00:00:00.000 - 00:00:28.680

Could you just start, and we'll start with you Annie, but the same question to both of you. What first took you to Greenham? Why did you go there? Well, actually it wasn't Greenham that was my initial attraction. What happened was I was working for Harrods as a beauty therapist and I was in Camberley Town Centre. I bumped into

00:00:28.680 - 00:00:55.520

an old friend of mine called Stephanie Tunmore, who I think now works for Greenpeace, but I bumped into her and we started chatting and she started talking about how she had joined an organisation called Camberley CND and I didn't have a clue what she was talking about so I asked her what she meant and she explained that it was the campaign for nuclear disarmament and

00:00:55.520 - 00:01:27.360

when she said that there was something about the words that resonated with me. It felt like a right thing to be doing, to be disarming from nuclear weapons. So I turned up at a local Camberley CND meeting and I remember that when I went I was in my navy blue pleated skirt and at that time in the 80s blazers were very fashionable for women with my gold heeled shoes on

00:01:28.300 - 00:02:00.580

and there were all these people sitting without any socks on and sandals and looking in my opinion what looked a bit like a bunch of hippies so I was quite sort of judgmental because they were people that didn't look like me but there was a woman who was chairing the meeting and at the time I remember feeling so impressed by this woman because she just held the group

00:02:00.580 - 00:02:27.560

and was very gentle and very inquiring of other people in the group and I didn't quite know who she was, I just thought she was quite an impressive woman and I noticed this man sitting next to her and what happened was it turned out that those two people, this woman chairing the meeting and this man sitting next to her, was someone called Marie Knowles and her husband John

00:02:28.200 - 00:03:01.180

and I thought I thought it was quite interesting at that time that it was her that was chairing I really liked that. Anyway what happened was that bunch of people turned out to be such a delightful bunch of people and John and Marie in particular were very welcoming, very challenging in their thoughts about things and I ended up being, I suppose I had the experience of

00:03:01.980 - 00:03:29.180

questioning myself in a way that I hadn't questioned myself before about the world, about politics, about being in the world as a woman. Anyway what happened was having become part of that Camberley CND movement we were protesting, we were demonstrating, we were doing things like there was a nuclear bunker that had apparently been built under the civic hall in

00:03:29.380 - 00:03:56.340

Camberley, so we went on a protest and chained ourselves to the railings, I think we were we were dressed as suffragettes or something but we would do things like you know be in the town centre handing out leaflets, trying to raise people's awareness around the campaign for nuclear disarmament and what happened in the process of all of this was that the discussion was very

00:03:56.340 - 00:04:30.540

stimulating and got me thinking about lots of different things and when eventually we ended up going to Greenham it was not immediate, it was on top of other demonstrations and being part of what became a woman's consciousness raising group in Camberley that was an offshoot of Camberley CND. So for me when I think of Greenham it's not just about my experiences

00:04:30.540 - 00:04:59.640

at Greenham Common as a protester, it was also about my experience of of consciousness raising around what it meant to be a woman and political systems really, it introduced me to the idea of systems thinking and how everything has an impact, how everything has a ripple effect, how there is such a thing as the butterfly effect and what I really, what I do

00:04:59.640 - 00:05:32.580

remember thinking at the time was I loved that feeling of being part of a movement where people all over the world were demonstrating about this single issue, that felt enormously important to me, it wasn't just us in Camberley CND, it wasn't just us in this country, I was part of a global movement that was about saying no, this is wrong, I want my voice to be heard because this is wrong.

00:05:33.640 - 00:06:04.340

So in relation to Greenham I can remember the first time I went to Greenham you know I was I was so prejudiced, I was so naive, I thought oh my god what's it going to be like because I might meet lesbians, what was I going to do, what was I going to do if I met a lesbian and also I might be arrested or something. So what happened was before we ended up going on any sort

00:06:04.340 - 00:06:29.260

of demonstrations, I remember one particular weekend, I can't remember if I'd been to Greenham at that stage or not, but what stands out in my memory was there was one particular weekend and it was called an NVDA workshop that was over the course of a weekend. NVDA, I didn't have a clue what that meant, but of course it stands for non-violent direct action and again just the

00:06:29.260 - 00:07:03.600

notion of that really appealed to me. So I went to this workshop, I was still working at Harrods as a beauty therapist on the top floor at the time, and I went to this workshop and it completely blew my mind. From the point of view it opened me up to other possibilities, both politically and personally. It opened me up to new ideas, it gave me the opportunity to reflect on my own behaviour,

00:07:04.280 - 00:07:34.980

on how I interacted with other people, how I experienced other people. It opened me up to, actually, as a woman, how I behaved differently to men and how useful was that to me. Why did I behave differently? So it opened me up on lots of different levels. So by the time I went to Greenham it was almost like I'd had a background, I'd had an experience, I'd had some sort of education

00:07:35.880 - 00:08:03.320

in opening my mind to new experience and new ideas that were not conventional. You know, I was a disco diva, I used to hang out in nightclubs, you know, dancing around my handbag with my lipstick and false eyelashes on, you know, there I was with my high heels and, you know, dancing to Motown. This was a completely new experience for me and when I actually went to

00:08:03.320 - 00:08:35.620

Greenham I laugh because I still wore my pearl earrings. What I didn't do was kind of wear makeup in the same way. I can remember taking my nail varnish off because somehow it didn't seem the right thing to do to have my nail varnish on. So it was almost as if at one point I was living this parallel life wearing my, you know, my dungarees or my, there was a kind of all-in-one

00:08:35.620 - 00:08:59.360

suit, what were they called? Yeah, so there I was in my turquoise boiler suit with my rainbow badges with my hair up and my pearl earrings on and maybe a little bit of eyeliner that was, you know, quite subtle but no nail varnish because for me I was going through that whole process of what does it mean then? What does it mean to be a woman in the world? What does it mean to not be a

00:08:59.360 - 00:09:25.460

conservative with high heels and whatever else I thought it meant? You know, what's it like being in the world in a different kind of way? So at Greenham I remember having a conversation sitting around a campfire with a woman who was a lesbian and I didn't know she was a lesbian, it was only afterwards that I kind of found out. I can't remember how I found out but what,

00:09:25.580 - 00:09:51.140

you know, what really struck me was something about actually none of that stuff really in the greater scheme of things, I mean what does any of that stuff matter? It's an expression of how we are as women, you know, I was naive, I was what 24 or something, 25, there's lots I didn't know and what, you know, what that experience of Greenham gave me was an opportunity to learn

00:09:51.140 - 00:10:15.560

about myself and other people. I mean as I'm talking I'm thinking of all kinds of stories in my head, do you want me to continue or shall I stop here? Let's, yeah, this is a good, hold the stories because I want to hear them very much and let's, I want to follow up on, I've got a couple of things I'd like to ask you from what you've said as well, so let's put that first

00:10:15.560 - 00:10:51.280

question over to Margaret and, but yeah, we're not done. It's great, yeah, this is great, it's lovely. Okay, Margaret, what took you, how did you arrive at Greenham? What took you to Greenham? I arrived at Greenham as I was about 35 I think at the time with two young children, married, middle class, camberley and my background had been that I was always against the bomb,

