any plan as to how that would have, you know, what happens next on that one really. Did that feel like it was time to go before you ended up in prison? I think, I mean, that was what I was using either as an excuse

01:07:20.660 - 01:07:45.180

or, or the reason to stay away for a bit. Yeah, I did think I needed to stay away for a bit so I didn't end up in prison, but I don't know. He thought, yeah. And did it feel like, so maybe work was coming along that hadn't been coming along and

01:07:46.900 - 01:08:14.940

well, I went to work in an outdoor centre, so it was another, running away to another little world. Did you feel like, I think at home was, you can't just stay on the door all the time, what are you going to do? You know, what are you going to do? And so if it wasn't, if I wasn't going back to Greenham, you know, what were you going to do?

01:08:16.940 - 01:08:46.720

And if, yeah, I think the, the, the, the encouragement was to get a job of some sort and I couldn't do, do anything, you know. Worked, sat, sat the job in a bakery, you know. There was no way I was going to fit into that little box of, working in a shop or anything, you know, that at home would suggest would be a work.

01:08:47.720 - 01:09:16.540

Working hall would be like working in a shop or working in a factory. So, yeah, went to work for outdoor holiday company. And when you left Greenham, did you feel like you were leaving Greenham or? I don't think so, no. No. And so, you know, going back to stay for like a week or a couple of weeks, you know, felt like going home.

01:09:17.660 - 01:09:45.660

And it was really important to do it and I didn't, I don't think I did it enough. But I don't know why I didn't feel like, maybe because the missile was there, you know, maybe it was like, well, it's, you know, we were trying, we were there to try and stop them. And so it didn't feel like that was

01:09:45.660 - 01:10:17.280

the, actually I don't know. I have no idea where I didn't think of going back to stay for longer after that, because the following winter was also on the door. So, you know, I went back with, I took somebody who I'd met in the summer whilst I was working in the outdoor world and, um, yeah, I don't know. I don't know why it felt like,

01:10:19.460 - 01:10:48.140

well, it didn't feel like the important thing to do anymore. Was, I've seen the photos of you in the, in the group. With Joan. Um, did it, do you look back and think, I mean, it's kind of a bit extraordinary really, but was everything extraordinary? Yeah, I don't think I, you know, um, I didn't know how extraordinary

01:10:48.140 - 01:11:13.340

that was then. And that's, you know, that's the end, that's the whole thing, isn't it? It's like, I mean, it's like, well, it was extraordinary, as in it's out of the ordinary, but I didn't know that. Um, other people knew more about Joan Byers than I did, I'm sure. So it felt more, it probably felt more, um, amazing for them at that point than it did for me. Um,

01:11:20.540 - 01:11:51.980

you know, it was as important to talk to the striking miners' wives who'd come from, you know, their community in Yorkshire with donations when we knew that they had no money, and they were, they were bringing donations down to, to us, because they'd been on strike for months on end. You know, that, that, that sort of, that felt more or as, um, important and,

01:11:52.780 - 01:12:19.220

uh, you know, to, to celebrate as some musician come in singing songs with us. I wish I could remember what she sang. I suppose it's fairly predictable, isn't it, really? We probably all sang We Shall Overcome together. If you look back either from a big political perspective or

01:12:19.820 - 01:12:51.300

just in relation to your own life, what do you think the legacy of Greenham is? Is there any, I mean, do you think that, is there a legacy? Do you think there are things happening now? Do you think we've lost sight of it because we haven't been watching it, or? I think there's all sorts of, you know, I think if you look, there's all sorts of threads,

01:12:51.500 - 01:13:30.180

aren't there? I'm, you know, I have only looked at my life very recently as to what, you know, what effect it has had on it, and I think it's, you know, it's probably pretty massive. It's so very close to us here. We've got the anti-fracking site at PNR, and the fight against fracking in Lancashire has been led by women, and it's not women only, but, you know,

01:13:30.280 - 01:13:59.820

they, they sort of identified themselves as the nanas, and, you know, started wearing tabards, and, you know, there's got to be some parallel there to what happened before, to go, like, well, you know, we can do this, and we can do it. It's not a, it's not the first time this fight's been had, and we know it can be effective, and, yeah, there's got to be a parallel,

01:13:59.820 - 01:14:27.400

and that's great, because it gives, you know, it gave them the confidence to, to say, yeah, we're going to do it. I think if it was a women-only camp, I think there were things that have happened that may, may not have happened had it been women-only set up, but the women are leading it, definitely, and that's really good.