00:10:51.460 - 00:11:15.220

the bomb was a big thing and in our growing up there was this, Cuba was a big thing about what would happen, the nuclear, what bomb that could destroy us all and our older friends were beginning to say things like they weren't going to have children because they couldn't bring their children into such a terrible world, so we had a beginning of a consciousness as we

00:11:15.220 - 00:11:45.580

were growing up that there were terrible things going on and at our local youth club the leader said right, Aldermaston, we're all going on this march to Aldermaston and we thought it was the most exciting thing and we bought the CND badges and then our father, I was about 15 at the time and my father forbid us to go and threw our badges on the boiler, so that was my first

00:11:48.180 - 00:12:15.340

demonstration against authority I think, but I was gutted and I was really angry that we'd missed it because it just sounded so exciting. I'm not sure the politics really struck us but I remember always being against the bomb and against nuclear weapons and so CND was something we had kind of grown up with and it was this big hippie thing I suppose which struck us as being

00:12:15.340 - 00:12:46.600

well that's good. So not within your family? Not within the family, certainly not, no. I don't think my mother had an opinion because obviously what the father said went, but he was from, he'd been a prisoner of war in the, so I'm sure, so his take on this would have been very clearly one about protecting his family. He fought for security and he fought to protect us and so the

00:12:46.600 - 00:13:19.920

idea that we thought of, you know, banning our safety and it was absolutely outrageous but of course we were 15 so hey, so we never went on the Aldermaston marches, not until a lot later and then being in Camberley I heard through a friend about CND, about the Camberley group and so I joined with her and it was really so different

00:13:19.920 - 00:13:47.000

to anything I'd ever experienced because having been on various committees like, you know, the political, the Liberals and Liberal Democrats and then in, oh the school ones, the Board of Trustees or parent committees. Oh the parent teacher, the PTA, those associate, those what have you, where we had our little committee meetings and our agendas

00:13:47.560 - 00:14:15.680

and these meetings just blew the whole thing apart because they were so equal and I think it was the equality that really, really struck me. The fact that everybody's view was encouraged and welcomed, whatever it was, and everybody, I wasn't expected to take the goddamn minutes which is something that invariably, if you didn't wear a hat you ended up making the tea

00:14:15.680 - 00:14:46.220

or taking the minutes. If you wore a hat that meant you were a bit more important as a woman so there was that sort of hierarchy that just didn't exist and that was amazing. So different people led it but on that occasion it was Marie Knowles and it was so equal and everybody sat in a circle, nobody deferred to anybody else and it was just

00:14:47.000 - 00:15:15.000

glorious, absolutely glorious because it was so unlike anything I'd ever experienced and yeah I felt a bit like a sort of middle-class misfit to a certain extent because on the whole everybody was a lot younger than me and so I felt a bit old and also a bit dowdy because they all looked gloriously hippie. Well in a way I thought these are my people

00:15:16.760 - 00:15:37.660

because having been a sort of a hard-working hippie it just seemed like coming home to me, it was absolutely wonderful and the way it was so equal and everybody chipped in, everybody worked together, I loved it. So that was, that's how I joined and of course it went on from there. So what were your first, very first impressions of getting to the actual

00:15:37.660 - 00:16:09.840

Greenham Common camp? Right, the first time we went was when, the first time I went was a night when the women had been arrested and they all gradually came back to the camp during the day and they were tired, very tired, and so we would go in response to that and guard them for the night. So it was, we were guarding the Greenham women so they could sleep because they would,

00:16:09.920 - 00:16:35.040

because they would, there were often occasions when they were harassed either by local people or by the guards inside so they couldn't just sleep. Do you know what sort of form the harassment took? Well things like people would draw up, I remember one, I remember specifically one thing that happened and that was a motorbike drew up quite close and there were two guys sitting on

00:16:35.040 - 00:17:00.340

this motorbike and suddenly it went very still in the camp and they were watching and, and then it stiffened, a guy put his hand in his pocket and everybody stiffened and then they just, he just lit a fag and off they drove and I said what was that about and they said well you just never know, you never know what they're going to do, whether it's just somebody interested in

00:17:00.340 - 00:17:26.540

what's going on and just a sightseer or whether that's a bomb in his pocket and he's going to chuck it at you or whether you just didn't, they just did not know what was going to happen or whether they'd be attacked in the night and that sort of thing. So they were so brave those women and I felt in a way like we were the, we were the frauds because we didn't stay, we didn't

00:17:26.540 - 00:17:54.120

live there, we lived near enough so we could visit and so we used to go in response to when they needed a hand and also on the food rotas as well, especially in winter when they could do with some nice hot food. So, so we really got into it in that way and obviously the big demos and so we visited them very frequently but those women who lived there were amazing and the things they'd

00:17:54.120 - 00:18:17.380

sacrificed as well to be there, just extraordinary, so they were so brave and so to be able to just go there and support them was brilliant. Did you do, did you do, is that sort of night watch, is that called night watch, is that, did you do those together, those sort of, those sort of things? Yeah, yes, yeah, in fact that was the first time I really got to know Annie

00:18:18.860 - 00:18:48.340

because that was on my first time and it was freezing wasn't it, a very cold night and I don't think it was your first time, I can't quite remember. I can't remember. But Annie had so many clothes on, she, she was absolutely struggling to walk and she, and she sort of swung over and she says, it feels like I've got this gigantic sanitary towel on

00:18:50.380 - 00:19:16.300

and we got chatting, we were on these camp chairs, so garden chairs and we got chatting and I can remember Annie saying at one point, because she was so glamorous and gorgeous, I felt completely out of her league, so I was a bit in awe of her because we really were a mixed bunch of people and he was so glamorous and such a gorgeous personality and then she, she said something,

00:19:16.500 - 00:19:38.240

I asked her a question, she said, oh that's a long story and I just said, oh well we've got all night and so we sat and talked for a lot of the night and then we became very good friends and it was a bit like that with everybody, the connections that you made and so, you know, some of my best friends are my Greenland friends from 35 years ago.

00:19:38.540 - 00:19:50.020

That's amazing. Yeah, absolutely brilliant. Do you have a, what are your memories of those, those sort of nights? Well I think the night that Margaret's describing, I think my, my memory is that

00:19:50.600 - 00:20:17.060

I, I don't know if it was part of a night watch or whether it was part of a demo where we were there for the weekend because we stayed overnight. I remember staying overnight and the weather wasn't very good and it was quite rainy and I wasn't an outdoor kind of girl, you know, I, I was more kind of gold lame really than, than kind of waterproofs so what happened was I decided to

00:20:17.060 - 00:20:43.960

buy some gear to wear for this weekend when I was going to be out, out in the fresh air, shall we say, and I, of course I didn't know what to buy so I ended up buying this, this bright yellow pair of waterproof trousers or well they weren't really waterproof as such, they were kind of plastic trousers with this, this bright yellow plastic jacket to go with it

00:20:43.960 - 00:21:09.200

that had a hood and I think it was one of those sorts of things if you'd been caught in a shower or a rainstorm it would have probably been very effective but then of course what you do is you take it off and you're kind of in the clothes underneath but it was really cold and I thought well rather than get undressed inside the tent I could just sleep in this bright yellow suit,

00:21:09.340 - 00:21:32.460

I looked a bit like a banana as it was, I thought I could just sleep in it that'll be, that'll be good but of course I, because I, I was unfamiliar with this kind of stuff, what happened was having slept in it I then woke up completely soaking wet because of course I'd been perspiring all night so then it was raining outside and I was wet inside so it

00:21:32.460 - 00:21:59.020

wasn't a particularly comfortable weekend, I think you've got a photograph of that actually haven't you? We have photographs of the outfit, we do, I don't think I can get those for the archive but yeah I mean I remember, I can almost still remember the smell of the wood smoke actually that you know kind of people sitting around campfires just talking about stuff and regards

00:21:59.020 - 00:22:25.540

to the night watch we had something called a telephone tree, we had something called cruise watch as well which was a telephone tree that would alert people as to when the cruise missiles would come out of the base and be transported around the country so if that was going to happen we'd then get a call and we'd whiz over there and it could be at night or you know we

00:22:25.540 - 00:22:51.300

might go if we thought it was going to be expected and that kind of stuff and I remember one particular night it was in response to the cruise watch call we all went over there and were sitting there during the night and we realised that if anything happened and we were all sitting at the camp or whatever gate we were at that we wouldn't be able to, how would we alert people that

00:22:51.300 - 00:23:27.120

the convoy had come out or whatever so I took it upon myself in my yellow banana suit to hide in the bushes up the road all night, I don't quite know what I thought I was going to do in my head I was like some sort of SAS kind of ninja, in my head I was going to go and find a phone box because of course it was you know pre-mobile phones I was going to go and

00:23:27.120 - 00:23:53.480

find a phone box made sure I had some change I was going to find a so that I could then alert the rest of the telephone tree so that night I can remember looking longingly you know down the road at people sitting around the campfire having a you know an interesting time talking to each other and there was me further up the road hiding in a ditch all night just in case this convoy appeared

00:23:53.480 - 00:24:23.200

and it was it was quite it was quite an interesting experience because I realised how ill-equipped I was how this wasn't my life and I was also feeling quite brave in this process you know this was this was going to be my moment you know to really do something important for the peace movement. Thankfully nothing happened and after about it must have got to about

00:24:23.200 - 00:24:48.160

five o'clock in the morning or something I then kind of I think it started to get light and I made my way back to the to the camp itself but but what you were saying Margaret about night watches I can remember what we would do is we would plan to go to do a night watch and yeah that the purpose was as a supportive gesture to to those women but I can equally

00:24:49.440 - 00:25:15.660

remember feeling that that what I was doing was really important it felt really important to kind of hold the fort to for those women to get some sleep and I felt like a you know a bit of a part timer but also that sense that actually this is what I can contribute I you know I I wasn't in a position in my life to go and do what they were doing and if I'm honest I don't know if I had it

00:25:15.660 - 00:25:38.280

in me I don't know if I would have been able to do it but what was important was that sense of actually I am doing what I can and I want to be involved and I want to do what I can according to what able you know it is that I'm able to do yeah are you happy to tell us a little bit about were you involved in cruise watch Margaret yes could you tell us a bit more about

00:25:38.280 - 00:26:03.280

it and your experience of it because what was the I was interested what the point of it what was it would be trying to draw attention to I think we would the whole point of the cruise missiles coming out was that they would disappear melt into the countryside and so that so the Russians wouldn't know where they were which we thought was hysterical because obviously these vast

00:26:03.940 - 00:26:31.460

heavy convoys these enormous trucks would suddenly roar out of the gates that's no and all the roads around Newbury all around Greenham Common they were the best roads in the country they they were small roads but they were magnificent and they were probably the best ever that they they were they were built for these for these convoys to rush out of Greenham

00:26:31.980 - 00:26:59.160

um and so the point of cruise watch uh so if if we weren't if if the women hadn't been arrested and we weren't looking after the women then cruise watch would happen and we'd all go out and then we'd follow them to show that they couldn't just vanish into the countryside and this was when the men liked to get involved because um it was a bit more exciting

00:27:00.080 - 00:27:23.960

and because we took we rather felt that Greenham was ours women that it was a women's protest um and I think the men felt a bit miffed occasionally so they would come out with their cars bristling with antennae to to follow the signals of where it was going to be and they would come and report to us well we're off there we're off there there's nothing we go okay whatever

00:27:23.960 - 00:27:53.220

you like and off they'd go um so it was sort of quite exciting in a way um and I remember on one occasion that we we were suddenly told oh we all need to go to Longmore um oh I remember that yes it was which was peculiar because my father um was in the arm when we were in when my dad was in the army that was the first place I remember um living in Longmore camp and so I thought right

00:27:53.220 - 00:28:21.100

we're off to Longmore okay so we drove to Longmore and um and when we got there there was nothing much to see and they denied all knowledge but there were a whole gang I mean there were hundreds of us hundreds of people there and this guy tried to get us into order the work that the military police he came out to talk to women and what have you and and I told him oh I said I used

00:28:21.100 - 00:28:47.960

to live here and yeah my father was was our first officer's quarters down there etc and he went oh will you act a spokesperson so I said oh no no no no we don't do that and he says well no if you could just act a spokesperson that would be terribly helpful and and it was the funniest thing because we just thought we don't do that like I'm gonna say I'm your spokesperson everyone

00:28:47.960 - 00:29:19.360

just talk to me yeah right so was that absolutely not how Greenham worked there was no sort was it a very lateral organisation how did you it was very mixed because I think um it was it did attract some quite different kinds of personalities and so it wasn't the most smooth running of camps because lots of personalities would have had different ideas about what they were there for

00:29:19.360 - 00:29:46.880

um so uh yeah there would and there were people unfortunately it also does attract people with mental health issues who tended to need looking after more than anything uh but everybody it was such a melting pot of people which was I think the diversity was one of its strengths because women from any background ended up there and uh I don't believe there were judgments made there may have

00:29:46.880 - 00:30:14.920

been I don't know I never felt judged on what I look like or what I sounded like or anything like that we were just all there to muck in I think and it was to to make a point that you know the women are showing the people that this is where the bombs are this is where the bombs live and we're not having it um and a lot later in life I can remember a young person saying to me well what

00:30:14.920 - 00:30:42.700

was the point what a waste of what so I said well we got rid of the bombs they said no you didn't yeah we did green and women got rid of the bombs they went they said no that has nothing to do with you I said do you honestly think that people's awareness would have been raised if the green and women hadn't been there if all those women hadn't gone and been a thorn in the flesh of those people

00:30:43.340 - 00:31:09.840

and all the rumors about them etc etc you know for god's sake why were they so scared of us they had the bombs and we were a bunch of really awkward women who were just pointing out that that's where the bombs were and we didn't want them there so it's quite extraordinary thank you that is extraordinary I'm beautifully put it's really lovely I'm I'm thinking about