01:14:29.060 - 01:14:55.960

So, yeah, 35 years later, well, 30 years later, there's still the, the, the identifiable things that you can say, this may have been different had that not happened. I read something recently about how many times the, Emily Pankhurst put,

01:14:56.440 - 01:15:28.020

tried to get the law changed, and, and how, in relation to her life, she'd been her whole life doing it, and, and so she was in her 50s or whatever, which is the same kind of age as 19-year-olds of Greenham are now, and I don't know where I'm going with that, really, but just, just thinking about the, what, the questioning about legacy, and just, well,

01:15:28.100 - 01:15:55.280

how does legacy actually work? Is it some big thing that you can point to, or is it? I think for me, so I, I left there and went somewhere to do a job that, you know, ended up being an entirely different job. I was, you know, I was working in this outdoor centre, initially in the kitchens. I was supposed to do something else after the first six weeks, but

01:15:56.960 - 01:16:22.820

it was pointed out that there weren't any women instructors, and there were only men, and they asked me if I would be a woman instructor, a woman instructor, the female instructor. I was telling somebody this yesterday, and they wouldn't even dream of not having at least one woman within that team now in those environments.

01:16:26.140 - 01:16:56.060

So I was like, right, okay, yes. I wasn't highly qualified. I'd had to go all the things that, you know, that happened there. We did a bit of canoeing, and a bit of sailing, and a bit of archery, and, you know, it was just holidays for seven-year-olds upwards. So it wasn't to any great standard. So I was like, yeah, I'll do that. So, and it felt like I

01:16:59.740 - 01:17:31.580

took a lot of stick doing that, taking that job on. I then went into a, you know, sailing on bigger, bigger boats world, and there weren't many women doing those things, and I took a lot of stick there, and, you know, so, yeah, I suspect I wouldn't have put up with some of that stick, or maybe even fought back as hard as I had done had I not had the education I had at Greenham.

01:17:32.960 - 01:18:00.460

Maybe never would have, you know, thought I could do it, or, well, yeah, just not said yes, I suspect, you know. And you ended up sailing? Across the Atlantic. Well, yeah, and skippering, yeah, yachts, taking young people sailing, yeah. But I went to a job interview, and I was asked if I could use a spanner.

01:18:02.240 - 01:18:25.420

You know, in 1992, maybe, you know, I still just, I was just as speechless as I am now, you know. And can you use a spanner? On your head? On your head, absolutely.

01:18:27.240 - 01:18:59.180

Boat cutter, I'm quite good with a boat cutter, sir. Boat cutters, yeah. And the whole, so then my life has gone on to be filled with women, really. Um, in 1996, somebody suggested that I joined a women's community choir.

01:18:59.820 - 01:19:29.160

I won't get through this without crying. Okay. Um, and so I went to join this women's community choir, and I've described the feeling of, uh, of going there. Um, but it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

01:19:29.160 - 01:19:58.500

it's coming home. And, uh, it's only because we've been talking about this, well, and the photos of Joan Baez that have appeared, and then come talking to other, I'm now connected with some of the other people in the photos, that when, the feeling of coming home, of joining this choir, wasn't about singing, as much as it was about being with women.

01:20:02.200 - 01:20:30.800

And we did sing a lot, you know, and we probably even, you know, that women's group in South Hampton, we probably sang some of the songs, you know, or a song that I'd sung with women in So, I did that for six months, and then moved away, you know, it was only once a month thing, so it was like, you know, just found that thing, it was like, whoa, and now I've got to go away

01:20:30.800 - 01:20:58.080

from it. So, started a women's choir here, which still exists. And here is in Lancashire. And it's not just one women's choir, is it? Well, it's the only one that's specifically women, you know, so yeah, so,

01:20:58.540 - 01:21:22.720

yeah, I insisted. When I met another person who wanted to sing, and we ended up with four people, because she knew some others, and I was new. So, we just started on our own, because the one that was maybe happening didn't, you know, it folded. So, we just started on our own, but it's got to be women, and