00:31:09.840 - 00:31:39.680

what you were saying about judgments and I you know my experience was that I yes I didn't feel judged at all at Greenham by the women there was a strong sense of unity a sense we're all here for a purpose we all know what we're here for we're welcoming of each other and I I can remember being at the base and people would put ribbons and pieces of wool or pictures on the fence

00:31:39.840 - 00:32:05.700

to say I was here and you know I can remember looking at pictures of tiny children and grandmothers and families and that's that's what it was all about it was it was about this is humanity this is the face of humanity this is why we're here we want we want to protect the the world we live in and the judgment that I used to be aware of was was particularly with

00:32:05.700 - 00:32:34.540

older people particularly with my mother's friends they all had an opinion my family had an opinion it was as if I was not only doing something slightly eccentric but it was wrong what I was doing was really wrong because not only was I protesting against something politically but I was also protesting against and serving as a bad example as to what it meant to be a decent

00:32:34.540 - 00:33:12.860

young woman what I was doing wasn't decent who did I think I was did I what was I one of those women that had burnt my bra ho ho ho and the I think the the the argument about the peace movement and the argument around feminism manifested at that time because certainly I very much identified with much of what was being said by radical feminism it made perfect sense to me actually

00:33:12.860 - 00:33:39.620

we do live in a patriarchy there is lots that we are unconscious of it's not until we start looking at what systems are in place what we believe about ourselves what we believe about men that we we can start to address that and Greenham was a place where where feminist politics was discussed and I can remember being judged harshly by people who were not involved

00:33:39.620 - 00:34:07.340

they would see it as odd it would almost be dirty you know it was it was it would almost be like I was doing something to hurt the rest of society when actually what for me what I was doing was doing something that was about equality about justice about non-violence because the conclusion I reached was that feminism for me and I still feel the same now for me feminism goes hand in

00:34:07.340 - 00:34:34.240

hand with non-violence and I know that there are feminists who would not agree with me on that level but for me that's what it means it means how I hold myself in the world how I interact with other people how I leave my footprint really that's certainly where it came from and without my experience of Greenham and talking about feminist politics in that context

00:34:34.240 - 00:35:00.260

without any men being there I don't think I would have had the freedom in any other context to to talk about it to thrash out ideas because the other thing that came out of that that was profoundly important to me was the women of Cambly CND created a feminist group a consciousness raising group and actually it was it was led by your mum she she got it going Marie yeah the

00:35:00.260 - 00:35:28.420

same Marie Knowles yeah the same Marie Knowles the same Marie Knowles that was the chair of yeah she she she kind of kind of suggested that actually what we could do is have this consciousness raising group which is which is what happened because you went to that didn't you Margaret I was rather on the edge of it because I was not quite so flexible because

00:35:28.420 - 00:35:59.860

having small children they were two and five at the time limited the scope of what I was able to do but I used to escape every so often and join in yes and they were it was and I ended up realising how very far behind I was in in in the respects of feminism I was at the hang green stage and it's not fair stage and most people were way beyond that I had a little way to go and so I

00:35:59.860 - 00:36:30.280

moved on enormously at least I feel I felt as if I did because I was made so welcome and it was just such a safe loving group to be with and and I agree with Annie that also it was a good example of the men doing the women's work while the women got on with the demonstrating so the women would go and they would be off and the men would look after the children do the cooking

00:36:30.840 - 00:36:56.760

generally take care of everything that was going on back at the home while the women went and demonstrated because Greenham was theirs and I really appreciated that the fact that they it wasn't hijacked there wasn't an attempt to say well we'll we'll do it tonight dears and but no so so there was a really really good feeling about that yeah

00:36:58.720 - 00:37:27.300

and in relation to the Canberra CND women's raising consciousness raising group it was eye-opening for me in the sense that we would talk about not any politics feminist politics we'd talk about kind of issues that felt really important whether it be sexism or pornography or racism you know what did that mean how did it manifest how were we being that

00:37:27.300 - 00:37:54.660

actually on some level was anti-racist or how were we internally sexist you know what were we carrying internally that was manifesting that in ways that we weren't aware of so so talking about all that stuff was really interesting as well and what I forgot to say was that NVDA workshop that non-violent direct action workshop that I did after I did that I went into Harrods on the

00:37:54.660 - 00:38:29.220

Monday morning and I handed my notice in because I realized that I didn't want to be part of propping up that that system on some level and the the what was I going to say the workshop prior to that I can remember I used to have I used to have Fridays off and sometimes we used to go we used to take food over so we'd go on the food run so we'd like make macaroni cheese or cauliflower

00:38:29.220 - 00:38:52.080

cheese and take it over for you know at lunch time and so on a Thursday night I used to take my nail varnish off so that I had no nail varnish when I went to Greenham and put my boiler suit on when we took the the food across and then I'd you know paint my nails back for Saturday morning so I was living this double life and I realized after that weekend that I could not I would not do that

00:38:52.080 - 00:39:24.360

anymore so I handed my notice in and decided to take a different course in my life and here I am much later on all those years later and all of all of my learning of that time has influenced the rest of my life and that that philosophy around non-violence that questioning that recognition of the power of the human spirit that sense of us being inter interdependent

00:39:25.220 - 00:39:54.980

but not co-dependent what it means to have healthy relationships what's my view of the world existentialism whatever you know all of that stuff grew out of that time for me and actually laid the foundation for me to want to be a psychotherapist so that led to my working in an industry where I could use my makeup skills in a different way for period dramas or whatever in

00:39:54.980 - 00:40:24.740

television that then led to my that gave me the means to train as a psychotherapist but it's actually what I hold now in my career in my work as a psychotherapist all of that actually all the seeds of that came from that time in the peace movement at Greenham as part of being in a women's group it came from that time and as I say that I feel quite tearful thinking about that that tells

00:40:24.740 - 00:40:52.760

me of the profound effect that it that it had on me and I'm eternally eternally grateful and pleased that I was I was able to be part of something so profoundly important for women and you know when I look at young women in the world today I find myself being very respectful of those young women who are campaigning who are still questioning but also I'm left with immense sadness

00:40:53.480 - 00:41:20.540

that actually you know the work that I feel that I put in around feminism when I was in my 20s isn't being picked up by younger women women are still being exploited in lots of different ways women are still being put down women's voices are still being silenced you know and and I feel sad that there aren't more younger women kind of carrying on the banner really you know my my

00:41:20.540 - 00:41:45.840

legacy was of the suffragettes you know I almost feel their blood in my veins I feel part of that movement and I feel sad sometimes that I don't always have the same sense that it's being carried on now. Thinking about that so I think that's a you know I think I share a lot of those concerns and that's why we're trying to you know pull a lot of these interviews together comes out part

00:41:45.840 - 00:42:06.720

that concern so and I'm interested in two things about that which one of those is a question that we're sort of including in every interview actually so the only question that we're prone to involve in every one which is could you explain so I'll ask you first Annie and then I'll ask you Margaret because I want to lead on to another question with you as well could you explain why

00:42:06.720 - 00:42:32.260

you think it's important that greed is remembered by subsequent generations? Because I think it not only honours what it means to be a woman in the world it represents questioning of ourselves of society of the world in general the personal is the political so that's that's kind of the the centre of it for me and I think as human beings we always need to question that

00:42:32.260 - 00:43:00.560

who am I as a person living in the world what do I contribute how do I impact what do I need how can we build a better world a better future for generations that follow us and I think there's something about women's history that historically has always been forgotten so it feels important to remember this you know and it it reflects my sense of at the time

00:43:00.560 - 00:43:31.760

I want my name I you know it's almost like invisibly written I want my name to appear you know on that list of people that says I do not think nuclear weapons is the right way to go you know so for me it's about that it's being part it's putting my name to this invisible charter in ways that says I was there I witnessed this this is important you know on on some level

00:43:31.760 - 00:43:57.020

I contributed to that that feels important to me because we are we're all responsible in this world for contributing we're all responsible for ourselves and to some extent we're all responsible for other people we we have to make our ourselves accountable we we share this world so that that personal sense is carried on to that political sense does that answer your question

00:43:57.020 - 00:44:22.480

really lovely so I'll just repeat the question um let's see it was why uh do you think it's important that I don't drop the microphone I think it's important that Camino is remembered by subsequent generations if you do well I I really welcome this the chance to talk about it from our personal point of view because um I think it it was um so misrepresented at the time

00:44:22.480 - 00:44:50.260

as being a gaggle of unruly women who shrill lesbians um who were very well in in their boiler suits for heaven's sake what did they look like and so it was just a gaggle who were causing a lot of trouble for and and the fact that then the people in Greenham hated them they didn't some did um so I think they were really misrepresented I think it's really important

00:44:50.980 - 00:45:19.640

that lots of women's voices who are involved in it are heard as to what it meant to them to be part of a huge groundswell of opinion amongst women to say enough this is enough this is obscene shipping in your great big bombs your cruise missiles to Britain so that you can use us as an airstrip to send your bombs off to another country that you would have no control over

00:45:19.640 - 00:45:45.820

because make no mistake make no mistake we Britain didn't have any control over those bombs they were America's bombs and so therefore we were giving up our liberty and freedom to America to choose to bomb the world um and so in our way we were saying no we're not having it we refuse to put up with it so that group of women were highlighting the obscenity

00:45:45.820 - 00:46:18.100

of the whole nuclear industry of weapons and saying no we're not putting up with it we have so many better ways of using our wealth and distributing our money and being nice to each other and so I would never ever want people to forget what an amazing movement it was and the fact that so many different people could come together and rise up and say you know we are

00:46:18.100 - 00:46:43.360

we're really strong and some of our songs were saying how strong we were we're women we won't be moved etc and it felt really really powerful from a point of absolute powerlessness and I would want that message to carry on to women everywhere that joining together into something that you really are passionate about and rising up and just working together and showing the rest of the

00:46:43.360 - 00:47:06.520

world um what's going on is one of the most powerful things you can do and that what what would be the occasion that they would rise up next I don't know but I want them to know that that's what they can do I was going to ask if you ever took your children to Greenham because that's my

00:47:06.520 - 00:47:33.140

early memories and my mum taking me to Greenham and that's how my early memories of you both as well you know come from my childhood and my mum taking me along I wondered if you did no I never took my my children to Greenham and one of the reasons was because they're boys and there was a kind of feeling about this is a women's camp this is a women's demo um and I chose to

00:47:33.140 - 00:47:57.060

respect that and I knew that most people would probably be absolutely fine they were little boys but I did not want to raise any sensitivities about it needlessly and I was lucky enough that I had a husband who was who was going to care for them so I didn't have any child care problems so I didn't take them and I have to say they're furious

00:47:58.880 - 00:48:26.520

as well as adults they are so disappointed that I never took them they would have loved to have gone and seen what these women got up to these women who cooked and went out in the middle of a night and weren't there when they woke up in the morning and because their dad was looking after them or somebody else was looking after them and they actually were quite miffed about it

00:48:27.940 - 00:48:49.480

missed opportunity that's very sweet I was thinking about what you were saying um so you were saying about people the older generation really disapproving of um of what you were doing and I was thinking about the media you were talking about the representation of the media um as being quite negative do you think that

00:48:49.480 - 00:49:16.780

fed do you think there was a relationship between the media's depiction of Greenham and the way that most people who hadn't been thought about Greenham and judged Greenham uh I well I think that that um it was considered shabby you see I think us as women and our behavior was considered shabby and therefore not to be taken seriously and I you know certainly

00:49:16.780 - 00:49:42.320

for me there was a sense that media the media was judging us because we weren't really kind of living up to the expectations of what a decent woman is we were breaking the rules we were speaking about things that were unspeakable um so what was the expectation as you perceived or you felt it was given to you well for a start well for a start we we were you

00:49:42.320 - 00:50:04.780

know certainly the Greenham women obviously they couldn't have access to you know showers or whatever so they might have been a bit smelly as anybody would be if they'd been you know outside for a few days without having access to water um they were seen as grubby I mean I remember one of my mother's friends actually um when he was ridiculing me about what I was doing

00:50:04.780 - 00:50:32.420

he said and you know what those women he said they've ruined Greenham I said what do you mean he said they're wildlife do you know he said there's no wildlife around Greenham now nothing why because of the women and so that's the huge very nervous exactly but but that's an example of how people made judgments based on nothing you know it was it was there were lots of fantasies

00:50:32.420 - 00:50:58.100

around it um and these women what were they doing why weren't they at work or why weren't they at home looking after their children why weren't they at home looking after their families because that's what women do you know these these women were breaking the rules they were they were being oppositional to to what was judged decent how about you Margaret did you feel that

00:50:58.100 - 00:51:28.400

yes definitely I think we were interfering with men's work this is what men do what do women know about warfare and security so the fact that we'd risen up against and I guess they might have taken it personally I hope so because there were some boring old farts out there um one of my husband's relations he was a civil servant and he used to take me to one side and

00:51:28.400 - 00:51:57.320

warn me that we were being infiltrated the women were being infiltrated by undesirables I said really how awful and whereas to my mind the undesirables who'd infiltrated us with the Americans with their sodding bombs oh sorry I mustn't swear so um you know and it was this their shock that we might be infiltrated by ne'er-do-wells who who might want information

00:51:57.320 - 00:52:24.760

about how they could steal the bombs maybe it's actually hilarious oh well foreigners obviously well people who wanted to the wherewithal to steal the plutonium or uranium or whatever ghastly thing it is that makes these bombs um terrorists basically who were going to be amongst us so that when we broke in they could break in and steal the bomb or something

00:52:24.760 - 00:52:55.720

I mean it was absolutely hilarious and and also I was at a um an evening class once and this and I said I was rather tired because I'd spent you know the previous night at Greenham and she says oh my goodness are they all lesbians and the teacher he sort of said how the hell should she know oh my hero yes exactly what what is this so yes there was this huge