01:21:22.720 - 01:21:53.820

you know, somebody else said, well, maybe it doesn't, and I said, no, no, it does, it does have to be women. And yeah, so that started in 1997, and it's now 2019, and it's still going, and I've been running it for the last 16 years of that time, probably. Yeah, and it is my, you know, so now that is my job, I lead community choirs, I do other

01:21:54.420 - 01:22:31.140

musical things, but that's a big part of my life, and it may not have been like that, had I not got in common, you know, because that feeling of that importance of that bunch of women, you know, and how that feels together when you sing together, and you just commune together once a week, and you know, it's really good for everybody. And your community choir goes

01:22:31.140 - 01:22:56.980

and sings at all sorts of... Yeah, we turn out for various charity do's, and fundraisers, and I mean, it's not particularly to perform, it's all about going home feeling better than you did when you came out, when you've been together for a couple of hours in the evening, but it's not, it's political in its own way, but it's not

01:23:00.440 - 01:23:25.220

purely there for singing at rallies. But you do sing at rallies. Well, yeah, I've now got started a political choir that is also, at the moment, all women, but yeah, we turn out and we go and sing at demonstrations, and down at Preston New Road, and for the guys who went to prison

01:23:27.520 - 01:23:54.500

at the Antifracking site. So yeah, so it has its own little rebellion still going on, through song. Am I allowed to say? You can't kill the spirit. I can't kill the spirit. Yeah, you can't kill the spirit. I wonder if it will ever not go on and on and on,

01:23:54.620 - 01:24:19.380

and when will I ever be allowed to stop? It sounds like I'm talking about that all in a very flat, negative way, but That is a song that goes on and on and on. It kind of has its own problem built into it, doesn't it? Yeah.

01:24:24.620 - 01:24:54.200

But I don't think that's what you were saying. No, I was saying, I'm saying the whole thing about leading the choirs, and the fact that I might not have ever done that, had I not done what I did in 1983. That's an extraordinary thing as well. I don't know that it is, but people tell me regularly how great it is, and that without me it wouldn't be

01:24:54.200 - 01:25:29.940

there, and it would never have been as it is, because they weren't as clear about what it needed to be, and it certainly wouldn't still be there if it wasn't for me. So yeah, I have to say yeah, it is great. And it's community women, and they look after each other, and singing's the thing that brings them together, but it's about many other things. So I don't know, I always find

01:25:29.940 - 01:26:10.560

legacy a bit of a funny thing. It's like, what does it really mean? What is the legacy of? So I reconnected with Silver, one of the Aussies, via Facebook. Didn't have to write a letter to Tasmania. I could send a message to somebody, and a picture of Joan Byers, and both she and I on it, saying, are you the same Silver Moon that's on this picture? And of course she was. And

01:26:14.960 - 01:26:44.840

the Extinction Rebellion people have just, they've got a song going out called Emergency, Climate Emergency, and it's been sent out to me through the Natural Voice Network. A woman who wrote it came to our gathering and said, you know, here it is. If you want it, teach it to your singers, and if they are party to joining in the Extinction Rebellion

01:26:46.640 - 01:27:11.940

gatherings, protests, whatever, you know, here it is. Let's just have it out there. And Silver had to move out of her house because of the recent fires in Tasmania, and so she didn't know if her house was still going to be there when she got back, and, you know, they had to, yeah. So I sent her this song, because, you know, there's a recording

01:27:11.940 - 01:27:38.360

of it, and it's available, and Blythe Pepino wrote it, doesn't want anything for it, it's just like, sing it. And so I sent her it, and I said, you know, you may be, this is happening, you may find it, you know, you may know people who want it. And so she sent me a message back, she said, yeah, it's great, I've sent it on to the important people in the know. So like, you know,

01:27:39.320 - 01:28:06.680

across the world, it's now, yeah, this song from here has gone out there and no doubt will travel further. But I felt like, you know, that wouldn't be there, would it? You know, those connections, so felt like a quite a good thing to do, because, well, partly I thought of Silver,

01:28:06.760 - 01:28:28.820

because there's a line in the song that says, yeah, you know, your houses are all on fire, you know, so it was, yeah, felt like it was talking about her, so. There you go, that's some of the legacy. You know, it's the same old planet.

01:28:29.200 - 01:28:53.260

Same old planet, everybody's still fighting, some fight over the, or is it the same wall? Kettle? Or we tend the fire? Sing a song?

01:28:54.460 - 01:28:57.140

On which note? Thank you very much.