00:52:55.720 - 00:53:25.560

amount of misinformation so we all of the women could be discredited because we were lesbians we'd left our families to fend for themselves etc etc so therefore we were the drugs of humanity so yes they had lots of material that they could use against green and women the press of course enjoyed every minute of it in the same way that they do now um with brexit and with muslims and

00:53:25.560 - 00:53:58.240

another outrageous act so yes we we were just a laughingstock to a great extent um but the fact we won kind of trumps it I think that that notion that we didn't know what we were talking about was was um was very strong you know and and actually for me I was holding a philosophical position and because I didn't have access to all the facts in the way that the government or

00:53:58.240 - 00:54:25.860

the military might have information it was as if the information that I had about you know the world and human relationships and what we want in our world from a philosophical position it was as if that didn't count and but I think you know I don't feel anti-military I think that even then I didn't feel anti-military I felt the people who were in the military were people of

00:54:25.860 - 00:54:51.740

honor they they were holding those roles because they did care about people and their country and I actually felt angry on their behalf because I felt they were having to defend something that was morally wrong and they had no power in that so um but I think that historically that's always happened and it's still happening now you know women's opinions about things are still being

00:54:51.740 - 00:55:15.700

devalued we still live in a world where women's voices aren't being heard in the boardroom where you know you only have to think about the me too movement it highlights what women have have had to put up with throughout their life and you know I think it's still happening that there is still sexism in the world that we live in it's still happening in parliament you know when when

00:55:15.700 - 00:55:40.720

people are reported when the media reports on something they still talk about a woman's age or what she's wearing when do they ever do that with a man they they come at it from a different angle it's still happening it's still happening yeah I was looking at a newspaper today all the political comment the whole like page spread of political comment on Brexit was all by men a single female

00:55:40.720 - 00:56:03.700

journalist has been given that work yeah I was really struck by that being ongoing yeah absolutely did you ever have any relationships or conversations or anything that struck you with them at the base while you were there for a night watch or uh I I didn't I I remember the first night I was there and I because I'd never been and it was dark by the time we got there

00:56:04.720 - 00:56:31.460

and so I thought well I'll just go along and see what the fence is like so I walked along the fence and I was just sort of walking along I suddenly realized to my horror that was a guy inside shadowing me with his rifle because I was and I thought well at first I was quite frightened so I sort of scuttled back to our crowd and then I thought this is laughable this this poor chap

00:56:32.180 - 00:56:55.280

he's reduced to stalking this middle-aged woman you know because I might be a threat to him and his bonds um so there was that I remember one time when we were there and we we did get chatting I can't quite remember how it happened but the guys inside they were new

00:56:55.280 - 00:57:19.680

to their duty the military police or whichever troops they were that were guarding the base and um it was a date at one of the weekends I think when we went on a demo there and they'd come from Ireland and they were Irish soldiers for heaven's sake which seemed really bizarre in the circumstances that we had Ireland going on and we had Greenham going on and Irish soldiers

00:57:19.680 - 00:57:47.640

were over here and they were homesick so we sang Danny Boy to them and it felt like quite a moment at the time because yeah they were just doing their job the bigger question to me at the time was why would somebody choose to do that job I guess I wondered what kind of 18 year old young man would want to join an association that trained you to kill people

00:57:49.660 - 00:58:15.000

yeah so that seems to me a bizarre thing to want to be in the same way I wonder why people young people want to become police women and men because a bit of you know it smacks of being a bit scared of anything other other than law and order and complete control so yeah how did they receive the Danny Boy today oh they were they thought it was really sweet

00:58:16.240 - 00:58:35.060

oh yes they were they thought it was very sweet do you know that they had to change the they had to wrote to them every six weeks according to the women I was writing to because the soldiers would become sympathetic to the green women because they would do that excellent they learned they had to move them on actually yeah fairly fast yeah well I remember

00:58:35.060 - 00:59:06.760

hearing stories I remember hearing stories about men who um who who were sympathetic to what we were doing and um I think I heard stories of people leaving the army or being moved on or whatever so I mean how can it not affect people did song play a big part in your memories of Greenham god yes yeah yeah yeah do you want to

00:59:06.760 - 00:59:35.420

tell us a little bit about that uh well from my memories are that it could be both joyous but also very moving so I mean song is it is an immensely powerful way of uniting people and giving them a to express themselves being part of the whole um so I learned some good songs I learned some variations on songs I mean it was quite a creative place you know there was one particular gate that

00:59:35.420 - 01:00:00.960

was all about you know arts and crafts as it were um and I remember a lot of drum playing and singing going on and people used to take instruments so yeah I mean it was it it on occasions had a bit of a festival spirit there was a sense of celebration around it it wasn't all it certainly for me my experience was that it wasn't all about being angry about um the

01:00:00.960 - 01:00:29.760

government and what they were doing it was also a place of celebration um and celebrating life and yeah singing was an important part of that because it rouses the spirit doesn't it it gets people going it gets people on side we all feel like we're literally singing from the same page yeah yeah my son was at school they were doing Frère Jacques um and the teacher said there

01:00:29.760 - 01:00:59.340

are lots of different versions of Frère Jacques does anybody else know any different versions and five-year-old Nick and he said yes I know one is we are women we are women we are strong we are strong we say no we say no to the bomb to the bomb and his teacher who was six foot in her jackboots from South Africa lovely lovely woman and she just said um I'm not surprised

01:01:04.400 - 01:01:35.580

but we had lots of songs I don't know if I can remember them something about you can't kill the spirit you can't kill the spirit she is like a mountain old and strong she goes on and on and on you can kill the spirit and that would just go on and around and people would kind of join in but you know that's that's all part of the tradition isn't it of the protest movement

01:01:35.580 - 01:01:56.920

throughout history that's how you know that's been part of protest hasn't it that singing has been part of protest yeah and that happened at Greenham I've got photographs of that too and we'll move on to the photographs in a moment that'd be really nice but I just want to before we do that ask about any individual actions that you remember whether you took part in anything

01:01:56.920 - 01:02:17.240

particularly whether you ever arrested or any things that sort of pop out around what you actually what we're going to Greenham actually did when we say actions when we say NVDA what what are the things you might have been personally involved in the first thing that I think of is it wasn't at Greenham because you know it continued outside of Greenham um what I mentioned earlier

01:02:17.240 - 01:02:41.380

about chaining myself to uh to the railings and I remember um the local press came and they took some photographs and afterwards they said oh it's okay you can let yourself go now you know we've got the photo no we are chained this is a demonstration this is for real we have chained ourselves with this isn't just about the picture so I remember sitting there you know being there

01:02:41.380 - 01:03:04.940

quite uncomfortable for the rest of the afternoon chained up what were people's reactions to not just the press book well it was interesting a lot of people could be sympathetic you know they'd be cheering us on or they'd be laughing at us or there would be men driving past shouting obscenities out the window very mixed result um we we I certainly don't remember feeling in any physical

01:03:04.940 - 01:03:32.120

danger but I but I think the fact that we were wearing um kind of costume Victorian costume it might have been on International Women's Day or something it you know it was a spectacle I guess just gonna calm my snoring dog there in the middle of your empowering story finally bored him he's heavily asleep but the other the other actions that you know were

01:03:32.120 - 01:03:59.620

were very prominent were being out in Calverley town centre you know leafleting doing all the kind of groundwork that that happens in any sort of movement that's that's about wanting to raise people's awareness about stuff personally I wasn't um I was never arrested I was never in threat of but also I was one of those people who was very aware that if I if I was in that position

01:03:59.620 - 01:04:24.680

you know it would be very difficult for me to uh to be in because of what was you know what what was happening in the rest of my life so um I didn't take risks I suppose as some women might have done I had to do what I could I had to do what I can but I can remember you know blockading um somewhere I can't remember where it was we were blockading and literally

01:04:24.680 - 01:04:49.740

sitting on the floor arm in arm we weren't going anywhere and the police kept trying to to move us and they would peel people away from the edges and they'd go away but then they would come back at a different part of it so we would be we would be like rows of people sitting on the floor arm in arm you know in non-violent direct action and putting things on the fence and singing

01:04:49.740 - 01:05:16.060

and when and when you say non-violent direct action in that blockade does that mean you behave physically in a very specific way yeah we were yeah we were sitting on the ground um kind of cross-legged linked arms so it was difficult to separate us and we weren't going anywhere so you know however many times we were told to move we weren't going anywhere so if if

01:05:16.060 - 01:05:40.380

the police peeled people off from the edges they would get replaced you know in the line behind kind of thing and when they carried continual process did you have a way of was there something about being did they did you how did you did you how did you move when they tried to move you well i mean it people did it individually in terms of um if you like the the spirit of NVDA it it is

01:05:40.380 - 01:06:12.720

about showing no resistance it is about uh being a dead weight it is about kind of being dragged along the floor or you know in other words not doing anything that that represented violent action it was about uh the power of non-violence you know it was um it's about holding the presence and saying no excellent thank you and my point is sort of any memories of actions or demos or

01:06:12.720 - 01:06:35.380

anything that you oh lots and lots of memories but nothing that i did specifically because i again like annie i wasn't in a position to get arrested because my husband would have been furious um and it was walking a bit of a tightrope at that time anyway about how much support i was going to get on this so um no i didn't want to get arrested but we were really there to

01:06:35.380 - 01:07:02.120

support people who either had been arrested um or just to support the women to live there um so no it there was no heroism wasn't a hero i think the nearest i got to being arrested was once when we were driving away from a demo and realized that there was a woman up a tree inside the fence with policemen all around

01:07:02.120 - 01:07:25.180

her underneath and i went out and and got the camera and i was taking photographs of her and she told me she was sheila and she was from scumthorpe and that she she couldn't get down the tree because she was a bit dizzy and the policemen were trying to get her down and then suddenly i realized the policemen had run outside and they were chasing me and i just sort of ran

01:07:25.180 - 01:07:49.400

up this bank and jumped into the car and drove off so that was a bit of a shaky moment because i thought what are they going to do they're going to impound my camera so i can't have a photograph of sheila from scumthorpe up a tree um so that was about as exciting as it got for me i think it was just a question of just being there as much as we could and just doing quietly doing the bit

01:07:50.060 - 01:08:11.740

singing as loudly as we liked um and being as noisy as we liked but just persistently being there and not ever going away great should we have is there anything that you expect me to ask i haven't asked just that you or that you liked me to have asked i haven't asked

01:08:12.260 - 01:08:31.400

no not right great should i come around that side and have a look at some photos yeah sure that'd be really nice yeah so we've got because it's getting a little good would we be better here yeah nice idea i think you'll be fine it's fine if we if you talk me through some of this

01:08:34.180 - 01:08:54.820

we've got a green room situation right here where we were working in one room and my partner my male partner is cooking the lunch in the other room i'm quite right which which brings it all back exactly it just feels right honoring it does it really does so what have we got on the first so you've got uh well this is the very first demo i

01:08:54.820 - 01:09:23.960

went on and there's my son in his chair well one and a bit um so yes this is a press photograph because we were able to get the press photographs from them um and so i tended to just tie it up with what we were doing really and i i noticed there margaret you've you've uh above the date of 29th of february 1984 you've described it as a civil defense demo which is interesting

01:09:24.500 - 01:09:49.640

because actually yeah it was it was but it was a different kind of civil defense it was probably i can't remember i can't remember what it says now but it's um what we were actually complaining about because it would have been a specific cause and it might have been a civil defense demo i can't remember i love some of the you're all carrying banners in this press photo

01:09:50.360 - 01:10:13.860

and there so it's funded by the ratepayers the chief planning officer question mark whose bunker is it anyway it was the bunker underneath the civic center they were building this is a the fence that of the building site that they were building the new civic center and the tories were proud the fact that there was going to be a bunker underneath which we

01:10:13.860 - 01:10:37.940

thought was hilarious considering we were so near camberley sandhurst aldershot like anyone was going to survive but luckily they did survive it would be those important town councillors it's everyone needed all of whom were men at the time and we wondered whether they'd be looking scouting around looking for some women to take him with them at the time

01:10:37.940 - 01:11:05.880

so yes that's what it was and uh no children allowed there you go on the pram lovely but we did all sorts of things we went to oh it was lasham lovely lasham yes it was lovely picnic lovely yes yes i mean what a lovely way to protest to have a picnic a peace picnic it's just i expect you were there yes i expect i was i'm one of those small children aren't i

01:11:05.880 - 01:11:31.480

yes bound to be so that was the sort of thing i took my children to oh okay so what sort of things would this be explain this for people listening this is slightly different is a these pop-up cameras almost this um lasham was a an air was a an airfield yeah but they they took in bombs i believe i can't remember it was really bizarre

01:11:31.480 - 01:11:58.320

so and you just look for a day would you yeah yes and on this occasion and we had our own cruise missile with us on the car oh my god you can see a great big model of it and we just took a picnic and we'd sit there and i'm on the one occasion i went um a car was zooming towards us from the base and a guy started taking photographs of us from his car

01:12:00.460 - 01:12:25.360

and and then he came over and told us that it was illegal we had to clear off what have you and we said i don't think so and so we started taking photographs of him and he got really really pissed off and he drove off again we never saw him again how how flimsy his sense of uh well-being absolutely absolutely so it was a bit of a jolly we had a yeah but it was making our

01:12:25.360 - 01:12:51.200

point at the same time yeah and would press sometimes come to these things or other people in the areas that see them sometimes they would yeah it was more things like this we used to have a vigil every year for hiroshima day and we would go and light candles and outside the civic center there was a little pond and we would float our candles in the in the pond there i can see

01:12:51.200 - 01:13:15.700

and we'd all sing stand around and sing um and of course my son was always drawing pictures of us so yes there's some lovely and very young illustrations on these pages yes and i can remember doing the same thing being in my mum's her writing newsletters for cnd and me writing my own version of that covered in peace that's that's reminded me because actually i was

01:13:15.700 - 01:13:41.320

newsletter editor at one point and you were my my assistant weren't you margaret and your parents had this old-fashioned printing machine everything used to come out like a pale purple but it used to be such a mess with loads of ink and you'd have to turn it round like a drum oh my god tight do you absolutely god it used to be and we used to have to type it on these waxed sheets that's it

01:13:41.320 - 01:14:10.380

oh that sounds mad oh it was really but this was us decorating the fence of um of the bunker at the civic center we decided to have a civic civic day and my children decided that they'd like to do some things for it so and i said that they'd like to they'd like to do some pictures for the fence and i can remember that and also um our friend's children too so um another knolls judith

01:14:10.380 - 01:14:39.000

knolls oh yes and her children and so they all got to it and did these pictures and i can remember nick doing this picture and it was supposed to be a line of soldiers um but one of our members looked at it and she said they look like happy surgeons because they're all smiling and they're in this green color um and that night there was a terrible wind uh and because we decorated all

01:14:39.000 - 01:15:02.060

we put all sorts of just like a green and fence yeah so we did it this was our green in camberley and that evening um the wind got up really badly and so my husband was a bit worried about it because he drove past it and he said stuff's really blowing out blowing around so he went back and cleared it up and took all the rubbish whereupon the police stopped him and said what

01:15:02.060 - 01:15:27.100

are you doing he said i'm clearing up the the litter from the fence that's blown off and they one of them went around his car and studded it and kicked the tires what have you while they talked to him they said well did you do this sir and he said well could have done but i'm just clearing up the mess they said well we've had reports of people damaging our fence but you

01:15:27.100 - 01:15:51.160

weren't damaging it anyway were you just pinning those but actually you can see that actually when we were decorating the fence the policeman came because he'd been told he'd had reports of us yeah um these terrible people putting those and their children's pictures up yes how terrifying i know those are children yeah and then of course we had the party so there's a christmas party

01:15:51.160 - 01:16:18.460

there with the santa yes i hope played by a woman but you never know nato war games this is we were protesting against police the police who had to spend the day pretending to incarcerate known agitators and so of course we were known agitators so we went to give ourselves up so we marched into the police station and said here we are we surrender what did they do with

01:16:18.460 - 01:16:39.380

you they were completely bemused denied all knowledge of doing any exercises at all although this was happening over the whole country and the press took a photograph unfortunately we didn't have any um placards and we look like a right motley crew don't we no not at all you look quite delighted with yourselves which i rather like about that picture yes yeah any opportunity

01:16:39.380 - 01:17:02.700

out there so yeah i think stuff happened it's amazing they did this stuff and they didn't and they thought that it was a secret and then you'd have like we know what you're doing basically and they'd like oh no how how'd i know it must be the russian oh this is longmore this is a cruise watch press bus and we were asked to go and meet there you are in your yellow oh is this the banana

01:17:03.420 - 01:17:26.720

well it's not too banana it's lovely oh this is the whole thing as a whole outfit it's quite special yeah we used to hang out at orange gate and green gate did we orange gate is from here this is mostly yeah i'm glad you've you've documented it because i couldn't remember this was did you have that was my favorite which was your favorite orange orange favorite so what

01:17:26.720 - 01:17:51.500

was the time bit about wine and what what made it what made them different gates have different vibes yellow was the main entrance so we were doing the uh they called it alpha beta charlie delta i don't remember yeah we called it yellow orange red and so we were rainbow colors the gates but they were definitely the military had their own yes of course and so it started at

01:17:51.500 - 01:18:15.800

yellow and then it went around to orange and that was kind of around a corner which had quite a lot of space around it so we used to go there a lot and why was orange your favorite was so there's something laid back about it i think that's where the creche was as well so the children um so that were brought there there was a creche there uh on on the demo days yeah green was very

01:18:15.800 - 01:18:51.360

musical red was quite um militant shall we say so there were different kinds of vibes and places you might fit well it just places where you just felt more you somehow i don't know that's lovely so yeah do you remember i know i don't i don't um i don't remember that too much but um yeah i think partly it was because because it was it felt circular it i didn't quite it's a

01:18:51.360 - 01:19:17.700

bit like the hands on a clock you know or the the symbols on a clock i just knew i was around greenham i didn't necessarily know where i where i was actually sounds like it was a little bit together yeah wonderful this is this is where people would decorate the fence and it's and these are life-size so they actually look like life-size people and that's reminded me

01:19:17.700 - 01:19:41.260

there was one really really big demo called embrace the base that was really powerful because we we literally were standing next to each other all the way around the base and we did embrace and it's nine miles around it was surrounded by women and you know i mean just just that sense of everybody coming really yeah people from all over the world it wasn't just

01:19:41.260 - 01:20:06.100

this country wow really there was a big quaker presence there the quaker women were absolutely gorgeous yeah and they were just so peaceful and so gentle and that they were a real big presence there yeah i'd forgotten about that actually that was really important to me that was the first time i'd met quakers and in fact years later when i went on to to get married i got married in a

01:20:06.100 - 01:20:31.200

quaker church and you know my discovery of the quakers was at greenham was part of the the peace movement because the the thing about quakers they seem to they live what they believe for them the political is the personal and they quietly just get on with stuff i meant to say actually um you were you were talking earlier about um you didn't we didn't get to because we had the problem with

01:20:31.200 - 01:20:50.680

the batteries you didn't get to finish your story about why you'd voted conservative and i just wondered how greenham had influenced both of your lives politically i suppose do you still take an active political role so i wanted you to finish your story about you were saying that you voted conservative because you wanted to get a feminist statement to vote for margaret thatcher because

01:20:50.680 - 01:21:17.940

she was a woman is that is that right yeah i i feel i've kind of answered that along the way probably in that um what i what i learned as being part of greenham and and the women's movement generally is that it's it's not about that and i would never and have never voted conservative again no do you feel it's changed your politics in any other like do you is it

01:21:18.660 - 01:21:48.040

or was it was that part of a general sense of how you operate now as just part of well for me yeah my left-wing politics definitely grew out of my experience of of greenham and radical feminism absolutely absolutely well i'm slightly different in that i i don't i'm not left wing i'm i'm radical i'm a liberal democrat and i have been for many years

01:21:48.040 - 01:22:16.200

and i was before i came to camberley and and joined camberley cnd and to me it seemed the sanest choice at the time because neither the conservatives nor labour actually did anything to get rid of the bombs they never actually decelerated them they just kept on going with the nuclear option so i couldn't trust either of them to to actually represent me

01:22:16.200 - 01:22:45.500

in something that was really important to me and so one of the reasons i became a liberal and then a liberal democrat was because they were the one party that actually said no bombs no nuclear um and they were absolutely clear about it and they still are so and then i found that a lot of everything else their principles their basic beliefs i agree with them so it's very much

01:22:45.500 - 01:23:10.920

to do with freedom inequality sort of started yours solidified a place you're already in yes for you greenham changed oh it's yeah absolutely i went from from one end to the other yeah yeah thank you so much this has been absolutely lovely i know that uh we probably want to eat our most dinner now so i'll call it in but thank you so so much and that's um

01:23:10.920 - 01:23:23.280

thank you it's a pleasure it was lovely to talk about it wasn't it yeah i can't remember the last time we've had a chance to actually talk about it or we can have a bad quiet to look at this the side